Absolutely Anything Else

Vicces1 wrote:

I for one, welcome our alien overlords.

Well, if they treated us like I treat my dog, and my neighbor treats her cats, it would be a pretty good life!

Be like a kind of retirement or lockdown.  Lavish food, plenty of love and attention, comfy bed, free bones and balls of string to play with.   What's not to like?

fluffy2560 wrote:

Vicces1 wrote:

I for one, welcome our alien overlords.

Well, if they treated us like I treat my dog, and my neighbor treats her cats, it would be a pretty good life!

Be like a kind of retirement or lockdown.  Lavish food, plenty of love and attention, comfy bed, free bones and balls of string to play with.   What's not to like?

What is not to like? Well... I guess it would depend on the ultimate motive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man

Thus, the long truth is, real altruism is actually almost non-existent. It is unusual that others bring you benefit.... if that benefit does not actually benefit them more in some way shape or form.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Vicces1 wrote:

I for one, welcome our alien overlords.

Well, if they treated us like I treat my dog, and my neighbor treats her cats, it would be a pretty good life!

Be like a kind of retirement or lockdown.  Lavish food, plenty of love and attention, comfy bed, free bones and balls of string to play with.   What's not to like?

What is not to like? Well... I guess it would depend on the ultimate motive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man

Thus, the long truth is, real altruism is actually almost non-existent. It is unusual that others bring you benefit.... if that benefit does not actually benefit them more in some way shape or form.

To Serve Man:   It's episode 24 of Season 3 of the Twilight Zone and can be downloaded or watched in various incarnations/summary on YouTube.   Apparently it's 11 in the top 100 of best remembered episodes.

Not that strangely Mrs Fluffy and I were talking about the dog's need to be with us and its need to reaffirm constantly its position in the group hierarchy or pack.  In absence of an Alpha to keep it in its place,  we agreed that at the end of the day the dog would eat your face off if it was hungry and you were immobile.   

Perhaps there's not a lot of difference between animals  (many humans included) driven insane by hunger, loyalty maybe wouldn't really extend past availability of food.

**update:  In the Twilight Zone episode above, the alien protagonist was Richard Kiel who was Jaws in the James Bond movies.

I remember that short story from my childhood... I always think of it in such situations.
But hey, if it is a quick death after some good feeding, life wouldn't be worse for many on this planet.

An interesting piece from the BBC (YouTube video) about Hungary and the Coronavirus. The LInk can be found HERE

SimCityAT wrote:

An interesting piece from the BBC (YouTube video) about Hungary and the Coronavirus. The LInk can be found HERE

That guy in the mask was OV and that's not the OV in COVID19.   

As yet unconfirmed news today (no link yet) is that some areas are going to reopen but the twist is that these are Fidesz controlled areas despite having  a higher incidence of COVID19.  Areas not controlled by Fidesz will remain closed.

Not a lot of information in that BBC piece. Disappointing really.
The Hungarian government has acknowledged a lack of testing. So the numbers are not really known.
Far from keeping a distance in the beginning, the Hungarians put the initial Iranian students under "hospital arrest".

I think this is a fluff piece.

However, Hungary has been spared the worst of the effects and has done many good things not described in the BBC piece. For example, I know people in 3 counties have received free face masks. I know that Hungary was among the first to cancel mass gatherings such as concerts and sporting events. So kudos for that.

Vicces1 wrote:

Not a lot of information in that BBC piece. Disappointing really.
The Hungarian government has acknowledged a lack of testing. So the numbers are not really known.
Far from keeping a distance in the beginning, the Hungarians put the initial Iranian students under "hospital arrest".

I think this is a fluff piece.

However, Hungary has been spared the worst of the effects and has done many good things not described in the BBC piece. For example, I know people in 3 counties have received free face masks. I know that Hungary was among the first to cancel mass gatherings such as concerts and sporting events. So kudos for that.

I don't think Hungary has been spared the worst.  The reported numbers might be grossly wrong as they don't seem to fit with other countries rates of infection.  They are probably under-reporting. 

Free masks are one thing but there are no payments or grants or schemes to keep people going.  They have to survive on savings. I don't know what people do if they don't have savings or relatives to help out.   

I suspect the debt will increase rapidly when they sort out the EU Corona bonds.  The economics are not going to look pretty.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Yes, I was joking. I keep forgetting the emoticons or emojis or whatever the F they are.

The written language often lacks the subtle intonations that would clarify humor. There is a fascinating history of people trying to express intent in text messages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticon#Pre-emoticon

But to be fair.... I should have qualified my question. Looking back, it was terse. So terse it could easily be seen as being judgemental. That was not my intent. Maybe a "query" emoji ( ) should have been added.....

So I think the original error was mine. Wait for it.... here it comes....   

