Absolutely Anything Else

-@fluffy2560
It seems many people are under the delusion that aging is an illness and should be cured.
I know when I was 15 I thought everyone over age 25 was old and those over 30 were elderly.
I was 19 when I met my 26 year old husband and it was a bit like dating an older person to me.
I was not around many older people and had no living grandmothers so only was in contact with strangers on the st.as as far as older people.
Age really is just a number and not everyone is lucky to get some years behind them.
The only old person was our grandfather but he was in his 90's and lived across the country from us. He was more of a legion then an actual person.
If it's not racism then it's ageism.
Age is something that sneaks up on one.
-@Marilyn Tassy

I think you are right Marilyn, you wake up one day and you're 60 and so it goes on.  Nowadays, doctors and policemen are all younger than me.

I thought I'd never make it to 40 what with the rock concerts, motorbike riding, boozing and staying up all night burning the candle at both ends.  But I never really did drugs other than the occasional puff on a spliff.  I was obviously an amateur at living it up - living fast etc. I still managed to do my academic studies.

-@fluffy2560
It seems many people are under the delusion that aging is an illness and should be cured.
I know when I was 15 I thought everyone over age 25 was old and those over 30 were elderly.
I was 19 when I met my 26 year old husband and it was a bit like dating an older person to me.
I was not around many older people and had no living grandmothers so only was in contact with strangers on the st.as as far as older people.
Age really is just a number and not everyone is lucky to get some years behind them.
The only old person was our grandfather but he was in his 90's and lived across the country from us. He was more of a legion then an actual person.
If it's not racism then it's ageism.
Age is something that sneaks up on one.
-@Marilyn Tassy

I think you are right Marilyn, you wake up one day and you're 60 and so it goes on. Nowadays, doctors and policemen are all younger than me.

I thought I'd never make it to 40 what with the rock concerts, motorbike riding, boozing and staying up all night burning the candle at both ends. But I never really did drugs other than the occasional puff on a spliff. I was obviously an amateur at living it up - living fast etc. I still managed to do my academic studies.
-@fluffy2560

I never thought I'd make it to 20.

I did all my insanity in my mid to late teen years. I guess I'm a person who likes being semi-protected. I knew whatever BS I did as a teen , my mother was always there to get me out of a pinch. I really got it together on my 18th BD when I knew any trouble I got into was on me.

Not that I was a solid citizen at 18 but passing out , hanging on to lamp poles and swearing at the police as they passed by were no longer on my menu card. Things that are,"cute" at 17 aren't so cute as an adult

There is one 6 month period of my life 17 1/2 to 18 that I will not fess up to. I even went by an alias...

All good because I can hardly remember that time.

I really just hurt myself more then anyone else or any property.

On aother topic...

I hope our fellow poster, CDW057  and his wife are well in Turkey.

That has to be very scary to go through such a large earthquake.

Another Earthquake has just hit the country

On aother topic...
I hope our fellow poster, CDW057 and his wife are well in Turkey.
That has to be very scary to go through such a large earthquake.
-@Marilyn Tassy

Pictures show terrible devastation.   Video I've seen show snow on the ground.   So people are going to be really cold without shelter.   The quake was far away from the West of Turkey and on the border with Syria.   Far from our fellow contributor I suppose.

BTW Marilyn, surely you would have known all about living through earthquakes coming from CA.

@Marilyn TassyThank you, we are quite fine, having said that we had some earth quakes over the last year, but this magnitude was absolutely massive. Quite a special (scary) experience, since 10+ years they have quite some strong regulations so it was fine even the building was moving quite a bit. In our village most of the buildings are new so I saw nothing special (some small damages but nothing serious).

For Hungary I think strong buildings are good, for where we live in Turkey it is essential (just a furter put damages were quite horrible).

People help everywhere and that is great to see, in that sense it is a shame we do not live in Hungary (100+ bottles of water, winter clothes, ...), Here we have a small (not so small) apartment, but very little in storage, the only thing we could do is contribute financially (but the government can as well).

I am not always proud to be Dutch, but I think Netherlands was the first country to offer assistance (Erdogan accepted), US and Israel were also fast (I think Putin missed out).

Well, cdw057 we are all relieved to hear you both are fine.

I grew up in S.Ca. but 7.8 is huge.

I remember we would have quakes in the middle of the night where my son husband and  I would just get out of bed and stand in a doorway half asleep. Once it stopped rolling we just went back off to dream land. it happened so often one gets used to it.

Once my husband was machining on a lathe machine when a quake hit. He just causually shut the machine off and found a place to stand with protection.

We had the big Slymar quake when I was in HS, woke me up because my bed was skipping across th floor.That was only 6.5 and was strong enough for me.

Hopefully the after shocks will be alright.

Can I ask how old you are?

I'm 62
-@fluffy2560

In person: yes.

Online/ remote: nowdays it called middle aged.

Too cynical? That is occupacional hazard (security industry).

Or why are you interested?

Can I ask how old you are?

I'm 62
-@fluffy2560

In person: yes.

Online/ remote: nowdays it called middle aged.

Too cynical? That is occupacional hazard (security industry).
Or why are you interested?
-@sjbabilon5

I wondered when some of your views were formed.  I was just curious to know.   Nothing wrong with healthy cynicism.

Mine formed mainly in during the Cold War, but also influenced by the fall of the Wall and the optimism thereafter plus of course early life in the socialised UK and subsequent Thatcher years.   However, my working life was completely internationalised in many countries from about 27 onwards.  I've lived more outside my own country than in it. 

My BIL's views are very right wing.  To me, it's an mystery how that could have happened - I lived through the same period and came to a completely different conclusion as far as my political beliefs are or were concerned. But I was an adult during the turmoil here around 1989. Mrs F was also an adult and seems to have the same views as me even though we have completely different backgrounds.

I wondered when some of your views were formed. I was just curious to know. 
-@fluffy2560

Ah.

Well I would say that is mainly during the chaotic 90's: well the experiences and views which are notable up to date. Or the 2000's when the last remains of compromise dropped.

Actually I did cut it/ delete some problematic part.

But certain hertitages are also notable prior: military nobility family up till end of ww1, a family which sacrificed everything afterwards in ww2 from 16 (not stillbirth/ infant mortality) kids before ww2 -> after 1945: 2 survived: 1 who was too young to do anything and female, and another who had LARGE luck as female frontline nurse (core family).

After ww2 white guard/ rural defence (extended family), after that 1956, after that virtually even extended family wiped out.

