Absolutely Anything Else

Just a note on tips or tokes as they are called in the "industry" in Vegas.
Toke as in token.
All tips are taxed. Even when doing hair they took a average of your daily production and a percentage was declared for US taxes.
Same with taxi drivers, think it was 10 or 15% of your daily meter readings were taxed by the US gov.
In Vegas, those Free drinks are not free for the server at all.
They pay a alcohol tax on each drink poured, that's why it is so rude not to tip the cocktail servers in Vegas.
They also share their tips with the barman.
As a games dealer we used to collect our tips the next day in cash but around the year 2000 they stopped that and now add it onto your bi weekly paycheck, taxes all declared.
That's one reason some old time dealers miss being run by the mob, they kept their own tips and didn't declare a penny. Even now the floormen get a salary and it was a big issue for awhile in Vegas with dealers making more money daily then their bosses were making, the tips were so good at some casinos.
The dealers drop tokes into a box and each night at the end of the shift they are counted by a selected few and records are kept.
They are declared income to the penny.
Not sure how it goes here in HU but in the US without tips many businesses would close their doors if they put a end to tipping and had to make up the difference in wages.
In know in the US those food delivery people use their own cars, have to pay for auto insurance at a higher rate because they use their car for work.
Some cab co. in Vegas make the drivers buy their own gas but their percentage of the meter is higher then co. that provide petrol for the drivers. It is all highly regulated, no one is making a killing by getting tips... Well maybe once in a blue moon , saw a cocktail waitress receive $100. tips often hear one lucky server got a $1,000 chip for one drink... no strings attached, I hope.
Even those strippers in Vegas must pay to work in the clubs that night and tip the security as well.
Tips in Vegas make the city run without tips there would be no Vegas.
Off soon to my ortho doctor here in HU. Going to have 2 envelopes one with a 5er and one with a 10er, will decide after the visit how much to "Tip" him. need to set up surgery today perhaps, see if how helpful he is or not. Last time was over a 2 hour wait with 3 mins of actual office time with him.
I wonder if the educated doctors declare their tips here or now, hmm, how many Balaton villas were paid from tips?

In my humble opinion (IMHO), and I am sticking to it  :

There are tips -- merit based payments that reflex the quality of the job done. And there are grease payments -- paying someone to do their job or to do their job in a timely manner.

Unfortunately, a lot in Hungary are grease payments not tips. That is, part of the so called "tip" controversy is one of simple semantics: calling grease payments tips. But grease payments, for better or worse, may still be an integral part of the local economics and do indeed function to make it move easier (ergo -- why they are called "grease"). That is, there are many types of economic activity that "just works".

Part of the "tip controversy" is also caused by companies who see service employees that receive tips as entitled to less than minimum wage salaries, assuming the "tips" will make up the difference. Resulting in these employees "expecting" a tip from the consumer as part of their salary. Thus tipping is no longer a merit based tip, but a part of a salary that the corporation has shifted in responsibility, subjectively, to the consumer. Understandably, some consumers don't quite see it that way. This really is a social issue caused and rooted in corporate behavior, but ends up with the "people" fighting with each rather than confront the root cause: corporations and their political minions. How silly is that?

However, there is a hard core "anti-tip" crowd as well. I usually find them to be arm-chair macroeconomics who think they understand the Chicago school of economic theory, but don't. They fight tips on any level and at any time. They are usually (but not always*) young, male, white collared, entitled salaried employees that complain about tips for lower rung service employees while pontificating their misunderstanding of economic theory. And, at the same time, either oblivious that the upper management of the company they work for most likely gets merit based tips in the form of bonuses and stock options, or using some form of cognitive dissonance thinks the upper management deserve tips, while the waitress does not. Go figure.....


* some people are just cheap penny pinchers with no social conscious. 

