Hungary Business Immigration / Hungarian Language

this must be some sort of joke ? right/  You are going to learn hungarian and start a business ,all in one year?! You obviously have not any idea of the hungarian language. If you study hard,perhaps in 10 years you might have a basic knowledge of it,Contact me when you're ready

well Its true that, I dont have an idea about Hungarian language , But what about business , do u think its difficult to do business in hungary as well ?

makoxford wrote:

well Its true that, I dont have an idea about Hungarian language , But what about business , do u think its difficult to do business in hungary as well ?

Operating a small to medium sized business anywhere is difficult. Nearly impossible if you do not speak the language of your potential customers. Operating a Bed and Breakfast for foreign tourists is something to avoid having Hungarian speaking customers.

It is quite clear you are mainly just interested in getting  an EU residency visa. And the Hungarian entrepreneur visa is "on paper" one of the easiest and cheapest. And if Hungary has this visa type I think you have every right to try to legally exploit it. But be aware that local reality is different. Many Hungarians I know with small businesses are struggling, and some I know are going out of business. Some are giving up and moving abroad.

I do not know of any local Coptic communities or busineses. There are Muslim communities, and I know of one Egyptian restaurant in Budapest. Maybe you can contact one of these businesses for any input or their experiences of the businesses climate in Hungary:

http://halalplaces.org/hu/bu/budapest/

In entrepreneur visa is there any restrictions on the type of business?for example catering or restaurant would be accepted?i am asking this because Italy entrepreneur visa for example requires that the business must be innovative and a lot of other things.
Thanks a lot for all of you

Thanks klsallee for the reply ,

you always comes up with good and helpful information.I want to move and want to have Resident permit with true intention of having business. The thing is that I have been to UK lots of times. But dont have any  Idea about rest of EU countries, Hungary is indeed a good and affordable option so my mind comesup with lots of questions , coz losing hard earning money is always like a nightmare specially for someone with kids.

Trying to explore more and dreaming of minimum risk, thats all

aletreby wrote:

In entrepreneur visa is there any restrictions on the type of business?

I for one do not know. A good question for an attorney.

From what I have read online, and from the very obtuse laws I have had translated (which is absolutely not all inclusive) my impression is there are two main issues: A good business plan showing why Hungarian residency is essential to run the business, and the business should not take Hungarian jobs (so if your business plan includes hiring Hungarians, more the better).

Thanks alot

makoxford wrote:

Trying to explore more and dreaming of minimum risk

A good business mentality.

But..... Working hard in Hungary need not result in success here. I would not call it a meritocracy.

More often than not, It is "who" you know, not what you know or how hard you work.

And "who" you know is all about your relationships to family and friends, not uncommonly started with whom you went to primary school, or if you are on the same amateur football team. If your best friend from 6th grade gets ahead (such as a government position), favors can start to roll in for you. This is not new. A Hungarian author, Móricz Zsigmond, even wrote a book about it called "Relations" in the 1930's. This was even one of the first Hungarian books my wife gave me to read (it is available in English) which was of great help in "understanding" Hungary.

Of course, this "good old boy" system exists everywhere in the world but in Hungary, being a relatively small country, its effects are more strongly felt. The "Seven Degrees of Separation" in Hungary is more like "Two Degrees of Separation". This can affect both your business and social interactions.

The Hungarian legal system is also very obtuse, and at times counterproductive for small businesses. I have seen those interpreting the laws here in a way that really boggles my mind. No, it is not fair, but that is local reality.

I have heard that the IT sector in Hungary is quite good. I've hired 2 programmers from there and bot were quite good.

I have American clients that I serve for their custom programming needs. My costs here in the states are out of control. Programmer from many other countries are not doing a thorough job. So, my thoughts are to form a company in Hungary and hire Hungarian programmers.

There appears to be another opportunity and that is to buy condo's in great areas and rent them out Air BNB style.
The corporation can own the condo's where it would appear that I cannot.

I would greatly appreciate any feedback on my ideas.

I would especially appreciate it if anyone living in Budapest could tell me "The Real Deal" on the safety of the different numbered districts. Or if there are other threads you know of on this I would be obliged.

