Absolutely Anything Else

@cdw057

I am quite informed about taxes and I think Turkey is a horrible example with Erdogan's "illiberal democracy" economic strategy.

As you now see Erdogan who is unable to beg for money in Arabia is now shifting towards Western money and he is tempering his policies accordingly -- with allowing Sweden into NATO as an example.

If you lived in Hungary and are paid in forints, believe me, life is not good for you right now... one of the highest inflation rates in Europe and a constantly devalued currency... I am not sure how someone living in Turkey can fail to see the problem unless your money is safely in a European bank.

As I've said in this forum before, it's probably best HU is given an ultimatum - either OV/Fidesz or out of the EU. Plays into his hands of course, but they did it to themselves. See how they like them apples.
-@fluffy2560

Unfortunately I am sure that this is exactly how you believe the EU works. Very sad. I really get the feeling that time has come for you to leave Hungary to maintain your inner peace. OV and Fidesz are in power because many residents of Hungary believe that he is the the lesser of two or more evils.

Have you actually considered which is the most liberal and woke country accessible for you? It would be interesting to know.

@cdw057 What you mention I have heard from a few people living in Hungary. The current tax system in Hungary is pretty good and the government is doing a lot for larger families, which is why Hungary isn't in the top 10 of least reproductive countries anymore. So there are a few goodies that many people value higher than "living in the most liberal and LGBTQ+ friendly society" or even a democracy. I lived and worked in Tunisia, Dubai and Oman and nobody ever complained about a lack of democracy. Quality of life is what counts apparently.

Good one. I'd forgotten about that tussle between OV and Christmas, the parking and public transport fees.

BP apart from powering the economy, contains the intelligensia who are capable of questioning the OV BS and not voting for him. As opposed to the Videki who sell their souls and ethics for bags of Fidesz potatoes.

It's a pathetic example of a country pretending to be an EU democracy. I think it's difficult to see how HU can be rehabilitated within a generation.

As I've said in this forum before, it's probably best HU is given an ultimatum - either OV/Fidesz or out of the EU. Plays into his hands of course, but they did it to themselves. See how they like them apples.
-@fluffy2560

The losing parties  of elections (and their supporters) always come up with some reasons why the victory was stolen from them. The bag of potatoes was at least funny. You know, every party would have won the election if only ... (in your case bad potato harvest maybe).

-- with allowing Sweden into NATO as an example.

-@Vicces1

Which is not a done deal yet.

As I've said in this forum before, it's probably best HU is given an ultimatum - either OV/Fidesz or out of the EU. Plays into his hands of course, but they did it to themselves. See how they like them apples.
-@fluffy2560
Unfortunately I am sure that this is exactly how you believe the EU works. Very sad. I really get the feeling that time has come for you to leave Hungary to maintain your inner peace. OV and Fidesz are in power because many residents of Hungary believe that he is the the lesser of two or more evils.

Have you actually considered which is the most liberal and woke country accessible for you? It would be interesting to know.
-@nz7521137

Again, you show an ignorance of Hungarian politics here. Fidesz received LESS than a 50% share of the vote but maintains a supermajority in Parliament. Plus, as I mentioned before, although democratic, this is NOT a free and fair election with the international watchers stating that although democratic, this is not a fair election. Let me give just one example, Fidesz blanketed the airwaves, the radio, the TV, all media with its propaganda. The opposition was allowed just 5 minutes on a Wednesday morning on one TV show to present its agenda. You seem to be turning a blind eye to all the atrocities of the current regime to fortify your preconceived notions without understanding anything about the foundation of your beliefs.

@nz7521137

Are you stating that Turkey or Hungary would veto it? On what grounds would you consider that a good decision? I think you are just being argumentative here.

@nz7521137

A couple of troubling comments here.

1. The reproduction rate in Hungary is not even near the replacement rate and it is not particularly high in the context of Europe. It is below Bulgaria (1.59) and just above the UK (1.57) -- Obviously Hungary is at 1.58.  For reference, France is at 1,79.

From statistica, "Hungary’s population amounted to 9.7 million people as of January 2022, which was the lowest value recorded in the past three decades. Factors such as low fertility rate and emigration have contributed to the population decline."

Amazingly you state, "I lived and worked in Tunisia, Dubai and Oman and nobody ever complained about a lack of democracy. Quality of life is what counts apparently." I am dumbfounded. The Human Rights Organization noted for Dubai, "The report included 16 different methods of torture including severe beatings, threats with electrocution and denying access to medical care."  The American Embassy notes the following for Oman: "Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: arbitrary arrest or detention; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; serious restrictions on freedom of expression and media, including censorship and criminal libel and blasphemy laws; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the rights of peaceful assembly and freedom of association; serious restrictions on political participation; and labor exploitation of foreign migrants."

From Amnesty International, "Authorities continued to detain and prosecute people who expressed views critical of the government’s actions and decisions or religious beliefs deemed to be outside official Islamic practices. Migrant workers continued to face exploitation, forced labour and harsh working conditions. Women continued to face discrimination in law and practice, in the domestic and professional spheres. Some progress towards climate change policies was made."

It's like you think if you don't see it or feel it, nothing bad ever happens. And yet that is not the story for literally millions of people living in the countries you just cited.