I guess I "greased" the wheels a tiny bit today at the doctors.
Was beyond shocked that there were only 2 people in front of me waiting and we were in and out in 40 mins tops.
Picked the 10,000F envelope just because I didn't have to wait for hours.
Getting a MRI, wondering a bit though why it took 4 visits with him and 2 months of run around at another surgical  office to finally get the wheels in motion.
I admit, it totally feels odd to tip the doctor, I am so  uneasy doing it, I just put it in his pocket and say some lamo thing. Today, when he said thank you, I said " Buy yourself some pizza"?! Why on earth did I even say that?
Uncomfortable for sure.
Many people who never worked for tips just do not understand .
In Vegas as a games dealer I worked with so many highly educated dealers their problem was all their schooling and work was done in another country and their degrees just didn't do it in the US.
A few US citizens also had higher education but dealing and tips was more profitable and less pressure then their degree jobs.
Many engineers were working as floor people, doctors dealing PIa Gow Poker.
I know I was hired in a min for just knowing some people who worked at the Sun Coast Casino, we all had worked together at another property, they moved there and I went to HU for 6 months. Just walked in to say hito my ex co-workers and the boss had me deal in my st. clothing and liked it. Every night we opened our envelopes with a min. of $265. plus our pay by the hour.
Some dealers made over $12. and hour for the years with the same co.
So all the tip jobs in the uS now require a min. wage.
When I was a teenager they got away with paying below min. wage if there were tips.
In the year 2000 my over $300 a day was a nice bonus for my family, 3 jobs with tips coming in for one house was great.
Too bad I got lasy and quit too soon.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Many people who never worked for tips just do not understand .

No. They don't.

My wife, years ago when working as a waitress in Geneva, waited tables for some Sheik and his entire multi-wife family and entourage. Expensive, expansive menus he ordered. Huge amount of work for her. Many hours. She is a sweetheart and always gives 100% + her heart + 50% more into her work. He gave her no tip. Zero. Zip. Nada. IMHO: What a jerk.

klsallee wrote:

However, there is a hard core "anti-tip" crowd as well. I usually find them to be arm-chair macroeconomics who think they understand the Chicago school of economic theory, but don't. They fight tips on any level and at any time. They are usually (but not always*) young, male, white collared, entitled salaried employees that complain about tips for lower rung service employees while pontificating their misunderstanding of economic theory. And, at the same time, either oblivious that the upper management of the company they work for most likely gets merit based tips in the form of bonuses and stock options, or using some form of cognitive dissonance thinks the upper management deserve tips, while the waitress does not. Go figure.....


* some people are just cheap penny pinchers with no social conscious. 

Interesting theorem how people justify black income for certain people, but such bribery for others is punishable with jail.

I am indeed white collar worker, I am a purchaser. I dont get neither commission nor tips. If I dont do my job well, I get fired. And I expect the same from people working in the service industry too.
However, my brother-in-law was a waiter, served in Michelin-start restaurants in Budapest, an on cruise lines on the Caribbean. And I believe him when he said that at none of the places the staff got the tip. The owners always pocketed it. So dont fool yourself by justifying you are paying for better service. You are paying an extra to the owner.

This magical self-entitlement that service people should get rewarded for better service is just disgusting. It is an insult to every other person who works. You dont tip call center workers, yet many people complain about their attitude. You dont tip postal workers, yet people complain about late letters. You dont tip bus/train/airplane drivers, yet people compain about late schedules. Maybe people should tip them too. At what point does this become ridiculous, and people realise that being nice for a waiter is in the job description, and not something extra?

By the way, waiters dont earn worse than nurses, yet people are outraged when nurses are grumpy. Go figure...and tipping nurses is considered "grease"... just wow. I thought both encourages better service, so why the distinction.

Rawlee wrote:

Interesting theorem how people justify black income for certain people, but such bribery for others is punishable with jail.

Tips are by law suppose to be reported as income. In fact, in "normal" tax societies, it is already assumed a person makes a certain income by tips and they are taxed automatically as such.

Just because the tax authority is behind the curve here is not my problem. It is the governments. Go complain to them.

Rawlee wrote:

However, my brother-in-law was a waiter, served in Michelin-start restaurants in Budapest, an on cruise lines on the Caribbean. And I believe him when he said that at none of the places the staff got the tip. The owners always pocketed it.

I also know people who worked for cruise ships. They mostly talked about how well they were tipped. In fact they worked on cruise ships simply because the tips were so good. And they were tipped in hand so nothing others could pocket. Maybe your brother just got scammed. Or was in the wrong position. Oh well. His problem. High seas is lawless. Picked the wrong company to do business with. Capitalism. Free markets. Right to work laws. Tough. Grow a back bone. Lawsuit. Formal complaint. Unionize. Just some suggestions how to deal with workplace realities.

Rawlee wrote:

This magical self-entitlement that service people should get rewarded for better service is just disgusting. It is an insult to every other person who works.

Oh please... learn basic economics 101. Better products and services can charge higher prices. Be that a company or an individual. I made a career offering better services than the competition and was able to charge, and was paid, more than the competition because of superior products and services. Made enough. Semi-retired at age 45. If you find that disgusting then maybe you are just jealous for being unable to do the same, your skills and service quality are sub standard on the open market to compete, or "safe" planed economies and socialism is simply more your cup of tea.