Thank you, Patrick

Enfusia wrote:

The corporation can own the condo's where it would appear that I cannot.

You can own an apartment without any problems.  You will however need permission from the local government if you are not an EU/EFTA citizen. For apartments this is rarely withheld if you are a cash buyer and it's not in say, a national park or some sensitive place. Houses can be more problematic (careful about the boundaries).   If you buy an apartment via a company, then you can register for VAT and claim your expenses but you'd have to issue official receipts etc for renting it out.  You could probably not do this remotely but you could hire an agent to take care of it all for you.  Lawyers will sort out the purchase permission issue.

There are risks with doing business with anyone here, perhaps more so than other places.  There's quite a lot of discussion about this in the HU forum.   BTW, never buy any property with liens, debts, mortgages or with any kind of joint ownership whatsoever.  The latter case is truly a disaster waiting to happen. Nearly everyone I know who has shared ownership properties ends up with lots of trouble.  There's a saying here that two people can agree about some issue but if there's three, then it'll descend into squabbling.

I don't know about now but some years ago, programmers needed a high level of supervision than in other countries. But there are indeed some very successful IT companies here - Graphisoft being one of them that comes to mind easily enough. I should think the new generation is entirely a different type of professional.

Enfusia wrote:

I would especially appreciate it if anyone living in Budapest could tell me "The Real Deal" on the safety of the different numbered districts. Or if there are other threads you know of on this I would be obliged.

I like Districts, II, IIA, III and XII.  That's 2, 2A, 3 and 12. We use Roman numerals here for the districts usually.  All of these are on the hilly Buda side.  Pest is less popular and "rich".  If you want seasonal tourist traffic, it's got to be district I.  That's district 1 and is the bit around the Castle area.  There's almost no parking.  But in any case, you can look at Budapest on Google Streetview.  The districts I mentioned are the "burbs".

Thank you Fluffy 2560

Greatly appreciated.

If I can own real estate then I have a question.

I've seen a site where they say that they will provide the documents and file them so that if I buy a place I also get a residency permit.
Is this true or a is this a scam?

If it's NOT a scam, would you happen to know;
1. The amount that must be purchased in real estate?

2. Any super reputable firms that handle this?

I would buy property and let/rent it out and get a rental for ourselves. For 2 reasons.
1. We are 5 people. My wife, my daughter, my father, her mother and myself. Plus I need an office in the home. So, I've not seen to many 5 bedroom flats with 250 meters or more of space. That would be the reason for a house rental.

2. I would want to really live in BP for at least a year before having enough (claimed) knowledge to know where I really wanted to live.

I appreciate any feedback anyone has.

Thank you, Patrick

Have You considered a partnership with someone in Hungary who already has residency? The Contract could enlist the other partner as a "in-active partner" with no operative power within the Company. I am willing to discuss this with you.

Enfusia wrote:

If I can own real estate then I have a question.

I've seen a site where they say that they will provide the documents and file them so that if I buy a place I also get a residency permit.
Is this true or a is this a scam?

I dont know about that but I don't think it sounds at all right. There's no link I know of between buying a place and obtaining a residence permit as an individual.  To buy a property, you simply contract to buy it with the owners and pay the money (using a lawyer to sort the paperwork).  There's always a risk (however small) that you would not receive permission to purchase in which case you make sure your money is returnable.  If you have an EU/EFTA passport of any kind (or can get one), then you do not need permission.  You can of course form a corporation of which you are the owner, obtain a work permit via that. Perhaps this is what they are referring to. But one needs a lot of money to do that.

Enfusia wrote:

I would buy property and let/rent it out and get a rental for ourselves. For 2 reasons.
1. We are 5 people. .....many 5 bedroom flats with 250 meters or more of space. That would be the reason for a house rental.

2. I would want to really live in BP for at least a year before having enough (claimed) knowledge to know where I really wanted to live.

The demographics here are different.  Most people live in small apartments as they do not have money for anything larger and not many people have lots of kids etc. Indeed, you would have to rent a house to get that kind of area.  If searching,  you need to look for the number of rooms, not the number of bedrooms because that's how they describe it via real estate agents. 