So in the 1980's at the bookselvf there were the expected - politically correct Marx, Lenin, partisan novels, socialism this and that, and in attic, cellar, under the parquet flooring the old letters, daires, seal ring (which ended up in a pawnshop in the 90's) and the family stories about 500 years of war and resistance.

So the 90's:

When people realized what means en masse the stealing, crime, maffia, privatization, selling the public wealth to the oligarchs, to abroad, let outlanders to destroy economy, industry, inflation + vanished life savings, destroyed hope, families.

Some bombings, daytime rides with gunfight, when a box of AK47 was cost one month minimal wage straight from the looted military bases. Politicians and wanna be rich who rise and fall. Chaos, no safety, stability, instead: strugle, crime, shadow economy.

Imports from the west which turn out to be worse than the "gulash communism" such swear words as: liberalism, neoconservatism, loans, democracy, "law and order", "rule of law", rights and privilages. Tolerance instead of the capability to say yes or no.

The forever wars from the "world police" military complex: the destruction of bordering Serbia, enforced NATO membership which needed bases to do terror bombing and destruction of infrastructure at the Balcans, and the luck that at least some decision maker had a little spine, and Hungary did not obey to get massacred in Serbia for the interest of the military complex.

Off course they were portrayed as the god guys: champions of human rights, democracy, modern values and civilization. RE-building/ new Marshall Plans are nearly as good business as war itself, or when an oil (gas, opium) rich country needs some democracy and open society.

While we listen from old radio magnos IRA, Hezbollah, and Palestinian songs or virtually anything where any force done resistance against a superior power which wanted to occupy their people/ land, or rule economically, culturaly, or in whatever manner.

The agressive promotion and enforcement of harmful ideologies which became mainstream since the mad 1960's in the US/ West Europe.

Uncle Soros did not start recently, in the 90's and early 2000's was more active and in bed with the whole political spectrum in Hungary includes the present ruling elite.

The 2000's:

The time when because traitors did as their puppet masters commanded Hungary needed to join the EU, just a few know exactly what will happen.

Compared to present many like me was just mildly against it (mildly still = no to join): carried some promise/ possible acceptable outcome. False expectations. To be good was not the plan of the background powers.

Colonization, extraction, destruction of what remained from national economy, or nation at all. Patriots public enemy number one closely followed by normality: families, marriage, children, society, etc...

The old Europe what we defended and fighted for centuries is in the past. Such values became "outdated", "barbaric", non-modern, not compatible with liberal democracy.

2006 - 2011:

Tensions blow. Suddenly many realised what happened since the end of 1980's, what was the plan all along, where does it lead.

Nor the New World Order backed government, nor their Terror Police Captain capable to suppress the revolution. Off course western mainstream media does not cover it too much, after all their overlords are also the puppet masters of the trubled ruling elite here.

They do not report when government occupies sometimes whole settlements along with commandos and rout out people from bed. Nor reported strange "accidents" and "suicides". The revolution not limited to the capital.

The country in chaos, street fights with police, rise of banned paramilitaries. The time when real radicals divided from loud "voice radicals" and softcores. Occasionally EU and US flags burning, various political parties try to take advantage and gather votes from angry people.

From 2011:

The trubles are long, people became tired, want peace and order mainly the average, the softcore.

They elect a regime which promise order and conservative supression which abadons it's origins when was liberal, pro-western, in bed with Uncle Soros and other puppet masters from the New World Order.

Instead became populist, appear as nationalist.

They love power, and wealth, but strangely enought partly deliver and partly try to deliver their promises. Inreasing order, stability, some wealth even for the lesser classes, various background deals with opponents, radicals, careful diplomatic tactical balances. At least they wish to keep their throne, and have some sense. Instead of fighting against own nationals with partly foreign forces in foreign interests as previous regimes did - they try to minimalise resistance by not anger that much Hungarians mainly when a policy would not benefit national or local oligarchic interests, but just the NWO.

No experiences are not unique, nor conclusions/ attitudes.

Millions have similar experiences and end up in similar opinions in East Europe the ones who were matured enought in/ right before the 90's chaos.

No matter a country in Eurasia NATO member or not, EU member or not in which block stands even among arch enemies like Poland - Russia millions of common folks have similar experiences/ thinking from the 90's, democracy, rule of law, or what sold nowdays as "european values".

Or the reason why conservative autoriters can remain on the throne, have some support or at least acceptance, oligarchs can strill exist and increase wealth.

https://youtu.be/j1C8awu_d6Y?t=498

That is a very familiar sort of tale for people in Europe.

My husband's family is very similar in history.

He grew up in a communist society, left for the west as a young man with an open mind.

Became a Budhist and still holds views that don't fit into most of what is called the,'norm".

All I can say is the earth is not our real home and it's run by those who are enemies of good.

I personally put little stock in the materail life, it's fading fast and all the riches in the world can't be taken with you.

Of course no one wants to be homeless or hungry, we are experiencing life with a earthly body that needs care. It's the greed and selfishness that is more damaging then even war is. At least in war you know you your enemy is.

Of course no one wants to be homeless or hungry, we are experiencing life with a earthly body that needs care. It's the greed and selfishness that is more damaging then even war is. At least in war you know you your enemy is.
-@Marilyn Tassy

That reminded me of the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse:

• Pestilence
• War
• Famine
• Death

I was just reading about the civilians trapped in Bakhmut, Ukraine who are being relentlessly ground down by Russians. Conditions seem worse than dire.

I am not sure we really know exactly who our enemies would be in war. All of the above of course.

But I was thinking there are more horses/horsemen that could be added - maybe pride, politics, greed, ego.

I honestly dislike being negative but I don't see much in the way of things improving anytime soon.

I seem to see things at least for myself more clearly then  ever.

Like I mentioned before, when I was really ill I had a "religious" experience. I am not religious but that is the only way I can discribe what came over me.

A feeling of complete peace no matter what.

Of course like most people I have days when I wory about silly things or small issues but as far as the big picture goes, I'm fine with whatever happens.

I know this life isn't the real one, this is a testing ground.

Hey, maybe they put something in my IV? I seem a bit like a Hippie now!

I honestly dislike being negative but I don't see much in the way of things improving anytime soon.
I seem to see things at least for myself more clearly then ever.
Like I mentioned before, when I was really ill I had a "religious" experience. I am not religious but that is the only way I can discribe what came over me.
A feeling of complete peace no matter what.
Of course like most people I have days when I wory about silly things or small issues but as far as the big picture goes, I'm fine with whatever happens.
I know this life isn't the real one, this is a testing ground.
Hey, maybe they put something in my IV? I seem a bit like a Hippie now!
-@Marilyn Tassy

Oh for sure. Being ill certainly makes one focus on what's important right then. Who cares if the grass needs mowing or that the living room needs vacuuming.