Nah,  unlike DT I know what sarcasm actually is.  Somewhat different to his version - mine was intended to be somewhat playful so no harm done.   I agree that it's very hard to get that kind of feel in text only. 

But like the pioneers of text messaging, where there's a will people will find a way.  One of the powers of language and particularly English (maybe) is adaptability.   

Just for fun the eldest HU Fluffyette and I are trying to  invent a new way of discussion using different phrases to those used in normal speech just for a boredom lockdown  thought experiment...

For example:   

Pong reducer - deodorant
Insertion into greenery - go in the garden
Splash-io - Shower
Metal Joiner - Welder
In darkness - Evening
Into the darkness - early evening

What is surprising me in the few days we've been doing this is how easy it is to actually create a divergent way of speaking which is really the basis for another dialect.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Insertion into greenery - go in the garden

When creating alternate signals, good idea to consider what those may mean in the original language....

Much like Wizz Air apparently did not check on what that word could mean in some English contexts....

Greenery my include a bush.... I will assume all English speakers get the slang there.... so I do not need to add a link.....

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Insertion into greenery - go in the garden

When creating alternate signals, good idea to consider what those may mean in the original language....

Much like Wizz Air apparently did not check on what that word could mean in some English contexts....

Greenery my include a bush.... I will assume all English speakers get the slang there.... so I do not need to add a link.....

Ah the double entendre......excellent....well, history is littered with screw ups like that...I remember some product names we used to laugh about - these came to mind

Super-p*ss - I think some kind of crisps/potato chips
Nova - car name...doesn't go..
Mitsubishi Pajero -  slang for the driver who is clearly an a**hole
Bum - Hungarian choc bar

The Wizzair should really have been Whizzair although of course you cannot hear the H.

The Fluffyette's interest has waned today.  Too much homework.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Ah the double entendre......excellent....

Personally love the double entrendre. And the English are world class experts at it. And do it with wit and style.....

But some Americans don't do so bad.... (even if a bit more..... well... lacking in subtle style....)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joed0P3hhbchttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRozAbaKs9M

Yes, everything mentioned and the terminology used in the above videos.... are completely correct and proper regarding locks.... that is... regarding locks....

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Ah the double entendre......excellent....

Personally love the double entrendre. And the English are world class experts at it. And do it with wit and style.....

But some Americans don't do so bad.... (even if a bit more..... well... lacking in subtle style....)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joed0P3hhbchttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRozAbaKs9M

Yes, everything mentioned and the terminology used in the above videos.... are completely correct and proper regarding locks.... that is... regarding locks....

Interesting insertion techniques but some language differences.  Back door we'd use but rear entrance would work too.  Beavers are of course equally furry animals.

I was asked for a reference today and I said they could write it themselves as it'd be an exercise in introspection.  They were were a bit insistent I do it to show some professional interest. I then suggested if I I did it - as I think they are are pretty good - they'd need to get organised and polish their halos to bask in the glow of my writings.   We discussed it a bit and decided as I didn't have a halo to polish I'd have to make do with polishing my helmet instead.  It might work just as well given the circumstances.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Beavers are of course equally furry animals.

Of course they are....

But even saying that... I assume without an emoji from you.... you are either bit of a boy scout (as we Americans would say). Then God bless your naivety. I wish I was that young again.....

Or.... Else you are being incredibly and wonderfully and deliciously cryptic, Bravo......... 

Is this discussion getting too... hum.... weird? I think so... Thus I will end it here...

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Beavers are of course equally furry animals.

Of course they are....

But even saying that... I assume without an emoji from you.... you are either bit of a boy scout (as we Americans would say). Then God bless your naivety. I wish I was that young again.....

Or.... Else you are being incredibly and wonderfully and deliciously cryptic, Bravo......... 

Is this discussion getting too... hum.... weird? I think so... Thus I will end it here...

Those emojis got me again.

Anyway, I think it's a New World language difference question.  what I was trying to say is that we didn't have them around as a typical species when I was younger.  So we usually think about other small animals like small cats. 

BTW, beavers are being re-introduced to the UK - I saw a programme on it the other day.  I'm OK with more beavers being around but I don't know how they help conservation - maybe flood control.   BTW, Mrs Fluffy said there was some hullabaloo about wolves coming in from Ukraine and Slovakia.  I know there were bears down in Slovenia.

fluffy2560 wrote:

BTW, beavers are being re-introduced to the UK - I saw a programme on it the other day.  I'm OK with more beavers being around but I don't know how they help conservation - maybe flood control.

A serious discussion topic. Lovely...

