Warning

thanks for posting that. Wow. Ironic.  Allie  you and my husband  are there as health care providers teaching medicine and treating Saudi citizen/patients at THEIR request!!

Yet no one helped these women? That's really the biggest shocker and most disturbing part of the story. We ALL know some wackos live in every country, but to have the police AND ordinary citizens  ignore this and refuse to help her?? 

I'm speechless.

I'm not shocked, at all.

Nor am I speechless.  But to share what I know will just garner another reprimand from someone like mnd...so why bother?

After all, it's THEIR country.

Sheeeeesh.

Lunatics

Okay, I'm not defending anybody but regarding security guards, what you must bear in mind (and I know this for a fact) is that most of them have no education and make a couple thousand riyal a month.

I've seen incidences where I work and the problem is that they just don't really know what to do.  So they stand there.
Should they have known what to do? Of COURSE. You'd think it's common knowledge but as I said, these guys aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.

Again, no defense because they should be trained but there is usually a pretty quick turn-over.

Now I think in light of this, we should all know a few phrases in Arabic to prod people into action. I know the word 'moos-tash-fah' (phonetic!) means hospital. 'Stop' is a tough one:  khef (that initial sound is difficult to make).  The word for 'help' I'm not sure.

But perhaps being able to scream out these words could have made some difference, at least in regards to getting help from the guards.

Remember, it's not everybody who is hostile.  Things like this happen all over the world.  We have to take it upon ourselves to be aware of our surroundings and know what to do in emergency situations.

Did the women call police at the end? Report on the security that take no action? That was a group of women, someone of them had to take notice of the car's registration number...
I mean, something had to be done. If noone protects you, do it yourself.

Yet, I think that was obvious that the women were foreigners. How? I think, no scarfs. So, IMHO, scarf should be worn for your own security.

zarvata wrote:

Yet, I think that was obvious that the women were foreigners. How? I think, no scarfs. So, IMHO, scarf should be worn for your own security.

I have been in the country a week and after observing the glares of men in Kingdom Mall at the unveiled women(on Day 2), I have taken to not only wearing the veil but my sunglasses as well from the moment I step out of my room. In the street, I go so far as throwing the veil completely over my face..even my husband doesn't recognise me! It is not foolproof but it certainly helps me to blend in.

As for Kingdom Mall...it's totally overpriced and full of desperate young people flirting with each other..
What's the alternative to shopping in such a high profile mall?

Also, yesterday I went for a short walk outside my hotel in Olaya only to be followed by a man in a car..it lasted 10 long mins, only because in my panic I got disorientated and couldn't find my way back to the hotel..I slipped into a pharmacy until he disappeared.

Its better not to walk around the strets alone for a lady in ths part of the planet.

The big malls have become hunting grounds for many seeing different types of kicks. Its better to stay away from them. If one does have to go there its always good to be accompanied by family males.

The ladies in my family do their groceries by themselves on weekends by themselves at EuroMarche and they have had no problems whatsoever, so far. Neither have we encountere any priblems at Sahara Mall, Hyatt Mall and Granada Mall.

Alliecat,

I've heard a report of this incident from other sources and it seems that a number of the big expat employers here in the Kingdom are briefing their expat employees on this incident and how to avoid becomming a target themselves.

Regarding the lack of action by the Mall security, or by anyone else for that matter, would it really be too much to expect that they at least offer assistance to the injured women? Their lack of action and the lack of action from anyone standing by condones the attack.

I see that this incident made it into the papers..... NOT

I wore a headscarf when I first arrived but found when I stopped doing so that I got a lot less unwanted attention and that security and police people were a lot easier to deal with. 

I'm obviously foreign, deep blue eyes & very pale skin.  My impression is that headscarves aren't a good idea if your clearly western.

i once had a conversation with the security staff at my office building. from him i came to know that all the staff is from a very small town...kinda village of a village (dont know wat to call that) and they are happy that they are getting a thousand riyal for this job as that is more than enough for them. They are usually very careful not to lose the job so i think they dont help the foreigners. as u all may know, every saudi in riyadh has some sort of connections with the royal family

Hmm...  VERY disturbing to say the least!  And although the incident wasn't in the paper, it flies in the face of Saudi culture and Im sure the MOI is looking into the issue and security at the malls will change - In Sha Allah. 