Look, I am OK if you want to live in these societies. I just don't want those societies in Europe.  I want my female friends, my daughters to live without fear in an equal society. I want people able to protest peacefully without worry of being stoned to death, jailed, or hanged, or even thrown off buildings because some fictional being in the sky made you think you have more rights than someone else.  The European Union is more than a buffet where you pick the financials of the things you like and disregard the human and civil obligations.  I am absolutely sure you are reveling in your privileged position, but it seems you do not care at all about those less fortunate than yourself. And you fail to recognize the protections you have within Europe which are extremely ephemeral in the states you esteem.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/612 … countries/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/mid … port-oman/

@fluffy2560 Some very sad stories in Hungary (neighbours) forced to sell properties, of course women are victims in a way (but women tend to die later than men)

But sad to see what is happening (good marriage, husband dies and financial issues come (one main thing from me NO DEBTS))

Of course at the time women were victims in a way, but victims because they get old, some are wise and live what they have (even if small money).

We had accumulated a bit so we are fine, still it is good to have a budget.

In Hungary things were expensive over time and we sold our property.

There is some (more than some) inflation and even for us it is more expensive in Turkey.

Having said that EUR 3.000 is more than enough in Turkey (also I think more than good enough in Hungary)

Alcohol, cigarettes, restaurants, a comfortable life.

Saving is good and we did (me), question for the future should we really have pension and savings to become 100?

Me being a man, smoking, drinking, not sporting I think it is 75 max

For women I think it is different, could be easy 90/95.

Also not always a pleasure (I read an article that in the Netherlands not all can go to a caring home anymore (too many old people))

@nz7521137
Are you stating that Turkey or Hungary would veto it? On what grounds would you consider that a good decision? I think you are just being argumentative here.
-@Vicces1

I didn't say that it is a good or bad decision. Countries have their own reasons for doing whatever. The Turkish Parliament still has to agree (as far as I know). Just a formality? No idea.

@nz7521137
The reproduction rate in Hungary is not even near the replacement rate and it is not particularly high in the context of Europe. It is below Bulgaria (1.59) and just above the UK (1.57) -- Obviously Hungary is at 1.58. For reference, France is at 1,79.

From statistica, "Hungary’s population amounted to 9.7 million people as of January 2022, which was the lowest value recorded in the past three decades. Factors such as low fertility rate and emigration have contributed to the population decline."

Amazingly you state, "I lived and worked in Tunisia, Dubai and Oman and nobody ever complained about a lack of democracy. Quality of life is what counts apparently." I am dumbfounded. The Human Rights Organization noted for Dubai, "The report included 16 different methods of torture including severe beatings, threats with electrocution and denying access to medical care." The American Embassy notes the following for Oman: "Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: arbitrary arrest or detention; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; serious restrictions on freedom of expression and media, including censorship and criminal libel and blasphemy laws; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the rights of peaceful assembly and freedom of association; serious restrictions on political participation; and labor exploitation of foreign migrants."

From Amnesty International, "Authorities continued to detain and prosecute people who expressed views critical of the government’s actions and decisions or religious beliefs deemed to be outside official Islamic practices. Migrant workers continued to face exploitation, forced labour and harsh working conditions. Women continued to face discrimination in law and practice, in the domestic and professional spheres. Some progress towards climate change policies was made."

It's like you think if you don't see it or feel it, nothing bad ever happens. And yet that is not the story for literally millions of people living in the countries you just cited.

-@Vicces1

Please reread. I just said that Hungary made progress with the reproduction rates and some of their policies might have worked even without mass immigration. Europe is not even near the replacement rate. Maybe it is time to for each country to as why that is and - if wanted - how it can be changed.

We liked life in Tunisia, Dubai and Oman and I am aware that we were very to somewhat privileged. I still have friends and colleagues living in UAE and Oman and even for construction workers it is a very desirable destination. Especially the UAE and Oman are very safe places and offer fantastic opportunities for women (over half of the top management team of my employer was female). All the human rights issues you mention are not unique thinking of death penalty, torture, extrajudicial killings, arbitrary arrest or detention. That happens in the US or the UK (and other nations) as well. The exploitation of migrants happens all over Europe (farming and meat processing industry). The collective West is great at pointing fingers, but is not free of guilt. I still remember a time when Libya was highly developed country in Africa and a great place to live and work. That drastically changed ...

We had accumulated a bit so we are fine, still it is good to have a budget.
In Hungary things were expensive over time and we sold our property.
There is some (more than some) inflation and even for us it is more expensive in Turkey.
Having said that EUR 3.000 is more than enough in Turkey (also I think more than good enough in Hungary)
Alcohol, cigarettes, restaurants, a comfortable life.

-@cdw057

Spending 36000 EUR a year as a couple sounds like quite a lot for Hungary or Turkey. It would really be a lot for Portugal, if you own your home. Thanks for sharing this information. I always thought that Turkey was a bargain. Maybe you should quit smoking. I did when I was in my late 30s on a day I already smoked 2 packs. Never touched them since then. Great decision.

@fluffy2560 Some very sad stories in Hungary (neighbours) forced to sell properties, of course women are victims in a way (but women tend to die later than men)
But sad to see what is happening (good marriage, husband dies and financial issues come (one main thing from me NO DEBTS))
Of course at the time women were victims in a way, but victims because they get old, some are wise and live what they have (even if small money).
We had accumulated a bit so we are fine, still it is good to have a budget.
In Hungary things were expensive over time and we sold our property.
There is some (more than some) inflation and even for us it is more expensive in Turkey.
Having said that EUR 3.000 is more than enough in Turkey (also I think more than good enough in Hungary)
Alcohol, cigarettes, restaurants, a comfortable life.

