Why don't Vietnamese understand Vietnamese spoken by a foreigner?

THIGV wrote:

Jim-Minh wrote:

Some mics have such poor frequency response that a lot of the tonal information is distorted or not captured. The telephone has a mic too but is designed to capture voice and convey it properly.

The PA system at my intermediate school used for ceremonies and stage performances was so bad that I could barely make out what people were saying when they spoke English.  Yet every Vietnamese present seemed to understand the Tiếng Việt that came through those speakers.  Is it possible that Vietnamese are so used to working with context clues in situations like holding a conversation in heavy traffic while wearing a face mask and maybe having their ears covered by a helmet, that they have no problems if vowel tones are distorted by a mic?  I am sure all of you have witnessed bike-to-bike conversations as well as passenger-driver.  Of course the distortion is predictable, unlike the tonal errors of a foreign speaker.

When I walk along a busy road with my wife and talk with her (in English), I practically don't understand anything because the background noise is too loud.

My wife, on the other hand, understands me perfectly. I don't know if this is just a limitation of mine or if it's an age-related phenomenon. I generally hear very well (I wake up at the slightest noise  ).

THIGV wrote:

Is it possible that Vietnamese are so used to working with context clues in situations like holding a conversation in heavy traffic while wearing a face mask and maybe having their ears covered by a helmet, that they have no problems if vowel tones are distorted by a mic?  I am sure all of you have witnessed bike-to-bike conversations as well as passenger-driver.  Of course, the distortion is predictable, unlike the tonal errors of a foreign speaker.

A bad mic certainly can't help but I do think the contextual issues would be common for both Viets and foreigners. You are obviously correct there are other elements at play here.

Willy Baldy - I just had to say "thỉnh thoảng" four times to get Google Translate to understand me. My SO got it the first time, so there's a problem somewhere. I am working to hear the difference.

WillyBaldy wrote:

sanooku wrote:

e.g. I find it hard to pronounce 'Thỉnh thoảng' (sometimes), so after trying, it's not understood, I just use 'đôi khi' (sometimes) instead. 'đôi khi' is much easier to pronounce for me.

That "khi" word seems to be a central ingredient, used with "khi nao" (when/time), "khi" (when this or that) and now "đôi khi", thanks because that's one expression I was in great need of and still missing. I was planning on looking it up.

I had to say "thỉnh thoảng" to Google Translate four times before it understood me. My Viet SO hit it the first time. We are missing something ...

WillyBaldy wrote:

That "khi" word seems to be a central ingredient,

The synonym of 'khi' is 'lúc' so there are many more words you can use to express 'sometimes' beside 'thỉnh thoảng' and 'đôi khi' :   đôi lúc, có khi, có lúc, khi có khi không, lúc có lúc không, lúc này [hay] lúc khác, khi này [hay] khi khác,

'Lắm lúc' and 'lắm khi' express 'more often than not'.

Duplicate. Disregard. For some reason, I have not been able to see the posts I have made.

'Nhiều lúc', and 'nhiều khi' also have the same meaning as 'more often than not'.

The opposite is 'ít' (ít khi: rarely) but 'ít lúc' is not commonly used.

Ciambella wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

That "khi" word seems to be a central ingredient,

The synonym of 'khi' is 'lúc' so therre are many more words you can use to express 'sometimes' beside 'thỉnh thoảng' and 'đôi khi' :   đôi lúc, có khi, có lúc, khi có khi không, lúc có lúc không, lúc này [hay] lúc khác, khi này [hay] khi khác,

'Lắm lúc' and 'lắm khi' express 'more often than not'.

That's very good information. I have seen "khi" and "lúc" used in so many ways but I was never aware of its importance until now. It is the Vietnamese descriptor for relative time.

Jim-Minh wrote:

I have seen "khi" and "lúc" used in so many ways but I was never aware of its importance until now. It is the Vietnamese descriptor for relative time.

If you want to practice colloquialism, I encourage you to use  'khi có khi không' and 'lúc có lúc không' (sometimes yes, sometimes no), also  'lúc này [hay] lúc khác',  'khi này [hay] khi khác'  (sometimes this, sometimes that -- but pay attention when using the last two as they do not mean 'this and that').

Those colloquial expressions are gentle, suitable for all audiences, and will be received with appreciation.

The [hay] can be omitted in everyday conversation.

Ciambella wrote:

If you want to practice colloquialism, I encourage you to use  'khi có khi không' and 'lúc có lúc không' (sometimes yes, sometimes no), also  'lúc này [hay] lúc khác',  'khi này [hay] khi khác'  (sometimes this, sometimes that -- but pay attention when using the last two as they do not mean 'this and that').

Those colloquial expressions are gentle, suitable for all audiences, and will be received with appreciation.

Hay lắm !     I have a book on colloquial Vietnamese at home that I need to dust off.

