Robbed/Scammed By Farmer's Market Vendor

I've had similar experience, not in Ecuador.

I had negotiated for a fat and pretty head of celery from the woman vendor. We agreed on the price and I pulled the money from pocket to give to her. She grabbed my hand, demanded a higher price, pitched a fit, and began berating me for cheating her in front of the market crowd. I kept tight hold of my money, handed her celery back to her, and refused to negotiate or be humiliated.

However this was a market where I did my weekly shopping for many years. Ever after that I avoided the aisle on which her stall was located and never did business with her or any of her vendor next door neighbors ever again. EVER. She was a cheat and that was that. Lesson learned. Chances are that her neighbor vendors were cheats as well. I think in the next three years I literally never walked down that vendor aisle again.

Several things:

**When shopping in an open market separate your cash before leaving home. Small bills and change in one pocket neatly arranged so you know where every single bill and penny is. Larger bills in a different pocket. Never pull out of your pocket more money than the agreed upon price of the exchange. Remove from your pocket only the exact amount of currency for the price of the product. This requires a bit pre-arranging before a shopping trip.

**When shopping in an open market try to avoid stalls without posted prices. Even though you may pay a bit more form a more formal stall with price signage, as a foreigner you will save money in the long run.

** Have a fairly firm idea of what you are willing to pay for something. If you can't get it at a price you consider reasonable, leave without it. You lived without it before, you can do it again. Walk.away.

!*****!Slap the crap out of anybody who puts their hand in your pocket. Nobody defends a pickpocket, this is a near universal rule. Nobody will come to a pickpocket's aid, especially in the area of an open market. Outwitting a buyer is skill of wits every vendor is engaged in - stealing is thievery. Everybody hates a thief, including other vendors.

**Don't set yourself up to be a victim, be prepared to be a junkyard dog if need be. Growl, yell, threaten, be the bigger dog. Vendors will take advantage of you if they think they can get away with it. Don't let them get away with one dadgum thing. Call them out and make a stink.

Your experience has nothing to do with Ecuador and everything to do with open markets, worldwide. And I found the Ecuadorans fairly polite in overcharging me, quite nice really. Try the middle east - believe me it gets far worse.

Sorry for your unpleasant experience. Consider just another notch in the life experience of live and learn. Don't be discouraged, just increase your personal vigilance of how you handle these kinds of transactions. Everything is a learning curve.

There are those who say we learn from our failures, not from successes. Chin up and tomorrow will be a better day.

wlae84 wrote:

I have decided to change the following:...Once sale is initiated (e.g. asking the price) then don't wait for their approval to take the product. Do what feels natural. That usually means taking the product and putting in my bag and handing the money. If the vendor turns away, don't wait for them to be looking in order to take the product. That just shows weakness and communicates that I feel that I am not enough to be trusted....

The attitude expressed in this paragraph doesn't pass the smell test.

You're adding drama where you should be subtracting it.

This isn't Mission Impossible.  It's a fruit market.

Better for you to work with the frutera each step of the process, and if she looks away, wait a few seconds to make sure she understands what you're doing.

It could easily be assumed by a vendor that you are being overly forward in sticking produce in your bag before she has clearly agreed to the sale at a mutually-agreed price.

Misunderstandings are always possible where language and customs are a barrier.  Assuming the worst intentions on the part of the frutera, therefore, could be an error.   Based on what you wrote, it's conceivable that -- right or wrong -- she thought YOU were scamming HER.

You may have recently graduated from the Expat honeymoon phase and into the frustration phase.  If so, restrict your shopping to places where you feel most comfortable for a while until you get your bearings straight.

If the cashier at that indoor market gave you too many coins, it could be because she believed she had no choice.  When your Spanish is stronger, you may find you can sometimes fix situations such as this through language.

cccmedia in Quito

cccmedia wrote:

Better for you to work with the frutera each step of the process, and if she looks away, wait a few seconds to make sure she understands what you're doing.


cccmedia in Quito

This is exactly what I did. In fact I waited 1-2 min. for her to look back WHICH BASICALLY SAID I'M A TOOL.

Next time if she turns away, then I either 1) Walk away 2) put 5 oranges in my bag give her the 50 cents whether she's looking or not (she knows damn well I'm there) and just walk away without ever communicating the need for her approval.

And finally, I know 100% this was no accident. It was definitely deliberate. I guess it could be tough to really understand the situation unless you were there. But she just flat out got me like it was game.