Nature "conservation" and natural "ecology" are different topics. Beavers are more akin to restoration of natural ecological systems than "conservation" of resources (which is often for human use). But not always... As even "conservation" ideas and ideologies from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifford_Pinchot  or John Muir are different. So the word "conservation" of natural resources is very complex and sadly not singularly defined due to historical abnormalities.... Thus "conservation" can have many, not all sympathetic, meanings.

Side note: I have a BS in Ecology, and an MS in Natural Resource Management.

klsallee wrote:

Thus "conservation" can have many, not all sympathetic, meanings.

So can the word "beaver"....

fluffy2560 wrote:

Not that strangely Mrs Fluffy and I were talking about the dog's need to be with us and its need to reaffirm constantly its position in the group hierarchy or pack.  In absence of an Alpha to keep it in its place,  we agreed that at the end of the day the dog would eat your face off if it was hungry and you were immobile.   

Perhaps there's not a lot of difference between animals  (many humans included) driven insane by hunger, loyalty maybe wouldn't really extend past availability of food.

I admit I have better things to do, and this comment is over a week old. But.... Still..... I am commenting mostly out of support for my Golden. And to refute one opinion with another (and because I grew up with dogs ... my father showed and breed Shetland Sheepdogs, and I actually did my MS thesis on canids so kind of know them). And because my dog can not type on a keyboard and defend himself. So I am his advocate. And my friend. That is him in my current Avatar here.

I would not think my Golden would do that without extreme provocation. I would say it is a breed/genetic thing. He would rather first try to find another human to give him food than eat my face...... This breed is social and human sensitive. They will try all possible alternatives before resorting to eating their owners.

That is simply their "breed" nature. To ask (barking), not so much to take. His food sits in the kitchen, in an open bag. He never takes. He simply waits (but may bark) for me to give it to him. Best dog ever.

Some breeds will be happy to eat your face. But.... A Golden? I have my doubts.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

BTW, beavers are being re-introduced to the UK - I saw a programme on it the other day.  I'm OK with more beavers being around but I don't know how they help conservation - maybe flood control.

A serious discussion topic. Lovely...

Nature "conservation" and natural "ecology" are different topics. Beavers are more akin to restoration of natural ecological systems than "conservation" of resources (which is often for human use). But not always... As even "conservation" ideas and ideologies from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifford_Pinchot  or John Muir are different. So the word "conservation" of natural resources is very complex and sadly not singularly defined due to historical abnormalities.... Thus "conservation" can have many, not all sympathetic, meanings.

Side note: I have a BS in Ecology, and an MS in Natural Resource Management.

Ok all good but restoring the beaver environment does what exactly?

In full disclosure,  I support Scottish Wildcats and somewhat less enamoured with beavers.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Not that strangely Mrs Fluffy and I were talking about the dog's need to be with us and its need to reaffirm constantly its position in the group hierarchy or pack.  In absence of an Alpha to keep it in its place,  we agreed that at the end of the day the dog would eat your face off if it was hungry and you were immobile.   

Perhaps there's not a lot of difference between animals  (many humans included) driven insane by hunger, loyalty maybe wouldn't really extend past availability of food.

I admit I have better things to do, and this comment is over a week old. But.... Still..... I am commenting mostly out of support for my Golden. And to refute one opinion with another (and because I grew up with dogs ... my father showed and breed Shetland Sheepdogs, and I actually did my MS thesis on canids so kind of know them). And because my dog can not type on a keyboard and defend himself. So I am his advocate. And my friend. That is him in my current Avatar here.

I would not think my Golden would do that without extreme provocation. I would say it is a breed/genetic thing. He would rather first try to find another human to give him food than eat my face...... This breed is social and human sensitive. They will try all possible alternatives before resorting to eating their owners.

That is simply their "breed" nature. To ask (barking), not so much to take. His food sits in the kitchen, in an open bag. He never takes. He simply waits (but may bark) for me to give it to him. Best dog ever.

Some breeds will be happy to eat your face. But.... A Golden? I have my doubts.

It's interesting but I think this is a bit romantic over your extended Goldie relationship.  I think it'd eat you eventually regardless of breed and regardless of training.

It's still an animal with base instincts which are stronger than training when the chips are down.  If it knows you're no longer Alpha because say you're unconscious or in a coma on the floor, then surely you're fair game.  Might hold off for a fair bit but eventually you're going to be nibbled and devoured.  Dog is not to going to sit beside a full bag of food forever waiting for the owner when easier game is available.

If all the dogs were to roam free, and all things being equal, even a Pekinese is going to soon join a pack of dogs to hunt down a quarry.   This has happened in Romania - when the People's Palace was built in Ceausescu's time.  People lost their homes and had to just let their dogs go who then formed into packs in Bucharest. When I was there with Mrs Fluffy a few years ago, it was a real problem.   We would see them all over the place.  Some Japanese guy got attacked at his apartment block and the dogs tore an artery and he died.  I blame Bridget Bardot. 