Saving is good and we did (me), question for the future should we really have pension and savings to become 100?
Me being a man, smoking, drinking, not sporting I think it is 75 max
For women I think it is different, could be easy 90/95.
Also not always a pleasure (I read an article that in the Netherlands not all can go to a caring home anymore (too many old people))
-@cdw057

Life expectancy is going up of course. But why tempt fate? Reduce your odds of dying young by stopping smoking,, lay off any drinking, eat better and exercise?  I think the EU average is 77 years right now. You can beat the odds. 80 is the new 60 etc.

My Dad is 99 and on his last legs - he suddenly has severe heart failure. He's been moved to a care home from hospital as a kind of terminal care but the cost on him (and us) is brutal. It's like a worn out country hotel. But 3 meals a day, own room, 24x7 care and nurses and docs on call. Luckily he saved a bit and his savings might see him through to the very end. I don't think it was his plan to end up like that. It's fallen to us, his kids, to organise his final days. Shame for him. 4 months ago he was really rather well, highly engaged on politics (he's a rather strong socialist), the news and wot not . No drinking and no smoking (except in the war, gave  up in the 60s). He was also walking around and driving his electric scooter. He only gave up his car 6 months ago. He's a shadow of his former self.

My MIL on the other hand is still walking about but hasn't got much of a clue what is going on. She doesn't know who is dead and who is alive. And she's becoming a danger to herself falling over in the garden and getting lost (even in the garden).  She'll have to go into a home sometime. Here, it will be like a dormitory arrangement with 4 to a room. Pension might just cover it.

@fluffy2560 Some very sad stories in Hungary (neighbours) forced to sell properties, of course women are victims in a way (but women tend to die later than men)
But sad to see what is happening (good marriage, husband dies and financial issues come (one main thing from me NO DEBTS))
Of course at the time women were victims in a way, but victims because they get old, some are wise and live what they have (even if small money).
We had accumulated a bit so we are fine, still it is good to have a budget.
In Hungary things were expensive over time and we sold our property.
There is some (more than some) inflation and even for us it is more expensive in Turkey.
Having said that EUR 3.000 is more than enough in Turkey (also I think more than good enough in Hungary)
Alcohol, cigarettes, restaurants, a comfortable life.

Saving is good and we did (me), question for the future should we really have pension and savings to become 100?
Me being a man, smoking, drinking, not sporting I think it is 75 max
For women I think it is different, could be easy 90/95.
Also not always a pleasure (I read an article that in the Netherlands not all can go to a caring home anymore (too many old people))
-@cdw057

I know from experience that no one can know how many days they have in their life.

My God, no one has a crystal ball that is that accurate.

I've knew people in good health overall who passed in their 20's.

Accidents or suicide, mostly.

I don't see older women as victims, people make their own desisions unless you're under some sort of prison state under a heavy hand of control.

I don't see older men as victims either. It is what it is until it's over with.

People can see themselves as victims or do something about it.

In reality, how many people do we know who ever lived to be 100?

Not many.

Many people see their self worth as how large their bank account is.

I don't live that way, money or no money one can't take a thing with them when they check out.

As I've said in this forum before, it's probably best HU is given an ultimatum - either OV/Fidesz or out of the EU. Plays into his hands of course, but they did it to themselves. See how they like them apples.
-@fluffy2560
Unfortunately I am sure that this is exactly how you believe the EU works. Very sad. I really get the feeling that time has come for you to leave Hungary to maintain your inner peace. OV and Fidesz are in power because many residents of Hungary believe that he is the the lesser of two or more evils.

Have you actually considered which is the most liberal and woke country accessible for you? It would be interesting to know.
-@nz7521137

I know how it works and it's currently wishful thinking.   The EU founders never thought about an errant member but they may - through majority voting - decide to have a procedure to remove a member. It's just a matter of will.   They might flagellate themselves over it for some years but at the end of the day, they have to have a legal mechanism to control these kinds of people.   

Fidesz/OV are only in power because they now control the media.  It's no longer  a working democracy.  The EU is simply something to milk for cash to spread around his mates - see the Sargentini report of 2018. Arguably it's worse now.

This past weekend, it was HU Pride in Budapest and I was reading the news report interview with the organiser.   Apart from the continuous demonisation of enemies here and there, most recently LGBT folk (OV takes his cues from Russia, now doing worse things for LGBT people).  Anyway, the last point was that younger people do not agree with what OV/Fidesz are doing and that's a hope for the future but I find that sad because it will take years and may be impossible to reverse.  If find it hard to believe a democracy could even try and draft a law that has a clause allowing citizens to report their neighbours "unconventional family" arrangements.   Luckily the FIdsesz shill in the form of the President (Novak) appears to have had an attack of ethics and vetoed it.  But how could they ever think that was a reasonable thing to have in legislation?

I'm currently thinking the current kleptocracy parallels the asset grabs of the former Communist bureaucrats creating the oligarchs we see now.  We seem to be going through a new version of that,  post-Communism.  The oligarchs are passing down their wealth nefariously acquired and consolidating their dynasties.  But it's a bit like Trump.  Being in power is the only way to avoid jail time.    Of course Trump's offspring are all now discredited and have no chance of being involved in politics again.

I don't engage with debates on what is woke. That term is loaded.  I prefer to see the details in the word soup - pluralist, democratic,  tolerant, diverse and engaged.  As for moving out of here, it wasn't like this 20 years ago.  It's got more extreme, more outrageous and more combative. It's all down to OV/Fidesz and his acolytes.   

I saw something about a Pride event in Budapest.

I had no idea that they actually considered making it legislation to report your neighbors for an ,"unconventional family".

