Consequences of Trump as US President.

I see the US as dangerous because of its history - However, that doesn't bother me as far as buying products goes.

Price against value/quality does, and western products simply can't beat Chinese products.

Add that the US/EU/UK doesn't make much I want or need, and that strikes them off the list for me.

I'm back to that documentary about how Chinese manufacturers look at competition as something to beat using innovation, not lawyers.

That's why the west is failing.

@Lotus Eater Wow now we are down to insults! Pretty typical for Libs when they run out of substance! - @Morgacj200424

For a moment there Morg I thought you had gone into a sulk. Glad you're OK.

Donald Trump will be President of the United States after his inauguration next January. This is the guy who encouraged his top health officials to study the injection of bleach into the human body as a remedy for fighting covid.

Any individual who gives their vote to a guy having made the above statement, who will soon have his impetuous, impulsive finger on the red button is, in my view, low on IQ.

Of course if you disagree then I withdraw what I said. If you don't then ,ahem, why did you vote for him?

This is the guy who encouraged his top health officials to study the injection of bleach into the human body as a remedy for fighting covid.
Any individual who gives their vote to a guy having made the above statement, who will soon have his impetuous, impulsive finger on the red button is, in my view, low on IQ.
Of course if you disagree then I withdraw what I said. If you don't then ,ahem, why did you vote for him? - @Lotus Eater

I disagree. I know a lot of amazing stupid people with degrees.

IQ and common sense are commonly mutually exclusive.

@Larry Fisher

Your lack of education is showing. Do

Larry, you really ought not to shoot from the hip. You have no idea how much education I may have but, sure, we can compare credentials if education level is so important to you. Failing that, I don't care to discuss your position on tariff-free trade anymore because I don't care to be dissed. Have a good one. Cheers.

@Larry Fisher

Your lack of education is showing. Do

Duplicate comment. Admin pls remove.

This is the guy who encouraged his top health officials to study the injection of bleach into the human body as a remedy for fighting covid.
Any individual who gives their vote to a guy having made the above statement, who will soon have his impetuous, impulsive finger on the red button is, in my view, low on IQ.
Of course if you disagree then I withdraw what I said. If you don't then ,ahem, why did you vote for him?  - @Lotus Eater
I disagree. I know a lot of amazing stupid people with degrees.
IQ and common sense are commonly mutually exclusive. - @Fred

Do you disagree that you are splitting hairs to a degree?

This is the guy who encouraged his top health officials to study the injection of bleach into the human body as a remedy for fighting covid.
Any individual who gives their vote to a guy having made the above statement, who will soon have his impetuous, impulsive finger on the red button is, in my view, low on IQ.
Of course if you disagree then I withdraw what I said. If you don't then ,ahem, why did you vote for him? - @Lotus Eater
I disagree. I know a lot of amazing stupid people with degrees.
IQ and common sense are commonly mutually exclusive. - @Fred
Do you disagree that you are splitting hairs to a degree?
- @Lotus Eater

That would depend on the degree of accuracy, or perhaps anal retention

Whatever your personal feelings about Trump, we have history to look back on.

He caused utter chaos, committed crimes (Convicted), and tried to stop the new president being confirmed.

We don't know what's next for the world, but he's very likely to annoy a lot of people into moving away from the US sphere of influence.

France and Germany are the two European countries to keep an eye on - there's a good chance they will be the first to move towards China.

Germany and China are big trade partners, and France has expressed a serious interest in BRICS. TotalEnergies has already sold LNG to China using Yuan rather than Dollars.

Once one or two EU countries break the mold, the rest will wait to see Trump's reaction. If he over-reacts, the others might just get worried enough to dump their Dollar holdings quickly.

Only time will tell, but I believe there's a fair chance.

@Fred
Before the math, let me give a little TRUE story about a particular Tariff that actually was extremely beneficial. I will not have the years correct, as I'm not looking it up. I'm going by memory because I was so closely involved in the industry. And my numbers won't be exactly accurate, but they will in fact give you an idea of what happened and the results.

