Warning

zarvata-Could the youth in the moving car see the deep blue eyes of foreign women before the attack? I don`t think so, but "no headscarves" - definitely.
My idea is not that everyone has to wear scarf. I`m actually happy that there is choice. But then you should be ready that you may provoke some fools for the reaction. So, it`s either freedom of will or security.

You are right dear and i m fully agree with u. It’s better to cover ourselves with decency. When I landed in Riyadh it was quite a task for me to hold the slippery stole on my head and most of time it was irritating and i noticed more ogling comparatively when i was with no head scarf. I mean c'mon girls, its just a light weighted stole which need to be surrounded on our face and we won't be getting unnecessary attention.

we won't be getting unnecessary attention.

I've spent time in China.  People there would walk to within a few feet of me, stop, and stare, their mouths agape.  They would try to touch my hair.  They would follow me on the street. They would try to photograph me or pull me into photographs with them or their families. 

When my daughter came over to visit, she was appalled and always redfaced and angry about it.  I'd gotten used to it and found it amusing (one time when a man was two feet away staring at me on a street, almost in a trance, I stepped towards him and said 'boo!' He jumped two feet and looked embarrassed lol).

The people there were never hostile, just curious to the point of being what we in the west would consider obnoxious.

So trust me, the few stares I get here, uncovered, are nothing for me.  Of course, we all have our own comfort level and we can all do as we wish in this matter.  For me, I don't want to give up one of my few vestiges of 'freedom' here and will take whatever consequences come my way. 

That said, back to my usual about being vigilant and aware of my surroundings.

My issue with wearing a headscarf was that it seemed to confuse people, they couldn't work out what I was, a Western non muslim, a muslim convert, wearing tinted contact lenses perhaps.   

I found that people stared at me constantly and this made me really uncomfortable.  If I don't wear a scarf and I'm obviously western I find people sum me up and categorize me with one glance and the ignore me.

Incidents like this one in the mall aren't common, most Saudi's  don't have this sort of attitude to foreigners.  I think I'd rather take my chances with the odd person like this than cope with the constant leering that goes with the headscarf.

I think I'd rather take my chances with the odd person like this than cope with the constant leering that goes with the headscarf.

Hmm... I always thought that self-security is one of the main human instincts. Looks do not hurt, but a stone definitely would…   
Anyway… what I was thinking about is that why one can prefer to be in a more vulnerable position, but with the freedoms? 

For me, I don't want to give up one of my few vestiges of 'freedom' here and will take whatever consequences come my way.

Alliecat
I guess it feels nice, because it feels like you are a rebel, right?
I don`t mean to hurt anyone, I`m just thinking in aloud.

I've been in Saudi Arabia 2 years and I have found without a headscarf I'm far less likely to be harassed either by security, religious police or locals.  I've heard the same view expressed by other western women who've been in the country for extended periods too.

Initially I wore scarves all the time, then only for places I felt less comfortable eventually I stopped altogether as I found that the correlation between wearing the scarf and having unpleasant experiences was too high.

Even in Riyadhs souqs I always feel safer with my hair uncovered.

Westerners are not the only targets of animosity in KSA and I find on the whole that locals treat me far better than they do my Middle Eastern or Asian friends.  I've never been abused in the way described in this account but I've witnessed Egyptian & Lebanese friends having abuse shouted at them by locals on more than one occasion.

Alethe

I've been in Saudi Arabia 2 years and I have found without a headscarf I'm far less likely to be harassed either by security, religious police or locals.

I've never been abused in the way described in this account

But if you were never harrased (Alhamdulillah!) then how do you know that it is safer without the scarf?
Do I understand your idea right, you don`t wear the scarf not to be mixed with other Arabs and Asians who are treated in a worse way than Europeans?

Yeah basically that's my view.  On the whole I think that Westerners are treated incredibly well in Saudi, much better than a lot of other nationalities and also better than Saudi's from undesirable tribes.

