Has anyone gone through the simplified naturalization precedure?

Ghampi wrote:

I have to disagree with your point about ones origins being quickly lost. As far as I've found, my ancestors were all ethnic Germans, and resided in the Kingdom of Hungary since at least the 1600's. My grandparents and great-grandparents were expelled in 1946, their mother tongue was German and Hungarian was only learnt in school, not at home. .....The culture of Germans in Hungary was not only conserved, but flourished for most of their history. It wasn't until the late-1800's that ethnic Germans in Hungary began to lose elements of their culture, due to pressures placed on them by the Hungarian government.

I bow to greater knowledge. Although I'm British I also have German roots but it's so far back (>200 years), it's gone forever really from us.

The Germans are still around here where I am and in many villages but I tend to think the first language is Hungarian now, not German. Interestingly a work colleague just showed me a document written in English by a French person with a Hungarian last name! Who knows what is going on there.  So there are many Hungarians, all over and widely dispersed. 

I suppose your relatives being ejected in 1946 was as a result of the Russian takeover and ethnic cleansing.  Mrs Fluffy's grandparents were also hiding out in Germany apparently during the actual war period. I can only speculate that perhaps there were two phases of name changing. One around the 1920s for the Kingdom of Hungary nationalism and perhaps a second wave post WW2.  There's only really 20 years between them so perhaps it's possible.  But yes, indeed they also did the Janos from Johann type change too I understand.

blonder wrote:

I heard is was quite common to change last names.  Not sure why but my grandfather changed his last name one year before coming to Canada.  On the only document I have from 1889 is his baptism and in the 1930s when he changed his family name, it was noted on his original baptism certificate.

Maybe just to make it easier to understand.  One of my colleagues is American and his family came from Italy way back in the 1920s.  Changed their names to make it easier to get employment as Italians were not popular then.  Or so he told me.

Did you ever take Hungarian citizenship?

Please note I made a mistake earlier.  Language test has NO age limit, you can be 100yo and still must speak Hungarian on a basic level to get Simp Nat Citz.

blonder wrote:

Did you ever take Hungarian citizenship?

Who? Me? 

If so, no.  ...I can get it through my wife but I am terrible at Hungarian and would fail horribly.  I also don't really need it to live here as I am an EU citizen anyway.  I have always wondered if I could do the language test in German because I could manage that but it seems German is only acceptable for some parts of government despite there being plenty of German speakers down at the town hall.

Losing the mother tongue happens allot. My father only spoke Slav a mix of Ukrainian/Rusyn/Russian and SK when he came to America as a young boy.
He said he went to school on the US east coast with kids from everywhere, none of them spoke English so they all learned together. He often said growing up in Conn. he would eat Jewish food at one friends house, German at another and Italian somewhere else.No one could hardly speak to each other but somehow they all understood each other.
Everyone was new to the US and they all helped each other the best they could no matter where they came from.
Sounds a bit romantic to me.
My father refused to teach any of us his native language and wanted us all the just say we were American. I wonder why that generation felt less or shame about being a newbie.
I visited my dad's village 2 years ago in Poland near SK and found it fantastic and sweet.
Perhaps back in the 1920's it was allot harder to live then now days and he didn't want to remember the hard times.
I know he never forgot his language and spoke it with his siblings and with my step-dad who's family came from  CH/ SK area, what a crazy mix of people from all points in Europe in my family.
I know when my father entered the US in the mid 1920's or there about's the immigration staff could not spell in the languages of those coming in and really did a terrible job writing down the correct spelling for names, villages etc. It threw me off for 58 years the way they misspelled my dad's village name.
Funny thing is my mother's 19 year old older half brother was 3/4 native Mohawk and he met and married a young women of age 15 who had just come across the ocean from Hungary.( This must of been in the 1920's)  I now still have first cousins that are half HU and allot of Native, very pretty ladies with the best cheekbones ever.My mother grew up eating HUngarian foods and learn nursery rhymes in Hungarian although she never really spoke a word of HU. When she met my HU husband all she could do was  repeat her childhood nursery rhyme to my husband, it was so odd.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

.....My father refused to teach any of us his native language and wanted us all the just say we were American. I wonder why that generation felt less or shame about being a newbie.....