I had what seemed to be a small medical incident in the past few weeks but after consulting Dr Google, we realised it could have ended in permanent and life changing disability. Luckily it seems to have been resolved at a hospital because we took immediate action. There are some residual effects and further treatment will be inevitable. It was a bullet I think I may have dodged.

Suddenly, because of that incident, everything else became absolutely unimportant while it was going on.

If you are "Hippy" relaxed now, I want what you're having!

Oh no, I am so very glad to hear your medical issue has been dealth with.

My goodness, they say if you live past your 60's then you have a good chance of living a very long life.

Pain meds, I actually didn't take anything stronger then a couple of aspirins while I was really ill.

I have since found out most people who went through what  I did are on strong oxy or even moriphine.

I guess I'm naturally,"comfortably numb"! Oh just dumb... always get the ,"good stuff" if it's offered!

I have been on some naproxon 550 mg. for my knee, actually I really don't need it since my knee injections seem to have worked.

I was out with my husband today in the cold walking around the Lehal Piac.

Super chilly outside.

Nice to be home and warm again.

My family is having a big Pow-Wow thing for my deceased brother in mid Sept. in New Mexico.

Now my cousin who was going to MC the ceremony is moving before then back to the Phillipines with his wife.

She is so excited the leave the US and see her fmaily again.

He brought her to the US because she thought she'd like living there, guess not after all.

He was really ill with cancer and is now healed.

I suppose the thought of being alone in the US was to much for her and she is getting while the getting is good.

Perhaps we can visit him over there, it would be nice to have someone there who knows what's going on and knows the customs.

One thing that is for sure in life is change.

I was just reading about the civilians trapped in Bakhmut, Ukraine who are being relentlessly ground down by Russians. Conditions seem worse than dire.


-@fluffy2560

At the East things hardly changing.

Remember ww2, when during the siege of Stalingrad many civilians remained in their place? No matter artillery, daily house to house fights, xconstant gunfire: they lived there, that was their place.

Not long back there was a video (I did not find it again):

UKR police visited a shelled residental building.

Ground floor a family:

Police: Are you all right?

Mother: Yes, only the upper floors damaged.

Police: We come to evacuate you.

Mother: You will not. Leave, I have no time for you, baby needs feeding.

At the top floor (or actually what remained) old woman.

No roof, half of the walls missing, damaged furniture get wet by rain.

Still refuse to leave with police and claims that is her flat and will stay there...

Same after Chernobil.

There just a nuclear plant get blown up, some still refused to leave:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcOS4q0RD-w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m_r-7diwHA

This is a fine interview with much needed reality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbD4WBqPg4

I did laught often in things like the: where is the KFC truck, that was in Iraq during mission/ how useless spoiled modern-regular armies/ soldiers often with 10+ years of official military service opposed with freshmeat who accept war/ reality as it is.

Oh no, I am so very glad to hear your medical issue has been dealth with.
My goodness, they say if you live past your 60's then you have a good chance of living a very long life.
Pain meds, I actually didn't take anything stronger then a couple of aspirins while I was really ill.
I have since found out most people who went through what I did are on strong oxy or even moriphine.
I guess I'm naturally,"comfortably numb"! Oh just dumb... always get the ,"good stuff" if it's offered!
I have been on some naproxon 550 mg. for my knee, actually I really don't need it since my knee injections seem to have worked.
I was out with my husband today in the cold walking around the Lehal Piac.
Super chilly outside.
Nice to be home and warm again.
My family is having a big Pow-Wow thing for my deceased brother in mid Sept. in New Mexico.
Now my cousin who was going to MC the ceremony is moving before then back to the Phillipines with his wife.
She is so excited the leave the US and see her fmaily again.
He brought her to the US because she thought she'd like living there, guess not after all.
He was really ill with cancer and is now healed.
I suppose the thought of being alone in the US was to much for her and she is getting while the getting is good.
Perhaps we can visit him over there, it would be nice to have someone there who knows what's going on and knows the customs.
One thing that is for sure in life is change.
-@Marilyn Tassy

Maybe you can get the Pow-Wow in NM streamed online.  That's a real thing these days.  People were doing that with COVID funerals. I spend a lot of time in  video conferences.

I was 50-50 on doing something about this medical problem.  I was just going to put it off but I was soon convinced after reading about it.  We were in the hospital a couple of times and I have one more visit to see if it's resolved for good.  In the meantime, no heavy lifting, heavy work or extreme physical exercise or doing any headbanging. I wasn't even meant to watch TV or read.  Oh dear!  I can walk slowly, but not run.  It's messing up my garden work for sure.  I wanted to bang a hole in the walls of my outbuilding for various utilities.

My FIL had a medical issue (not the same as mine) and he put it off preferring to remain in bed.. Eventually he couldn't stand up. It was too late then.  If he'd gone to the hospital, he'd probably still be here.  As it turned out, he was supposed to be on blood thinners and he didn't take them - his attitude was "you know, doctors, what do they know and it'll interfere with my boozing".  And so it came to pass, he died of an embolism (blood clot).   If he'd gone immediately to the hospital, they could have take the clot out or dissolved it.   Meh.

This is a fine interview with much needed reality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbD4WBqPg4

I did laught often in things like the: where is the KFC truck, that was in Iraq during mission/ how useless spoiled modern-regular armies/ soldiers often with 10+ years of official military service opposed with freshmeat who accept war/ reality as it is.
-@sjbabilon5

When I was in the Air Force, we had the Texas National Guard visit our station.  And they did the cooking.  It was fantastic chow.  Really good.  Outrageously good in fact.

As a foot soldier, we were really doing heavy exercise 70%-80% of the time - carrying kit/weapons, running, jumping in and out of trucks, being cold, being hot, out all night on exercises.  And we really did need calories.  I reckon we used 4000 calories a day when on exercise, 2500 calories when not.  We were ravenous nearly all the time.  It wasn't spoiling us to give us good food (i.e not KFC etc).  We really needed it to do our jobs.  I actually liked the ration packs - very nutritious and loads of calories.  Whoever made them up knew what they were doing.

When I was younger in the UK, I used to drive past an American air base (in the UK, they are nominally RAF bases, but they are actually US bases). I was surprised to see something like Burger King through the fencing, American style police cars driving around and wot not.  It was like little America.  I know those on the base got cheap petrol and I used to see them in their US cars driving around the area.  Everything was shipped in. I never saw a US serviceman in a UK supermarket.  They'd go to the supermarket on base.