What you can do is look for a "two generation" ("ket generacio") house. This is a large property divided into two apartments for parents and adult children and their families.  There are even "three generation" houses.  If looking for one house, the price rises considerably.  In the past I've looked at "two generation" houses with a view to making it into one house but sometimes the layouts are just two awkward to do that. Quite frustrating.

I think you would find it quite difficult to rent out a very large property.  It's a small market and no locals would rent, they would always prefer to own their own houses.  Foreigners coming on assignments or diplomats might rent it but it's a small pool.

Checking out the areas to live in is very wise indeed.

BTW, try this web site:

Large Houses for Sale in Budapest

Always check out who you are giving a business plan to. I would never give out a business plan for  it is your original intellectual property. There are some operators who collect business plans,in the hope to fall upon a blueprint worth copying,however i have never heard of an overseas Incorporation Company that ever asked for a clients business plan.
    The only appropriate business plan requests would be from a Government office,or from an Investor,and thet latter would definitely be required to sign a Confidentiality agreement,in my book.

Enfusia wrote:

if I buy a place I also get a residency permit.
Is this true or a is this a scam?

American citizens do not get a residency permit for simply buying a residence in Hungary.

There is an "investor visa" program, but that then assumes the real estate (in entirety) would be the business venture. A home office does not count.

Enfusia wrote:

I would buy property and let/rent it out and get a rental for ourselves.

In the investor visa program you must prove why you need to be in the country to do this. Since there are many management agencies who could manage rental only properties for you, I would expect it would be an uphill battle to get this approved normally.

Enfusia wrote:

We are 5 people. My wife, my daughter, my father, her mother and myself

Non-dependent family members (i.e. Father and Mother) may need to get their own visas.

Enfusia wrote:

I would want to really live in BP for at least a year before having enough (claimed) knowledge to know where I really wanted to live.

This is smart.

Enfusia wrote:

So, my thoughts are to form a company in Hungary and hire Hungarian programmers.

My personal experience (other's "mileage" may differ):

Employee laws are very strong in Hungary, and it can be difficult to fire someone. From my experience, someone who is a great independent contractor, once hired knows how hard it will be to get rid of them and their output quality drops. Better to stay with short term contracts with independent contractors. It is also cheaper. Employee costs for each employee in Hungary can be quite a lot. And I have seen too many employees here that will take their vacation and "sick" days even if that project is due tomorrow.

Enfusia wrote:

Ibuy condo's in great areas and rent them out Air BNB style.

Many EU countries are clamping down on the "disruptive" American style business models (i.e. Uber versus taxies, Airbnb versus hotels, etc.). I would myself wait till the dust settles before assuming this is a practical business plan.

But (some good news) I live near Lake Balaton and it seems everyone who owns a house near the lake rents out a spare room to tourists, so the local short term rental business (depending on local municipality regulation) is not uncommon.

But (some bad news) "condos" (using the American term) in Hungary are quite a bit more restrictive about short term rentals and you may find it difficult to rent out a room for short term rentals unless allowed in the building's tenant agreement.

klsallee wrote:

But (some good news) I live near Lake Balaton and it seems everyone who owns a house near the lake rents out a spare room to tourists, so the local short term rental business (depending on local municipality regulation) is not uncommon.

I second that.

I don't think it's a real business though, more like subsidising existence down by the lake.  The season is so short, late May  or mid-June until very early September (coinciding with schools closing/re-opening), it's hard to see how to make money.  As soon as the temperature drops, everyone is gone unless they have come in from say, Germany or the Netherlands for their two weeks holiday regardless.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I don't think it's a real business though, more like subsidising existence down by the lake

You hit the (proverbial) nail on the (proverbial) head.

Thank you Mercurien, Fluffy 2560 and kisallee. All of you boots on the ground insights are extremely valuable.

As for the obtaining residency via real estate purchase, here's where I got that from: https://en.5starseurope.com/hungary/res … -purchase/   
So, is this legit or a scam?  Either way scam or legit I thought you guys would like to know about it.

Is it that maybe it can be done and hardly anyone knows about it? Because I also saw it on the bottom of a real estate page where under a property in Hungarian it said (roughly) buy this property and qualify for your visa.