It's a real shame. One doesn't hear about say, Latino Spanish speakers not wanting to know  and use both languages. Maybe the native language reminds Eastern Europeans of periods of oppression.

It's such an advantage to bilingual in something, anything at all, doesn't matter which language. We are actively teaching our kids to be bilingual. We insist on them speaking English and Hungarian and to be able to swap backwards and forwards or encourage them to translate in order to get their minds working and used to that sort of thing.  Our theory is they will always be able to use it or even fall back on it in a crisis.

I've also heard that bilingual people live longer, are better at mathematics and can pick up extra languages with greater ease.

Update:

My mother received this from a very good Hungarian Embassy:

"Your parents were most definitely born Hungarian citizens, they had however lost their Hungarian citizenship with the Treaty of Trianon. That means that they were not citizens of Hungary when you were born in 1937.
You may apply for your naturalization through ‘egyszerűsített honosítás’, and so can all of your descendants. There is no age limit for the language requirements, therefore you should be able to speak Hungarian. However, there is no test, the requirement basically means that one should be able to communicate in Hungarian when lodging the application."

fluffy2560 wrote:

I suppose your relatives being ejected in 1946 was as a result of the Russian takeover and ethnic cleansing.

It wasn't because of the Russians alone, rather it was due to the Potsdam Agreement, which was a product of all the Allied leaders. It was an extremely tactical move. The expulsion of ethnic Germans across Europe was the largest forced migration in human history, with approximately 12-16 million people displaced - unfortunately it's nearly unheard of in our educational institutes, and virtually unknown to much of the population.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I have always wondered if I could do the language test in German because I could manage that but it seems German is only acceptable for some parts of government despite there being plenty of German speakers down at the town hall.

I wondered this too. Like my grandparents, I can speak German fluently, however my Hungarian knowledge is extremely limited. I actually find it appalling that descendants of ethnic German expellees must prove they have sufficient command of the Hungarian language in order to obtain Hungarian citizenship. The German language should absolutely be accepted for this process, and the fact that it isn't, proves that hungarianisation and oppression of ethnic minorities is still alive and kicking within Hungary today.

I would agree.  Aside from Hungarian for Simp Nat Citz, a second language like German or English could be an option.  I am a dual Cad/Deu citizen and am studying Hungarian a lot now but it will never be fluent or even close as I just started in my 50s.  Hopefully they take all of this into account. I speak 4 other languages fluently and I'm already an EU citizen.  Doing this out of respect for my blood.

I have been married to a Hungarian since 1978, only got a 5 year resident permit to stay. No one ever mentioned anything to me about getting HU citizenship through just being married to a HU.
In any case I am not interested in giving up my US papers or even just being a dual citizen.
I don't vote, don't work and don't get into many big social situations. They only thing in my mind for HU citizenship as a senior person would be the free travel within HU once one turns 65. That is a long ( thankfully) 5 years away and who knows they may do away with that perk within 5 years time.
Again, just being married to a HU citizen is no leg up on HU citizenship.
I think in many ways the rules here are twisted, seems you have to live in HU even if unmarried to a HU citizen to be thought of as a partner for a short time, like 3 years, I have been doing my husbands dirty laundry, putting up with his insane family and being a "devoted" wife for 4 decades, the HU immigration office didn't exactly think we were even married, very odd indeed.

Ghampi wrote:

..... I actually find it appalling that descendants of ethnic German expellees must prove they have sufficient command of the Hungarian language in order to obtain Hungarian citizenship. The German language should absolutely be accepted for this process, and the fact that it isn't, proves that hungarianisation and oppression of ethnic minorities is still alive and kicking within Hungary today.