There's a scene in movie where Rommel is complaining about the lack of fuel for his tanks during WW2 battles in North Africa.  They capture some assets and find a birthday cake .  And Rommel is shocked that the Allies have access to fuel sufficient in such quantities that they can fly in birthday cakes, 1000s of miles to a battlefield. 

US and Allies have fantastic logistics.  They know how to shift many things in large  quantities to the most unlikely places. Even KFC.

Yes, I know post WW11 the American servicemen where known to always have a Hersey candy bar for the children.

KFC and McDondals on a base probably have Starbucks and Subway too.

Candy bars when some other countries military don't even have enough bullets.

I've watched old movies about how the Russian soldiers had to share a rifle.

One guy would run behind the other and pick up the rifle after the other man went down.

I know it's because the US tax payers fund the military so much while the average US citizen has lousy health care and education.

I had to stop watching the news abut Turkey and Syria, just too heavy and too sad.

As far as the US gov. being so generous with giving away military equipemnt to countires such as the Ukraine, there has to be a larger agenda.

They are dumping old outdated items to them so industry in the US can replace everything givin away with newer models.

The wheels have to keep turning.

If that not the main reason then the Ukraine is going to have to pay it all back sooner or later in the way of favors or trade deals in the future.

Sad to say nothing in life is really free.

There are always strings .

Oh no, I am so very glad to hear your medical issue has been dealth with.
My goodness, they say if you live past your 60's then you have a good chance of living a very long life.
Pain meds, I actually didn't take anything stronger then a couple of aspirins while I was really ill.
I have since found out most people who went through what I did are on strong oxy or even moriphine.
I guess I'm naturally,"comfortably numb"! Oh just dumb... always get the ,"good stuff" if it's offered!
I have been on some naproxon 550 mg. for my knee, actually I really don't need it since my knee injections seem to have worked.
I was out with my husband today in the cold walking around the Lehal Piac.
Super chilly outside.
Nice to be home and warm again.
My family is having a big Pow-Wow thing for my deceased brother in mid Sept. in New Mexico.
Now my cousin who was going to MC the ceremony is moving before then back to the Phillipines with his wife.
She is so excited the leave the US and see her fmaily again.
He brought her to the US because she thought she'd like living there, guess not after all.
He was really ill with cancer and is now healed.
I suppose the thought of being alone in the US was to much for her and she is getting while the getting is good.
Perhaps we can visit him over there, it would be nice to have someone there who knows what's going on and knows the customs.
One thing that is for sure in life is change.
-@Marilyn Tassy

Maybe you can get the Pow-Wow in NM streamed online. That's a real thing these days. People were doing that with COVID funerals. I spend a lot of time in video conferences.

I was 50-50 on doing something about this medical problem. I was just going to put it off but I was soon convinced after reading about it. We were in the hospital a couple of times and I have one more visit to see if it's resolved for good. In the meantime, no heavy lifting, heavy work or extreme physical exercise or doing any headbanging. I wasn't even meant to watch TV or read. Oh dear! I can walk slowly, but not run. It's messing up my garden work for sure. I wanted to bang a hole in the walls of my outbuilding for various utilities.

My FIL had a medical issue (not the same as mine) and he put it off preferring to remain in bed.. Eventually he couldn't stand up. It was too late then. If he'd gone to the hospital, he'd probably still be here. As it turned out, he was supposed to be on blood thinners and he didn't take them - his attitude was "you know, doctors, what do they know and it'll interfere with my boozing". And so it came to pass, he died of an embolism (blood clot).  If he'd gone immediately to the hospital, they could have take the clot out or dissolved it.  Meh.
-@fluffy2560

Yes, I've asked if it could be recorded or live streamed. IDK, some of those ceramonial things are suppose to be private.

As a foot soldier, we were really doing heavy exercise 70%-80% of the time - carrying kit/weapons, running, jumping in and out of trucks, being cold, being hot, out all night on exercises. And we really did need calories. I reckon we used 4000 calories a day when on exercise, 2500 calories when not.

-@fluffy2560

I think that is the same everywhere.

During training/ excercises we used to eat homemade sausages without bread. Energy was in need but when you know a half hour later you may crawl under the the barbed wire a full stomach is a disadvantage.

There's a scene in movie where Rommel is complaining about the lack of fuel for his tanks during WW2 battles in North Africa. They capture some assets and find a birthday cake . And Rommel is shocked that the Allies have access to fuel sufficient in such quantities that they can fly in birthday cakes, 1000s of miles to a battlefield.

-@fluffy2560

That film is the "Battle of the Bulge" from 1965, the Ardennes Counteroffensive.

US and Allies have fantastic logistics. They know how to shift many things in large quantities to the most unlikely places. Even KFC.
-@fluffy2560

Sure. Problem starts when that cannot be done.

As the guy said too: modern armies are mostly spoiled: good logistics, good medevac, nice reserves, fine MRE, full digital support.

I remember even in early stages of Iraq there was some study about how dangerous can be the "digital soldier" program in the long run, and US Army must embrace some "ranger type" training and not rely always on techology/ all provided conditions.

As it seems such approach is dismissed mostly - I gues was not a good business money wise for certain interest groups.

I've watched old movies about how the Russian soldiers had to share a rifle.
One guy would run behind the other and pick up the rifle after the other man went down.

-@Marilyn Tassy

That happened then.

At present regulars in Russia do not differ that much from other modern armies...

"Oh dude happy new year I just uploaded some pic. to my instagram!"

OOOPs.

Ukr just bombed a few hundred of us as new years celebration after they located several hundred smartphones connected to the internet from the same location...

As far as the US gov. being so generous with giving away military equipemnt to countires such as the Ukraine, there has to be a larger agenda.
They are dumping old outdated items to them so industry in the US can replace everything givin away with newer models.
-@Marilyn Tassy

Yeah and prices fell on the black market because of that.

Things start to be as a "gold mine" as it was right after the fall of the USSR.

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/12/06/w … to-africa/

https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc15136.doc.htm

As a foot soldier, we were really doing heavy exercise 70%-80% of the time - carrying kit/weapons, running, jumping in and out of trucks, being cold, being hot, out all night on exercises. And we really did need calories. I reckon we used 4000 calories a day when on exercise, 2500 calories when not.
-@fluffy2560

I think that is the same everywhere.
During training/ excercises we used to eat homemade sausages without bread. Energy was in need but when you know a half hour later you may crawl under the the barbed wire a full stomach is a disadvantage.