In the early 1970's Japanese motorcycle started arriving in the USA in large numbers. Initially not large displacement motors but that changed. They were making motorcycles in the above 700cc market that out performed and cost less than the last remaining US made motorcycle, Harley-Davidson. To keep it shorter, come about 1982 or 83, Reagan, at the request of HD imposed a 45% tariff on imported motorcycles in the 700cc and up (Heavy) range. HD had lost so much market share, from 100% just 10 years prior in the 1000cc class and up to 10% and the Japanese market had taken over. Sometimes you don't actually want what you're praying for.  - @Larry Fisher

True?
You forgot the mention the massive mis-management issues that caused many of the problems.

If I may ask a question - Why didn't HD design new bikes that 'out performed and cost less' than the Japanese machines?

That's just lazy, and the reason US manufacturing is falling off a cliff. - @Fred

That's neither here nor there to the question of how tariffs work. It made the Japanese competitors MC's cost more, to LEVEL the playing field. Once the field is LEVEL it's on the company to make the quality equal to be a competitive and/or attractive choice! And guess what, H-D did exactly that. Coming out in 1982 with a totally new frame design, the rubber mounted FXRS, followed up in 1983 as 1984 models the Evolution engine, encapsulated in all new aluminum heads and cylinders rather than cast iron. This stopped the old adage of an oil puddle in every Harley garage.

The Tariffs helped H-D stay afloat as they improved. Eventual retaking the lead in the big bike market share.

I ask you, Fred. How many Japanese or Korean cars have you owned (don't say it's made in Kansas so my Toyota is American) in your life time? You whine about quality while spending your money on the very same products that propped up cheap labor maybe? I, until 2012 never owned a vehicle from 1975 onward that was not one of the big four American brands or Harley Davidson (I lie on the H-D part ...I owned some small ones not in the HD market).

Fred said. . . . My personal income is nothing special - about average for an expat out here - but my personal spend is far lower than most.
I'm not a minimalist as such, but I don't much care about buying all the rubbish I'm told is essential to own if I want to be successful.

My box of a car is 10 years old and looks messy, but it has a little over 70,000 km on the clock and is serviced regularly.

****************************************

As per your messy car, clean it out and get a car wash or wash it yourself. Some time ago you mention your skivvies were 20 years old. You may not be a minimalist, or maybe frugal, thrifty or cheap.

@Larry Fisher
Your lack of education is showing. Do
Larry, you really ought not to shoot from the hip. You have no idea how much education I may have but, sure, we can compare credentials if education level is so important to you. Failing that, I don't care to discuss your position on tariff-free trade anymore because I don't care to be dissed. Have a good one. Cheers. - @danfinn

Ohh, you mean you don't know what libertarian is. Or you're unable to answer the question of "what happens next"?

Where did I actually take a POSITION on tariffs? I did explain where ONE SPECIFIC tariff worked. FORTY YEARS AGO. But I'd love to hear all the great things you think will happen after Trump initiates tariffs as previously mentioned:

1. 10% on all imported products
2. 60% on all imports from China
3. Eliminate personal income taxes.

Now for the reality. Like so many when actually CHALLENGED to defend a position, you'd rather insult and run away, cowering at the idea you might expose yourself for not really knowing the answer to why you took a certain position. I on the other hand, maintain integrity. I willingly defend my "position" and when shown the error in my own ways, accept that humbly also (with admission).