Thank you for the hiring advice. I prefer to work with programmers on a per job basis where they are freelancers who I shop the job to and they bid on it. This system has worked very well in the past
What thoughts have you on this approach?

As for bringing the parents over. Does anyone know of a website that gives the actual laws or rules for the business visa's? In English preferably or with a translate button?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Patrick

Enfusia wrote:

As for the obtaining residency via real estate purchase, here's where I got that from

To apply for a resident visa you need to show you have a place to live in Hungary. This can be a rental unit. Buying a property has nothing to do with the visa application process other than giving you an address to put on the visa (and again, you can put down a rental unit, just include your lease with the application).

For the link you provided, read it with my highlights:

- Submission of documents to the Embassy for the D category visa
- Consideration of the submitted application (to 30 days)

So the immigration office will "consider" your EU defined "long term stay" (i.e. D visa) application, as it will for anyone who submits a visa application, which you can do yourself.

That is all. Does not say you will "get" a visa, does it?

It also does not specifically state you get a work permit either, does it? That is because a work permit for US Citizens is a different document.

So the site is not "false", but it is not exactly transparent either. They want to make money selling you a property, and are being obtuse about your full range of options. So it is not a scam either. Just taking advantage of the ignorance of foreigners**. There are a lot of web sites like that, even more in the reverse direction advertising to "help" people get a US Green Card.

For more information, where to download a residency application, and work permit application see:

http://www.mfa.gov.hu/kulkepviselet/US/ … g_stay.htm

Enfusia wrote:

As for bringing the parents over. Does anyone know of a website that gives the actual laws or rules for the business visa's?

All visa information, in English:

http://www.bmbah.hu/index.php?lang=en

Hungarian Consulate list of addresses and contacts in the USA (but do note, that the Department of State does admit they may not be up to date): http://www.state.gov/s/cpr/rls/fco/222498.htm


**I hate to be harsh, but if you "fall" for that, maybe reconsider moving here. You might be an easier target than you may think. Outward "politeness" of the locals does not mean they will not be silently scheming to take advantage of your ignorance (and we all are ignorant, to some extent, of how things "really" work here).

You cant do better than go with hungaryproperties.org   they will sort out all property conveyancing for you at a really bargain price.

Thank you Mercurien and klsallee!

Mercurien, did you mean http://hungaryproperty.org/  Because with the spelling you gave I couldn't find anything. Just wanting to be sure I have your intended site. Thank you!

klsallee, thank you for your feedback. I'm not generally very gullible. I work so many hours that it was late at night when I was reading it, so i may have overlooked the real meaning of their words. Thank you for pointing that out.

I'm just looking for the best way to do this. And as you likely know; when you're a noob to all the paperwork, regulations, rules and customs of a place you don't know diddly. Well, that includes me too.

I know that no matter what I think I know over here in the states that it will be different when i arrive and see it 1st hand. But, that's part of the fun.

Thank you, Patrick

Enfusia wrote:

I work so many hours that it was late at night when I was reading it, so i may have overlooked the real meaning of their words.

Okay. No problem. Anyone who has worked in an IT related field knows about working late and getting a little at 2:00 AM.

Mercurien wrote:

You cant do better than go with hungaryproperties.org   they will sort out all property conveyancing for you at a really bargain price.

If http://hungaryproperty.org/ is the one you wanted to share, how do I understand the counties?

I Googled the heck out of it but there is just rubbish. I Googled to find out what counties Budapest might be in and the wiki page says other cities but with BP it just gives a dash -

My interests are in living in Budapest.

Thank you, Patrick

Enfusia wrote:

what counties Budapest might be in

It isn't in (i.e. part of) any county. The capital city (Budapest) is a special administrative district within Pest county but not part of Pest county. A similar analogy would be like Washington DC is a special administrative district in the USA, but not part of any state.

But if a web site asks first for a "county" and does not specifically offer Budapest as an option, try selecting "Pest".

klsallee wrote:

Enfusia wrote:

I work so many hours that it was late at night when I was reading it, so i may have overlooked the real meaning of their words.