There's a scene in movie where Rommel is complaining about the lack of fuel for his tanks during WW2 battles in North Africa. They capture some assets and find a birthday cake . And Rommel is shocked that the Allies have access to fuel sufficient in such quantities that they can fly in birthday cakes, 1000s of miles to a battlefield.
-@fluffy2560


That film is the "Battle of the Bulge" from 1965, the Ardennes Counteroffensive.

US and Allies have fantastic logistics. They know how to shift many things in large quantities to the most unlikely places. Even KFC.
-@fluffy2560


Sure. Problem starts when that cannot be done.
As the guy said too: modern armies are mostly spoiled: good logistics, good medevac, nice reserves, fine MRE, full digital support.
I remember even in early stages of Iraq there was some study about how dangerous can be the "digital soldier" program in the long run, and US Army must embrace some "ranger type" training and not rely always on techology/ all provided conditions.
As it seems such approach is dismissed mostly - I gues was not a good business money wise for certain interest groups.
-@sjbabilon5

I was given lunch in the form of some sort of chile con carne which must have seen better days - served out of a kind of large thermos container - like a militarised version. Within about 1 min of eating it, I was completely incapacited with food poisoning. I'll spare you the details. Never mind the enemy trying to kill us, the chefs were working on it too.

Yes, it was indeed The Battle of the Bulge and not Rommel and not North Africa. Misremembered which one it was. A fine film with many superb actors. Click here for the cake scene. I have a different Battle of the Bulge right now. I made some raisin scones.

NATO has the heavy lift capability in Papa Air Base so lots of nice Globemasters flying about down there. People complain about the aeroplanes but personally. I like them. Think of all the emergency KFC, Subway, Burger King, Starbucks, McDs yada-yada being delivered to airbases the world over.

I never heard logistics, medical care, materiel and what have you been described as TOO good. They can shift things when they need to - I mean ammo, food and what have you.  In the UK many injured soldiers hurt in conflict survived because logistics enabled very sophisticated medical care - airlifted back to the UK within hours. They used to die but now they don't.  And smaller mobile military can be more efficient in fighting, i.e not uselessly throwing away lives Russian style. What's not to like about super logistics? That's why the Russians cannot win in Ukraine. They may have 1000s of conscripts ready to die but they cannot supply them. Good!

Incidentally, Boris Johnson and former soldier, now MP, Tobias Ellwood had a bit of a spat. Boris was infamously wrong about what he said in a committee - click here (skip to 1:35).  Boris says large scale tank battles in Europe will never occur again, effort should be put into cyber warfare. Ellwood comes back well and says "you cannot hold ground with cyber". I think that clip will dog Boris forever. 

I never heard logistics, medical care, materiel and what have you been described as TOO good.

-@fluffy2560

Or we can argue about what "military grade" equipment means.

What I tried to express: reliance on anything/ expect anything other than alredy in your kit/ direct unit.

i.e not uselessly throwing away lives Russian style. What's not to like about super logistics? That's why the Russians cannot win in Ukraine. They may have 1000s of conscripts ready to die but they cannot supply them. Good!

-@fluffy2560I

In my opinion exactly their "modernised" attitude one of the reason of low efficiency.

They used to drop away en masse lives (like march a rifle division trought a minefield = cleared minefield) and as the joke says "Marched from Stalingrad till Berlin with half a bread and a litre vodka." -> but not any more.

They just as much fear from death, expect logistics, support, facilities as any modern regular army.

So as a consequence get beaten up by forces which not.

In Mariupol they needed to send in the militias from the D. Republic, the Chechens, and others because regulars have no chance agains fanatic paramilitaries.

In Bahmut again they must rely on militias and Wagner PMC.

ncidentally, Boris Johnson and former soldier, now MP, Tobias Ellwood had a bit of a spat. Boris was infamously wrong about what he said in a committee - click here (skip to 1:35). Boris says large scale tank battles in Europe will never occur again, effort should be put into cyber warfare. Ellwood comes back well and says "you cannot hold ground with cyber". I think that clip will dog Boris forever.
-@fluffy2560

And cannot hold ground with tanks...

Infantry must do that.

I never heard logistics, medical care, materiel and what have you been described as TOO good.
-@fluffy2560

Or we can argue about what "military grade" equipment means.
What I tried to express: reliance on anything/ expect anything other than alredy in your kit/ direct unit.

i.e not uselessly throwing away lives Russian style. What's not to like about super logistics? That's why the Russians cannot win in Ukraine. They may have 1000s of conscripts ready to die but they cannot supply them. Good!
-@fluffy2560I


In my opinion exactly their "modernised" attitude one of the reason of low efficiency.
They used to drop away en masse lives (like march a rifle division trought a minefield = cleared minefield) and as the joke says "Marched from Stalingrad till Berlin with half a bread and a litre vodka." -> but not any more.
They just as much fear from death, expect logistics, support, facilities as any modern regular army.
So as a consequence get beaten up by forces which not.
In Mariupol they needed to send in the militias from the D. Republic, the Chechens, and others because regulars have no chance agains fanatic paramilitaries.
In Bahmut again they must rely on militias and Wagner PMC.


ncidentally, Boris Johnson and former soldier, now MP, Tobias Ellwood had a bit of a spat. Boris was infamously wrong about what he said in a committee - click here (skip to 1:35). Boris says large scale tank battles in Europe will never occur again, effort should be put into cyber warfare. Ellwood comes back well and says "you cannot hold ground with cyber". I think that clip will dog Boris forever.
-@fluffy2560

And cannot hold ground with tanks...
Infantry must do that.
-@sjbabilon5

Bakhmut seems to be a turf war between Russian Army generals and the Wagner PMC's Yevgeny Prigozhin (Putin's chef). It's probably about who holds the upper hand with Putin and his ear. Of course, those sold the lies are in that meat grinder and are the victims of that power struggle with Ukrainians as collateral damage. We see lots reports of shuffling of generals around.  Maybe Prigozhin is positioning himself to be the next dictator post-Putin.

Analysis I've read says it makes no sense to throw at Bakhmut so much materiel and men to gain not very much. Possibly it's just to have a victory to shout about on the anniversary of the invasion and Defender of the Fatherland Day (23 Feb). It's a key date. Putin can say, look what we've done! Look at our success!  It is of course nonsense. There's a weird environment in Russia it seems.  I expect Ukraine is building up to give Putin a bloody nose on the same date.

Yes, indeed infantry is needed to hold ground. Tanks get you there, infantry actually holds it.