And, the other incidents have happened too often to be coincidences. I'm well aware that tiendas or even big chains like Tia can be short on change.

I was in tienda once and gave the guy  $10 for about $3 in fruit and he tried to stiff me on change continually (he pretended that I gave him $5...and this has actually happened a few times but never escalated as far as this guy when I called him out). I got aggressive on him and luckily there were English-speaking locals in the store who actually stood up for me and saw what he was doing so he had to give me the correct change. Was this an accident too? We went back and forth like 4-5 times until maximum pressure was put on him.

Again, it happens very often which is why I avoid going out unless absolutely necessary.

And far as exaggeration, the only thing I exaggerated slightly was the change thing. But it's happened so many times. I didn't actually get 50 coins for $4 in change. I got more like 20-25 coins. This just happened a couple days ago. And, I can't tell you how many times I've been given 20-25 coins for change in the range of $1-$1.50.

You seem to be having a lot of bad luck. I've never had much of a problem with markets or shops. I did get in a little fight with a thief of a taxi driver once when he doubled the agreed upon price after the fact and refused to give me my change.

It sounds to me like you need an Ecuadorian friend to go shopping with you a few times to establish a relationship with vendors you can trust. It also sounds like you might be living in an area with too many gringos where some of the locals are becoming hostile or resentful.

jessekimmerling wrote:

I did get in a little fight with a thief of a taxi driver once when he doubled the agreed upon price after the fact and refused to give me my change.

This happens all too often.  The taxistas haven't gotten a boost in rates in a long time and some of them apparently feel justified in making their own rules:  changing the negotiated fee due to traffic delays..."adjusting" their meters to run fast...refusing to use taximetros at all, even during daytime.

If the driver boosts the fee, one method that has worked is this:  Don't argue with him.  When you arrive at your destination, pay him the exact fee that was negotiated.  Keep moving.

cccmedia in Quito

cccmedia wrote:

If the driver boosts the fee, one method that has worked is this:  Don't argue with him.  When you arrive at your destination, pay him the exact fee that was negotiated.  Keep moving.

Stepping outside an EC cab before paying has become so second-nature to me, that I didn't think to include it as one of the steps in this process.  It should be included.

You do not want yourself or your property to be still inside the taxi when you pay under this circumstance.  You do not want to give the taxista the opportunity to move his vehicle with you inside it during a potential disagreement, especially since you have already arrived at your destination.

cccmedia in Quito

In this particular situation both me and the driver were on the sidewalk. I've contemplated the tactic of simply refusing to exit the cab until the driver gives up.

jessekimmerling wrote:

In this particular situation both me and the driver were on the sidewalk. I've contemplated the tactic of simply refusing to exit the cab until the driver gives up.

First mistake... anywhere in South America if you're going to take a taxi estimate the cost of the trip and have exactly that amount ready to pay separated from your other cash. Once the fare is agreed upon that's what you pay, end of story! You used a banknote larger than the agreed fare and thus you were stuck. Otherwise you could have simply handed the driver the fare agreed upon and walked away. Which is exactly what should be done in this situation.

Refusing to leave the cab is pretty risky. You run the risk of the driver simply speeding off and taking you to the other side of town and then having the first cop he can find remove you (by force if necessary) from the taxi and leave you far from your destination.

If this sort of thing happens with alarming regularity in other SA countries (and trust me it does), then I'm sure it also happens in EC. Sounds to me like your strategy has a fatal flaw.

Cheers,
James     Expat-blog Experts Team

You guys crack me up with your advice to have exact change. Of course it's good advice when possible, I'm sure each and every one of you has been caught more than once with nothing but larger bills and no go place or way to change them before taking a taxi.

We each have our own ways of dealing with thieves and dangerous situations. My experience has taught me that most aggressive people respond much like an aggressive dog. Show fear and you encourage their aggression.

Just to add to the "caveat emptor" theme...recently, while taking a cab in Quito, the driver asked if I wd be willing to change his $20 Bill for 2 $10. So being the trusty Canadian, I obliged...only to find out later at the restaurant, when I tried to use the $20 Bill to pay for my meal, the waiter patiently told me: Señor, es falso... I.e. Counterfeit.
And it is frustrating if you do not take enough change or small bills for everyday transactions. Just my thoughts.

jessekimmerling wrote:

Show fear and you encourage their aggression.