Okay. No problem. Anyone who has worked in an IT related field knows about working late and getting a little at 2:00 AM.

Yeah, I've been known to elevate my retard level once I get to the point where I've fallen asleep 3 times but assure myself that this time I'll be able to finish the page.

Thanks, Patrick

klsallee wrote:

Enfusia wrote:

what counties Budapest might be in

It isn't in (i.e. part of) any county. The capital city (Budapest) is a special administrative district within Pest county but not part of Pest county. A similar analogy would be like Washington DC is a special administrative district in the USA, but not part of any state.

But if a web site asks first for a "county" and does not specifically offer Budapest as an option, try selecting "Pest".

Thank you, Yeah, the only county it has like that is Pest Megye and then doesn't show BP as far as I can tell in the cities when I select it. Here's the site: http://hungaryproperty.org/

Thank you, Patrick

Enfusia wrote:

Here's the site: http://hungaryproperty.org/

Looks like a site mostly for rural homes.

I did not look at the site extensively, but did peruse a few cute little houses or cottages in rather out of the way places. If one likes the quite, small village life (and potentially doing a lot of remodeling) a few good buys there. Else, probably not of much use to those interested in a more city based life.

klsallee wrote:

Enfusia wrote:

Here's the site: http://hungaryproperty.org/

Looks like a site mostly for rural homes.

I did not look at the site extensively, but did peruse a few cute little houses or cottages in rather out of the way places. If one likes the quite, small village life (and potentially doing a lot of remodeling) a few good buys there. Else, probably not of much use to those interested in a more city based life.

Thank you. I wasn't sure if it was just me who couldn't find BP on the site or what? It was recommended here on the forum so I figured I must not be seeing it.

Thanks, Patrick

Best to avoid rural properties unless there's a special reason.

They are at knock down prices for a reason - far away from anywhere useful, no local entertainment (really difficult for non native speakers - not even cinemas), high unemployment, poor public transport, no services (main drainage/sewerage, water, gas etc), bad "home made" construction, damp, strange joint ownership tangles and possibly even made of mud (yes, really).

I could go on.

Yeah Yeah blah blah!   Nice but cynical assumption,but still an assumption!  I bought an 18th Century Cottage from that website, 2.6 Acres of land with orchard,and the Cottage with Oak beams has been a Priests hermitage since 1892. The village is 14km from balaton,has 3 restaurants,post office,bank,school,medical centre,police station two min markets and 3 other shops,a museum,and i paid less than £17.000. So in the words of that Jazz lyricist..."It aint necessarily so"

Mercurien wrote:

..... The village is 14km from balaton,has 3 restaurants,post office,bank,school,medical centre,police station two min markets and 3 other shops,a museum,and i paid less than £17.000. So in the words of that Jazz lyricist..."It aint necessarily so"

Whatever floats your boat.

However, economically 14km is a hell of a long way from Balaton and the highway/motorway to Budapest. If it was lakeside it would be 10 x the price - 170K and up. Real estate price is based on: Location Location Location.

Mercurien wrote:

Yeah Yeah blah blah!   Nice but cynical assumption,but still an assumption!  I bought an 18th Century Cottage from that website, 2.6 Acres of land with orchard,and the Cottage with Oak beams has been a Priests hermitage since 1892. The village is 14km from balaton,has 3 restaurants,post office,bank,school,medical centre,police station two min markets and 3 other shops,a museum,and i paid less than £17.000. So in the words of that Jazz lyricist..."It aint necessarily so"

Holy cow that's a good deal.
I live in Tampa Florida and I couldn't by access to a spare toilet for that.

I'm looking forward to the distinct possibility of making Budapest our home. And I appreciate every piece of info I can get.

I'm looking for a reputable lawyer to help me start a business and get our visa's that way. There are a couple of agencies that do this, but I know they just pay lawyers to do it for them and take the profit.

Still, £17.000 for a property like that is amazing. Good job finding that.

Patrick

Enfusia wrote:

Still, £17.000 for a property like that is amazing. Good job finding that.

It's quite easy to find low cost property everywhere in Hungary but like I said...miles from anywhere...no services ...etc.. There's no comparison between Tampa, London, Frankfurt or Toronto with rural Hungary.