Been there myself a couple of times while working my booty off doing hair, usually someone who wanted the ,"full treatment" wash, perm, set, comb out then a nothing to very min tip. I could of done a half dozen normal haircuts in that time and made more in tips then working on some selfish old hag. That's the breaks in the big city I suppose...
I actually met a women here in Hu about a decade ago who's husband was a HUngarian from Canada . She was a Ca. gal like me and also a hairdresser.
Her FIL seemed super sweet, he had been super lucky to escape the Nazi's during WW11 as a 8 year old Jewish boy. By pure chance he had been visiting his aunt when he parents were taken to a camp. Something also happened to his aunt and he was alone in Budapest , aged 8 years old and rode out the war in the city on his own! Unreal so sad. He lived in burnt out building, collected flowers off of graves and resold them etc. Dang poor thing at only 8 years old.
He left HU in 1956 and went to Canada, when things changed here he came back and opened up a profitable real estate co.
He basically supported this one son and his family.He just wanted his family together here in HU and would do anything for them. He and his wife lived in a modest flat in the 13th and spent a small fortune paying the bills of his grown children. That's how much he wanted to keep his family happy.
Long story short,this one son, my friends husband just couldn't do a thing here, got depressed and they had to leave HU for Canada.
She had gotten a job for awhile here in HU at a good hair salon, Laszlo Hajos salon. She was great at doing hair lightening but said the tips after working for hours on the perfect lift etc. where so low she cried.
Like 100 forints for hours of work.
Unreal, I would cry too if I were her.
Sadly they left HU and I went back to the US, we lost contact. I do wish them the best in Canada. Even with backing things didn't work out for them here.

I agree with Rawlee. I never tip when there is a service charge and it is not part of my practice to tip anyway . I've never tipped for medical services and for example if I go for an eye test or anything medical I consider that it is that person's role to do the best job that they can do for the client and they work for wages not for tips.
Paying extra eg a tip, is supposed to be a voluntary exercise not an expectation. I am also aware that often staff do not keep their tips or profit from a service charge. The employers often take it for themselves. If people want to charge more they should increase their prices.
Sometimes if someone does a really good job for me  I will pay them a little extra or even give them a little gift to show my appreciation.

This is supposed to be a forum which I believe is a place where people are free to give their point of view. All too often things get twisted to a personalised slagging match when people do not share the same point of view.
And because of this we end up with less people feeling free to make a contribution.
I would like to hear more from other members and I dislike bullying  in any form, verbal included.

klsallee wrote:

Tips are by law suppose to be reported as income. In fact, in "normal" tax societies, it is already assumed a person makes a certain income by tips and they are taxed automatically as such.

Just because the tax authority is behind the curve here is not my problem. It is the governments. Go complain to them.

Automatic taxation. Such capitalistic idea. "Well, you're an engineer, you should be earning 1 million HUF a month. The fact that you work for 500000 doesnt matter". Automatic taxation baby!
If neither the employer nor the employee declares the correct amount of wage, how the hell should a government know how much tax a person must pay? Secret police?

In normal societies, emplyees are provided a proper wage (khm, Germany), and the motivation is not paid by the customer, but by the employer in something called "performance wage". Dont fool yourself thinking the US is a model society.

klsallee wrote:

I also know people who worked for cruise ships. They mostly talked about how well they were tipped. In fact they worked on cruise ships simply because the tips were so good. And they were tipped in hand so nothing others could pocket. Maybe your brother just got scammed. Or was in the wrong position. Oh well. His problem. High seas is lawless. Picked the wrong company to do business with. Capitalism. Free markets. Right to work laws. Tough. Grow a back bone. Lawsuit. Formal complaint. Unionize. Just some suggestions how to deal with workplace realities.

So, you are suggesting waiters should unionize, file lawsuits, etc, to improve working conditions, yet you advocate tipping to further their material well-being, instead of forcing them to unionize by denying them payment into their pockets. Fascinating.

Maybe you should try working a few more years, in an economy where there are 10 workers for 1 job. Lets observe how fast your world view collapses.

klsallee wrote:

Oh please... learn basic economics 101. Better products and services can charge higher prices. Be that a company or an individual. I made a career offering better services than the competition and was able to charge, and was paid, more than the competition because of superior products and services. Made enough. Semi-retired at age 45. If you find that disgusting then maybe you are just jealous for being unable to do the same, your skills and service quality are sub standard on the open market to compete, or "safe" planed economies and socialism is simply more your cup of tea.