The fact that not a soul assisted those women is truly sad!  Especially for those of us who expect assistance when these things happen.  It would be interesting to hear from the Saudis in the forum if this type of behavior - the lack of assistance from the Security & bystanders is normal here in the kingdom?  And let me add that Im not being judgmental, I think that there are societies, areas and people, even here in the US, where people would not come to your aid and wouldn't get involved, even if you were dying on the street.  Seems a bit surreal, but its true!

It seems to me that this was a VERY unusual and isolated case of being stupid.  Lets hope that these guys are caught and dealt with.

CAF wrote:

Im not being judgmental, I think that there are societies, areas and people, even here in the US, where people would not come to your aid and wouldn't get involved, even if you were dying on the street.  Seems a bit surreal, but its true!

It seems to me that this was a VERY unusual and isolated case of being stupid.  Lets hope that these guys are caught and dealt with.

Totally agree

Who cares if I look like a Ninja Momma (thanks for that title Shahab ) I'm wearing my veil!!

WooHoo,
I have been in Riyadh 9 days and my 100th post just made me a Contributor on this forum...

and I couldn't think of a more appropriate thread for it to happen on

I'm obviously foreign, deep blue eyes & very pale skin.  My impression is that headscarves aren't a good idea if your clearly western.

Sorry, I just don`t see the logic.

Could the youth in the moving car see the deep blue eyes of foreign women before the attack? I don`t think so, but "no headscarves" - definitely.
My idea is not that everyone has to wear scarf. I`m actually happy that there is choice. But then you should be ready that you may provoke some fools for the reaction. So, it`s either freedom of will or security.

shahab.ali wrote:

every saudi in riyadh has some sort of connections with the royal family

Oh, please
Every saudi DREAMS to have some sort of connectons...

shahab.ali wrote:
every saudi in riyadh has some sort of connections with the royal family

Oh, please
Every saudi DREAMS to have some sort of connectons...

But here's the thing:  you don't know who does and who doesn't.  It's something most Saudi's seem to be very aware of. Estimates of the numbers of the royal family range between 7,000 and 25,000.  Add to that their friends (that is, people with wasta)and there are quite a few people around town you don't want to piss off.

saudi arabia is very good country

Alliecat wrote:

shahab.ali wrote:
every saudi in riyadh has some sort of connections with the royal family

Oh, please
Every saudi DREAMS to have some sort of connectons...

But here's the thing:  you don't know who does and who doesn't.  It's something most Saudi's seem to be very aware of. Estimates of the numbers of the royal family range between 7,000 and 25,000.  Add to that their friends (that is, people with wasta)and there are quite a few people around town you don't want to piss off.

The Royal family is big, I acknowledge this. But still most of them are of lower royalty levels, that doesn`t give that big power. Secondly, there are decent people among them that won`t provide “wasta” services. I mean, the society is still not that hopeless.

What I wanted to say, is that it`s a myth, that all Saudis are either rich, or royal.

What I wanted to say, is that it`s a myth, that all Saudis are either rich, or royal.

HEY!  next thing you'll say is they don't live in tents in the desert and have harems!  You're ruining all the fun, zarvata

huh.  Well this is interesting.. check egyduck's contact list.

jeeze.



it never ends lol

^ Wow, that's a lot of contacts after contributing only two posts on the forum.  Pretty amazing...and girl, you are ONE DESIRED WOMAN, eh? 

and girl, you are ONE DESIRED WOMAN, eh?

so it seems!!! LMAO

Alliecat wrote:

huh.  Well this is interesting.. check egyduck's contact list.

jeeze.



it never ends lol

Yes I know I know but what can one do?
You are the wise one with 1000 posts..congratulations!!

It's always a pleasure to read your thoughts:)

It's always a pleasure to read your thoughts:)

Close your mind...Loanna's one of THEM!  AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!

She's reading your mind.

I think reading egyduck's mind wouldn't be all that difficult, do you?

I live near a large city in the USA and in some parts of downtown, I would not go out at night. No one disputes that there idiots, lunatics or basic criminals in all parts of the world.

But you can bet that in broad daylight if I were injured I would KNOW that the police would help and from the few times I have needed assistance in crisis, I have ALWAYS gotten help from strangers with no benefit to themselves. The police have always responded quickly and Not once in my decades here, have  I been stuck without getting any help in a public place. Not once.

The rock throwing is bad enough (does anyone else see significance in the comment the assailant made: "Get our of ARABIA," and not "Saudi Arabia"? Just wondering...) but the ordinary citizens doing nothing is startling and speaks volumes of EITHER anti-western views OR fear on their part, (Which is worse?) But  the inaction of the police is at best, reckless indifference and gross negligence. At worst, it's complicity.