Wow, going down memory trail where in communist days it was illegal to be gay.

If you got out of the closet and found out you were either a criminal or insane, you pick where you want to spend your days.

Pure hate really, people will start reporting every neighbor for a minor thing just because they don't like them.

It almost seems to me like the start of a point system.

If you don't exactly fit in the mold for one reason or the other they will withold rights to you.

Sci-fi days ahead.

@Marilyn Tassy

Actually opposed with the official tilk-talk the Hun government (as well some city councils/ lord mayors on their own accord) does en masse "temporary worker" invasion for years.

There are a few thousand company which especially employ/ prefer them.

The less widespread explanation:

Keep the Hungarian wages low to preserve labor market competitiveness (aka: low wages/ cost, variety in skills/ abilities, hight enought unepmloyment/ uncertainty to keep the population in check, similars).

Dont forget: they/ their buddies are oligarchs and hardcore capitalists.

They do what is profitable/ beneficial for them, and any fake nationalist propaganda just a glaze to mask reality.

Unless i'm living in a parallel universe, the politicians here and everywhere else make the laws which have direct impact on (a) sector(s) of the population whether that's LGBT+ or refugees.

-@fluffy2560

That is exactly this:

or became some "rule of law" / "rights of X" dictatorship, like Canada.

-@sjbabilon5

Not so long ago there was something which called traditional/ common law: what people did agree on the right thing to do: was the law.

Nowdays in the so called modern countries they replaced it with "rule of law" aka: politicians and their patrons/ masters decide what should be the law and try to enforce it over the population regardless it agrees or not. 

But try to enforce it can be a dangerous gamble: the smarter ones closely monitor what the population really think about from issues, especialy in case of countries/ nations which have a history of resistance, coups, civil wars, and revolts/ revolutions against occupiers.

Indeed. They should take France and Germany as examples where migration has solved most problems.
-@nz7521137

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qoy4PSAG7Es

They did seek it for themselves - must eat what they cook.

I saw something about a Pride event in Budapest.
I had no idea that they actually considered making it legislation to report your neighbors for an ,"unconventional family".
Wow, going down memory trail where in communist days it was illegal to be gay.
If you got out of the closet and found out you were either a criminal or insane, you pick where you want to spend your days.
Pure hate really, people will start reporting every neighbor for a minor thing just because they don't like them.
It almost seems to me like the start of a point system.
If you don't exactly fit in the mold for one reason or the other they will withold rights to you.
Sci-fi days ahead.
-@Marilyn Tassy

Yes, it was in April 2023 that the law was vetoed by the (HU) President.  It's an unusual disagreement.

You can read about it here.

There was a whistleblower law and someone tacked on this reporting on families which do not adhere to OV's weird model of life in 2023.

Of course, as you say, it's a short step to ask people to report on people who may not be compliant with OV's disciples idea of family values or anything else.

Now, where have seen this kind of thinking before?  Hmmm....yes, you know.

It's kind of strange that OV purports to be protecting Christian values. If you look at the majority of the EU countries, they do not have these kinds of problems yet they survive and thrive. And they are still in the majority "Christian countries". What makes Hungary so different, it feels it needs to take away the rights of some people to achieve some unachievable aim?

I am speechless that these people think this is at all reasonable.

Many EU countries are in the process of kicking out migrants from Africa and the Middle East to make room for white Christian people from the Ukraine.
-@nz7521137

Actually I do see a difference when in a neighbor country there is in an armed conflict and we are the first safest country for real refugeees

OR

Some country in the Sahel have a drought and a large number of people decides to cross a few dozen countries and a few thousand km to end up somewhere (in a different continent) where they expect some form of social security and employment opportunities.

Anyway also beneficial when migration happens from places where culture, way of life, way of thinking, etc.. more similar/ more close.

I don't engage with debates on what is woke. That term is loaded. I prefer to see the details in the word soup - pluralist, democratic, tolerant, diverse and engaged. As for moving out of here, it wasn't like this 20 years ago. It's got more extreme, more outrageous and more combative. It's all down to OV/Fidesz and his acolytes. 
-@fluffy2560

Well, it all sound like it is time to start packing up.

It is good to know that Hungary is still a country where you can say/write what you want without being picked up and put to jail. You must concede that. I agree that it's got more extreme, more outrageous and more combative, but it got this way from both sides. It is never "all down to xyz", unless one is very simple minded.

The LGBTQ+ movement is actually the most intolerant bunch of al of them. My LGB friends/acquaintances (who care caught in this) try to distance themselves from those TQ+ as much as possible. In many aspects these people are as radical as the Tabilan.

Well, it all sound like it is time to start packing up.

It is good to know that Hungary is still a country where you can say/write what you want without being picked up and put to jail. You must concede that. I agree that it's got more extreme, more outrageous and more combative, but it got this way from both sides. It is never "all down to xyz", unless one is very simple minded.

The LGBTQ+ movement is actually the most intolerant bunch of al of them. My LGB friends/acquaintances (who care caught in this) try to distance themselves from those TQ+ as much as possible. In many aspects these people are as radical as the Tabilan.
-@nz7521137

It's  not like that.  We actually practice self-censorship now.  It's been like that for a while.  We do think carefully what we say when we're in forums where there less anonymity. And we don't share opinions with some people we know as we think they are dangerously brainwashed. It's caused some minor ructions between wider family members. We think they could be part of Stalin's politburo in their thinking of what is right and wrong.

