De nial is not just a river in Egypt!

I agree with you, guess I just got used to not having to work, I will put up with allot to avoid working.
In Vegas right now, was hired by a temp convention center agent. Did 4 days and done with work,'Also was hired at a casino to deal cards, changed my mind about that and noticed several hair salons walking distance from where I am living that would hire me on the spot. Also several dept. store jobs, picked up the apps , filled them out and tossed them away.
I am pushing 62 and got lazy living in HU off and on for 10 years without having to do anything if I wasn't into it.
That's my numero uno reason for loving Hungary.
My husband is Hungarian so it makes it easier to get things done, I just let him do it all.
The nice thing in Hungary is the dental care, if you are lucky enough to find a decent dentist that is.
In the US the cost for dentists is out of this world, we are going to be seeing many toothless people in the US within the decade if they don't start making prices reasonable or cover dental work with health coverage.
What  I find strange is when we are in Hungary we are really cheapo, don't buy the cheapest stuff but we don't waste either. Now in Vegas we are gambling, tipping, eating out just being wasteful in general. For some reason we feel we must be careful in Hungary about spending money, it is cheaper there but we are on high alert there. Suppose knowing we are 100% on our own in Hungary makes us that way.
No one is coming to our rescue there at least in the states even an "old lady" like me can find a job within a few days if so needed.
Hungary is hard for the locals, growing up under such a tough system makes people hard, no wonder hardly anyone smiles in Hungary.
Even my Hungarian girlfriend who has moved from the US back to Hungary says ever little item she brought from the US seems more special even if she can find the same item for sale in Hungary. It might be the feeling of negative salespeople or the high VAT tax that just takes the fun out of spending in Hungary.

We checked out Belize back in 1995. People were really friendly there BUT not as cheap as we were told. If you wish to live in a tin roofed shack then yes, it can be cheap there but if you want to live in a comfortable fashion you better have a few bucks on you.
We couldn't even rent a car in 95, the locals would be willing to sell you a 1969 rusty old Ford for $700. but no car rentals back then, not sure about now though.
Took a taxi ride there, wow, waited for the driver to show up, some dude without a shirt on and a wet towel wrapped around his head come running out of a bar with a screwdriver in his hand.  ( not the drink but a real tool to hot wire the cab with!)
In his other hand he had a cocktail, rum and coke if I remember correctly!!
He hot wired the  parked cab to give us a ride up the hill with our luggage. We asked him what the deal was, he said no problem he knew the owner of the cab, on the way up he picked up a few other people to give them a free ride while we got stuck with the fare.
At that time in Belize city there we not too many places to have dinner, a few old colonial style British formal looking places and were the locals ate.
We went into a place and asked for the menu, the cook looked at us like we were crazy and said, chicken or beef with rice and beans. I got chicken, one bone that looked like someone had already eaten off of it!
People came in ready to murder each other, there was an actual short fight, some running inside , some pushing and shoving inside another eatery and 2 guys running out the back door. Seems soda bottles were what they were after, that 25 cent deposit money was to die for! Big business in refunded soda bottles!
We were also told kindly by the hotel manager in the city to NOT go out at night, We would of stood out and been a target for crime.
We later went inland into the rainforest area for a few days time. That was lovely, stayed in an old British hunting lodge, world class menu at the hotel and lovely service. Mixed bag in Belize for sure.
Insane place, pretty but insane.

Thank you for that! It confirmed my suspicion. It is worth mentioning that there are places in Hungary one should not go at least alone. As in all places foreigners are not welcomed by all.
Yes Europe has opened up and new opportunities came but so did less honorable people like
gangs, Ukrainian, Russian and Serbian organized crime (mafia if you will). In smaller communities some will welcome you and others won't give you the time of the day unless you/family been there at lest three generations! But ultimately each place is what you make of it! I have the advantage of Hungarian background and knowledge of the language yet on many days I don't feel all that comfortable. I guess it is each it's own!

peddington wrote:

As the saying goes DENIAL  vis-a-vie "The Nile" is not just a river in Egypt!
I think many "expats" romanticize their new found "little piece of heaven"
and often don't face reality.

Yes, you have a point.