True?You forgot the mention the massive mis-management issues that caused many of the problems.If I may ask a question - Why didn't HD design new bikes that 'out performed and cost less' than the Japanese machines?That's just lazy, and the reason US manufacturing is falling off a cliff. - @Fred That's neither here nor there to the question of how tariffs work. It made the Japanese competitors MC's cost more, to LEVEL the playing field. Once the field is LEVEL it's on the company to make the quality equal to be a competitive and/or attractive choice! And guess what, H-D did exactly that. Coming out in 1982 with a totally new frame design, the rubber mounted FXRS, followed up in 1983 as 1984 models the Evolution engine, encapsulated in all new aluminum heads and cylinders rather than cast iron. This stopped the old adage of an oil puddle in every Harley garage. The Tariffs helped H-D stay afloat as they improved. Eventual retaking the lead in the big bike market share.ey Davidson (I lie on the H-D part ...I owned some small ones not in the HD market). - @Larry Fisher

If they hadn't mismanaged the company to the point of bankruptcy (more than once), and fixed the oil leaks a long time ago, HD bikes would have been desirable.

There would have been no need to punish the competition with extra taxes, and no need to restrict choices for the American people.

Face it, Honda and so on make better bikes. Address that by improving HD's rubbish products and you negate the need to unfairly punish anyone - That includes US consumers who have to pay more because your company was too lazy and stupid to fix its problems.

Tariffs are often justified by claiming foreign governments subsidies reduce costs for overseas manufacturers, thus the competition is cheating.

They neglect to mention the US government did the same for HD.

https://www.advrider.com/would-harley-d … ment-help/

However, HD is still a failed, old fashioned lump of junk company because they are stuck in the past.

Japan had its turn and beat US manufacturing to a pulp because they were better in every way, but its China's turn now.

China is producing products that people want, innovating daily, and keeping prices down.

Trump's reply isn't to push pure capitalism as he should, it's to punish non-American companies that are better capitalists.

In doing so, the US is restricting its population's choices, and forcing them to pay more for inferior, but locally made, products.

The answer is to be better than the rest, but tariffs are far easier ... and you get to blame other people for your laziness and stupidity.

We absolutely don't agree on "better" motorcycles. They are different by design. And the quality is FAR better than you make it out to be. They are not 1977 motorcycles anymore.

NONE of which as f-all to do with how and why the ONE tariff was applied, worked, and rejuvenated a company, keeping jobs and manufacturing in the USA. What happens when USD's are spent on US products? That money stays in circulation WITHIN the USA. That's called building an economy. What happens when USD are spent on foreign products? A portion (even your Kansas city Toyota) leaves the country in the form of profits. Earned here-spent there.

Fred, my friend you're picking on one company (that you obviously hate) that I only used as an example of a properly worked and functioned tariff. Which is FAR from the manner in which Trump wants to impose tariffs today. My point is to show the DIFFERENCE. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the product (HD in this example). We (you and I) probably have the same beliefs in what the result of "Trump Tariffs" would do vs "targeted tariffs" of old. Please don't forget, the Japanese at the time were dumping those MC's at a massively lower cost than HD's to American customers. Some 40 years later, those companies are selling their bikes in the very same price ranges as HD.

But go try to buy a pair of US made Levi's. You can't. However in 1980 there were 63 plants in the USA operated by Levi-Strauss. And in 1981 when I was a merchant marine, I could walk off the ship in Spain and sell a pair of 501's for $80 in a heartbeat, because they were so expensive (due to tariffs there) in a store. Today, more than 40 years later, those jeans sell new for about 80 euros. THINK ABOUT THAT. An entire garment industry lost in the USA to China, Vietnam, etc (TY Nixon, Congress, Reagan). And now we want to implement tariffs to help manufacturers in the USA?

Again, what will the result of those tariffs be? Who will be affected most?

The HD customer base is:

Baby boomers 1946 to 1964 ...... 38 million men 

Generation X 1965-1980...... 33 million men.

They are not 1977 motorcycles anymore.
NONE of which as f-all to do with how and why the ONE tariff was applied, worked, and rejuvenated a company, keeping jobs and manufacturing in the USA. - @Larry Fisher

But a company that still has 1977 thinking.

I agree that taxing better made, cheaper, more reliable products from more efficient companies helped HD, but HD are hardly top of the tree now.