I agree with you.

There's also a load of Romanians living down near the Romanian border as well.  They also have to speak Hungarian (of course most of them do, even with accents).  I suppose the argument is that Hungarian keeps the cohesivness of the Hungarian nation together.  All that being said, I could hardly imagine Hungary allowing Romanian in public administration. There's a very poor history of that kind of thing all over the region and quite a few documented circumstances recently (<20 years ago) of difficulties with that (Slovakia being one particularly). One of the reasons for the simplified naturalisation (welcome ethnic Hungarians back to the motherland). Romanians doing it also to Moldovans.

I have sympathy for ethnic Romanians but I visited Romania a couple years back and was actually shocked by the way they treat Hungarians there.(I am neither Romanian or Hungarian, just a watcher of human nature)
We bought a throw away car for the trip, some old beat up Ford, figured if it got stolen or whatever we would just jump a ride on a train.
Wowie, as an American in a car with HU plates I was nearly killed a couple of times within 3 days. seems in Romania near the boarder if you drive with HU plates you are a target to be pushed off the road.
We were warned by my BIL but to actually have it happen was another thing.
He told us of how he and his wife once went into Romania for a vacation and needed gas to get home. No station would sell gas to them because of their HU plates. A HU man living in RO took mercy on them and told them to drive down the road and wait for him while he bought gas in a can for them to get home.
When we were in RO we picked up 2 hitch hikers ages 76 for the man and 80 for the women. They just wanted to get to the next village to visit friends. Their problem was the RO gov. had no bus service in the area where ethnic HU lived. as we got further into RO we were often flagged down for rides by Hungarians who screamed out, please give us a ride fellow Hungarians. We were going the other direction but felt bad for them.
As an American I never experienced such strange goings on.
Perhaps, sadly it is just human nature to be cruel and mean to people you can put down, sick really.
Then again I have had things happen to me in Hungary that if I ever tried to pull the same thing off in the US, I would be killed and on the evening news.

Sorry to read this, I know you were counting on getting your HU papers through your family, this is not right in my mind.

Yes, my grandfather spoke 5 or 6 languages, he was the only one actually born in the USA on my father's side.
In the "old days" pre WW11 in the US one could find people who still spoke their native language at home all the time even if their children spoke English. On one side my grandfather was born in 1882 in the US but only spoke German until he was a teenager and my US born Ruysn grandfather had a Slavic accent even though he was born in PA.
He went to Poland/Russia and the Ukraine to fight around 1917, not even sure what side he was on but I know my father never got on with his dad, always said he was a" commie."
I read letters translated into English that were from the late 1940's until my GF death in 1967.He thought of himself as a Russian citizen and was very upset that his 9 children married outside of the ethnic group. I know he called my mother , "The German" funny as she was also native American, sort of made being German mute.

My husbands step-father was an ethnic German who was born in Romania, after WW11 he had to leave RO.
He spoke Hungarian/ German and after being held as a POW for nearly 6 years in Russia after the war was over with he knew Russian very well.They just don't make tough guys like that anymore...6 years in a forced labor camp and still alive? Mercy!

My son speaks pretty good Japanese, lucky for him since his new wife is from Japan.
I remember one time when we were on vacation in Hungary and our 20 year old son was learning Japanese, my husband was upset since we were in Hungary and our son didn't care to learn Hungarian. Guess everyone has to learn what they enjoy.

Well, I have my interview tomorrow and have studied my butt off for months with a teacher and learning all relevant words.  All papers are in order and now its up to the kindness of the one staff member at the Embassy that will "listen" and "speak" in Hungarian.
I have waited a year since my first rejection and this time I will get it!!!
I am very determined.
Will let you know how it goes.  1 hour has been allocated.  BTW, they keep all your records from the first attempt in Budapest so you only need your latest passport and new pictures.   