Anyhow, this news would DEFINITELY have been published in all our newspapers and on TV, with shame expressed and accusations made of racism and anti-immigrant (in our country that's what they'd call it)  phobia,  so please don't equate this action with every other nation's behavior and write it off. Doesn't that just minimize the offensive nature of this act, and encourage more apathy? At some point, turning away from someone in need is not "apathy," but cruelty, and it compounds the wrong with another one).

I assume the reason these women were attacked was the BUS coming from the western compound that advertised their identity and  not b/c they did anything wrong...(Is it possible the assailants were informed ahead of time that they'd arrive then? That's worse...)
Please don't blame the victims for not wearing the right things and pretend that somehow they invited this crime...good grief.   I'm not sure what I'm supposed to wear now for my own protection.   And isn't there a "Dial 911" equivalent someone could have called? Anyone??


My husband and I both served in the first Gulf War. We worked to help Saudi Arabia defend its' borders against Saddam and the Iraquis. So I must ask  who does this if it's part of a movement, as opposed to mere hoodlums (which I doubt given the seeming planned nature of this),  or is it that most Saudis don't seem to realize we are being invited to come to the Kingdom, b/c it's not an open society so you're only there if you have an invite. Why invite us to practice medicine and or teach there, if we're not wanted, or worse, if we're hated?

Sure would help me feel better to hear one Saudi condemn this.

I will ALWAYS help anyone in distress, no matter where they are from.  I think I am like most Americans. I'm the child of  immigrants and my husband is the grandson of one. We "get it". We help each other out. We even have laws that protect those who help out others, and in some circumstances, we have penalties for ignoring people in distress/danger in some states like Alaska. In the winter there, IF you see a car broken down on a rural road, and MOST roads there are rural, you are bound to stop and ask them if they need help.

I have taught my children to be compassionate and reach out to those in need.  I refuse to give that up, let alone b/c of fear or hatred, both of which are usually based on ignorance.
Conceding the obvious is really conceding nothing. But it would help. So I repeat, it sure would be nice to hear one Saudi here, condemn this attack.

Okay...I'll be the one to put the honesty out there and receive my pelting of rocks:

Sure would help me feel better to hear one Saudi condemn this.

Rare to never happen.  If you do hear condemnation for unsociable or heinous acts it is generally by an HCN who has been educated or lived in the West.

Why?  Because there is no accountability in this culture.  I am a teacher and I work with some of the more privileged youth now.  I have worked with working Saudis, educated Saudis and career military officers.

You know something?  When there is a problem, a disaster, a major fuck up in things...it's never their fault.  They will absolve themselves, blame someone else or call it Allah's will.  Given the chance they will just ignore the problem, even if you bring it up to them directly.  It would be humorous if it weren't for the problems it creates.

The "Inshala" that they invoke when you wish them luck or success is endemic in their culture.  They really don't believe, deep down, that hard work gets good results.

They also don't believe bad luck is the result of their actions, either.

An HCN take responsibility for something terrible that happens here? 

I don't think I'll ever live to see it happen.

ONE comment made from a Saudi was how "good this country is

You need to read more carefully.  He is in GIZA.  He is EGYPTIAN.  Also, methinks he is just trying to get enough posts so he can PM women.

That said, spitfire.. why do you always seem like you're lecturing?  No offense, but this is getting on my last nerve.

ALlie,

I thought I had edited out that part about the one comment so my apologies b/c the Egyptian guy is  clearly not a Saudi so you're correct and I don't know why it posted if I edited it,but maybe I waited too long??

As for the rest, I'm still in America so I get to say what I want. No offense meant but surely you realize that this incident sounds terrifying. And it would be treated differently here. Why not at least allow us to share that concern with each other? And must you reprimand in public? You see nothing the least ironic in that?  I'm not the first one you've done that to, so I'm feeling a bit of "pot calling the kettle black" syndrome.

This incident freaked me out, to put it bluntly and yes, this lack of condemnation by any citizen there is also very  NEW to me.  But I'm learning.

And by the way, the ONE comment made from a Saudi was how "good this country is". Um, On THIS topic, to give that response, is NOT helpful.

No, he claims he is from Egypt (he sent me PM too). But I don`t think he really meant anything with his post. I hope so.

Sure would help me feel better to hear one Saudi condemn this.