Around here, I can imagine groups of rat-like marauding handbag Chihuahuas roaming through the hills of Hungary looking to take down targets.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Ok all good but restoring the beaver environment does what exactly?

It is not about restarting a "beaver environment". It is about restoring an ecology that includes beavers. Thus, from the question, you do not quite understand the issue.

It is like asking... what good does restoring the XYZ animal do exactly? Or what good is Art? Or literature? or... any XYZ. That is a question demonstrating ignorance of complexity, on many levels (from ethics on up). Much like saying, what good does restoring the human economy post virus do exactly? Well the answer you may have regarding the latter, may be great for humans but lousy for beavers, or poor people who were already suffering under the current "economy". Thus you put yourself above other issues, but do you ask  "restoring the prior existing economic system.... does what exactly"?. Thus the question, and answer, is anthropomorphic. And begs the question ..... Can you not expand your mind, heart and soul to think beyond your own interests? Are you incapable of being part of a greater whole? And being part of that greater whole, and respecting that whole, may actually be in your benefit, even if you do not recognize it today.

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's interesting but I think this is a bit romantic over your extended Goldie relationship.  I think it'd eat you eventually regardless of breed and regardless of training. .

And your experience with dog ownership is...... How many years? Mine is 4 decades.

But I am willing to test our opinions.

Experimentally.

You come here, bring your dog, kill yourself, drop dead, and I will monitor if my dog or your dog eats your face....  and when. Promise to publish honest reports. Will even 24/7 video tape it for proof. If you are right... I will of course be honest and state this in the publication.

Challenge given... will you accept? Or you can just state your years of dog ownership are limited, that you do not have a degree in Biology, much less animal behavior (yes, I have a minor in that) have not studied canids, and retract saying I was.. "romantic"***, and all other than that was simply your uneducated, inexperienced Internet (i.e. because you can, not that you should) opinion.... **

(do note the emoji, because they do seem to befuddle you... )

** In exchange... since so much is "monetary" (as in exchange rates), I will admit I have no clue how to weld, fix a US car (being an American -- how weird is that?), and swear that Marmite is better than Vegemite (even though I have never tasted either). 

*** Did you bother to follow the link in my original post? I was hardly "romantic". But I was very certainly realistic.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Ok all good but restoring the beaver environment does what exactly?

It is not about restarting a "beaver environment". It is about restoring an ecology that includes beavers. Thus, from the question, you do not quite understand the issue.

It is like asking... what good does restoring the XYZ animal do exactly? Or what good is Art? Or literature? or... any XYZ. That is a question demonstrating ignorance of complexity, on many levels (from ethics on up). Much like saying, what good does restoring the human economy post virus do exactly? Well the answer you may have regarding the latter, may be great for humans but lousy for beavers, or poor people who were already suffering under the current "economy". Thus you put yourself above other issues, but do you ask  "restoring the prior existing economic system.... does what exactly"?. Thus the question, and answer, is anthropomorphic. And begs the question ..... Can you not expand your mind, heart and soul to think beyond your own interests? Are you incapable of being part of a greater whole? And being part of that greater whole, and respecting that whole, may actually be in your benefit, even if you do not recognize it today.

Ok, great but maybe I should rephrase....

If project starts for creating or restoring a beaver environment, what benefits will flow from that?   I mean, why beaver and not say choose mooses, eagles or snakes?  Beaver seems to be flavour of the month.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's interesting but I think this is a bit romantic over your extended Goldie relationship.  I think it'd eat you eventually regardless of breed and regardless of training. .

And your experience with dog ownership is...... How many years? Mine is 4 decades.

But I am willing to test our opinions.

Experimentally.

You come here, bring your dog, kill yourself, drop dead, and I will monitor if my dog or your dog eats your face....  and when. Promise to publish honest reports. Will even 24/7 video tape it for proof. If you are right... I will of course be honest and state this in the publication.

Challenge given... will you accept? Or you can just state your years of dog ownership are limited, that you do not have a degree in Biology, much less animal behavior (yes, I have a minor in that) have not studied canids, and retract saying I was.. "romantic", and all other than that was simply your uneducated, inexperienced Internet (i.e. because you can, not that you should) opinion.... **

(do note the emoji, because they do seem to befuddle you... )

** In exchange... since so much is "monetary" (as in exchange rates), I will admit I have no clue how to weld, fix a US car (being an American -- how weird is that?), and swear that Marmite is better than Vegemite (even though I have never tasted either). 

I was in Tescos and you can easily buy Marmite there.  Now you can live the dream.  Don't waste time on Vegemite.