Some expats do certainly live in an expat bubble within an expat community. The tendency is increased if the expats do not speak the local language or have family that does (i.e. a spouse).

But that is then their "reality". A tiny microcosms of the "larger" reality for sure, and maybe a bit in denial of that larger reality, but still very real to them, and maybe they like it that way. As someone once said to me about another country, "If you do not read the news in the papers, it is actually a pretty nice place to live". Whom am I to judge that person's life decision in how to live in any country?

peddington wrote:

It is worth mentioning that there are places in Hungary one should not go at least alone.

Well, I grew up in LA, and there were places there that I would not go either. 

No place is perfect. Every place has its problems. It really is what one tolerates, or what one makes of it. If a place becomes personally intolerable, expats usually have the luxury to leave. Not everyone in a bad place has such a luxury.

Grew up in S. Cal in a " safe" community in the 1960's, N of LA in "Red Neck" land.
Safe, just about every other home was owned by either a policeman or firefighter, very conservative place, guess who used to get their a** either beaten on or picked on? My friends and  I for not fitting in, Hippie girls who smoked cigars and hitched rides, dressed different( thrift shop and everything from the 30's or 40's.
So saying that sometimes it's not the wrong place, just not the right fit.
My BIL and SIL are everyday, hardworking Hungarians who met in their youth when they both were folk dancers.
Just about as HU as one can possibly be, very straight people.
They live in conservative Erd in a self built home, just normal HU.
My husband and I wanted to take them to a nice dinner at a little place we once had lunch at in Martonvasar( spelling)
We dressed nice and neat but nothing wild, I had on a black dress suit, very conservative for me since my in-laws are so straight. This was 12 years ago.
We walked in the door and the place was very busy, everyone stopped what they were doing, stopped talking, drinking eating and turned to stare at all of us at the doorway.
No one came over to sit us down to eat, we walked out, very weird, wonder what that was all about, I mean we all looked Hungarian , middle aged etc.
I can only imagine how strange it can be for those not of "white" skin or who don't speak the language, they didn't want any outsiders in the place. Glad to say however that the place is now closed down, weird.

Won't get into it too much but there is a huge HU mafia also.
They reach very far too, even stateside.

I in general don't have any issues about not looking like a local or Hungarians not expecting me.
I just find the general mind set totally different with most locals I meet. Not exactly the most open minded sorts. Their way or the highway as the saying goes...
I have been mistaken for a Hungarian many times, people always ask me directions in Hungarian on the street or they start speaking German to me.
I least that is a bit of a comfort, no one has ever told me I do not belong in Hungary.
When they realize I don't understand the language most people assume I am Italian, cool but I am not.
I know for a fact that most, not all but most Hungarians don't like anyone of color or anyone of a non traditional within Hungary religion.
If your different you are to be feared.

The expats that live in a bubble are either wealthy ones who could live anywhere in the world behind the walls of a gated community or have been sent by their jobs and are under a sort of protection, someone is holding their hands at all times, helping with everyday details of life, help finding a flat, schools, rides whatever.
I knew a very well off American women for a short time, still run into her once in awhile while she is walking her dogs.
She told me all about the "wealthy ex pat" community. Ladies with time on their hands having tea and lunch planning ex pat parties etc. Country club set people.
Not in the same reality as many of us are living in.

Speaking of gangstas, many left Hungary back in the old days, somehow they slipped through the background checks of Interpol.
Know that for a fact as many found themselves in S. Cal.
Guess the old commie system didn't release all the info on some people at that time, why would would they give that info out to the west. They were more then happy to be rid of them.

You speak the truth! As for California it is the only state I refuse to live in!

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Hippie girls who smoked cigars

I consider my body a temple. I eat right. Exercise a lot. And try to take care of myself.

But.

Even if it is "bad" for me.

From time to time, yes here I do admit and openly confess, I really do enjoy a fine cigar.

But wait, there is more.

I also like women who are of the same opinion.   

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I have been mistaken for a Hungarian many times

Same here.

I think it is my handlebar mustache. 

Nothing wrong with a cigar once in a while!

No longer smoke ... cigars anyways....
My Mohawk great-grandmother was known to smoke a pipe!

