Portugal has very HIGH taxes... don't know why I just realized it.

Pt...37% but it is reduced by each bill you pay throuout the year if you get your Nifnumber on the bills while buying.. so if you buy gasoline for 3000 a year, food 6000 a year...that will be reduced already..but you need the Nifnumber on it.

You don t pay annual tax if you earn less then 10.000, which is fair.

    I was dreaming of eventually moving back to Hungary but now that they killed DTT (starting in 2024 https://www.mondaq.com/withholding-tax/ … nsequences). I will not be able to afford to! Because I cannot afford to be DOUBLED taxed by two countries!!!
I was also looking into northern Portugal (to live a frugal life in the country side)... but I just saw this video which has crushed my dreams:

https://youtu.be/YpCWUxQUpO4?si=ZuttuC7y1s83O9N4

1.Stupid question: I have Swedish/Hungarian citizenship and of course US as well unfortunately (I cannot renounce US citizenship. I cannot afford to!). Since I am am an EU citizen, does this mean I am still considered a "foreigner" if I move to Portugal? I assume I would be because I would not yet be Portugal citizen?
https://youtu.be/YpCWUxQUpO4?si=Z3Nwbo74RcW9UuRQ

2.Are only EXPATS charged this high tax rate or are also Portuguese citizens? Google states "progressive marginal tax rates from 14.5% to 48% for 2023" for Portugal residents, so I guess that answers my question. Portugal has very high taxes. So if a retiree is living off his pension or retirement portfolio, instead of being taxed 10% (since NHR has been cancelled) they will be taxed up to 48%! I cannot afford that! It appears that a lot of Portuguese people complain how high their taxes are considering how little money they make. For example if you make $30,000 (then you will be taxed 37%... that is INSANE!!!). And how on earth was the NHR fair? Tax Portuguese citizens to DEATH and let EXPATS get away with only 10%. Ridiculous. I cannot stand governments.

My dreams of moving to Hungary to Portugal are not looking good. I do not even know where to look anymore. Now I am looking at this: https://youtu.be/i4y2E6F4O20?si=1K91vE74UHuRGMf2

PS: It appears people who were granted NHR 10% tax rate in Portugal... will keep it FORVEVER? Grandfathered in?
   

    -@juliet1980

1. I suggest you go and find out about your Swedish status because if you are classed as  Swedish/EU you may live/work here the same as the Portuguese.

     I suggest you go and find out about your Hungarian status because if you are classed as

        Hungarian/EU you may live/work here the same as the Portuguese.

        2     I suggest you discuss and get advice about your particular finance issues with a suitable accountant or financial advisor  rather than your present youtube financial advisor(s).

         If you state some facts then ask a straigntforward question then you'll probably get some helpful answers.  If you rant about a country and its population you'll probably not get helpful answers.

Have a nice day.

ALL tax is theft.

If you believe in taxation then you are subservient and accept that The State knows how to spend your own money - and more efficiently then you know yourself.

Who cut your hair, The Council or local administration?

If you won't allow The State to do something so innocuous as cutting your hair, then why fund it to have a monopoly on your healthcare etc?

There is a reason why Governments cannot build aeroplanes, cars, fire extinguishers, parachutes etc.

But what about the poor and needy?

" Nobody will stop you giving your own money to the poor,"  - Ayn Rand

You don't need the government to take then do it for you, nor need them to take their cut to administer it ,inefficiently, on your behalf.

Just give - but don't Virtue Signal, please

BTW.  NHR is a 10 year maximum benefit, it is not extendable so it isn't forever.

    Pt...37% but it is reduced by each bill you pay throuout the year if you get your Nifnumber on the bills while buying.. so if you buy gasoline for 3000 a year, food 6000 a year...that will be reduced already..but you need the Nifnumber on it.

You can see how much, on the Finanças site under "e-Fatura".   I maxed out on "Despesas Gerais Familiares" early in the year, so €250 there, and €8.25 under "Saúde".  If I don't rack up any further receipts outside of the general category pretty soon, my exemption for the year will be €258.25.