@Jim Minh:  The 'hay' in the expressions I mentioned means 'or', not 'good', OK?

Jim-Minh wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

sanooku wrote:

e.g. I find it hard to pronounce 'Thỉnh thoảng' (sometimes), so after trying, it's not understood, I just use 'đôi khi' (sometimes) instead. 'đôi khi' is much easier to pronounce for me.

That "khi" word seems to be a central ingredient, used with "khi nao" (when/time), "khi" (when this or that) and now "đôi khi", thanks because that's one expression I was in great need of and still missing. I was planning on looking it up.

I had to say "thỉnh thoảng" to Google Translate four times before it understood me. My Viet SO hit it the first time. We are missing something ...

the 'th' sound is quite hard for foreigners. There are lessons on youtube dedicated just on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUbGqjS7AL4

When I first tried google translate it would translate it as 'tính toán' which means 'calculate'. After practicing over and over, and watching the youtube videos, now google translate says 'sometimes'.

The other difficult sound (particularly at the start of learning vietnamese) is 'ng' as in 'người nước ngoài'. But after using it with pretty much everyone i met, it's become easier to pronounce. FOr example, as a joke I'd say 'Toi la người nước ngoài' (when it's pretty obvious I'm a foreigner).

Ciambella wrote:

'Nhiều lúc', and 'nhiều khi' also have the same meaning as 'more often than not'.

The opposite is 'ít' (ít khi: rarely) but 'ít lúc' is not commonly used.

'hiếm khi' is another phrase for 'rarely'.

Seems Vietnamese language have many synonyms to convey same meaning (although I guess a certain word/phrase is more appropriate depending on the audience and to convey mood)

I just learned that there are three ways to say pineapple = trái thơm, trái dứa, trái khóm

'thơm' when used with another word can be used to mean 'scent'. e.g. Nến thơm = scented candles.

Ciambella wrote:

Jim-Minh wrote:

I have seen "khi" and "lúc" used in so many ways but I was never aware of its importance until now. It is the Vietnamese descriptor for relative time.

If you want to practice colloquialism, I encourage you to use  'khi có khi không' and 'lúc có lúc không' (sometimes yes, sometimes no), also  'lúc này [hay] lúc khác',  'khi này [hay] khi khác'  (sometimes this, sometimes that -- but pay attention when using the last two as they do not mean 'this and that').

Those colloquial expressions are gentle, suitable for all audiences, and will be received with appreciation.

The [hay] can be omitted in everyday conversation.

Another phrase for 'sometimes': một lúc nào đó

By the way, can you confirm if 'khi có khi không' means 'sometimes', because when I google translate, it says 'when available'. May be the translation is incorrect.

Perhaps you can give an example sentence on how to use the phrase.

'khi có khi không'

Sometimes yes and sometimes no

sometimes you have it and sometimes you don't

sanooku wrote:

I just learned that there are three ways to say pineapple = trái thơm, trái dứa, trái khóm

'thơm' when used with another word can be used to mean 'scent'. e.g. Nến thơm = scented candles.

What's even more challenging is that some words are used mainly in the North, and some words mainly in the South. How many times have I heard "Yeah but here in the South we don't really use these words".  (bi dau dau)

And if you go to Hue, all bets are off on everything....

Jim-Minh wrote:

And if you go to Hue, all bets are off on everything....

I'll stick to eating their soup from outside 

sanooku wrote:

I just learned that there are three ways to say pineapple = trái thơm, trái dứa, trái khóm

'thơm' when used with another word can be used to mean 'scent'. e.g. Nến thơm = scented candles.

Dứa:  what Northerners call pineapple
Thơm:  what people in the Central and the South call pineapple
Khóm:  what Southerners call pineapple

Quả:  what Northerners call a fruit
Trái:  what the rest of the country call a fruit

Thơm:  not just a scent, but also a good smell (aroma or fragrance).  A bad smell is never called by the word thơm.

sanooku wrote:

By the way, can you confirm if 'khi có khi không' means 'sometimes', because when I google translate, it says 'when available'. May be the translation is incorrect.

Perhaps you can give an example sentence on how to use the phrase.

'When available' is the literal translation of 'khi có khi không', it's not the correct translation.

Examples:

- Các anh chị có đến thăm bác thường xuyên không?
- Khi có khi không.

(- Do your children come to visit you often?
- Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.)

- Tháng này có nhiều khách du quan ở đây không?
- Không nhiều lắm, khi có khi không.

(- Were there many visitors here this month?
- Not too many, sometimes yes sometimes no.)

- Ông làm việc liên tục suốt ngày, ông không bao giờ về nhà ăn trưa à?
- Khi có khi không.

(- You work nonstop all day long; don't you ever go home for lunch?
- Sometimes.)