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

No longer smoke ... cigars anyways....
My Mohawk great-grandmother was known to smoke a pipe!

After trying smoking various stuff, I gave up smoking (anything) in about 2003.   

After we had kids it's sort of fizzled out - so to speak.  Didn't want to set a bad example to them and bad for their health so just sort of ground to a halt and never started again. 

Not going out and no babysitting probably helped a lot!

Picking up bad habits while in the US, have to get " straight" soon before going back to good ol' conservative Hungary.
Meeting up with all my old HS buddies has shown my mother was right, all bad influences on me!! Love it though.
Doing the Vegas thing, over eating, drinking gambling and smoking a bit, sin city time!

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Picking up bad habits while in the US, have to get " straight" soon before going back to good ol' conservative Hungary.

Interesting.

Essay assignment: In 25,000 words or less*, explain why you are coming back to Hungary**. 

* I wonder if any properly aware and informed expat on the planet could honestly do it in fewer.....

** I am reasonably content here, but then again I have not gone abroad in the past 3 years and had to consider and weight "returning" or not. 

fluffy2560 wrote:

After we had kids it's sort of fizzled out - so to speak.  Didn't want to set a bad example to them and bad for their health so just sort of ground to a halt and never started again.

All excellent reasons. You did the right thing.

I don't consider myself in denial of anything.
The land attracted me I knew nothing about the people when I first arrived.
All newspapers in any country spurt out bad news. In Hungary I don't have to live in a bubble I am a bubble. I am just not that interested in what the locals are thinking about me or any other incomer. Like most people in any society they can say one thing and think an other. I often believe if  of you go looking for nice people with good attitudes you find them and the reverse is also true.

Wherever I am in Hungary I have not felt threatened by people or even felt particularly noticed. My neighbours just seem to accept me as part of the landscape but I always conform more because I am a foreigner. I don't go out in my nightclothes as they do in many parts of the UK.
However, if Hungary was to become as expensive as the UK I would move on because I enjoy living in a place with a lower cost of living first and formost.
They are also less bothered about fashion so I can wear any old thing to a party . They do tend to see all incomers as eccentric and foolish so I have no standards to keep up. They go to the bar to get totally wasted and I go to sip orange juice all night and watch the wild dancing.

Yes living in a bubble is nice as long as nothing comes along and pops it.
Nice to have some ex pat friends to share experiences with, get advice etc.
Yes I agree, if HU got more expensive we would also be long gone.
Wild dancing Ann? Last time we did that I couldn't walk for 2 weeks!
All fun though.
When I finally get my old age money HU will be even more fun, nice to be able to take small trips around Europe and use HU as a base camp.

Yes. Money makes a big difference wherever we are. With it I was able to buy an apartment in a nice enough area and generally make improvements to my little tanya.
I do get invited to things in the countryside and I was commenting above mainly about the wild dancing that happens on saturday nights at the local bar.
My friend John is the type of person that likes to frequent the same places and he has even got a local he likes to go to on my street in Budapest which has  similar social behaviour  probably due to cheap ale being readily available.
I wont be eligible for my state pension for four years so I will work a  little but if HU prices catch up with the UK I will move on because I have spent too much time having to work full time.

anns wrote:

.....but I always conform more because I am a foreigner. I don't go out in my nightclothes as they do in many parts of the UK....

I think it depends on how much you give a damn about what the neighbours think.  Mrs Fluffy seems to be acutely conscious about what the people she knows think about her.  She even thinks my behaviour (which is rather eccentric by HU standards) causes some gossip. Possibly as the foreigner I have more leeway on acceptability.  Not sure if the kids get any stick now for me being the foreigner (they did when Jobbik was on the up).   Around here are loads of foreigners and international couples around here anyway. I'm not dependent on any of my neighbours so I really couldn't give a damn what they think.

I might draw a line on taking the kids to school in my jim-jams or going around the shops in my slippers.  But I see no problem with sitting around in the garden and putting the bins out like that with messy hair or hanging about in track suits or sports gear (especially after doing the actual sport).

Mrs Fluffy's cousin will not even go to the supermarket without putting her make up on, getting the right togs on and choosing which handbag should go with her shopping basket.    Nuts!