Direct confrontation, however, can provoke their aggression, too.

Even though the taxista is in the wrong, sometimes it is better to "pay the man the two dollars" rather than risk the type of scenario James described where you end up across town in a police incident.

I experienced two incidents in New York City where rogue cabbies exited their cabs (which were still in active traffic!) and chased me or tracked me down.  Going forward, I expect I would pay the 'two bucks' to avoid the possibility of violence that an irate driver presents.

cccmedia in Quito

jessekimmerling wrote:

We each have our own ways of dealing with thieves and dangerous situations. My experience has taught me that most aggressive people respond much like an aggressive dog. Show fear and you encourage their aggression.

Do yourself a very big favor, and never come to visit Brazil if that's your logic.... it will get you the "big dirt sleep" here. In this country the bandidos will kill you just for the pure fun of it. Used to be a time when if you didn't react in any way at all you stood a fair chance of coming out alive. Not anymore!!!

James wrote:

jessekimmerling wrote:

We each have our own ways of dealing with thieves and dangerous situations. My experience has taught me that most aggressive people respond much like an aggressive dog. Show fear and you encourage their aggression.

Do yourself a very big favor, and never come to visit Brazil if that's your logic.... it will get you the "big dirt sleep" here. In this country the bandidos will kill you just for the pure fun of it. Used to be a time when if you didn't react in any way at all you stood a fair chance of coming out alive. Not anymore!!!

Dude, 3 years private contracting in Afghanistan, most of it outside the wire. I graduated high school in the mid 90's. My city was the murder per capita capitol of the U.S. in 1990. Go lecture someone else. I'm a survivor.

I know a few ex-Marines who thought that down here too... went home in a box. You have absolutely no idea how little life is worth down here. Being a "survivor" means actually living to talk about it. But what the Hell.... SEMPER FI

James wrote:

I know a few ex-Marines who thought that down here too... went home in a box. You have absolutely no idea how little life is worth down here. Being a "survivor" means actually living to talk about it. But what the Hell.... SEMPER FI

You speak of what you do not know.

James wrote:

I know a few ex-Marines who thought that down here too... went home in a box. You have absolutely no idea how little life is worth down here. Being a "survivor" means actually living to talk about it. But what the Hell.... SEMPER FI

Your comparison of everything to Brazil - of which we have no interest - is tiresome.  Notice how you're the biggest thread-killer on the Ecuador forum?  You make a point and everyone (usually) goes quiet.  Please.  Figure it out!  I mean this is the best possible way.

When in Rome!! However when in Ecuador----learn spanish!! It is the official language!

I Think you have to approach Ecuador with a different set of rules .   I find this works really good for me
    One I put a higher value on my personal  peace than I do on 50 cents being paid twice.
First off always consider its probably an Innocent mistake many times its is.  Have fun with it and you will usually get them laughing with you.
    One time  I paid ten dollars for my phone walked outside the store and wala no  time on Phone .  I went back in store
and could not get my ten bucks    ..   Were they Crooks no the poor little girl running the shop did not know how to get the money on the wrong Phone back .   I saw the fear in her eyes and i let it go few days later I had to get more time .
      I go in the store pay for the time walk outside and there is ten dollars more than what I paid on my phone.
               She remembered me and  she figured out how to fix it after I left .    You must remember some of these people are very simple folks .  I Have lived in Ecuador  4 years and have never really had a problem as long as you engage the issue in a friendly manner.   Assume the best and the best often appears

Hey--uh--get a handle --not every Ecuadorian is a shithead --nor every gringo. I grant you this appears to be a money grabbing place and I hate that myself. But imagine you are yourself in your country trying to make a living. Along comes all the wealthy immigrants - from the middle east, asia, god knows where else---really working the system--bringing over their relatives to live off the government--ie--taxes--taking free classes when they drive fabulous cars and live in expensive houses. Now--that is a rip off.
As for allowing someone to touch your person--a quick slap is enough in every language. Settle down--there is a lot fo unpleasant stuff everywhere but if you want to go abck to beer guzzling fat assholes--by all means --go!

Hey--h--its me again--fool --not tool--wink!

How serious a smoker is your cat?? LOL!