You really do need to know how to weld if you are on a farm.  I'm trying to get my kids to take an interest do it as it's very useful as a skill. It's like driving, putting a plug on, changing a car wheel, check the tyre air pressure/fluids etc, screwing in a screw or cutting a bit of wood.  It's worth getting a cheap stick welder, mask, gloves, hammer etc and trying to weld bits of metal together. 

I don't think it's necessary experiment for me to meet my demise to see if your dog is hungry or not as I pretty much know the dog is going to revert to type.  That's what they do.

I had a dog when I a teenager 40+ years ago but didn't keep it with me as I went off to Uni.  However, the latest Goldie here has been trained by the kids and I so we have some knowledge of what works.   We've been working on "fetch" at the moment which is proving quite hard work. We can do quite a lot of "tricks" now (all using Hungarian commands).  We're having trouble with walking without a lead.   Any suggestions?

So come on then Dr Dog, what's the outcome for a trained dog locked in a room with a dead or unconscious body on the floor and a diminishing open bag of food?  Eat the body or starve to death.. It's the same thing - just like people would and did in history (as cannibalism in wagon trains and air crashes has proved).

Intuitively we know it's going to eat your face off or maybe chew your feet and hands as these are likely to be exposed.

BTW, they don't have an emoji for a face half eaten by a golden retriever.

fluffy2560 wrote:

If project starts for creating or restoring a beaver environment, what benefits will flow from that?   I mean, why beaver and not say choose mooses, eagles or snakes?  Beaver seems to be flavour of the month.

Good question.

And there is a simple answer: Keystone species.

Beavers, by their behavior, create ecological beneficial habit for moose and eagles and snakes. So help spending time and money and effort to help beavers, and you help moose, eagles and snakes without any extra costs or input... because that is how ecology works.... And even more economical.  Getting it now?

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

If project starts for creating or restoring a beaver environment, what benefits will flow from that?   I mean, why beaver and not say choose mooses, eagles or snakes?  Beaver seems to be flavour of the month.

Good question.

And there is a simple answer: Keystone species.

Beavers, by their behavior, create ecological beneficial habit for moose and eagles and snakes. So help spending time and money and effort to help beavers, and you help moose, eagles and snakes without any extra costs or input... because that is how ecology works.... And even more economical.  Getting it now?

Keystone species is good..... I think we need to be more specific - beavers make dams, make flooded areas, make what? watering holes? Swamps? Mosquito breeding grounds? Bird nesting sites?  I'm more interested in how it works for flood control.

I think I need a flowchart.....

I am surprised there's quite a difference between Eurasian and North American beavers.  Entirely different species.

BTW, the Wildcats I mentioned before do not seem to have much of a purpose not fulfilled by other animals but they are just indigenous and cute - much cuter than a beaver.  I'm still hoping for the woolly mammoth to come back.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I'm more interested in how it works for flood control.

Ergo are thinking like an engineer. Not thinking like an ecologist or environmental expert.

That is, engineering issues are compartmentalized issues. Solutions to assumed simple and specific "issues". Meanwhile, an ecologist must think in terms of the collective whole. Holistically. Engineering is short term thinking. Ecology is long term thinking.

If you only think of flood "control", you may actually be causing problems if you do not think of the larger, complex, web related long term effects of "flood control":

https://www.online-sciences.com/the-env … dvantages/

fluffy2560 wrote:

watering holes? Swamps? Mosquito breeding grounds? Bird nesting sites?

Yes. All of the above. And much, much more that you probably had not thought of.

And... if you understand ecology... even things you may see as nasty have some value (when held in ecologically relevant contexts).

For example, swamps are very important in cleaning water, providing flood and erosion control (and more cost effective than human built impoundment), being nursery sites for economically important species (shrimp and oysters for example need mangrove swamps).

Even mosquito larva are food for small fish, which are food for large fish and animals, which are food for people. Mosquito are food for birds and bats, which  eat other insects (insects that may cause huge crop damage). Which help agriculture a lot (not just in controlling insect damage, but in providing products like guano). Ecology is a complex web. But it is all interconnected. Break one thread, and much may become unraveled.... as we are seeing today in issue like bee colony collapse.... Of course, mosquitos also have health issues (malaria, yellow fever, etc). So it is a complex relationship. But ones that can be managed.... but sadly often not well managed often simply due to political or economic reasons (not ecological or epidemically ones).

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I'm more interested in how it works for flood control.

Ergo are thinking like an engineer. Not thinking like an ecologist or environmental expert.

That is, engineering issues are compartmentalized issues. Solutions to assumed simple and specific "issues". Meanwhile, an ecologist must think in terms of the collective whole. Holistically. Engineering is short term thinking. Ecology is long term thinking.