    ALL tax is theft.If you believe in taxation then you are subservient and accept that The State knows how to spend your own money - and more efficiently then you know yourself.Who cut your hair, The Council or local administration?  If you won't allow The State to do something so innocuous as cutting your hair, then why fund it to have a monopoly on your healthcare etc?There is a reason why Governments cannot build aeroplanes, cars, fire extinguishers, parachutes etc.But what about the poor and needy?" Nobody will stop you giving your own money to the poor,"  - Ayn RandYou don't need the government to take then do it for you, nor need them to take their cut to administer it ,inefficiently, on your behalf.Just give - but don't Virtue Signal, please BTW.  NHR is a 10 year maximum benefit, it is not extendable so it isn't forever.        -@slugsurmamates

If we didn't pay some form of taxes we would be living in a s*** hole.

@SimCityAT

Very subservient.

@slugsurmamates,

There has to be a middle way between the extremes of communism and ultra-liberalism. We all know that the state is inefficient and often spends our money badly. But taxes are used for security issues, public health and public education. If human beings are potentially selfish, easily carried away by their ego, who would help the poorest? In general, the more a person has, the less generous he or she is.

I suggest that Argentina would be a good place for you. It seems that last Sunday's election winners want to privatise everything, including rivers....

Yes.  I have high hopes for Argentina if the Liberal-West doesn't strangle it at birth.

I agree that Government has a place - but it would be strictly limited to Security (police and defence, internal and external) and, possibly very limited public health (food oversight).

These would depend upon funding - perhaps voluntary in way of National Lottery or a small levy on Business Contracts which The State generally protects via general taxation at present.

If others with to donate to the State to alleviate poverty, a libertarian society would be comfortable with that arrangement.

Some may ask,but what about Health?

Eg. A quick check of UK Government revenue and expenditure will confirm that total annual income tax take is roughly equal to the annual cost of the "free" NHS   Just an example, but how much expensive healthcare or health insurance could the average worker afford if they had to pay zero income tax during their lifetime? 

It's all relative. 👍

    ALL tax is theft.
If you believe in taxation then you are subservient and accept that The State knows how to spend your own money - and more efficiently then you know yourself.

Who cut your hair, The Council or local administration?

If you won't allow The State to do something so innocuous as cutting your hair, then why fund it to have a monopoly on your healthcare etc?

There is a reason why Governments cannot build aeroplanes, cars, fire extinguishers, parachutes etc.

But what about the poor and needy?
" Nobody will stop you giving your own money to the poor,"  - Ayn Rand

You don't need the government to take then do it for you, nor need them to take their cut to administer it ,inefficiently, on your behalf.
Just give - but don't Virtue Signal, please


BTW.  NHR is a 10 year maximum benefit, it is not extendable so it isn't forever.
   

    -@slugsurmamates

I agree!!

Sadly, no significant opportunity will ever exist anywhere to experience the full reality of the libertarian dream.  Argentina isn't going to change that, and not because the Liberal-West cares.  Portugal sure isn't a good place to look for it.

    Yes.  I have high hopes for Argentina if the Liberal-West doesn't strangle it at birth.
I agree that Government has a place - but it would be strictly limited to Security (police and defence, internal and external) and, possibly very limited public health (food oversight).

    -@slugsurmamates

Sounds like a police state where the people with money have all the rights and everybody else has the bare minimum to survive and support the rich. Roads only to places where the rich have built them for their own use. Hospitals and schools only to the level that it is good for those with money. Tbh, I think this system would end quite quickly with the rich and influencial hanging from trees.

@SimCityAT"If we didn't pay some form of taxes we would be living in a shit hole."

Not necessarily. Monaco is the best example that comes to mind. Would you call it a shithole?... There are other examples too that can counter your statement.

@ctomac

Many countries in Europe consider Monoco's "loop holes" as  tax evasion and try to impede it. French nationals residing in Monaco are subject to French income taxes, unless they became residents of Monaco before 1957.

@ctomac

Singapore.

Hong Kong

Indeed, almost all minimum tax nations (even those without any natural resources) can prosper with little taxation whatsoever..

S*** holes tend to have very high government taxation, conversely.

When I was much younger, the three most wealthy nations on the planet were USA, Japan, and Sweden.

Taxation take stifles growth and opportunity.