I heard an ex-Air Force Air Marshal talking about training of experienced Ukrainian pilots from Russian SU-27 to US F-16s. The average training would take 6 months and could take as little as 6 weeks. That would be a game changer.  I did some research.

F-16s are generally said to be inferior in a dogfight to the SU-27, but there are many thousands of F-16s in service worldwide - over 4000. And Russia only has something like 700 SU-27s. US only stopped manufacturing the F-16s in upgraded form in the late 2000s. SU-27 is faster, more maneuverable, greater ceiling but it weighs 30 tonnes loaded and they may be in poor serviceable condition. F-16 weaponry is far superior despite the lower specification of the F-16 as an aircraft.

I expect the USA and Allies have been quietly preparing 100+ F-16s right now just in case the politics allows deployment to Ukraine. I reckon by June 2023, we'll be hearing about the first operational sorties. If that happens, the war will be over by the end of 2023 and Putin will have to explain himself to his people. Russian doctrine is escalation. If Putin tries to use nuclear weapons, Russia will be crushed. NATO is impossible to beat - huge budget, gadzillions of troops, masses of equipment. He's got no chance - victors will write the history. .

Bakhmut seems to be a turf war between Russian Army generals and the Wagner PMC's Yevgeny Prigozhin (Putin's chef). It's probably about who holds the upper hand with Putin and his ear. Of course, those sold the lies are in that meat grinder and are the victims of that power struggle with Ukrainians as collateral damage. We see lots reports of shuffling of generals around. Maybe Prigozhin is positioning himself to be the next dictator post-Putin.

Analysis I've read says it makes no sense to throw at Bakhmut so much materiel and men to gain not very much. Possibly it's just to have a victory to shout about on the anniversary of the invasion and Defender of the Fatherland Day (23 Feb). It's a key date. Putin can say, look what we've done! Look at our success! It is of course nonsense. There's a weird environment in Russia it seems. I expect Ukraine is building up to give Putin a bloody nose on the same date.

Yes, indeed infantry is needed to hold ground. Tanks get you there, infantry actually holds it.

I expect the USA and Allies have been quietly preparing 100+ F-16s right now just in case the politics allows deployment to Ukraine. I reckon by June 2023, we'll be hearing about the first operational sorties. If that happens, the war will be over by the end of 2023 and Putin will have to explain himself to his people. Russian doctrine is escalation. If Putin tries to use nuclear weapons, Russia will be crushed. NATO is impossible to beat - huge budget, gadzillions of troops, masses of equipment. He's got no chance - victors will write the history. .
-@fluffy2560

Power struggle is the default way of things in East Europe.

Outsiders often have the false impresson that autoriter leaders have some sort of dictator hight power.

Actually they have nothing like that.

Generals hardly command what Wagner does/ will do, or even a dozen Russian general cannot command a Cossack regiment: they both interested in what their direct commanders want/ order. Similarly Putin have only influence over what the Chechens will do - because they do what the local warlords and Kadyrov says.

Not long back there were the some outcry in the media when the Russians enacted the one sided casefire, oh how that was scam, they don't keep that, etc...

Actually Russian Army tried and when can did.

Wagner never said anything about casefire, Chechens never said such, militias and paramilitaries follow their own way, etc...

Same in Ukraine. Certain units may have under the command of the official UKR army in theory, but more often trhan not officers/ generals risk their head if dare to command them around if the organizations (like Azov) disagree. Like a minister and some officers may suffer some tragic helicopter accident or someone accidentaly falls out from a hotel window, etc...

Ah yes celebration days and names.

Actually I don't know the origin of the stupid sticking of military operations to certain dates: does not have much strategic or tactical sense.

About names: the defensive line unofficially called "Zelensky line" rhyme to other famous names, like Stalingrad and Leningrad and the tradition to make it a meat grinder.

Nukes:

I not remember who said (or how it sounds in English):

The one who first fire the nukes annihilated secondly.

Actually I have strong doubt that anyone can rule the planet after 30.000+ nukes detonated...

Or can claim victory. Or Earth remains habitable at all for humans in the following years...

Nukes:

I not remember who said (or how it sounds in English):

The one who first fire the nukes annihilated secondly.

Actually I have strong doubt that anyone can rule the planet after 30.000+ nukes detonated...
Or can claim victory. Or Earth remains habitable at all for humans in the following years...
-@sjbabilon5

You're thinking of MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction. It's a doctrine.  Whatever happens, if Putin was the survivor, he would face world insurgency forever. Not that he cares.

I'm sure the earth would recover after a nuclear war - they don't have 30K nukes anyway.  Only about 1200 a piece. It's enough to get back to the stone age.

Nature is very resilient.  I've seen this documented in the media - a time traveller would return to a planet ruled by talking Nazi apes, one of whom looks like Roddy McDowall.  And in the other ones, the human race are turned into batteries by Nazi somethings and in yet more, Nazi robots rule who look like Arnold Schwarzenegger.  OK, those were dystopian movies, I admit.

But this is the kind of fate being rammed into the average Russian's head by Putin. 

Power struggle is the default way of things in East Europe.
Outsiders often have the false impression that autocratic(?) leaders have some sort of dictator hight power.
Actually they have nothing like that.
Generals hardly command what Wagner does/ will do, or even a dozen Russian general cannot command a Cossack regiment: they both interested in what their direct commanders want/ order. Similarly Putin have only influence over what the Chechens will do - because they do what the local warlords and Kadyrov says.

Not long back there were the some outcry in the media when the Russians enacted the one sided casefire, oh how that was scam, they don't keep that, etc...
Actually Russian Army tried and when can did.
Wagner never said anything about casefire, Chechens never said such, militias and paramilitaries follow their own way, etc...

Same in Ukraine. Certain units may have under the command of the official UKR army in theory, but more often trhan not officers/ generals risk their head if dare to command them around if the organizations (like Azov) disagree. Like a minister and some officers may suffer some tragic helicopter accident or someone accidentaly falls out from a hotel window, etc...

I don't agree that dictators don't have ultimate power. They wouldn't be dictators if they didn't have total power.

Russia had some doctrine called "Our Work" based on a philosophy written many years ago by one of their thinkers. It guides the political and civil service class in their daily grind.  It's essentially another way of saying "stay in your lane" and don't deviate and certainly don't try and innovate or operate independently. It goes right to the commanders on the ground - keep referring up to the chain. That's one of the reasons they are not as adaptable on the battlefield. That's unlike the Ukrainians who have been trained since 2014 in Western thinking.

It's also another reason why Peskov and Lavrov spout nonsense to the the media. They believe nothing probably they are saying but it's their job to say what they are told to say. So they just say it, forget about it and go home get the vodka out.  And they have a clear conscience they did their job at that immediate moment.