I think none saudi citizen would approve what these people did.
And in fact I really belive that if someone really wanted this, the accident could be published in Arab News for example. It does publish different views and opinions, it is quite modern in terms of local customs.
But nothing can be published, nothing, if it was not reported to the police officially! Who could explain me why it wasn`t done? Ok, security was stupid, not trained. But we came from another (let me say) "developed" places of the world. Don`t we know the procedures? Reporting would be actually helping this country. Was it serious that someone said it would be dangerous to mess up with locals?... I just cannot belive that.

No offense meant but surely you realize that this incident sounds terrifying

terrifying?  I'm HERE. I'm the one who POSTED this incident. You are in the in the US (as you pointed out).  I posted out of concern so why would you talk to me about 'sharing concern.' 

Now I want you to think about this:

You have a CHOICE.  We ALL do. 

For you, don't come here.

For US, pull a 'runner' (ie. put in for vacation and don't return).

If you come here, accept that you should be vigilent.  Accept that something bad could happen.  And most importantly, accept that this is not the USA.  How things are like at home aren't necessarily the way they are here, no matter how much we wish they were and no matter how much complaining we do.

Was it serious that someone said it would be dangerous to mess up with locals?...

Zarvata, sometimes people just don't have the resources to pursue something like this (ie. time, a translator, transportation and a male to accompany them, which makes a big difference).

CAF, fortunately, had all of this plus the courage to pursue her complaint against a Saudi cabdriver who had behaved unconscionably while driving her from the airport. KUDOS to her!

And most importantly, accept that this is not the USA.  How things are like at home aren't necessarily the way they are here,

I think she will, Allie.  We all prepare for coming to a new country differently.  If KSA is your first overseas assignment, it's a very tough one, and in the current climate in America probably a very difficult one to imagine.

A little patience might be in order here.  She'll adjust, like we did.  The intelligent ones seem to.  It's the inflexible, ignorant ones that seem to pop.

After she's here and settled in, we should all get together with some fruit juice and make an evening of it.

A little patience might be in order here.

Good advice, Stretch.  You're right.

But it brings up a good idea for a new thread...

Thanks Allie!

Zarvata - I happen to agree with you about going public, but Im not sure if anyone would put it in print.  Im sure some sort of corroboration may be needed along with a police report, and even then, it may not go any further.  And frankly, as sad as it is, race and citizenship have a LOT to do with how far the authorities will take an issue.  While pressing charges against my Taxi Driver, they wanted to know my background, citizenship, if I was working, who my sponsor was, was I working AND my education level! 

And even after all of that, bc this guy was a Saudi, they tried to talk me out of pressing charges.  They told me he couldn't admit his error in judgement bc it would bring 'dishonor' on his wife & family!  I laughed and pressed ahead with charges...

Since being in country we have had a few things happen to us and have been told to look the other way bc nothing will happen anyway.  I just cant get my arms around that mentality.  I believe that its my duty to notify the authorities and then let them do what they feel is necessary.  Even if the issue is swept under the carpet, certainly after enough complaints, something will change.  But if we continue to look the other way and just complain, then the authorities will never know and NOTHING will happen.  Call me a silly naive American, but thats what I believe. 

I think we have to realize that this is a society in the midst of warp-speed change and although things are not the best today, enormous change is coming.  I happen to like the country, love the people both, Sauds & non-Sauds, that Ive met and believe that there is only a very small percentage that make things bad.   I plan to continue to go about my daily routine and shop, etc., without covering my hair/face.  I am honored to have this opportunity to live here in KSA as an American.  I hope that in some small way that I can make a difference an leave the country with a greater appreciation for the Arab culture. 

Ooops!  I'm talking way too much!  Sorry for the soap box!

CAF wrote:

But if we continue to look the other way and just complain, then the authorities will never know and NOTHING will happen.

....

I hope that in some small way that I can make a difference an leave the country with a greater appreciation for the Arab culture.

Exactly!
+1

there is only a very small percentage that make things bad.   I plan to continue to go about my daily routine and shop, etc., without covering my hair/face.

Exactly my views!  I won't be foolhardy but won't kowtow, either.  Just be alert.

Oh, and for loana, who said she was followed, a word of advice:  it had occured to me a while ago, what with the abductions in other countries, to always try to walk facing oncoming traffic.  That way it would be impossible to be followed.

Good Point Allie - I never really gave that any thought!  But then Im not normally out walking in the city alone.  I have added a new requirement for my driver - BIG, BOUNCER Like!  lol