Unless something happens to break this ludicrous situation, it's only a matter of time before things move further in the wrong direction.  Let's all stick stars on people for whatever they believe in or whatever life style they have.

Worst thing is the kids get this sort of thing at school. Jesus is staring down on the kids all the time.   For agnostics/atheists like us, it's not good.

It's like they're hiring teachers who really shouldn't be anywhere near school kids or are utterly unqualified despite being rubber stamped with a teaching qualification.  These people cannot even be fired if they are mates with school directors who are Fidesz appointees.

I don't agree with your distinction on the LGBTQ+ segment of the population.  Probably what you're referring to is the TERFs who represent a tiny fraction. And I certainly wouldn't make any comparisons with the Taliban.   That's uncalled for.

What you are missing is OV's MO has always been to remain in power at whatever cost, including EU membership. Anything and everything will be sacrificed to keep the OV/Fidesz cronies in power.  He intends to rule forever. He's said that directly in his speeches. Without the EU looking over his shoulder, he will be free to do whatever he wants. So long as he's the top dog here, he'll accept Putin as uber-top dog/Alpha.
-@fluffy2560

Always funny when folks talk about from different systems and cultures what they do not know in dept.

In any even from a distance autocratic system the leader/ leading elite needs to aware of the locals.

Yes the EU wants to depose the current government, generate a state default, help forces to organise orange revolution (as does other powers near the EU). Overall: beat this country a submissive, obidient colony. How dare it be anything else?

Like it was when their obidient servants ruled before 2010 as "good for western masters" proxy "government".

But leaders like OV not that much affraid from a 50.000 liberal pussies at a rally sponsored from abroad, but far more affraid when a 50 Betyar says: "You shall reconsider Mr. PM.".

As the Hungarian poem says:

"Though ships bob on the surface

And oceans run beneath us

It is the water rules."

(Not the best translation):

https://www.magyarulbabelben.net/works/ … s_revolted

As anno Bandar bin Sultan tried to explain westerners:

In a western democracy when the elite makes things wrong and anger their subjects they lose an election. In a monarchy if the royal family makes things wrong and anger their subjects they more likely lose their heads.

I see Turkey is not addressing the crazy economics and raising interest rates. It's hard to know what Erdogan was actually doing with his economic policies. He seems to have randomly changed his mind and decided to get technocrats in. Presumably he thinks he's got time now he's been re-elected.
-@fluffy2560

He has a logic.

Problem is: that (partially islamic banking) logic not neccesarily works in a more or less capitalist and globalist economy and monetary environment.

It with a great chance would able to work like in Iran, or in some otherwise less globally integrated muslim country but Turkey not in that position.

So right now U turn as modern monetary policy teaches.

Well, it all sound like it is time to start packing up.

It is good to know that Hungary is still a country where you can say/write what you want without being picked up and put to jail. You must concede that. I agree that it's got more extreme, more outrageous and more combative, but it got this way from both sides. It is never "all down to xyz", unless one is very simple minded.

The LGBTQ+ movement is actually the most intolerant bunch of al of them. My LGB friends/acquaintances (who care caught in this) try to distance themselves from those TQ+ as much as possible. In many aspects these people are as radical as the Tabilan.
-@nz7521137

It's not like that. We actually practice self-censorship now. It's been like that for a while. We do think carefully what we say when we're in forums where there less anonymity. And we don't share opinions with some people we know as we think they are dangerously brainwashed. It's caused some minor ructions between wider family members. We think they could be part of Stalin's politburo in their thinking of what is right and wrong.

Unless something happens to break this ludicrous situation, it's only a matter of time before things move further in the wrong direction. Let's all stick stars on people for whatever they believe in or whatever life style they have.

Worst thing is the kids get this sort of thing at school. Jesus is staring down on the kids all the time.  For agnostics/atheists like us, it's not good.

It's like they're hiring teachers who really shouldn't be anywhere near school kids or are utterly unqualified despite being rubber stamped with a teaching qualification. These people cannot even be fired if they are mates with school directors who are Fidesz appointees.

I don't agree with your distinction on the LGBTQ+ segment of the population. Probably what you're referring to is the TERFs who represent a tiny fraction. And I certainly wouldn't make any comparisons with the Taliban.  That's uncalled for.
-@fluffy2560

What you don't seem to consider is, that "the others" are thinking exactly the same way.

The LGBTQ+ community pressures books publishers to change historic works, they want to make it a crime to mis-gender a person, they are pushing children into sex change treatments. I absolutely disagree with all of that.

The majority of the Hungarians (and I would say the Portuguese) have very conservative views, but they are usually tolerant when it comes to how people live their (sex) lives. The latter as long as it isn't too much happening in public.

The Taliban destroyed historic monuments they didn't agree with. The LGBTQ+ religion suppresses/farces change to books that they believe inappropriate.

I see Turkey is not addressing the crazy economics and raising interest rates. It's hard to know what Erdogan was actually doing with his economic policies. He seems to have randomly changed his mind and decided to get technocrats in. Presumably he thinks he's got time now he's been re-elected.
-@fluffy2560

He has a logic.
Problem is: that (partially islamic banking) logic not neccesarily works in a more or less capitalist and globalist economy and monetary environment.
It with a great chance would able to work like in Iran, or in some otherwise less globally integrated muslim country but Turkey not in that position.

So right now U turn as modern monetary policy teaches.
-@sjbabilon5

Maybe Turkey should (or already does) consider the banking as it exists in the UAE. Banks like ENBD are offering lots of option that are suitable for a good Muslim.