Very different to Western thinking.

I would like to read a translation of "Our Work" but I've never found it Googling. There are papers referring to it but never find the actual text.

Hopefully there will be no nuclear exchange. Even a tactical nuke is of very little value on the battlefield, and it would mean not only the destruction of Ukrainian territory, it would also mean Russia could never take that area either. Not to mention it would be -- since Russia considers those lands its own -- a nuke used on its own soil.

What is the strategy for Ukraine now? How is it that we've gotten to a place reminiscent of WW1's trench warfare of large losses for minimal gains?

The heavy tanks given by Germany, Poland, the UK will certainly be used defensively. They are simply not in enough numbers to make a strategic and effective push. The light tanks given by France I think, paired with the Bradley fighting vehicles from the US, however, could be utilized in a land campaign similar to the retaking of Kharkiv, where speed and firepower overwhelmed the Russians. Coupled with an effective artillery system, and the Americans have released better munitions here, it could well signal an ability to strike at critical Russian logistics. Imagine a barrage of artillery from beyond Russia's ability to counterfire, then a blitzkrieg of that light armor tearing through and encircling Russian lines and batteries.

However, this is still playing at the edges, and will incur significant losses, without air support, and we see Zelenskyy really pushing for that now. Not the defensive ability to knock Russian air power out of the sky, but the ability to project force from above.

Personally, I really hope the Ukrainians get the supplies they need. This was Russia's voluntary war. Putin has erased decades of advancement for his country and crippled it for decades to come. In switching energy sources to multiple Arabian countries, this war has strengthened the Middle East where Western Countries must now turn a blind eye to any abuses there, as well as set back environmental progress against climate change.

This entire situation, completely avoidable except for one man's ego, is having devastating consequences for literally billions of people and re-writing geopolitics.

It's also another reason why Peskov and Lavrov spout nonsense to the the media. They believe nothing probably they are saying but it's their job to say what they are told to say. So they just say it, forget about it and go home get the vodka out. And they have a clear conscience they did their job at that immediate moment.

-@fluffy2560

Honestly, not unlike much of the UK and US media (Rupert Murdoc). Even while Fox News in the US were spouting anti-vaccine theories and talk about governmental overreach with vaccine mandates, the network required all of its staff to be vaccinated. Hypocrisy at its finest. Many more examples...

This is interesting.... I, like you @fluffy, could not find much on the Russian doctrine of "Our Work", perhaps because it is not widely known and because these are really quite common words. As Google's algorithm generally looks for linked articles and sites, maybe there just isn't enough of an online presence.

However, using ChatGPT, it gave the following answer:

"Our Work" is a term often used to refer to the political and economic policy of the Russian government under President Vladimir Putin. It is characterized by a focus on strengthening the state and restoring Russia's position as a major global power. The key elements of "Our Work" include a stronger central government, increased state control over strategic industries, a more assertive foreign policy, and efforts to rebuild Russia's military.

The policy is aimed at increasing the stability and prosperity of the country, and it is seen as a response to the tumultuous period of political and economic change that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. Under "Our Work," the government has sought to create a more centralized and efficient state, with a stronger role for the state in the economy and a greater emphasis on state-led development. This has included increased state control over key industries, such as energy and natural resources, as well as efforts to modernize the military and assert Russian influence abroad.

Critics of "Our Work" argue that it undermines democratic institutions and limits freedom of speech, association, and the press, while supporters see it as necessary for restoring stability and national pride. Nevertheless, it is a central aspect of Russian political and economic discourse and has had a significant impact on the country's development in recent years.

This is interesting.... I, like you @fluffy, could not find much on the Russian doctrine of "Our Work", perhaps because it is not widely known and because these are really quite common words. As Google's algorithm generally looks for linked articles and sites, maybe there just isn't enough of an online presence.
However, using ChatGPT, it gave the following answer:

"Our Work" is a term often used to refer to the political and economic policy of the Russian government under President Vladimir Putin. It is characterized by a focus on strengthening the state and restoring Russia's position as a major global power. The key elements of "Our Work" include a stronger central government, increased state control over strategic industries, a more assertive foreign policy, and efforts to rebuild Russia's military.

The policy is aimed at increasing the stability and prosperity of the country, and it is seen as a response to the tumultuous period of political and economic change that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. Under "Our Work," the government has sought to create a more centralized and efficient state, with a stronger role for the state in the economy and a greater emphasis on state-led development. This has included increased state control over key industries, such as energy and natural resources, as well as efforts to modernize the military and assert Russian influence abroad.

Critics of "Our Work" argue that it undermines democratic institutions and limits freedom of speech, association, and the press, while supporters see it as necessary for restoring stability and national pride. Nevertheless, it is a central aspect of Russian political and economic discourse and has had a significant impact on the country's development in recent years.
-@Vicces1

Mein Gott, ChatGPT  strikes again! This is why Google is in some disarray. I must get into ChatGPT. Can I ask what question you asked? Does it know the authors of "Our Work"? Or perhaps it can say how it evolved.

Putin will have read this during  his KGB training.

My question was: Can you tell me about the Russian doctrine of "Our Work"?

The website is: https://chat.openai.com/chat

I've only started to ask it some questions, fooling around with it, this past week. We'll see how it evolves and becomes more interactive. It won't replace Google searches, as it is a different tool, for different uses. Google is working on "Bard", its own AI Tool.  I am all for the use of AI in information searches, but I still want to know the underlying support, the sources, the reliability, and accuracy, etc.  It's getting there though!

My question was: Can you tell me about the Russian doctrine of "Our Work"?
The website is: https://chat.openai.com/chat

I've only started to ask it some questions, fooling around with it, this past week. We'll see how it evolves and becomes more interactive. It won't replace Google searches, as it is a different tool, for different uses. Google is working on "Bard", its own AI Tool. I am all for the use of AI in information searches, but I still want to know the underlying support, the sources, the reliability, and accuracy, etc. It's getting there though!
-@Vicces1

Yes, I've been following Bard and it's influence on the Google stock price.

I'm becoming more convinced about ChatGPT. One of my colleagues is putting in lots of effort to understand how to work with it. He's got some of his contacts to ask it in different languages and apparently it works well. I can see this overtaking the (Larry) Page Ranking mechanism in Google. There must be more subtlety in ChatGPT about results than the blunderbuss of Google.

I also want to know where it's getting its sources from. As we know, lots of people post links in here. when discussing topics. I always ask them to quote their sources so we can see how reliable it is. I am sure ChatGPT will be able to do that somewhat if asked.