Well, I need to add my spiced up version:

- Khi em gặp một người đàn ông lần đầu tiên, em có thường về nhà với anh ta không?
- Khi có khi không

Is it good usage of the expression? 

Speaking of literal translation, you'll never be able to find in Google Translate the correct translation of the very popular idiom 'ba chìm bẩy nổi chín lênh đênh'.  I'm giving that to you today as an excellent saying to learn, and I guarantee a positive reaction when the locals hear you using it.

I'm not making it easy for you by giving its meaning here, but I'm sure at least one of you will be able to find out via Google search or even FB.

WillyBaldy wrote:

Well, I need to add my spiced up version:

- Khi em gặp một người đàn ông lần đầu tiên, em có thường về nhà với anh ta không?
- Khi có khi không

Is it good usage of the expression? 

Outstanding, Willy !   

Thanks. Don't you ever sleep sweet Ciambella? 

WillyBaldy wrote:

Don't you ever sleep sweet Ciambella? 

Khi có khi không.   

Actually, I just got home from a whole day spending with the relatives, you know, first day of Tet and all that jazz.  We ate too much, talked too much, laughed too much, played too many traditional Tet games, and brought home too many leftovers. 

I'm all wired up.  Tired but can't sleep.

"Ba chìm bẩy nổi chín lênh đênh"

My life is not stable. Some days are good and some days are not.

Google missed that one by a mile.

Ciambella wrote:

'ba chìm bẩy nổi chín lênh đênh'.

Okay, with a bit of cheating...

"Sunk three times, emerged seven times, adrift nine times".

Describes one person's life challenges, aiming to reach peace of mind but not quite able to reach the end game.

Sounds about right?

WillyBaldy wrote:

Thanks. Don't you ever sleep sweet Ciambella? 

Very smart girl. Almost certainly Vietnamese.

There's a helluva story there I'll bet.

You both are on the right path.  That idiom describes a life that is full of upheavals, arduous, and agonizing.  Even though it's a genderless saying, it somehow has been used for centuries in literature as well as common expression to describe a woman's life more often than it's used for a man, perhaps because Vietnamese women in general suffer a whole lot more than men.

Neither being sunk, nor re-floated, nor tossed mid-stream is pleasant, but being the receiver of all those three acts of Fate repeatedly is beyond tolerable.

I should be the last one to say off topic but isn't the exchanging of colloquialisms in writing kind of missing the point, which should be are you pronouncing it well enough. If you used it in the market, you should be immediately understood.  Jim, Willy and Sanooko should approach a fruit seller that they have never purchased from before, ask to buy a pineapple and see how these phrases work.

My wife is from Ben tre but her mother is from close to Hanoi.  She says trái dứa, which seems to me to be a mixing of Northern and Southern word choices.  She did agree that Southerners say Thơm for pineapple but also said, as Ciambella alluded to, that you use pineapples on the altar for the thơm.

Let's all go out and buy pineapples.  I could add that in Hawaii, arguably the land of the pineapple, younger and urban people may say pineapple but many country people and those with any association with the industry just say "pine."

Ciambella wrote:

You both are on the right path.  That idiom describes a life that is full of upheavals, arduous, and agonizing.  Even though it's a genderless saying, it somehow has been used for centuries in literature as well as common expression to describe a woman's life more often than it's used for a man, perhaps because Vietnamese women in general suffer a whole lot more than men.

Neither being sunk, nor re-floated, nor tossed mid-stream is pleasant, but being the receiver of all those three acts of Fate repeatedly is beyond tolerable.

The idiom is still valid but not so much as it once was. It used to apply mostly to Vietnamese women who were at the whims of Vietnamese men. The women had little control over their lives and suffered greatly. Someday watch The Scent of Green Papaya for a good example of this. I am sure that is just a mild example.

Ciambella wrote:

sanooku wrote:

I just learned that there are three ways to say pineapple = trái thơm, trái dứa, trái khóm

'thơm' when used with another word can be used to mean 'scent'. e.g. Nến thơm = scented candles.

Dứa:  what Northerners call pineapple
Thơm:  what people in the Central and the South call pineapple
Khóm:  what Southerners call pineapple

Quả:  what Northerners call a fruit
Trái:  what the rest of the country call a fruit

Thơm:  not just a scent, but also a good smell (aroma or fragrance).  A bad smell is never called by the word thơm.

In English 'scent' usually refers to a good smell. A bad smell is called an 'odour' (odor=american spelling) as in 'body odour'.   

Take the movie 'scent of a woman'. It probably wouldn't have done as well at the box office if it was called 'the smell/odour of a woman'.

Also, 'scented candles' are called that because the candles when burned give a pleasant smell. I've not come across any scented candles that give a bad smell. So, if 'scents' give good OR bad smells, maybe the candles should be called 'fragrant' candles or 'perfume' candles instead.