HD are on their way out with year on year sales numbers dropping rapidly.

Trump will probably try to tariff and ban, but do nothing to fix the reasons US manufacturing is in a mess.

The big loser will be the US consumer, as it was with past attempts at stupidity.

@Enzyte Bob, @Fred, Neither of your posts have anything to do with the question I posed. It wasn't about H-D.  It was about an example of a specific targeted tariff vs mass tariffs at industry we don't even have in the USA anymore.

Edit: though I agree with your last sentence Fred.

It will destroy our country if we don't get this debt  down   I for one understand it will cost each of us   Im willing to pay and suffer for our children's sake to get this ship to be righted.   It always has been on the working man's shoulders    At least if it's going to fix the problem , I'm willing to suffer for that   

Mepp7777 said . . . .It will destroy our country if we don't get this debt down I for one understand it will cost each of us Im willing to pay and suffer for our children's sake to get this ship to be righted. It always has been on the working man's shoulders  At least if it's going to fix the problem , I'm willing to suffer for that

***************************************

"For our Children's sake", "Thank you for your service" or "Have a nice day" have become some of the most disingenuous cliche' banter. They sounded really great the first time I've heard them.

When somebody tells me "have a niceday", sometimes mockingly, I tell them have a better one. When people tell you to a nice day, they are being polite, nothing more, maybe telling you to get lost politely.

If you really mean "Thank you for your service" make a cash donation for disabled service people and police officers. A thank you doesn't pay for rehab or put food on their table.

"For the children"s sake",  Are people actually committing themselves 100% all the time with that purpose in mind? are people actually doing meaningful things now, that require sacrifice's.

The real problem is unimpeded population growth, so what are you doing to limit the hordes of grandchildren and great grandchildren linked to you?

My comments are not aimed at Mepp7777.

@Mepp7777

Mepp, how exactly do you think increased tariffs and personal income taxes eliminated will reduce the FEDERAL DEBT? The reality friend is a massive increase in fed debt coupled with massive inflation on almost everything you buy on a regular basis.

The real problem is so many people have no idea how any of this stuff works. You just think it sounds good because someone told you so.

My mind is boggled. Honestly.

@Larry Fisher

how exactly do you think increased tariffs and personal income taxes eliminated will reduce the FEDERAL DEBT?

It has been clear since the JFK administration that tax cuts when done correctly will spur economic growth which itself can increase tax revenues beyond what they were prior to tax cuts. I mentioned this before and you disagree but it is a basic fact of the US economy so I will not let up in saying it. The US economy is not a zero-sum game as you are assuming.

@Larry Fisherhow exactly do you think increased tariffs and personal income taxes eliminated will reduce the FEDERAL DEBT? - @danfinn

You could start with the roughly a billion every year on your bloated military.

That won't really touch the 35 trillion you owe, but spending cuts won't hurt.

Government debt is very similar to family debt - if you keep spending what you don;t have, all you can do is go bankrupt or borrow more.

The latter delays the same outcome, but you get time and it hardly matters if you can't pay 1 trillion or 25 trillion. ... except to your lenders.

Gordon Gekko says inflation is good. Run up 25 Trillion Dollars deficit, pay it off with worthless inflated dollars. Like those south American countries with billion dollar bank notes, if you have a big enough stack you could buy a stick of gum.

Philippines Confident in US Alliance Under Trump .. Envoy Says

By Karen Lema Reuters Nov. 7, 2024, https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-11-07/philippines-confident-in-us-alliance-under-trump-amid-china-tensions-envoy-says

MANILA (Reuters) - The Philippines expects U.S. policy in the Indo-Pacific and support for its treaty ally amid South China Sea tensions to remain steady under Donald Trump, driven by bipartisan resolve in Washington, its ambassador to the U.S. said on Thursday.

Both Democrats and Republicans prioritize countering China’s influence, including in the South China Sea, Jose Manuel Romualdez said, suggesting that military cooperation, economic ties and security commitments with the Philippines will continue.