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

After we had kids it's sort of fizzled out - so to speak.  Didn't want to set a bad example to them and bad for their health so just sort of ground to a halt and never started again.

All excellent reasons. You did the right thing.

Thanks.

Yes, I would advise quitting by normal methods rather than acquiring some children.  One might save on smoking materials but kids cost $$$$ big time.  In that respect it might seem like a bad investment - kid or smoke?  Maybe buy a book on stopping smoking instead.

Of course the "afterglow" before and after is certainly nicer with kids than cigarettes, cigars or even a spliff. 

Funny yes I refuse to be seen in my flat in Budapest taking my trash out even.
I have my husband to that one job.
In Vegas, dam I think every neighbor has seen me on the front yard in my jammies playing with the trash cans.
Different world, when I was a casino games dealer in Vegas I saw everything.
Women in jammies and slippers playing at the tables next to someone wearing a tux.
One time a man walked right through the casino floor wearing nothing but a tiny white hotel towel, no one hardly even looked twice at him.
I know in HU my neighbors freak and stare when I am wearing my tight jeans, at my age!! Oh my!!
Most know I am "different" as just smile at me, crazy foreigner!!

To be fare though, most women do tend to check each other out, women dress for other women most times.
I know from experience in my old valley girl days in S. Cal.
I would go to the gym and sweat for hours, only had a short time to jump into the mall on my way home all the while looking like a washed out rag from working out.
I only jumped into the mall to buy an item I had already tried on or planned on picking up quickly.
I would drop hundreds of bucks but the sales women looked at me like I was homeless.
The days I was just window shopping and was dressed up, I was treated like a great customer even though I might not buy a thing.
Men don't usually have that problem in public.
They are respected more even if they have not shaved in a week , women however are judged hard.
In Hungary women are allot meaner with each other then anywhere else I have been to in the world.

Well that is certainly ONE way of looking at it. You likely don't have much "interaction" with government officials, didn't bring a car in to Hungary, don't have to deal with local schools, employers, tax office, don't have "complex" issues associated with your move, don't speak the language......... so "basically" you are a TOURIST! That is certainly is the least troublesome way to live here or any other country for that matter. If you can keep occupied and not get bored and it is ALL ABOUT finances, I guess it works!

I am definitely not a tourist but I prefer to think of myself as an incomer rather than an immigrant. People do tend to move around and people move countries for all kinds of reasons.
As a person living in Hungary I have bought and sold properties, dealt with car issues, paid fines and taxes, paid utility bills etc.
I have not got responsibility for school aged children but if I had I would just deal with it.
There is also no need to be abusive about tourists. I have a home in Budapest and the tourists really enliven the place and improve the economy.