I'm going to check it out this week and of course, see if I can find more "Our Work" details - authors, background reading, origins etc.

You're thinking of MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction. It's a doctrine. Whatever happens, if Putin was the survivor, he would face world insurgency forever. Not that he cares.

I'm sure the earth would recover after a nuclear war - they don't have 30K nukes anyway. Only about 1200 a piece. It's enough to get back to the stone age.

-@fluffy2560

There are quite many nukes.

"5,977 nuclear warheads as of 2022"

That is just Russia and they talk about warheads NOT nukes.

For example they have many warheads which is actually 10 nukes per warhead - sure a tactical nuke is less effective in a certain place when that is low yield one but then more targets vs use them to destroy one target with 10X str (and about 2-3X destruction power).

Planet survives, nature survives as it did all large disasters in the past cc. 5 billion years.

But would mankind survive? Not sure about that.

There needs just some thousand people to genetically survive aand avoid inbreeding with careful (enforced) selection, but to upkeep societies, technology, science, etc needs far-far more.

A nuclear apocalipse is not about the primary destruction, nor about the fallout.

But things like some hundreds of Chernobil 2 when no staff to maintain power plants, planetary blackouts, collapsed supply chains, collapsed production, etc...

I don't agree that dictators don't have ultimate power. They wouldn't be dictators if they didn't have total power.


-@fluffy2560

Well as I said hard to understand for outsiders.

A few years back there was an interview with Bandar bin Sultan (before he did fallen out from grace in a royal power strougle).

He tried to explain things for outsiders:

The reported asked him about claims of limited freedom, lack of democracy, power of the monarchy, etc... and his reply was so true:

You think about in different ways.

In a western democracy if a government seriously mess up and lose support lose an election.

In a monarchy if the king or the royal family  seriously mess up and lose the support of their subjects they more likely lose their heads.

Things are very similar in East Europe.

Be sure Putin was far more affraid from some Russian mothers when they (a few hundren) did a march with umbrelass and demanded/ enforced him to enact reforms and prevent the unneccesary practice of "break in bulliing" for their conscript sons (and avoid their deaths) than he was affraid from anything what outside powers are able to do.

Also be sure Orban is far more affraid of to end up on a street lamp by radicals if ever seriously messes up than affraid from anything what the EU capable to do.

The very reason why the not-so-much background powers demanded to be a war in Ukraine because they know very well: the combat ready population must be massacred, must sent in a brother war to the meat grinder - bloodbath to be eliminated.

Why?

Because nor Blackrock, nor Soros, nor EU, nor anyone else capable to fully colonise and exploit a country or  nation which have an immune system. Where radicals and patriots exist who can say: if you do this you lose your head.

They need slaves and consumers who lack of resistance.

This is the reson why they do enforced recruitments for "volunteers" and send them to the frontlines while the liberal - protected ones do lavish parties in Kiev and Lemberg. The future managers, influencers, HR, and caffe latte with soy milk folks who will be happy to assist the colonization and serve foreign interest for some benefits.

Because if combat ready - resistance ready folks would remain alive/ able there would be no kneeling for imagined sins - but kicking, no meetoo - but cut 'en half with a rusty saw for their false accusations, nor easy way for progressive - wokeis and alike.

You're thinking of MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction. It's a doctrine. Whatever happens, if Putin was the survivor, he would face world insurgency forever. Not that he cares.

I'm sure the earth would recover after a nuclear war - they don't have 30K nukes anyway. Only about 1200 a piece. It's enough to get back to the stone age.

-@fluffy2560

There are quite many nukes.

"5,977 nuclear warheads as of 2022"
That is just Russia and they talk about warheads NOT nukes.
For example they have many warheads which is actually 10 nukes per warhead - sure a tactical nuke is less effective in a certain place when that is low yield one but then more targets vs use them to destroy one target with 10X str (and about 2-3X destruction power).

Planet survives, nature survives as it did all large disasters in the past cc. 5 billion years.
But would mankind survive? Not sure about that.
There needs just some thousand people to genetically survive aand avoid inbreeding with careful (enforced) selection, but to upkeep societies, technology, science, etc needs far-far more.

A nuclear apocalipse is not about the primary destruction, nor about the fallout.
But things like some hundreds of Chernobil 2 when no staff to maintain power plants, planetary blackouts, collapsed supply chains, collapsed production, etc...
-@sjbabilon5

Yes, there are lots of nuclear missiles with many warheads for multiple targets. I used figures from Wikipedia.

Chernobyl has quite a lot of wildlife living in the exclusion zone. Nature adapts of course and as part of the animal world, humans would survive, somehow, even if they go underground and become Moorlocks. 

On the other hand, when the Russians went there digging up the red ground (this represents the radioactive pollution). They must have been so ignorant to dig there. And not told by their superiors, "don't dig there". Even the Ukrainians told them not to do that but because of the risks, left them to it as they would die. But they continued on and apparently 200+ have died of radiation poisoning after they realised the stupidity of it.  I did think maybe they'd come back as mutants. Has to be some upside.

As a matter of interest, here's an interview about cybrpartisans of Belarus - click here for YouTube.

Makes me think of the 1960's when the US had the Cuban missile  crisis.

Getting those drills in school where we had to huddle down under our desks and cover our heads with our hands...

Fear, always fear of death to control people.

Just this morning I mentioned to my husband that the US is telling it's citizens to get out of Russia ASAP.

Any dual citizens there may be called up to fight.

We both agreed we no longer wish our son to visit us here...He is of age to be called up if Hungary should join in the,"party".

My grandfather was forced to be in the Czars Army when he was a teenager,just before WW1.

He was a born American and only in Europe visiting on a holiday when he was wrangled in.

Insanity has no bounds.

On the other hand, when the Russians went there digging up the red ground (this represents the radioactive pollution). They must have been so ignorant to dig there. And not told by their superiors, "don't dig there". Even the Ukrainians told them not to do that but because of the risks, left them to it as they would die. But they continued on and apparently 200+ have died of radiation poisoning after they realised the stupidity of it. I did think maybe they'd come back as mutants. Has to be some upside.

As a matter of interest, here's an interview about cybrpartisans of Belarus - click here for YouTube.
-@fluffy2560

As word goes: Russians used maps from 1983 - 1984, which off course did not mention any fallout/ dangerous zones.

Yeah, groups like that are interesting - thanks.

Jet I wonder the group which fights for freedom how quickly would be a terrorist group if for example would done the same against any of the 5 eye alliance.

The age of double standards are funny.