Good luck!!

Thank you!  I wish the best for you as well.  Hope the link before can bring some hope to your situation!
Interesting link for you and the forum!

kiváló!!!
- hungarytoday.hu/news/deputy-pm-700000-beyond-border-hungarians-granted-citizenship-far-31502

Any updates from others in this forum???

blonder wrote:

.....
I have waited a year since my first rejection and this time I will get it!!!

Good luck!

I join the others in wishing you well.

Myself, I found the string of posts here so discouraging -- especially the one about the Hungarian telephone call out of the blue! -- that I haven't looked at my Hungarian textbooks for weeks.

Perhaps my interest will be rekindled if you have a good experience, (But an hour! I was expecting more like 15 minutes.)

Good luck.

Thank you kind forum members.
I was told at least an hour...
Lord give me patience and a clear mind 

Received this as well as a lovely update:

We would like to draw your attention to the fact that when applying for Hungarian citizenship in the simplified naturalization procedure, one of the basic legal requirements is to understand and communicate in Hungarian language on a sufficient level, to be able to present the application for naturalization independently, without external assistance, and to answer the questions asked by the officer independently, in short sentences. In case your command of Hungarian language does not reach the sufficient level, you can’t expect a positive decision.

It was sent to me BOLD and underlined...

Off to the gallows!

Perhaps they're flying in the executioner from Budapest.

Szia!  The Embassy lady was very kind and it was a day of bundled nerves.
For us with Hungarian blood just outside present day Hungarian borders, we need "intermediate" level Hungarian.  This changed recently as many in the years 2011-2013, gave one "Jo napot" and that was all they need for language skills.
Now the bar is higher.  An "intermediate" level of understanding and speaking as well as another language check IF you get the Naturalized certificate.  This is to make sure that the applicant can really speak Hungarian.  I have logged in so many months and hours studying (I do love and enjoy the language) but I prepared everything based on my CV and the questions were NOT related at all.  On top of that I was so nervous and spent months learn legal vocab (passport, birth certificate, marriage vocab, cultural terms) and words that I will use in my move to Hungary next year.  I was right 60% of understanding and replying but wish I could have spoke more about hobbies, naturalization, family etc.  I was totally off on the subject and pulled nervous blanks.  Just one of those days.  I was able to speak and state what I knew but since there is no set test, you have NO idea what the Embassy staff will ask you.  I can use medical vocab and talk about making pies but quick worded phrases regarding something I studied a few years ago and the details caught me off guard.  I explained what I knew and that I was really nervous.  My application was submitted and I will continue studying so that in 3-4 months if I am lucky enough to get accepted, I will be prepared on a wider scale.  All I can say to you in this forum is that there is no way to know what you will be asked.  I have a Skype teacher for months now as class wasn't working for me and I study so much on my own but I wish I could tell you exactly what you will be asked but clearly I don't know.  You are rated low-medium-high on the intermediate scale and I was a weak medium with kind words of how hard I'm studying and hopefully that will allow me to show what I can do in 3-4 months.  I was told they don't submit if you don't speak well.  Therefore, low = basic, medium = conversational and high = fluent.
I really want to speak well and this faith that was offered to me to make sure I learn more before my esku is a great incentive.  All I can say is speak as much as you can and there is no method used or special vocabulary.  Depends on the Embassy and that staff that interview you.  Fingers crossed for all of us and if you have been turned down before, polish your language skills and try again.  One last note.  If you are doing our esku, you can only change the city/country/Embassy ONCE to another place (moving, family in another country etc).  Hope this helps.  I think my grandmother was watching over me today, as I really am doing this for emotional/family reasons.  I'm already an EU citizen so for me this is purely for the heart.
BTW, process for reviewing my adatlap and all the rest was not needed from my 2 year ago submission and still it took 2 hours and 15 mins.  Make sure to give yourself time!  Mine was actually less paperwork as it was my second time and I have no wife or children.  I'm thankful for the kind Embassy staff lady for being patient with me.  I hope to hear from forum members!