My girlfriend (whom is an Ecuadorian) and I took a cab just the other day. The fare was only $1.40 on the meter so I happily gave him $1.50 as I did not have anything smaller and I didn't really care about the extra $.10. He probably could use it. Anyway, my girlfriend started in on him big time calling him a thief. She wouldn't let up. We got out of the cab and she started to write down his cab number. The cabby noticed this and became concerned and tried to get her to reconsider. She wasn't having any of it. We walked across the street to the restaurant we were going to and shortly he comes into the restaurant and pleads with my girlfriend to forgive him and take the $.10. Nope. She refused and again attacked him for this wrong. He finally walked away frustrated. I guess he might reconsider doing this in future (at least whenever there is an Ecuadorian woman involved).   

Oh, and I went to the market by myself once and got taken, but only because I didn't know what I really should be paying for the items. When my girlfriend goes with me, believe me, that NEVER happens.

I was visiting a friend that lived in Quito years ago. He had lived there for a year and knew his way around. We were riding a bus a good distance (Cunuyacu). When the cobrador quoted him the price for the fare he got involved in a spirited discussion with him claiming the quoted price was two cents! higher than it should have been as he took the route frequently. He did not pay the two cents and felt victorious. When we arrived at our "stop" we both had to jump off the bus that was moving way too fast as the driver was expressing his opinion on the way the fare had been negotiated by failing to stop and not really going slow enough to allow us safely off! He (my friend) was not an Ecuadorian!

MikeGB, you've got the right values.  Nobody needs to make a federal case out of a ten-centavo change issue, especially when it's easily explainable as a small tip.

Good for you for not over-reacting to her attitude, so things didn't further escalate.  From The Largisimo's post, you can see how things can spin out of control over a couple of centavos.

cccmedia in Quito

I am happy to say I have never had this experience, although, one time I felt the cashier at the market did not give back the proper change, I had already put it in my pocket mixed with other coin and I decided it was my responsibility to have counted it beforehand.
My philosophy is to NEVER criticize, condemn or complain and always show the same courtesy to the locals as they show to us.
Everyone in my barrio knows who I am and I acknowledge them by name whether it is a business owner or neighbor. I emphasize with the businesses and especially the taxi drivers and always give more than is required on the meter.
We cannot change what government does to make life difficult for gringos and locals alike but we can show respect and appreciation for the comfort and security that this country affords us.

Where did this happen what market?

Yea, us poor foreigners always want to steal veggies.

The Largisimo wrote:

When we arrived at our "stop" we both had to jump off the bus that was moving way too fast as the driver was expressing his opinion on the way the fare had been negotiated by failing to stop and not really going slow enough to allow us to get off safely.

The moral of The Largisimo's cautionary tale is this...

You may be able to mess around with vendors at the fruit market without repercussion.  But when it comes to someone who has your life in his hands, show respect.

When the "cobrador" -- literally the 'collector,' the driver's right-hand man -- was 'dissed,' the driver apparently felt disrespected too.  And like the "old lady" who poked at 84's pants pocket, in the absence of a common verbal language, the driver absurdly showed his disapproval in what Gringos would consider an inappropriate way.

Fortunately, in the bus instance, the results were not tragic.

cccmedia in Quito

Just stick to mega maxi then.

Must have been some damn good oranges.
I'm sure y'all have more experience than I but I have found the Ecuadorians far friendlier than some those contributing to this blog.  Of course its not the bloggers fault.  Americans are raised with a sense of entitlement Ecuadorians just don't have.  If you put those oranges in this context and think about it for awhile maybe those oranges weren't so damn good after all or at least not all that important..
I think I saw someone mention survivor.  We all try to do it one way or another.
I remember on my first visit to Ecuador, my friend who is a native Ecuadorian parked his car and gave some money to woman walking around.  I asked if you were supposed to pay for parking in that spot.  He said "no" and it is illegal for that woman to be collecting money for it.  Then why?  Because if you don't you might not be very happy with what you find when you return to your car.  This was ordinary and normal for him.  I shrugged it off as an interesting part of the culture.  If you are going to have a nervous breakdown over a few oranges Ecuador is probably not the place for you.