"It is in their interest that the Indo-Pacific region remains free, peaceful and stable, especially given the economic part of it, with trillions of dollars passing through the South China Sea," Romualdez told Reuters in an interview.

U.S.-Philippine security engagements have deepened under President Joe Biden and Philippine counterpart Ferdinand Marcos Jr, with both leaders keen to counter what they see as China's aggressive actions in the South China Sea and near Taiwan.

Marcos said in a congratulatory message after Trump's victory: "I am hopeful that this unshakeable alliance, tested in war and peace, will be a force of good that will blaze a path of prosperity and amity, in the region, and in both sides of the Pacific."

Under Marcos, the Philippines has increased the number of its bases accessible to U.S. forces to nine from five, some facing the South China Sea, where China has built artificial islands equipped with runways and missile systems.

The U.S. has proposed $128 million for infrastructure improvements at those bases, in addition to a $500 million pledge for the Philippine military and coastguard.

Romualdez expressed confidence that these commitments, including joint U.S.-Philippine maritime exercises that began last year, would continue under Trump.

"We have very strong bipartisan support in the U.S. Congress where the money comes from. Every single one of our friends in the Republican side has signified their concern and strong support for whatever we're doing right now in relation to the challenges we face with China today," Romualdez said.

He suggested potential changes under Trump would be "minimal" and could even be favourable.

During Trump's previous term, the U.S. dispelled any doubts about its defence commitments when then-Secretary of State Mike Pompeo assured Manila in 2019 that Washington would defend its ally if attacked in the South China Sea, reinforcing the 1951 Mutual Defense Treaty.

Beijing claims much of the South China Sea, where about $3 trillion in ship-borne trade passes annually, with the area becoming a flashpoint for Chinese and U.S. tensions around naval operations. There have been recent clashes over territorial claims between China and the Philippines, Vietnam and Indonesia.

Romualdez emphasized Manila's intent to manage disputes peacefully, and "will continue to dialogue with China as long as it's not detrimental to our interests."

"We're not at war," Romualdez said, adding there are many areas the Philippines and China can work with.

(Reporting by Karen Lema; Editing by Raju Gopalakrishnan. 2024 Thomson Reuters.)

--

@Larry Fisher
how exactly do you think increased tariffs and personal income taxes eliminated will reduce the FEDERAL DEBT?
It has been clear since the JFK administration that tax cuts when done correctly will spur economic growth which itself can increase tax revenues beyond what they were prior to tax cuts. I mentioned this before and you disagree but it is a basic fact of the US economy so I will not let up in saying it. The US economy is not a zero-sum game as you are assuming. - @danfinn

OHHH! I get it....you increase tariffs inflation hits 20% or more. This spurs economic growth. Which will increase taxes on the previously EMILINATED personal income tax! You make poyfect sense! Thanks for the education.

Tariffs are like V.A.T. Wait till the new administration gets in. Give them a chance to evaluate and introduce the best plan to get the economy going again and to protect our economic base or even add to it.

The two most important things is the price of oil and the interest rate. The rest will almost take care of itself.

@Larry Fisher

OHHH! I get it....you increase tariffs inflation hits 20% or more. This spurs economic blah blah blah...

Larry: Chill. And perhaps reduce your caffeine or whatever intake.

@danfinn Hey, answer me this one question. Over the last 24 years exactly which administration(s) put together a real infrastructure bill and passed it? All the while, EVERY SINGLE ADMINISTRATION has said they were going to do that, INCLUDING Donald on his 2016 and 2020 campaigns.

$10 says you won't even attempt to answer.

Brother I can shoot holes in your economic theories all day long by just using facts and math. You, like so many these days, cannot actually handle a debate and retort with facts or data.

thanks

All this Hullabaloo about imposing tariffs on China. If you haven't notice the imports from China have gone down only partly from tariffs.

Many of Trumps tariff's still remained in force during the Biden years. Many international companies have been moving away from China.