I know tourists do improve the economy for business owners but for many local working class Hungarians having so many tourists in the city willing to overpay for meals and entertainment has left many hard working HUngarians unable to keep up with the high costs of taking their own family out to dinner.
For us ex pats the prices for a night out on the town seem average  not too high most times but I know how it used to be in Budapest.
Every family used to be able to afford to go out to dinner on the Corso downtown eating places were so affordable that even teenagers would be able to have a meal with their friends in a decent place and then be able to afford a night of dancing and drinks.
Now days not so .
I live close to the New York Hotel, some days I can hardly use the sidewalk it is so crowded with tourists trying to get in, a line stretches down the block.
Years ago it was more of a cafe style place where everyone could afford to go and have lunch, not a big deal for the average HU to have lunch with nice table covering and flowers on the table, now it is too pricey for most Hungarians.
I suppose in many things even if I could afford to go I tend to side with the working class of Hungary and boycott overpriced businesses.
Just me perhaps. I know back in 1978 when the dollar was super strong in HU I wanted to try out all the "fancy restaurants" in Budapest. My husband refused to enter because at that time only wealthy party members could afford to eat in those places.
We refused to eat in the company of those who hurt the working class , guess we are still that way.
We used to take out 10 or more family members to a nice meal in an average place then just treat ourselves  in bad company.
Not sure why I have turned  the tourist industry into a topic of what is fair or not.
Just saying some times seeing a line of tourists buses on the streets blocking roads just makes one long for the old days.
Hard to convey how nice Budapest was before they decided to put profit before quality of life, think most would of loved to see Budapest as it was 30 years ago.
Some things like road improvements have been done in tourist areas and some look very nice, not much getting done in area though where tourists usually don't go.
Sometimes I think I am in Disneyland and not in Budapest.
I may sometimes get frustrated with the HU mind set but overall I feel empathy for the working class, must be in my blood, injustice so many did so much for Hu and now many can't even afford to take their family out for an ice cream let alone a family meal.
I never get pleasure by exploiting people and I feel many of the tourist hot spots are just a rip off, have to pay now to even enter some churches.
HU is not 3rd world  but the prices vs the average workers income makes Hungarians mostly resent all outsiders. They see they worked hard and are working hard and people just come in take over the sidewalks, cafe owners get permits to expand making it hard to use the walkways and the only ones that profit are the business owners, the average HU is being put out and getting nothing back. They feel disrespected in their own country I can understand how they feel.
I have lived in tourist towns in the US and have seen seen such a price gap between what tourists can afford to pay against what the average local worker can afford.
Used to be people knew the small business owners, first time we visited Budapest after 7 years we could still see the same shop keepers and knew their names now it's all about money and no one has time to know your name.
I know many come to visit HU just because the prices are less then in their home country the problem is that the average HUngarian has been left out who cares if the business owner is making a profit the road improvements in tourist area only help the business owner, many HU can not even afford a car let alone afford to park on the st.
If people wonder why many Hungarians seem unwilling or unfriendly it is resentment because of feeling like a few profit while most are left out in the cold.

Unfortunately we can't turn back time . The London of my childhood is no longer. Most countries like to develop a tourist industry to raise revenue and employment for locals and most tourists are overcharged.
I don't particularly go to the tourist areas and I am a poor incomer because I use public transport , live in my own home and prefer my own cooking. However even in the most touristic places locals and tourists can be seen enjoying the festival's, parks , rivers and free entry places with very little tension.
We can all go on about the good old days when places were dirt cheap but very few places remain the same. We can blame it on the travel programmes ; people now like to see things for themselves.

Your right Ann, things change but not always for the better.
In Hungary what bugs the locals is that so many tourists coming in have made everyday life a bit harder for them.
A old city which can not be made larger.
Many cafes have over run the walkways, they have tax loop holes from what I have been told, hardly pay many taxes . No room for people to walk and get about.
It is almost like everything is geared for the tourists in many neighborhoods and to heck with the locals.
Prices to eat our in a decent place are very high for local wages. The forint is weak against most other EU currency.
Does not mean the HU workers time  and work is worth less.
I have traveled around in large American and EU cities in the past, now in Vegas.
The locals in all these other places can afford to eat out in decent places with average wages.
The HU wages don't add up to much and seeing how only the cafe and shop keepers benefit and the locals don't benefit from the tourist trade much at all. Not everyone is a waitress or tourist bus driver.
This is what I have knowledge of from speaking with my neighbors, they really dislike so many tourists coming in.
Free activities are not as frequent  or has good as they were just a decade ago.
Now many events such as October feast in the park is a pay to enter event, just a few years back it was free to the public with live music and dancing for all, just one example of how money and profit has been put before the quality of life.

It is not the tourists that are the problem.

As in, there is the Vegas Strip. And then there is the rest of Las Vegas -- two very different worlds.

That is just another, all too common, example of a lack of regional planning.

The problem is not the tourists or foreigners, but with the locals themselves and simply a lack of regional planning by their elected officials.

Same with the Jersey shores, in Hungary, and in many countless other areas around the planet.

In other words:

A concentration by elected officials (who do not know what they are doing) budding up to the larger players (i.e. who have short term interests to only make money, and so that is where the short term money is) while ignoring the long term community needs (i.e. those that elected them).

And, weirdly, in the end, the community (the electorate) ends up blaming neither the government officials they elected (because that would then mean they themselves as voters errored in judgment electing those officials -- which is personally unacceptable) nor the greedy self interested businesses (since the locals are by then afraid of loosing the now only existing job options), so the only safe ones left to "blame", politically and psychologically, are the foreigners and tourists.

It does not make sense. But I have seen it before. Too many times. Typical.