On the occasions when people stopped me and made a fuss I told them I was Australian and did not speak Arabic (not completely true) and they immediately left me alone. 

I have an Egyptian Australian friend who's mother tongue is Arabic who pretends not to speak the language if harassed as she feels that makes her safer & Saudi Shiite friend with a strong American accent who pretends to be American and not understand Arabic.

zarvata wrote:

shahab.ali wrote:

every saudi in riyadh has some sort of connections with the royal family

Oh, please
Every saudi DREAMS to have some sort of connectons...

ya every saudi do dream of having connection with the Royal family but as the roal family is mostly in riyadh, the normal saudis do have connection and am sure of that...they study together, or they are gym partners, or they have common friends or....something. even if they dont have a connection, wen they r in trouble, they surely can get in touch with one for sure!

the normal saudis do have connection and am sure of that

I personally know normal saudis who have no connections with royal family. What about them?...
Whatever, actually.
Just I don`t like words "always", "every"... not always and not every.

There are a lot of Saudis (~80% of the population of the country) and many of them have no connection to the royal family. Many Saudi's from tribes not connected to the Al Saud's are extremely poor. 

Your average westerner in Riyadh probably has more connections to the Al Saud's than most Saudis.  They are parents of our children's classmates,  patients in the hospitals where many westerners work, and students at the universities where they teach.

Alethe wrote:

They are parents of our children's classmates,  patients in the hospitals where many westerners work, and students at the universities where they teach.

so, u from one eh?? so that means even I have a connection now?

so that means even I have a connection now?

Don't even think about it!  We will all deny knowing you!

Alliecat wrote:

so that means even I have a connection now?

Don't even think about it!  We will all deny knowing you!

HAHAHAHAHAHA....why Allie Why???
what made u so good in keeping your paws up right direction to Shaby baby ..u never miss a chance....hannn!!!!

anyway me too...i m gonna deny as well

noooooooo i cant lose u all...and also i cant lose to have that opportunity to lose a GOOD connection

..u never miss a chance....hannn!!!!

You know I can't resist shababy!

CAF wrote:

Hmm...  VERY disturbing to say the least!  And although the incident wasn't in the paper, it flies in the face of Saudi culture and Im sure the MOI is looking into the issue and security at the malls will change - In Sha Allah. 

The fact that not a soul assisted those women is truly sad!  Especially for those of us who expect assistance when these things happen.  It would be interesting to hear from the Saudis in the forum if this type of behavior - the lack of assistance from the Security & bystanders is normal here in the kingdom?  And let me add that Im not being judgmental, I think that there are societies, areas and people, even here in the US, where people would not come to your aid and wouldn't get involved, even if you were dying on the street.  Seems a bit surreal, but its true!

It seems to me that this was a VERY unusual and isolated case of being stupid.  Lets hope that these guys are caught and dealt with.

I feel sorry for these ladies who were injured by this incident . The secrty gaurds and also the people who were there should have done some help. This behaviour is totally un acceptable.

Joe911 - Welcome to the forum and thank you for your input.  The behavior was unacceptable, but it happened.  We can only hope that its an isolated event and won't happen again and the Security Services throughout the Kingdom learn form this event.

We hope you continue to participate and enjoy yourself here on the forum! 

CAF wrote:

Joe911 - Welcome to the forum and thank you for your input.  The behavior was unacceptable, but it happened.  We can only hope that its an isolated event and won't happen again and the Security Services throughout the Kingdom learn form this event.

We hope you continue to participate and enjoy yourself here on the forum! 

Hopefully . I really find my self here in this forum among a group of nice different nationalities people. Thank you for welcoming me and make me feel more comfortable.

Hi Joe,

I join CAF in welcoming you!  I value the participation of nationals because you sometimes add good insight and information to our discussions.

Here are some suggestions for ladies to keep safe that I'm passing on. For those of you that don't have drivers to act as an escort the message is clear, get inside the mall, don't hang around outside. 