What you are missing is OV's MO has always been to remain in power at whatever cost, including EU membership. Anything and everything will be sacrificed to keep the OV/Fidesz cronies in power. He intends to rule forever. He's said that directly in his speeches. Without the EU looking over his shoulder, he will be free to do whatever he wants. So long as he's the top dog here, he'll accept Putin as uber-top dog/Alpha.
-@fluffy2560

Always funny when folks talk about from different systems and cultures what they do not know in dept.

In any even from a distance autocratic system the leader/ leading elite needs to aware of the locals.
Yes the EU wants to depose the current government, generate a state default, help forces to organise orange revolution (as does other powers near the EU). Overall: beat this country a submissive, obidient colony. How dare it be anything else?
Like it was when their obidient servants ruled before 2010 as "good for western masters" proxy "government".

But leaders like OV not that much affraid from a 50.000 liberal pussies at a rally sponsored from abroad, but far more affraid when a 50 Betyar says: "You shall reconsider Mr. PM.".

As the Hungarian poem says:
"Though ships bob on the surface
And oceans run beneath us
It is the water rules."
(Not the best translation):
https://www.magyarulbabelben.net/works/ … s_revolted

As anno Bandar bin Sultan tried to explain westerners:
In a western democracy when the elite makes things wrong and anger their subjects they lose an election. In a monarchy if the royal family makes things wrong and anger their subjects they more likely lose their heads.
-@sjbabilon5

There should be no different system here from anywhere else in our region or the EU.

But yes, OV wants to be the new Tsar. No need to consult with anyone

The EU wants Hungary to be a democratic state participating as an equal. It's not doing that. So either follow the rules of the club agreed with peers or persuade enough other countries to agree to change to whatever system agrees with HU's digestion or stop the interference and tantrums and leave the group.  If Hungary doesn't want to be part of the club and its norms, then it should just go.

It's like that delusion Luskashenko had about merging Belarus with Russia (aka Union) and he could be president of it all. Yeah, right, like Putin was going let that happen?  Belarus is going towards ceasing to exist as an independent country. Hungary could join in with that club, slowly cease to exist and just become a province of Russia. OV can then rule forever.

As for the rest of the posts, best not to try and be too complex or wordy as it comes across incoherent.

He has a logic.
Problem is: that (partially islamic banking) logic not neccesarily works in a more or less capitalist and globalist economy and monetary environment.
It with a great chance would able to work like in Iran, or in some otherwise less globally integrated muslim country but Turkey not in that position.

So right now U turn as modern monetary policy teaches.
-@sjbabilon5

It made no sense whatsoever, Islamic or not.  He pushed a lot of people into poverty. If he wanted an Islamic system, he'd need to do a lot more than devaluing his currency.

I see Turkey is not addressing the crazy economics and raising interest rates. It's hard to know what Erdogan was actually doing with his economic policies. He seems to have randomly changed his mind and decided to get technocrats in. Presumably he thinks he's got time now he's been re-elected.
-@fluffy2560

He has a logic.
Problem is: that (partially islamic banking) logic not neccesarily works in a more or less capitalist and globalist economy and monetary environment.
It with a great chance would able to work like in Iran, or in some otherwise less globally integrated muslim country but Turkey not in that position.

So right now U turn as modern monetary policy teaches.
-@sjbabilon5
Maybe Turkey should (or already does) consider the banking as it exists in the UAE. Banks like ENBD are offering lots of option that are suitable for a good Muslim.
-@nz7521137

There's nothing to stop Turkey establishing an economy based on an Islamic banking system.  it already exists in many countries and for the religious types, they can engage on that if they want.   However, if they want to interact internationally, they'd have to do things more conventionally Western style.   Islamic banking will be a tiny percentage of the Turkish banking sector.

What you don't seem to consider is, that "the others" are thinking exactly the same way.
The LGBTQ+ community pressures books publishers to change historic works, they want to make it a crime to mis-gender a person, they are pushing children into sex change treatments. I absolutely disagree with all of that.

The majority of the Hungarians (and I would say the Portuguese) have very conservative views, but they are usually tolerant when it comes to how people live their (sex) lives. The latter as long as it isn't too much happening in public.

The Taliban destroyed historic monuments they didn't agree with. The LGBTQ+ religion suppresses/farces change to books that they believe inappropriate.
-@nz7521137

No idea what you mean by the "others" thinking. Who are the "others"?

No-one is pressuring children into gender based treatments - here or anywhere else.  That's a self-serving fantasy of OV and his Christian bigot followers. And there are already safeguards for any of those treatments. 

Instead of thinking of it as a social issue, they want to criminalise the LGBTQIA+ minority.  That's a big difference between tolerating the minority socially and actively trying to destroy them.

The books Libri was forced to cover up are original works. They aren't older works being re-written to make them more LGBT inclusive. There's no historical connections Taliban style. Non-sequitur.

If you're old enough, you'll remember the Soviets giving male sex hormone based treatments to female athletes so they could out compete in various categories.  It was never against the law to change gender in Russia until last week. No sure what they are trying to achieve there.

Even more interesting, Iran doesn't tolerate homosexuality but it does tolerate gender reassignment.   

There should be no different system here from anywhere else in our region or the EU.

-@fluffy2560

Sound pretty much like a dictatorship to me. It is US/UK-Think. Everywhere should be like they think is right. If not, regime change or ... they are friends like e.g. Saudi and then all is fine. Maybe Hungary will see a Soros and USAID supported colour revolution. I hope not, but ... who knows.