Sounds like you have a passion and have worked hard to learn what you can.
I think if anyone should get it, you should. Let us know how it goes...

I did hear one more piece of news today.  They are debating if they should get rid of the language requirement as this naturalization in away for some is actually by descent.  They "may" take other factors into account like financial background as well as headcount of applicants to meet some target numbers.
I think that you Marilyn deserve it with your abilities and attempts.  The longer and deeper we get into this the more confusing it becomes.  I have said it before.  If we had applied in 2011-2012, it would have been so much easier.
A random test made by any staff is not really a way to judge as I mentioned earlier.  I could speak about weather, medical or baking but blank out on a date/number and it could blow my chance.

blonder wrote:

.... I could speak about weather, medical or baking but blank out on a date/number and it could blow my chance.

Or politics.

Anything criticising Orban is likely to get a big rejected stamp on it.

I don't think they can discuss politics but I mentioned I was aware of both parties, the new border fence as well the history of this simplified naturalization.  I like Orban Viktor PM.  He has made fresh changes and improved life in Hungary but I think this forum is best suited about helping us all get through the process and not politics.
I do make a wonderful plum pie and wanted to share my secret recipe. 

blonder wrote:

... I like Orban Viktor PM.  He has made fresh changes and improved life in Hungary ....
I do make a wonderful plum pie and wanted to share my secret recipe. 

He's not that popular for those of us that are here in HU.  Plum pie always welcome.

blonder wrote:

I did hear one more piece of news today.  They are debating if they should get rid of the language requirement as this naturalization in away for some is actually by descent.  They "may" take other factors into account like financial background as well as headcount of applicants to meet some target numbers.

Firstly, I wish you best of luck with your submission, and I hope you receive a positive outcome!

I'm curious about the news you heard regarding debate about abolishing the language requirement. Are you able to clarify what you mean by "as this naturalization in a way for some is actually by descent"?

Szia.   Sure.  I believe the Embassy staff was referring to:

http://hungarytoday.hu/news/deputy-pm-7 … -far-31502

Interesting. Thanks for the link, blonder.

This is not an official site but "echoes" what I heard from an Embassy staff.  It "could" be a reason why we have so many issues as "real Hungarian by descent relatives" when trying for our citizenship.

http://www.xpatloop.com/news/is_there_a … speaks_out

blonder wrote:

Szia.   Sure.  I believe the Embassy staff was referring to:

http://hungarytoday.hu/news/deputy-pm-7 … -far-31502

If you mean from the statement:

"100,000 people would be simply declared Hungarian citizens by the end of the term rather than going through the naturalisation process. This will apply to people whose parents or grandparents emigrated from Hungary and are Hungarians by birth but have never been declared Hungarian citizens."

Don't read too much into that to imply that the language requirement would be dropped for simplified naturalization.  It may also be referring to the Act LV of 1993 on Hungarian Citizenship, where everyone born of a Hungarian citizen is a Hungarian citizen at birth.

Derivation of Hungarian Citizenship
Section 3

1.       The child of a Hungarian citizen shall become a Hungarian citizen by birth.

Unless the law changed after this 1993 law, thus even a person is born abroad of parents who are Hungarian citizens that person also is automatically a Hungarian citizen even if they have not yet done the paperwork officially to register their Hungarian citizenship, and I have never seen a language requirement for get this citizenship right.

The simplified citizen procedure was designed to allow those born abroad, but with proven Hungarian ancestry going further back in time, to apply for citizenship. Which is actually a quite unusual citizenship law, and so I would be surprised if it "officially" allowed citizenship to those who could then vote in National level Hungarian elections but who could not even read a Hungarian ballot.