If you only think of flood "control", you may actually be causing problems if you do not think of the larger, complex, web related long term effects of "flood control":

Depending on what's being done time horizons of 100'ish years are not unusual for construction.

Maybe it's weakness in modelling of ecological or environmental systems.

It's also not entirely compartmentalised.  We all know larger problems are broken down into smaller components that humans can handle - that's just normal and what we're taught.  With better systems, there will be ways of modelling multi-dimensionally representations which can take into account a different views of a system (or collection of interrelated systems - an example is an economy).

There have to be integration requirements too in larger systems for smaller components.  A typical solution would be to use analytics to synthesise a model beaver.  The model would include key themes which would include dam construction, modification of channels, capture of silt, reduction of trees/bushes etc.  Wouldn't matter if it was actually a beaver there as far as the model is concerned - it's a beaver like agent.    In the simulation  the model beaver would provide outputs into the rest of the system in response to inputs.   

Just analogies between natural or biological systems and technology solutions.  Beavers are of course less predictable than models but probably not significantly. 

That thinking also turns up in movies and on TV - hive mind in Star Trek as the Borg or a giant simulation like Westworld.

BTW, regarding flood control, it was an example as  it's often the thing most quoted as part of beaver benefits.    Flowcharts would be beavers slow water,  traps silt, encourages wildlife food chain, consumes trees, creates forests,  stops run off and soil erosion,  increases diversity which brings in other animals encouraging sustainable environment for carbon capture.    That sort of thing in a flowchart.

I'm all beavered out now.

I was very interested in the "would the dog eat me?" question, so I had to Google... Seems this is a topic of some interest to the world...

Found many references,,, Most say the same: Dogs would.  I must say I would (like to) think Goldies would hold out longer than pit bulls or chihuahuas before indulging, but the evidence points to a mini buffet before the meat goes bad (if the dog is hungry enough).

Yes. Dogs are perfectly willing to eat human corpses, and there's no evidence that they treat their masters differently than any other dead body. Many cultures consider dogs unclean precisely because of their tendency to scavenge our remains. In The Iliad, Homer makes nine references to dogs eating dead bodies.

Rando mentions a sordid case that was analyzed in a 1994 study published in the American Journal of Forensic Medicine & Pathology.

The case involves a middle-aged woman who got too drunk and passed out. Her dog, a red setter, had started biting her face while she was unconscious. She later died, but the dog couldn't even wait a whole day to munch on his owner — and started chewing on her face within 16 hours of the woman last being seen alive.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/na … er-you-die
(I know it says cats in this link, but dogs are included.)

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news … s-science/https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/if- … -eating-me

Vicces1 wrote:

I was very interested in the "would the dog eat me?" question, so I had to Google... Seems this is a topic of some interest to the world...

Found many references,,, Most say the same: Dogs would.  I must say I would (like to) think Goldies would hold out longer than pit bulls or chihuahuas before indulging, but the evidence points to a mini buffet before the meat goes bad (if the dog is hungry enough).

Yes. Dogs are perfectly willing to eat human corpses, and there's no evidence that they treat their masters differently than any other dead body. Many cultures consider dogs unclean precisely because of their tendency to scavenge our remains. In The Iliad, Homer makes nine references to dogs eating dead bodies.

Rando mentions a sordid case that was analyzed in a 1994 study published in the American Journal of Forensic Medicine & Pathology.

The case involves a middle-aged woman who got too drunk and passed out. Her dog, a red setter, had started biting her face while she was unconscious. She later died, but the dog couldn't even wait a whole day to munch on his owner — and started chewing on her face within 16 hours of the woman last being seen alive.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/na … er-you-die
(I know it says cats in this link, but dogs are included.)

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news … s-science/https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/if- … -eating-me

That's serious research. 

It looks like Fido will go for it but Fluffy the Cat will not necessarily indulge.  The hamster one was rather unusual. I learnt something there.  I'll have to think twice now I look at a hamster as cute and cuddly.  It's clearly a vicious scavenger with no sense of decorum. I am very surprised at how little time it takes before dogs go for it.  Just hours if even that, possibly minutes. 

Basically there's no romance in it or about loyalty - dogs are animals and not really our friends - it's more like a symbiosis.  Both get something out of it.

Mrs Fluffy here suggested a different slant - how long before hungry humans eat the dog or cat?  I think possibly 3 weeks it can be resisted.  There's the rule of 3 for life - 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food.  Probably at the end of week 3, it'll be a fight to the death before getting too weak to take on Rover.

One of the Fluffyettes suggested that she'd never eat the cat and would rather die. The cat I think has other plans.