Europe is very diverse and I hope it will always be. If you cannot (or don't want to) live with that, maybe better go to a place that is more to your liking (but you are planning that already).

I bet most Hungarians are more worried about rising prices and deteriorating healthcare system than OV and Fidesz. Many Hungarians know the alternatives and don't want to have those either.

There should be no different system here from anywhere else in our region or the EU.

-@fluffy2560
Sound pretty much like a dictatorship to me. It is US/UK-Think. Everywhere should be like they think is right. If not, regime change or ... they are friends like e.g. Saudi and then all is fine. Maybe Hungary will see a Soros and USAID supported colour revolution. I hope not, but ... who knows.

Europe is very diverse and I hope it will always be. If you cannot (or don't want to) live with that, maybe better go to a place that is more to your liking (but you are planning that already).

I bet most Hungarians are more worried about rising prices and deteriorating healthcare system than OV and Fidesz. Many Hungarians know the alternatives and don't want to have those either.
-@nz7521137

Soros? Really? Again? We know people at the CEU and they've never seen him. In my mind, he's only done good things other than nuture OV. Who is he going to blame for the ills of Hungary when Soros is gone?  USAID, meh, I know them well.

We lived in the Netherlands for some years.  They are very tolerant and the kids would like it. But the weather is terrible. Unfortunately, it's no longer an easy option because of Brexit. 

I disagree with the UK-US relations with KSA if it makes any difference. UK is about to host MBS on an official visit. Not many people are really happy about that post-the murder of the journalist at the KSA embassy in Turkey.

For sure there are lots of things to worry about here like bad healthcare and prices but that's no excuse for being asleep at the wheel when some people are promoting a dictatorship. We all know what happens as that sort of thing incrementally moves forward.

I've spent far too long on here today. I have to do something else!

No idea what you mean by the "others" thinking. Who are the "others"?

-@fluffy2560

"The Others" are all those that have a different view of the world than you have. Maybe you could call them "The bad people", while you are one of "The good and righteous people".

No idea what you mean by the "others" thinking. Who are the "others"?

-@fluffy2560
"The Others" are all those that have a different view of the world than you have. Maybe you could call them "The bad people", while you are one of "The good and righteous people".
-@nz7521137

Nah, you're being too generalised which is not useful.   It's the specifics, detail and presentation that matter.

To quote the poet/singer/ icon whatever... Mick Jagger at Altamont:

"Brothers and Sister's, Sister's and Brother's, lets all cool out".

( he cracks me up sometimes)

No need to get mad at each other for seeing the world differently.

In the end, our opinions aren't going to change a thing.

The powers that be are going to do what they do no matter what.

It's a bit out of control already and there isn't going to be any stopping them until they reach their goals.

Their evil plans have been in the making for a,long time, generations back in fact.

( Thank you federal reserve)

All we can really do is observe and try to enjoy our own little lives as best as possible.

I was looking forward actually at age 15 of going to Altamont back in 1969 with my sister.

She changed her mind about going last min and in the end it was a wise decision.

I'm surprised looking back on it that our mother gave her OK for me to tag along.

I suppose she knew there would be no living with me if she said no.

I hardly pay much attention to those clowns in politics.

My husband told me today that Biden is head on determinded to end dual citizenship to Americans before he leaves office.

I suppose it is those venture capitalist who aren't paying taxes in the US and putting their money in banks all over the world that got him in a huff?

Once again, only the little people will draw the short stick if he gets his evil way.

To quote the poet/singer/ icon whatever... Mick Jagger at Altamont:
"Brothers and Sister's, Sister's and Brother's, lets all cool out".
( he cracks me up sometimes)
No need to get mad at each other for seeing the world differently.
In the end, our opinions aren't going to change a thing.
The powers that be are going to do what they do no matter what.
It's a bit out of control already and there isn't going to be any stopping them until they reach their goals.
Their evil plans have been in the making for a,long time, generations back in fact.
( Thank you federal reserve)
All we can really do is observe and try to enjoy our own little lives as best as possible.
I was looking forward actually at age 15 of going to Altamont back in 1969 with my sister.
She changed her mind about going last min and in the end it was a wise decision.
I'm surprised looking back on it that our mother gave her OK for me to tag along.
I suppose she knew there would be no living with me if she said no.
I hardly pay much attention to those clowns in politics.
My husband told me today that Biden is head on determinded to end dual citizenship to Americans before he leaves office.
I suppose it is those venture capitalist who aren't paying taxes in the US and putting their money in banks all over the world that got him in a huff?
Once again, only the little people will draw the short stick if he gets his evil way.
-@Marilyn Tassy

There's no way Biden is going to stop dual nationality. That's got to be fake news. He'd be annoying "his people" (supposedly) the Irish. Sounds more like a Trump thing. I don't see that guy asking for a British passport even though he could.  He could even enter UK politics if he wanted.  But he might be put off by people laughing.

One of our kids was disappointed to find there was no route to Spanish dual nationality. Not that it matters right now, the HU EU passport will get you closer to it.

I was looking at Mick Jagger the other day. What a really wizened old guy. He looks like he's been desiccated or partially mummified. I've been looking for a Mick Jagger garden gnome. Mick apparently is very much the brains behind the Stones. He's their manager and runs all their finances. I suppose he wouldn't license his image for a gnome. Mrs F is not impressed by my gnome plans.

A lot of people made comparisons between Mick and that guy (Kobor) in Omega. Kobor lost the plot as he got older. He refused vaccination apparently and died of COVID. We were in the same hospital getting vaccinated when he passed there. We could her his music playing ethereally somewhere in the corridors.