JadeRiver wrote:

Must have been some damn good oranges.
I'm sure y'all have more experience than I but I have found the Ecuadorians far friendlier than some those contributing to this blog.  Of course its not the bloggers fault.  Americans are raised with a sense of entitlement Ecuadorians just don't have.  If you put those oranges in this context and think about it for awhile maybe those oranges weren't so damn good after all or at least not all that important..
I think I saw someone mention survivor.  We all try to do it one way or another.
I remember on my first visit to Ecuador, my friend who is a native Ecuadorian parked his car and gave some money to woman walking around.  I asked if you were supposed to pay for parking in that spot.  He said "no" and it is illegal for that woman to be collecting money for it.  Then why?  Because if you don't you might not be very happy with what you find when you return to your car.  This was ordinary and normal for him.  I shrugged it off as an interesting part of the culture.  If you are going to have a nervous breakdown over a few oranges Ecuador is probably not the place for you.

This may be true, but out-and-out stealing is not acceptable in any country or culture. And that appears to have been the case with the original poster.

I consider losing a few cents or dollars in Ecuador as nothing compared to the "legal thievery" that goes on where we gringos came from.  When I go to a store to buy, I make sure to cash my bills higher than $5, and always have loads of change.  I use a coin purse with two zippers, not my pocket, for carrying change, and separate my Susan B. Anthony dollars from the rest of the change.  Jackets with zipper pockets work, too.

There was an article in a local paper about trolley gangs of thieves who steal from you ever so daintily, you don;t notice until later.  I try to sit or stand at the very back or upfront close to the driver.  My pockets have only used tissues in them.  I use a zippered "fanny pack" turned to the front covered by a light jacket.  So far so good.

And I believe in showing the respect to others that I want shown to me... and I stay in at night.

Hope this helps.

"This may be true, but out-and-out stealing is not acceptable in any country or culture. And that appears to have been the case with the original poster."

Hmmm Canada (I love Canada BTW) that explains it.  You have not experienced the US.

JadeRiver wrote:

"This may be true, but out-and-out stealing is not acceptable in any country or culture. And that appears to have been the case with the original poster."

Hmmm Canada (I love Canada BTW) that explains it.  You have not experienced the US.

Canada has nothing to do with anything in this pretense. And just for your information, stealing occurs in Canada just as it does in lots of other countries in the world.

Stealing is not correct in ANY culture. PERIOD!!!!

MikeGB wrote:

JadeRiver wrote:

"This may be true, but out-and-out stealing is not acceptable in any country or culture. And that appears to have been the case with the original poster."

Hmmm Canada (I love Canada BTW) that explains it.  You have not experienced the US.

Canada has nothing to do with anything in this pretense. And just for your information, stealing occurs in Canada just as it does in lots of other countries in the world.

Stealing is not correct in ANY culture. PERIOD!!!!

I guess you have never subscribed to cable TV.

JadeRiver wrote:

MikeGB wrote:

JadeRiver wrote:

"This may be true, but out-and-out stealing is not acceptable in any country or culture. And that appears to have been the case with the original poster."

Hmmm Canada (I love Canada BTW) that explains it.  You have not experienced the US.

Canada has nothing to do with anything in this pretense. And just for your information, stealing occurs in Canada just as it does in lots of other countries in the world.

Stealing is not correct in ANY culture. PERIOD!!!!

I guess you have never subscribed to cable TV.

This conversation is dumb and I am done with it.

JadeRiver wrote:

I asked if you were supposed to pay for parking in that spot.  He said "no" and it is illegal for that woman to be collecting money for it.  Then why?  Because if you don't you might not be very happy with what you find when you return to your car.  This was ordinary and normal for him.  I shrugged it off as an interesting part of the culture.

Reminds me of parking near 21st & Lehigh to see the Phillies in Connie Mack Stadium.  Back in the 60's such "security" cost a quarter, and you did not want to see the results of not paying.  Now you pay $10 to legally park at the stadium, quite the inflation.

JadeRiver wrote:

Must have been some damn good oranges....Americans are raised with a sense of entitlement Ecuadorians just don't have...If you are going to have a nervous breakdown over a few oranges, Ecuador is probably not the place for you.

Oranges are five for a dollar where I usually buy them -- the Santa Clara market in Quito.  There are many fruit and vegetable stalls in this large indoor market, and everybody's speaking in español.

If you put 50 centavos on the "mostrador" and stick five oranges in your bag, you may encounter more "excitement" than you might enjoy.

The oranges I've been finding lately at Santa Clara are nice 'n sweet, and IMO well worth 20 centavos apiece.

cccmedia in Quito

Hi everybody,

Please avoid picking fights on the forum please and please make sure that the information being shared are really constructive and useful.

Thanks

Priscilla