That's not to say that a (significant?) section of the populations aren't led by altruism, collectivism, or just plain virtue signalling in the sad belief that high taxation and wealth distribution benefits the poor.

Just ask the 1.3 billion of Chinese that have now exited starvation.

@TGCampo

Your home is definitely the Portuguese State. 👍

    @ctomac
Many countries in Europe consider Monoco's "loop holes" as  tax evasion and try to impede it. French nationals residing in Monaco are subject to French income taxes, unless they became residents of Monaco before 1957.
   

    -@Strontium

That was not my point though. My point was that the fact that a country does not charge income taxes does not necessarily qualify it as a "shithole" country. Sometimes it's quite the opposite.

        @ctomac Many countries in Europe consider Monoco's "loop holes" as  tax evasion and try to impede it. French nationals residing in Monaco are subject to French income taxes, unless they became residents of Monaco before 1957.        -@Strontium

That was not my point though. My point was that the fact that a country does not charge income taxes does not necessarily qualify it as a "shithole" country. Sometimes it's quite the opposite.
   

    -@ctomac

But money has to come from somewhere. Isle of Man, Channel Island also has no tax but they has rich people. The islands are very well off.

In all, there has to be some kind of tax like or not, its a fact!

    @ctomac
Singapore.
Hong Kong

-@slugsurmamates

Monaco

Lichtenstein

All those mini-nations for which this might work, because they provide the right conditions for those that are already rich. Otherwise, taxes are necessary, even in Dubai these days, where VAT exists.

@donn25 in regards to the NIF, exactly this , most of common bills go all into one category so max reduction 250€ which is nothing compared to all the high taxes. also just on a side note,  i recently went to the UK and compared fesh full fat milk and butter and parma ham, all was cheaper than in Portugal. prices are out of hand comparing the salaries we have here.

@oliver,

These kinds of partial comparisons don't make any sense. Even numbeo isn't 100% correct, it's a sample, like many others...

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c … ed+Kingdom

    @donn25 in regards to the NIF, exactly this , most of common bills go all into one category so max reduction 250€ which is nothing compared to all the high taxes. also just on a side note,  i recently went to the UK and compared fesh full fat milk and butter and parma ham, all was cheaper than in Portugal. prices are out of hand comparing the salaries we have here.
   

    -@Oliver501

Nothing to do with the UK/Ireland have a dairy industry, dairy farms, fresh milk available almost everywhere whrere as Portugal has few dairy farms, almost no fresh milk and very little pasture land?   Now do an olive oil and wine price comparison.

2.Are only EXPATS charged this high tax rate or are also Portuguese citizens? Google states "progressive marginal tax rates from 14.5% to 48% for 2023" for Portugal residents, so I guess that answers my question. Portugal has very high taxes. So if a retiree is living off his pension or retirement portfolio, instead of being taxed 10% (since NHR has been cancelled) they will be taxed up to 48%! I cannot afford that! It appears that a lot of Portuguese people complain how high their taxes are considering how little money they make. For example if you make $30,000 (then you will be taxed 37%... that is INSANE!!!). And how on earth was the NHR fair? Tax Portuguese citizens to DEATH and let EXPATS get away with only 10%. Ridiculous. I cannot stand governments.

The tax for an individual taxpayer for 2024 based on us$30,000 will be around €5500 or so -  not quite 37%. No clue how you get 37% average - the 37% is only for the incomes in that range (these tables have been adjusted for 2024).

The 48% will only apply for incomes in excess of €80K -  it is not the average, and most retirees do not earn pensions at this level. Dividends, interest and rental income will be taxed at maximum 28%.

The is no tax descrimination between citizens and non citizens -  they are classified as taxpayers (though some recent immigrants do get some tax breaks where the longtime residents do not)

@SimCityAT

Tax:  Where do you draw the limit, though?

Why should anyone rely on proven inefficient governments to fund what they wish where the citizens have no real power to stop them?

My view is that only Security (Military and Policing) with, perhaps, food and water security could be added.

Most governments, it is calculated, could provide that with 5% income tax.

And yet, we fund NetZero via an EU, UN, WHO etc that deliver nothing to the vast majority and who do a major disservice to the people.