THIGV wrote:

......
My wife is from Ben tre but her mother is from close to Hanoi.  She says trái dứa, which seems to me to be a mixing of Northern and Southern word choices.  She did agree that Southerners say Thơm for pineapple but also said, as Ciambella alluded to, that you use pineapples on the altar for the thơm.
....

Took the words right out of my mouth - I was just going to ask about mixing trái with the northern or central dialect equivalent of pineapple to make trái dứa or trái khóm. Seems it can be done. Although probably not advisable for writing etc.

While you guys discuss pineapples, the family of my girlfriend is actually busy sending a bunch to Saigon 

Ciambella wrote:

You both are on the right path.  That idiom describes a life that is full of upheavals, arduous, and agonizing.  Even though it's a genderless saying, it somehow has been used for centuries in literature as well as common expression to describe a woman's life more often than it's used for a man, perhaps because Vietnamese women in general suffer a whole lot more than men.

Neither being sunk, nor re-floated, nor tossed mid-stream is pleasant, but being the receiver of all those three acts of Fate repeatedly is beyond tolerable.

According to this source:
http://vietnamsuhoc.com/PrintPreview.aspx?id=23

...Thân thế "3 chìm 7 nổi" xuất phát từ câu thành ngữ "3 chìm 7 nổi 9 lênh đênh" (nguồn gốc câu thành ngữ này là từ quan niệm 3 hồn 7 vía, 9 vía) để diễn đạt cái thân phận con người long đong, lận đận, chìm nổi trong cuộc đời con người mà với đàn ông thì dùng "3 chìm 7 nổi", với đàn bà thì dùng "3 chìm 9 lênh đênh."....

from what I can gather, it's saying, for men use: sunk three times, emerged seven times.

for women: sunk three times, adrift nine times.

Very long thread so perhaps this has already been said.
But I have found that for the Thai language, showing that you could write help a lot.
If someone was not understanding, I would start writing, seeing that I could write magically they would start to understand what I was saying.
Mind you learning to read and write Thai is relatively unknown so I am not sure that this would work in Vietnam.
I suppose that foreigner that can speak can write too.

Of course written Vietnamese works but just try communicating in your language in writing - not realistic when you want a conversation. I try a variety of methods and have some success especially if the Vietnamese person realizes you are trying to speak Vietnamese. Also trying various tones can help; for instance the other day in the supermarket  looking for milk, "sữa" I tried to say it with different emotions and it worked. If I can't remember the tone, pronouncing like a question can do the trick. Love learning Vietnamese and will never finish.

I do believe wrote:

Of course written Vietnamese works but just try communicating in your language in writing - not realistic when you want a conversation. I try a variety of methods and have some success especially if the Vietnamese person realizes you are trying to speak Vietnamese. Also trying various tones can help; for instance the other day in the supermarket  looking for milk, "sữa" I tried to say it with different emotions and it worked. If I can't remember the tone, pronouncing like a question can do the trick. Love learning Vietnamese and will never finish.

The funniest way to learn pronunciation when I was with my ex Vietnamese wife was to pick a few words that are pronounced similarly but with different tones, for example "Seven big grapefruits" (Bảy bưởi bự). I'd repeat the sentence a hundred times a day. Yesterday I saw her and practiced repeating "Is it free yet?" (chưa chùa). This can be very efficient but you need a Vietnamese to correct your pronunciation until you get it right.

I once saw a list of words that used what must have been every vowel and every tone with the same first and last consonants.  It was an example of how tone changes meaning.  If anyone can dig up that list it would be interesting to look at.

Does anyone know how to say in Vietnamese:

Where did you take that sample?

To give some context, picture yourself asking a friend/colleague where she took a sample drawing. i.e. to a client/customer.

On duolingo it says:

Bạn lấy mẫu vật đó ở đâu?

Although, how does this differentiate between 'taking' (present tense), and 'took' (past tense). The sentence does not have ‘đã’ or ‘đang’.

Is it not essential in Vietnamese to differentiate this, if it's obvious from the context?. i.e. colleague has just come back after dropping off sample at client.

Also, in Vietnamese I noticed that the word 'lấy' is used for both 'get' and 'take'. However, when asking for something, I've often used 'cho tôi to mean 'give me'. e.g. Làm ơn đưa cho tôi cái bút đó (please may I have/borrow that pen). Actually, I think 'cho em/anh' is more affectionate.

By the way, if I want to say 'where did you get that sample', would the Vietnamese sentence be:

Bạn lấy mẫu vật đó ở đâu?

So, the same as 'where did you take that sample?'.

Couldn't this cause confusion if my colleague has picked up a sample from a client (and also dropped one off at another client), and she thinks that I'm asking where she picked up the sample (she is holding in her hand) when actually I'm asking where she dropped off the last sample.

sanooku

Pretty advanced question but since most Vietnamese don't understand Vietnamese I doubt you will get a usable answer.