I also found this first sentence in the above link.... "interesting" for two reasons:

"So far 750,000 ethnic Hungarians have applied for Hungarian citizenship and 700,000 people have been granted the status"

1) So only "ethnic" Hungarians have applied? No decedents of, for example, ethnic Swabians whose family had a long residence history in Hungary, but who were born abroad, and can speak Hungarian? The simplified naturalization, in its text, certainly allows Swabians to apply on an equal basis. But the wording in the article really takes a disappointing "ethnicist" world view, IMHO.

2) Due to changes in Hungarian tax law, which now allows taxing Hungarian citizens living abroad on their world wide income, there are now up to 700,000 more source of tax income for the Hungarian government (there are ways to avoid this double tax). Just consider, no free lunch in this world, and a state offering citizenship may be doing so with strings attached. 

Wow, never really considered  that the HU gov could go after taxes on Naturalized citizens living outside of Hungary.
Is that the case? Do you know more about that?
My son is a HU citizen through his father but since his divorce from  his HU wife he no longer is interested in setting foot in HU.
Might be time to renounce citizenship if it gets that serious. Hardly can afford to live after paying US taxes!

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Wow, never really considered  that the HU gov could go after taxes on Naturalized citizens living outside of Hungary.
Is that the case? Do you know more about that?
My son is a HU citizen through his father but since his divorce from  his HU wife he no longer is interested in setting foot in HU.
Might be time to renounce citizenship if it gets that serious. Hardly can afford to live after paying US taxes!

My understanding is it applies for those Hungarian citizens living abroad that do not have another passport or are not living in a country with a tax treaty with Hungary. The US has a tax treaty with Hungary, and I assume your son is also a US citizen, so is exempt from paying Hungarian taxes on US income (but not sure if he has to still "file" a Hungarian tax return).

For example (take this English language source for what it is worth, just a link without references):

http://www.nestmann.com/hungary-now-imp … -citizens/

Thanks for the info, a relief, he is already in deep doo-doo if he re enters Hungary with his new wife since he has not yet sent his divorce papers to Hungary. He divorced his Hungarian wife in the US years ago , got married however in Budapest so they have him on record as still being married over here.
I found that out in person at immigration services when I was trying for my resident permit in HU.
Weird they know so much about everyone but still did not think I was married to my husband of 40 years until I paid more money...

He is re married these days and I am afraid if he enters Hungary again he will be arrested for bigamy!
He really should just send the paperwork for his divorce to the embassy, lazy!

As I also understand the rule, so long as you retain, say, your original US citizenship after you acquire Hungarian citizenship, you do not become subject to Hungarian income tax unless you are actually resident in Hungary. That is, the rule taxing Hungarian citizens who reside outside Hungary on their worldwide incomes applies only to those who solely hold Hungarian citizenship, not those with dual citizenship. Thus it would not affect most of those acquring citizenship through Simplified Naturalization, who generally retain their original citizenship.

But perhaps someone more familiar with the tax rule can confirm this for certain, or not. It is a very important point.

Of course, assuming that that is the rule, it is at best today's rule only. Anyone acquiring Hungarian citizenship does take some risk that tax or other rules will develop adversely in the future.

As to Blonder's recent experience, it seems far far more demanding than just replying in short answers to questions about the application. And it is surprising that there's apparently a more demanding language standard for those whose relatives came from outside modern Hungary, since the purpose of the Simplified Naturalization procedure was to benefit precisely those people.

My impression now is that the language 'investment" for most people would be at least two years of serious study followed by three months' practical speaking experience in Hungary. To get to a middle-intermediate level with less than that would be pretty hard, I think, unless you're living in Hungary.

By the way, did the consul speak freely or did she seem to be working from a script? Did she speak in "foreigner-friendly" textbook Hungarian or more colloquially?

In any event, I still can't understand why folks here are having such difficulties while the Hungarian government keeps issuing statistics showing an exceptionally high success rate.

People living in neighboring countries do seem to be having an easier time than those living elsewhere.