Be vigilent of youths lurking around communal areas in cars the vehicle in the above incident was apparently a white 4x4. Avoid the vehicle and its occupants, move inside.

Consider avoiding Kingdom shopping mall for a while.

If you are using the main street levels exits for pick up wait INSIDE the mall for the driver to arrive. Do not hang about outside, get straight into the car.  Brief the driver on this. Lock doors and wear seatbelts immediately on entry to the vehicle.

In the larger Malls Use the underground car park option as a drop off / collection point and have drivers, where possible, escort laies occupants up into the mall.

If dropped off at street level, outside leave the vehicle and enter the mall immediately. Have the driver alight from the vehicle and keep watch as you do this.

If you see anything suspicious advise mall security, move to ladies floor (if there is one).

Make sure you have a charged mobile with you at all times. Have emergency numbers programmed in. Keep a car charger for your mobile in the glove box.

Consider travelling in numbers of three or more.

Report all incidents to the Police.

Alliecat wrote:

Hi Joe,

I join CAF in welcoming you!  I value the participation of nationals because you sometimes add good insight and information to our discussions.

Hi Alliecat,

Thank you fro your nice word, you guys have been so friendly

"Ten commandments of Sandman"
oops! i meant 10 warnings of him

u r scaring a crap out of them i feel like living in war zone.

Nonz,

Sorry, didn't mean to scare anyone but I think that anyone who doesn't take precautions and look after themselves in Saudi is living in dream land.

Western expats are very visible in Saudi society and need to be careful.

We all know that certain behaviour we would deem normal in other countries is not appropriate here. Same applies to your personal safety i.e. precautions that you may not consider necessary elsewhere are essential here.

Then again we could all deny that these issues exist and skip merrily on our way.

i know,all u mean was prcautions but most time our few friends make fuss of these warnings....

c'mon guys!! lets stop the crap and let them come and discover themselves wat this part of the world is all about! i just went thru some of the topics on the forum and we have given them a clear picture...
while readin i was really mad at it as it became monotonous as the country as people are asking the same questions in a different way to which the answers are same.
sorry if i am sounding rude, but i would appreciate some new questions to be answered rather than the same ones...someone was correct in sayin that if u dont like it here then take your ass outta here...sorry guys...ciao

Okay, bad things happen in my hometown. They happen everywhere.  But as Sandman points out, we are very visible here so best to be alert (but not paranoid).

For me, I'll never wear a scarf.  But I will keep my eyes open (I've developed incredibly keen peripheral vision due to awareness of  mutawa coming in from the rear lol) and use a few of the tricks I've picked up, such as walking against traffic and, as proposed after the incident at Kingdom Mall, not hanging around outside waiting for a driver.

In the States I once worked at a university in a city dubbed by Time magazine as the most dangerous city in the US (Camden, NJ).  Tips I learned there included staying  in groups (or at least pairs), not walking on sidewalks at night--rather, walking in the street to avoid someone lunging out of doorways or alleys--and when driving, never pulling up close to the car in front at a red light; ie. always leave yourself room for a fast exit.

And after an incident in Beijing, I'm a big proponent of learning the words "HELP ME" in the language of the country you're in.  In Arabic, it is (phonetically) SA-A-DOONIE.

Bad day, Shahab?

Seems we had this conversation; the same questions over and over, on another thread.

Just how many questions can there be about making this kind of move?  Most people have the same questions, the same concerns, the same problems, the same fears.

I thought Sandman's suggestions were spot on, well thought out and very well stated.  Also completely relevant and important for all to know to stay safe in what is not necessarily a safe place for Westerners.

u r scaring a crap out of them sad i feel like living in war zone.

In a way, Nonz, it is.  There would not be large guns on the way to my compound if it was as safe as you seem to want.  It isn't.

One of our admin assistants was stopped yesterday, searched and ticketed by the police for using a cell phone in a "Red Zone", near one of the security emplacements.