You would be shocked to know what you would eat if hungry enough.
My step-dad was a 2 X POW, said rats are not all that bad..
My 1st.step-dad was very young in the 1930's during the depression in the US. He was the eldest of 9 like my father was. He said he never got enough food to eat and was always so hungry as a 8 -9 year old that he would dig into trash cans for food, in Penn. USA. His dad was a coal miner and always worked but not enough income for 11 people to eat well.
My mom was lucky, her mother was a cook for a wealthy family who never ate left overs.,granny was always able to bring home the old Sunday roast on Monday.
Later when her mom died and the meal train was over with the gov. gave out food to people in cans. One items was called, "Bully Beef" later they found out it was horse meat.
My husband has shared tales his uncle told him about WW11 in Budapest, No cats or dogs to be seen anywhere and if a bomb hit a horse that was used to carry anything from coal to ice got killed then people would run out from the woodworks with saw/knife or ax in hand and the entire horse was gone in about 5 mins. flat.
I have heard that my mother's people the Mohawks would eat the liver and hearts from their enemies, I wonder if they just had a bad harvest that season and couldn't help themselves?
Don't forget the Donner party in the US. They got stuck in the snow and everyone had to go.They were eating their dead for months.
Actually a couple months back when I saw all those fat healthy dogs being walked in Budapest I told my husband, it  is all good, maybe we will have a nice BBQ later...Seriously if you look it up you will find that Germany had to send away all of it's prize award winning dogs out of the country during the war to save their DNA. One reason we have such a good stock of dogs in the USA.
Don't I wish I was making this up. Sad really...
Hard to believe but when we had our huge 105 Lbs. Doberman in quarantine in Honolulu beofre they stopped that savage law, I was pulled aside 2 times from 2 different people . One in the quarantine area told me he was there because he loved dogs and was there to watch out for them. An older white man who had to Vientamise adopted sons. He told me all about his history as a super, super rich man in Vietnam before the war. When all heck broke loose his mansion was over run and his American wife and 2 "natural" sons were murdered , he was able to escape Vietnam with his 2 adopted sons. They had to leave all their wealth in Asia and start from scratch in Hawaii. His 2 sons helped support him in his old age after years of struggle on the sts. of Honolulu.Well he told me that his US gov. run quarantine center used to have a huge issue when he started working there. In Asian culture they do eat dogs and huge black dogs are the best to eat, so they say. He said many people paid to have their dogs in the center and then they just went misssing. At night the local workers would pick the "chewy" dogs, the large black ones mostly and sell them for a local BBQ/party. He said he was working there to make sure the dogs were safe. Nothing like scaring the heck out of me as the owner of a huge black dog.
Later when we moved to Hilo my landlord told us one day in his own simple way to keep an eye on our dag. He said some of his neighbors down the hill had no problem with a big  black yummy dog. He also told me one day he saw a roaming Rottie dog, called to the dog to save it but the dog just kept on going. He said, "We no see him no more'> He was eaten I guess. I was sure to move away when my lease was up. Wish I was making this up but no, for real.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

You would be shocked to know what you would eat if hungry enough.
My step-dad was a 2 X POW, said rats are not all that bad..

My 1st.step-dad was very young in the 1930's during the depression in the US. He was the eldest of 9 like my father was. He said he never got enough food to eat and was always so hungry as a 8 -9 year old that he would dig into trash cans for food, in Penn. USA. His dad was a coal miner and always worked but not enough income for 11 people to eat well.

.......Seriously if you look it up you will find that Germany had to send away all of it's prize award winning dogs out of the country during the war to save their DNA. One reason we have such a good stock of dogs in the USA...

..... he told me that his US gov. run quarantine center used to have a huge issue when he started working there. In Asian culture they do eat dogs and huge black dogs are the best to eat, so they say. He said many people paid to have their dogs in the center and then they just went misssing. At night the local workers would pick the "chewy" dogs, the large black ones mostly and sell them for a local BBQ/party. He said he was working there to make sure the dogs were safe. Nothing like scaring the heck out of me as the owner of a huge black dog.

Later when we moved to Hilo my landlord told us one day in his own simple way to keep an eye on our dag. He said some of his neighbors down the hill had no problem with a big  black yummy dog. He also told me one day he saw a roaming Rottie dog, called to the dog to save it but the dog just kept on going. He said, "We no see him no more'> He was eaten I guess. I was sure to move away when my lease was up. Wish I was making this up but no, for real.

Blimey, that's yet another story for your forthcoming book Marilyn.  Really, that's a great set of anecdotes there.   

I was just thinking that the concept of a food bank was an anathema back in the 1920s.  Even here, having contact with your relatives in the countryside could save you in times of shortages plus of course the idea of having your own patch to till the soil and grow stuff.   If this goes on much longer here with C19 (it's getting shorter - coronavirus, covid19 and now it's reached C19), we'll all be looking for patches of ground to grow our own fruit and veg.  That's got to be more efficient that growing dogs.