Other countries products have been exported and have been filling that void.

American consumers have not suffered because of these tariffs. The only loser is China.

You can't tax your way out of:

1. Being second rate
2. Not having a manufacturing industry
3. Being too expensive
4. Being 10 years behind the times
5. Being incompetent
6. Being corrupt
7. Assuming you can bully everyone into following you
8. Bombing, invading, and destabilising countries that you dislike
9. Making everyone think better capitalists are very naughty people

However, you can maintain the illusion for years as long as your education system is rubbish and your propaganda machine is top top.

Many international companies have been moving away from China. - @Enzyte Bob

They have - they moved to other countries to avoid tariffs.

Same Chinese companies, same products, same profits, but no extra taxes.

Fred said . . . . However, you can maintain the illusion for years as long as your education system is rubbish and your propaganda machine is top top.

******************************************

The US is the top destination in the world for foreign students with 1.5 million. Almost 33% of them are Chinese.

1,200,000 Chinese students are studying abroad, that includes 200,000 exchange students.

So how many will never return to China and how many are spies?

So how many will never return to China and how many are spies? - @Enzyte Bob

It depends on your level of paranoia 🙄

@Larry Fisher

$10 says you won't even attempt to answer.

I will not attempt to answer. You win $10.00. Given that I don't care about your boring topic, maybe you can collect your $10 from Fred 😂

danfinn said to Larry Fisher . . . .
$10 says you won't even attempt to answer.
I will not attempt to answer. You win $10.00. Given that I don't care about your boring topic, maybe you can collect your $10 from Fred 😂

*************************************

Now that made me laugh, that would be 72 Yuans for Fred.

One other thought about Tariffs, a polite way of saying Embargo. Putting tariffs on Chinese products that we can easily purchase from other countries without putting a strain on American consumers.

One other thought about Tariffs, a polite way of saying Embargo. Putting tariffs on Chinese products that we can easily purchase from other countries without putting a strain on American consumers. - @Enzyte Bob

Chinese products are taxed to stop cheap goods entering the market.

If they aren't there, US consumers have to buy more expensive products to do the same job.

That'll keep the cost of living right down.

I said . . . .One other thought about Tariffs, a polite way of saying Embargo. Putting tariffs on Chinese products that we can easily purchase from other countries without putting a strain on American consumers.

******************************************

Fred replied . . . . Chinese products are taxed to stop cheap goods entering the market.
If they aren't there, US consumers have to buy more expensive products to do the same job.

That'll keep the cost of living right down.

*********************************************

My reply to Fred

What don't you understand?

I said Tariffs can be "used as an Embargo". Selective choosing of embargoing certain Chinese products that can be easily purchase from other countries without hurting the American consumer.

Not that it matters guys as we will all see where this leads for good or bad, the people chose and chose overwhelmingly to put Trump back into power, only time will tell now. Won't be that bad if you have plenty of dollars.

From a layman's/plebians observation? It's going to cost the average punter big time by putting tariffs on imported products.

An example, a year or more ago we purchased a large stand alone solar system for 1.4M pesos, my research at the time I looked at comparable German and US. products and it was a no brainer as they were around twice the price and cost prohibitive and honestly the Chinese/Taiwanese products have not missed a beat and affordable.

A new car over 5 years ago was Chinese and had all the European appointments and power and was half the price, also not missed a beat.

A 60% tariff still makes Chinese products cheaper and to even the playing field should be 100%........ End of the day it's the consumers that pay whether a US. product or a foreign product and as always the average joe picks up the bits on the way down.

The only logical way to compete in world markets is to sharpen your pencils and look at the competition, make things more efficient and cost effective and that requires innovation, not tariffs.

These proposed tariffs will up inflation and that hits the people that can least afford the costs and be aware there will be retaliation from many countries thus raising costs further, the wealthy don't care as the average worker pays the price.

OMO.

Cheers, Steve.