I was stopped today for going "too quickly" through a security area.  There is a reason for this attitude: it isn't all that safe for us.  There are real security issues.

I, for one, appreciate Sandman's list and would happily give that to every woman that I care about, should she come to the KSA.

yes stretch...actually bad times
well, really hats off to sandman for putting it in a wonderful way...i wasnt pointing at him and never will...he wrote it very well...as this forum was most active today so posted here.
those who say its dangerous, i wud say it is not. better go to nigeria, or sudan for that matter and see. people are NOT allowed to go out of the compounds itself! people there dont take flights at nights...i aint comparing this country to that but just wanna say that we all are in a better of place

...i aint comparing this country to that but just wanna say that we all are in a better of place

Sure we are--but we should still be careful

There are a number of important security measures though that people need to be aware of.  A couple of additional ones not specifically related to the incident here:

1. Never post photos on the internet that contain women.
2. Never post trip itineries or plans on the internet, it's fine to write up where you went and what you did after the fact, but don't post details in advance.
3. If your doing a highway trip and you stop for a break of more than a few minutes, make sure you are out of sight of sight of the road.

I had a terrible day, today, as well Shahab...it too will pass (hopefully)

To say that Nigeria or Sudan are (more) dangerous than here doesn't make here safe, though.

I'm not saying this place is Afghanistan, but it sure as hell isn't an idyllic wonderland full of benevolent people who only want to wish us well on our journeys through life.

Hope you have a better day tomorrow.  I know I am shooting for it.

lol. I had fun reading this.

dont get me wrong though. not the subject but the conversations that took place later on.

I'm hoping everyone will have a great day tommorow.

Ma Salama

PS. I just figured my new pic is scary. eek!

Salman Omrani wrote:

PS. I just figured my new pic is scary. eek!

Salman - you've only just worked that out.
Glad you don't look so serious in real life.

MisterStretch:In a way, Nonz, it is.  There would not be large guns on the way to my compound if it was as safe as you seem to want.  It isn't.

This is for your safety” The westerners"
Locals and Asian do not required such sensitive security nor have we ever faced such problems. Even in my country western embassies and compounds has such severe security. Well, I am not blaming u but that's the common practice in most part of world and i m sure, u know the reasons more than me.

No offence but i always find u quite bitter when we dicuss "Life in Saudi"

Alethe
1. Never post photos on the internet that contain women.
2. Never post trip itineries or plans on the internet, it's fine to write up where you went and what you did after the fact, but don't post details in advance.
3. If your doing a highway trip and you stop for a break of more than a few minutes, make sure you are out of sight of sight of the road.

I do not follow any of these instruction and life is still good  ....Surprising hann???

Nonz,  I too find the amount of security quite over whelming.  Its interesting that in a country where there is such little crime that there is security all over the place.  I guess the events of the past and whats happening in the region require such measures.  But its funny that with all of the events in the US, OK City, NY City, etc., that we as a nation have never reverted to the type of security that we find here in KSA.  Maybe we should, but I think the citizens would revolt!

As for the Embassy's - thats another story...  You will find extensive security at all of these facilities!

yeah CAF,its fully understanding and others should understand that the security is for their own good and they should take it pessimistically and of course I am not targeting u

TEN COMMANDMENTS FOR EXPATS IN KSA

1. Thou shalt Never forget your Iqama
2. Thou shalt Always drive on the middle lane
3. Thou shalt Never ask a local, "How is your wife doing?"
4. Thou shalt Never hail a taxi from the Airport unless the driver is expat
5. Thou shalt not be seen with members of the opposite sex who are not your immediate family in public places
6. Thou shalt not park in front of someone elses residential building
7. Thou shalt always bargain before you buy
8. Thou shalt never stare at the female members in the other vehicle at a stop light
9. Thou shalt let the other vehicle overtake you when you see him stepping on your tail
10. Thou shalt always smile at the Immigration guy

Musicman, I like your commandments better than mine

musicman I loveeeeeeeee it