There are some more good deals going. There is a working Vinyard 3 acres,and a Wooden Chalet and wine celler. Only problem is,no running water or toilet. Price £3600

I live in a small village.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Best to avoid rural properties unless there's a special reason.

They are at knock down prices for a reason -

I agree. Do not move to the country unless you have a special reason for doing so. Property price alone is not enough.

fluffy2560 wrote:

far away from anywhere useful

Well, that is relative. To an American nothing in Hungary is far from anywhere. I lived for a short time in Paradise Valley Nevada (look it up on Google) -- that really is backward freaking nowhere (but I loved living there -- I am that type of person). 

fluffy2560 wrote:

really difficult for non native speakers

This is actually very important. More so than geographical isolation. The linguistic isolation means no social interaction. Zero. If you get lonely if you can not talk to others, then do not buy a rural house, or else learn Hungarian ASAP (but of course then you will learn all about how you were gossiped about in the village and then wish you did not lean Hungarian so you did not have to know such things....).

fluffy2560 wrote:

high unemployment

If you have money, not relevant except to the locals. Maybe some extra petty crime, but if you do not lock things up, you simply are at fault for stupidity tax.

fluffy2560 wrote:

poor public transport

Most villages have a bus route. Buses are very nice and modern. But they will also make.... every.... little... stop.... so getting anywhere can take time. Also if you want to go out late at night, forget it, as buses often stop running at 6:00 PM.

What is the more important problem is the roads -- narrow and poorly maintained. Not ideal for driving. During snow storms, icy conditions they can be dangerous for those not use to driving in these conditions. I have "winter" tires, but when the road is a sheet of ice, in more than one occasion, if I did not carry chains I would have been stuck waiting for the spring thaw. (Side note: do not count on local governments to always clear the village roads of snow -- some of them are not always the most competent agencies).

fluffy2560 wrote:

no services (main drainage/sewerage, water, gas etc),

If you buy a village house, they will usually have a septic tank, water and electricity. Gas is less common of course. If you insist on gas cooking, you can buy gas bottles for the kitchen stove. For heating you can use electricity or wood. Wood is cheaper (about the same price as gas -- and maybe a little cheaper), but takes more work. Outside villages you will get just the old outhouse (which you can replace with septic tank or a modern self contained black water treatment device if the property has water -- but either option is not cheap). Maybe not even electricity. But of course, simply don't buy those if you do not have a pioneering spirit (or do buy if you do).

fluffy2560 wrote:

bad "home made" construction, damp, strange joint ownership tangles and possibly .

These are all really problems here in many houses. The "DIY" construction being the biggest issue as it really leads to the biggest construction instability and damp problems (no one here, IMHO, understands water movement in walls).

If there are tangled ownership issues, run (fast), do not walk from the purchase.

fluffy2560 wrote:

even made of mud (yes, really). .

And? Many modern "earthship" houses are made of rammed dirt. Others are made of straw bales. Made from local materials, ecological and economical. Cool in the summer and warm in the winter due to mass loading of the walls. And if properly maintained this wall construction method is not a problem.

Mercurien wrote:

There is a working Vinyard 3 acres,and a Wooden Chalet and wine celler. Only problem is,no running water or toilet. Price £3600

Having a vineyard myself, I can tell you "no running water" is a deal killer. You need water for a lot, such as spraying and washing equipment, bottles, etc. That is why it is so cheap -- not worth it.

klsallee wrote:

Mercurien wrote:

There is a working Vinyard 3 acres,and a Wooden Chalet and wine celler. Only problem is,no running water or toilet. Price £3600

Having a vineyard myself, I can tell you "no running water" is a deal killer. You need water for a lot, such as spraying and washing equipment, bottles, etc. That is why it is so cheap -- not worth it.

How about putting a well on it?

Is that feasible here?

I had 10 acres in Duvall Washington near Carnation (the big dairy farms) and I put a well on it and had great water flow.

I wouldn't want to live on a country vineyard, but having one would be a fun project.

Could I hire a local family to live on it and produce from it?

Patrick