I don't really know why people want eat dogs just for fun.  I would have thought it was a bit gamey and strong tasting.   Feel less bothered about eating rat in desperation.   Might taste like chicken.

We've got some chickens here and they have no qualms about eating all sorts of garbage.  They are quite keen on our compost heap.   They like anything at all and if it's wriggling, so much the better.  Of course they change it to eggs so really you are eating bugs, grass, seeds and stuff.    Egg convertors I guess.

It is weird how many odd ball stories I have about the oddest subjects.
We had Kangaroo soup once when I was a child but no thanks, not wanting a repeat.
Yes, when I was learning all about Doberman's when we got our Max, I heard that during WW11 German sent over all their prized dogs to the US to save the line.

To clarify my tale, while my Max. dog was in Hawaiian quarantine around 1995 a elderly man working at the complex spoke to me a few times,
he was semi-retired and his adopted sons supported him.
He told me he worked at the compound because it kept him busy plus he loved animals.
he said when he first started to work at the US gov. run compound there was a huge problem.
Many of the larger breeds with black fur were missing.
It turned out that a few of the locals who worked there were selling people's beloved pets for food to locals.
We paid up front for the quarantine and these pets would usually go missing just towards the end of their 4 months, Sort of went under the radar since you couldn't ask for much money back from the state if your pet was gone.
These workers would go in after hours and take dogs to sell.
I had many, many sleepless nights after hearing about that!
I made sure i visited my dog all the time so they knew I was going to be a problem if he went missing.
Many pet owners lived on other Islands and no one ever saw them, their poor pets were so lonely.
We were not allowed to touch, pet or visit any other dogs but our own.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

It is weird how many odd ball stories I have about the oddest subjects.
We had Kangaroo soup once when I was a child but no thanks, not wanting a repeat.
Yes, when I was learning all about Doberman's when we got our Max, I heard that during WW11 German sent over all their prized dogs to the US to save the line.

Oh we've had Kangaroo soup, ostrich and shark soup too.  It was OK but meh...nothing special. 

Strangely enough I was Googling for the WW2 dogs to the USA and I came across a strange story about how people had their pets put down so they didn't have to suffer during the war. 

I found that really strange.

Totally sad about putting pets down out of fear. I saw some old news reels about how in the US many people donated their beloved pets for service during WW11.
Sad to say from the "horses mouth" from my step-dad who was in WW11 and Korea that all the CO's would force people to shoot their service dogs and not ship them home. The dogs were no longer fit to be pets after what they went through.
Many were also used for research to study wounds, all sorts of horrors for a once spoiled loved pet.
Just disgusting to know how they used the public's emotions to do harm.
Even my mother used to go door to door to collect metals from people to donate for the war cause.
She was one of the young ladies who used to draw a line up the back of their legs to look like they had stockings on since all materials were taken for the war effort.
I share these odd tales in hopes that we will not be fooled again.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

....
She was one of the young ladies who used to draw a line up the back of their legs to look like they had stockings on since all materials were taken for the war effort.
I share these odd tales in hopes that we will not be fooled again.

I'm going to make a note to check the back of legs to see if there are lines drawn on them.  I'm not going to get caught out appreciating people wearing clothing that shows real lines. I think the pin up of the time was film star Betty Grable.

I think they wouldn't shoot the war dogs now. They'd bring them home. On the other hand hey could just have given them away for cooking to the locals. 

We have war horses and war dogs and maybe messenger pigeons but you don't see many war giraffes or war orangutans or war foxes.  But I believe the US Navy had killer dolphins. I suppose a kind of killer dolphin drone.  I'd feel very sorry for them but I think I'd be less concerned about a killer cockroach drone but I'm still thinking about drone pigs.

Here's film star Betty in a coquettish pose, faking it without a line up the back of her leg.   She said there was only two reasons she was famous and she was standing on them! 



She died too young - lung cancer.  Sign of the times back then.

From.....singing group...

Hmmm...politics Trumps* human rights...yes, definitely a political issue....

I don't know what it is that drives people to write these songs intended to well up a raft of national romance when quite clearly these places are in some weird state of cognitive dissonance.   

Even yesterday, Hungary changed the law against trans people (Section 33 omnibus COVID19 legislation) and in my own country, they decided they didn't need any help from EU citizens to work in lower paid work such as carers in healthcare or agricultural situations and in the USA, there's too much El Presidente nonsense to even mention here! OK, cannot resist, COVID19 deaths a badge of honour, give me a break.

Where's the romance in nationalist bigoted and retrograde behaviour of the leaders/politicians? 

Maybe someone should write a song on tolerance and equality as an anthem.

* yes, pun intended...

Just in case anyone was wondering, this thread is still alive!

oops