Time to starve these charlatans of every penny/cent/escudo you are able to.

@slugsurmamates

With the exception if you are a US citizen, these levels can be achieved - look for residence in places such as Paraguay where only remitted income is taxed and some other countries. With some research you can get there, and then it is a matter of applying for residence and buying an airticked

Thank you, and you are absolutely correct in your advice.  No need for me to search any further as I have already secured Residency elsewhere , with 0% income taxation , and a relatively low 6% tax (VAT equivalent 20-28% in UK/Portugal).

In addition, the terms are for 10 years, and renewable.

Unlike Portugal, I have no requirement to present an annual tax return, the 10 year period is renewable, unlike the NHR, further, there is only a one day requirement to be in country within any 12 month period (versus 184 days in Portugal).

The cost of this Visa was roughly 1300-1400 Euro.

Portugal has just priced itself out of the market.

Great. Perhaps the unpredictability of life will change our tax-free plans. When age and health make us think twice... and we have nothing left but the tax savings... Which will end up being left to others...

It all ends like that, doesn't it?

Perhaps, yes .

Yet if you use the tax savings to fund your lifestyle, your health is adequately covered, you have a safetynet and others are adequately catered for, or perhaps non existent, and where you have a commitment not to fund any entity (eg a government) which treats you as a worker drone to squander the fruits if your labour .😄👍

After years I sort of find Portugese (in the semi rural middle) are family/community centric and not obsessed with money unlike a shouty section of the expat community - i'm sure you've heard expats moaning "Back home in the States etc. - dollars -  blaaa - intrest rates - relators -  blaaaa -  legal system - weak beer -  gear stick - blaaa - drive by shootings - Private medical insurance  "  etc.  Basically, for me,  if someone doesn't like Portugal and the Portuguese (in their many forms) then why stay/live here when they can go elsewhere and take their constant moaning with them.

  Basically, for me,  if someone doesn't like Portugal and the Portuguese (in their many forms) then why stay/live here when they can go elsewhere and take their constant moaning with them.
   

    -@Strontium

Exactly, that goes with any country.

In Austria, I've paid high taxes, but in return, we get cheap reliable public transport, an excellent health service with hardly any waiting lists. So do I moan, no because I look at the state the UK is in, I know where I would rather be.

@Strontium

Bang on!

Go Forth, Johnny Foreigner, not welcome here 🤣🤣

    @StrontiumBang on!Go Forth, Johnny Foreigner, not welcome here 🤣🤣        -@slugsurmamates

Johnny Foreigner. Jeeez typical comment from an *** expecting everyone to comply to your forms. Next you will moan you can't access UK TV cos you don't get channels working. Quit moaning. You really have no idea how the other world lives, you like or you lump it. Choice is yours.

I know plenty of people from around the world living in Portugal and have no issues. So why is it an different to you?

    @Strontium
Bang on!
Go Forth, Johnny Foreigner, not welcome here 🤣🤣
   

    -@slugsurmamates

You seem to misunderstand - a while ago I was driving an UK car near Coimbra and stopped in a quiet country lane to adjust SayNav, an car stopped behind and driver walked over but stopped when he saw me sitting on the wrong side of car and waved to his young girl passenger who got out and walked over and asked in perfest English if I and the car was OK ? I said yes all was good, the girl then said "Green Day" so I turned up the volume as "Wake Me Up When September Ends" played. I got out and we "threw some shapes " in the road. An other car approached and slowed and the driver of the first car  just said "English" to them whereby they laughed and drove off.

If you really don't know or like Portugal or the Portugese then you probably should go elsewhere.

If you really don't know or like Portugal or the Portugese then you probably should go elsewhere.

-@Strontium

Don't bother with them.

Nice conversation and definitely food for thought (I think). I also think that governments should be doing their utmost to improve the life of the residents in their country. So before funding military operations in far away countries or allowing lots of pennyless migrants into the country, they should make sure that their legal residents can find affordable housing, healthcare and education. I forgot to mention the judicary system, which seems to be in dire straits as well.

None of this so far personally bothers me, but I might think differently if I had a legal matter to resolve or couldn't afford the healthcare.