Used to live on Maui in the mid 70's, have not been there for a visit since the mid 90's.
I am sure I would be shocked at the cramped roads.
back in the day the 7 scared pools of Hana were free to use, if you could take the long and windy road there, you were good to go. Now they charge a fee to use what mother nature has given for free.
Guess Hungary is the same way, profit before people.

On a side topic..... IMHO: The drive to Hana on Maui is something everyone should experience at least once in their lifetime. A mecca for the visual cortex. Road turn after road turn I was amazed. Simply breathtaking.

And, no, one does not need maui waui to throughly enjoy that spectacular drive. 

But, otherwise, if you are on Maui......

Lately I am not sleeping like the rock that I usually do.
In the US visiting my son ATM. Slightly worried about flying back into HU and not feeling it.
Enjoying  my family allot, not really feeling Hungary much at all or missing a thing except for the low prices, not a good enough reason to live anywhere.
Hardly miss the place and not overly excited about my return in a short 8 weeks time.
See how it goes when I get back there, might be time to move on,a true "Rolling Stone" never lived anywhere more then 10 years in my lifetime, sometimes a little as 6 to 18 months somewhere.
Had visions of being a "little old lady" riding my bike around the countryside in Hungary but might just change that vision for one where I can wear a swimsuit all year round.
I do adapt fast so I may eat these words later when I am back in Hungary enjoying a nice walk about the city park and having a good beer in a cafe.
Anyone else ever get mixed feelings about living in Hungary?

"Mixed feelings?" Yup! I'm going back in two months and really considering not coming back!
That of course depends on the "relationship" situation but as it stands right now I miss my 'ol
stumping ground. Maybe I'll do the El Camino or something...............

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

....Anyone else ever get mixed feelings about living in Hungary?

Very interesting but also extremely tough question there Marilyn.

Everything revolves around my local immediate family.   We're utterly focused on them.   My UK family is a declining balance as they are disappearing.  Even the local relatives are fading out.

When our very youngest kid gets to adulthood (a long time to go still ~12 years), I wonder if living here is going to be relevant any more.   I'll be well into retirement age by then (if I make it) and of course, many people want to retire to Hungary.  Except I'm already here. 

If Mrs Fluffy pops her clogs, then apart from the kids living their own lives, being here seems to make no sense at all.  However, I've been here for 20+ years or so and in another 12 years (kid reaches majority), that'll be 32 years.  I'll have been effectively living away from the UK for about 1/2 my life.

Now I hardly know where "home" is and in 12 years, I am not sure I will have many connections left back to Blighty (English slang for the UK).

I am fairly new and still have a lot to explore. Four to eight years is my maximum but things are different for me now that I have retired. My friend probably wants to take over my holiday home over the next few years and I am not getting any younger. I will gradually not want to dig but just want to admire someone else's handiwork.
I will also probably always keep my place in Budapest as a base. But going somewhere hot and carefree for the winter is something I have really enjoyed.
When I was employed I was only allowed to take two weeks holiday or more with special permission. I no longer have that restriction , or any financial one, so no more icy winter for me.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Lately I am not sleeping like the rock that I usually do.
In the US visiting my son ATM. Slightly worried about flying back into HU and not feeling it.
Enjoying  my family allot, not really feeling Hungary much at all or missing a thing except for the low prices, not a good enough reason to live anywhere.
Hardly miss the place and not overly excited about my return in a short 8 weeks time.

My life experience: If it does not really bring you long term joy, abandon it.

Cheap local prices are transitory. In a few years that will probably be gone. And if you wed yourself to that concept today, you may be stuck with it when it is no longer true tomorrow.

And life is worth more than cheap retail goods. And "oh well" if you sell your apartment in Hungary at a fiscal loss on paper. It gave you a few good years, and you have to add that into the equation. As in, "that was fun" but that is probably mostly yesterday's experience. Only the future counts.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Anyone else ever get mixed feelings about living in Hungary?

Sure. But that is true of everyplace. The trick is knowing when a place/person/event in your life brings you real benefit or not. If not, jettison it. Move on. That is my life experience, and when I listened to it, I never, and I repeat NEVER, regretted it long term.