Yes, old Mick and Keith surprise me by still being alive.

Brain was the brains but they offed him.

Well, that's one theory.

Tom Keylock the Stones handler hired Frank Thorogood ( Any relation to George Thorogood?) to remodel Brian's  Cotchford farm estate.

Brain was kicked out of the Stones and they stopped paying his bills .

Frank and his crew were angry because Brian fired them and they wanted to keep living off of him.

Their work was shoody and they overcharged him. Took advantage of him.

No more free ride so they might of ganged up and murdered him out of rage.

Another theory which I hate to think about is Mick and Keith had him done in.

He was about to start a super group with Jimi Hendrix and he has rights to the name,"Rolling Stones" and they wanted to get rid of him fast.

They say he was drunk and drown and possibily had drugs in his system. His autopsy showed different.

No drugs to speak of, hardly any alcohol in his system and no chlorine in his lungs. They found fresh water in his lungs. Huge cover up. ne of the inspectors was close, forget if related to or just close to Thorogood. Nothing to see there!

He might of been held under water in a trough in his garden then dumped into the pool?

Other say he was found to have a tiny red mark on hhis neck as if he was given a shot?

I know they bleached his hair white and buried him 10 feet down.

The police investigation papers are not open to the public for 75 years!!

They want all the players dead first.

Yes, old Mick and Keith surprise me by still being alive.
Brain was the brains but they offed him.
Well, that's one theory.
Tom Keylock the Stones handler hired Frank Thorogood ( Any relation to George Thorogood?) to remodel Brian's Cotchford farm estate.
Brain was kicked out of the Stones and they stopped paying his bills .
Frank and his crew were angry because Brian fired them and they wanted to keep living off of him.
Their work was shoody and they overcharged him. Took advantage of him.
No more free ride so they might of ganged up and murdered him out of rage.
Another theory which I hate to think about is Mick and Keith had him done in.
He was about to start a super group with Jimi Hendrix and he has rights to the name,"Rolling Stones" and they wanted to get rid of him fast.
They say he was drunk and drown and possibily had drugs in his system. His autopsy showed different.
No drugs to speak of, hardly any alcohol in his system and no chlorine in his lungs. They found fresh water in his lungs. Huge cover up. ne of the inspectors was close, forget if related to or just close to Thorogood. Nothing to see there!
He might of been held under water in a trough in his garden then dumped into the pool?
Other say he was found to have a tiny red mark on hhis neck as if he was given a shot?
I know they bleached his hair white and buried him 10 feet down.
The police investigation papers are not open to the public for 75 years!!
They want all the players dead first.
-@Marilyn Tassy

That's an interesting take on Brian's demise in his pool. I never thought of the others as doing him in as he was so out of it, anything could have happened. I can perhaps clarify some points - was he was cloned and the original taken to Area 51 to be stored ready for QAnon to release him?  Same as Princess Diana, Einstein and all the Kennedys?

I suppose with any unusual death or disappearance there will always be questions. It's a bit like Jimmy Hoffa, who undoubtedly now sleeps with the fishes. We'll never know the truth of what happened to him. It's a bit of a shame that people who did him in don't feel obliged to make deathbed confessions so we can solve all these mysteries.

I really liked George Thorogood. I've got a few of his albums. I am sure with a name like that there cannot be many of them. I thought he was dead but I was getting confused with him and Stevie Ray Vaughn. Probably one of the greatest guitarists to have lived.

George was even invited to join the Stones as a replacement for Mick Taylor.

Man, I am a Stones fan after all, know allot of the dirt on them!

It would of been even to me a bit weird for an American to join the UK Stones.

Glad he didn't join them.

Saw George a couple of times, he even opened for the Stones once time when I saw them.

There is a new documentary on Netflix about the life of Brian Jones. His buddy the strange guy Prince Stash AKA Prince Stanislaus Klossowski gives his take on Brian. ( They were arrested together for drugs in the 60's)

I forgot to mention as I was rushed that on his death bed the jerk,Frank Thorogood confessed to Tom Keylock that he had murdered Brain Jones..

Tom Keylock burnt all or Brians clothing and personal items before the police arrived. They also didn't call the police after he drown for several hours.

Have to take that with a grain of salt, like who can believe any of these people.

It is strange however, the entire death seemed a bit demonic and just so off the wall.

I was about 14 when he passed away. I still remember hearing the news on the radio, so unreal and sad.

My sister( the groupie) told me then that the band had him done in.

No idea where she got her info but she always seemed to know things that no one else did.

I know Keith used to try so hard to outdo Brain in dress, was a copy-cat always trying to copy Brians fashion style.

After Brians was out of the picture Keith and Mick entered front and center stage.

They also sent Brian's Swedish GR out of the UK within hours of his passing. She was terrified to speak about what happened for decades.Still to this day she doesn't really say much.

Bob Dylan purchased Brians coffin, a lead one, they were great friends.

There are a few videos on his death on U tube, the mother of one of his children is was and still is active in finding out more about how he died. She was the mother of one of his many sons out of wedlock. I think he had 5 or 6 children before he ever started the Stones! A real rebel and lady;s man. One of his many lady loves married Donovan and he raised one of Brian's sons.

He was from an upper class family who threw him out because of his wild ways as a teenager.

IDK, but fans still wonder what happened, it is all so fishy.

He passed just 3 weeks after they threw him out of the band.

Too bad Pooh Bear can't speak, he was a witness.

Crotchford farms is where the author of the Pooh series lived.