I agree, better service should be more expensive. But according to law, the prices you pay should be in the menu/price list. Restaurants dont charge more based on quality of service. Tips are tax evasion. When you dine in a restaurant, you pay to the company the cost of the service, and they pay a wage to their employees. You paying directly the employee is in direct violation of every kind of business law, as you are neither the employer of the waiter, nor the waiter is the service provider, the restaurant is. Following your logic, the food could be 1 HUF, and you should tip 30000 HUF. Everyone will be happy, as the waiter was motivated, the company skipped all kinds of tax payment, and you got a cheap meal.

Sometimes employers are so greedy they will not even think of sharing any profits with a employee.
My husband worked for a HU guy in S. Ca. They did porto type , one of a kind parts for the US military and the owner of the shop also had a contract for a tiny assembly that was put into the control panels of US fighter jets.
One of our old friends quit that job and referred my husband to replace him.
The pay was per part and not by the hour. These freelance machinists would go from shop to shop at a whim back then, there used to be a high demand for these skilled people, way before the CNC machines came into play.
Ok, so they did the job the same old way for years and years at that shop. My husband took one look at the procedure they did, he took it upon himself to start the job from a different prospective and saved a good 45 mins for each part made in production time. His boss was able to make a ton more money with that time saving idea. The cheapo didn't give my husband a small percentage for each part made though. I have forgotten how much each part paid but say it was $5. a part, the shop owner made over $50 a part profit. His machinery wasn't all that great or pricey either.A good machinist can work on just about any old machine and still make good parts.My husband didn't really care at the time, the price per parts was good and he had made it go even faster with his tweeking efforts.
My husband was a bit lazy, only worked 6 hours a day 5 days a week and made a good living, no private planes or mega mansions for us but we were ok, no stress.Was self employed and just worked out of that man's shop. Paid taxes etc. too much money to be under the table or anything shady that way.
So raising the price for a good
or service doesn't always mean the workers will see any of the increase in their pay.Sad to say.
I was a bit resentful though, the guy paid cash for a airplane for his wife and bought a vacation home in Big Bear... Later had a custom house built that was over 4,000 ft big.
His wife did leave him ( karma) and she never set foot in her new large home, she took the vacation home in the mountains and had a affair with her ski instructor... Sounds like a bad movie!
Not so easy to get these gov. contracts other wise my husband would of done the same in his own shop. His bosses wife's parents were mega rich, they helped him get the first contracts with the gov.
It was pay to play and we were too young and dumb to know the rules.
I almost had my sister work for us as a go between  ( she was great at smoozing people)  for the but my husband was a dreamer and said quality work is enough to get ahead, not so. You have to wine dine and buy gifts to buyers to get contracts...
If I could only go back in time, everyone would get a gold watch and dancing girls. for the buyers..Sad that is the real world, dreaming that people will play fair is just a dream.

Suppose one could ask why my husband gave away his "trick" saving his boss 45 mins in production time for each part made.
Well in a small shop it is hard to not be noticed for one thing.
The other is if you have a gov. contract you must write down every procedure how it was done and at what speed, whatever details must be documented, As these blueprints etc. belong to the US gov.
We almost got a good contract once but my husband's co-partner was a idiot.
No one should ever ask too much on a bid and not for their very first gravy job. Need to prove your worth first.
The buyer asked for a price quote and our business partner who really was only a mill machinist, not even a full service machinist blurted out a very high price for a job.
He had a wife that worked at a good drafting job, no kids, no house payments so he didn't even give much thought to go crazy and asking for too much too soon.
After that we cut ties with him and did it on our own.
We opened up our own machine shop, had 3 over the years, always hard to get paid after jobs were finished because there were always 2 or 3 hands in the pot as well as ours. Second or third hand jobs. Several people were making money off our work before we got paid for our time and labor.

Poor crazy guy, his wife also left him later and since then he has had a stroke.
Working for others is usually a drag but working for yourself has it's own hassles.
I still believe his old boss could of and should of threw him a few more cents per part since after my husband figured out straight away that they were wasting time on unneeded motions and going about it the wrong way.
Without my husband I know that guy would never of been able to buy airplanes and custom made homes.
It's now a bit of a eye opener to see what happened to these greedy people 30 some years on.
His old boss developed brain cancer, his wife did come back to him. Not for the money since her parents were wealthy but because of old times. Saw him about 6 years back on a Vegas trip, found out he was in town and met up with him. He and his wife showed us one of their properties they bought in Vegas . Just a little get away house complete with designer touches...
I suppose he has passed on by now.
He was older then us by at least 15 or more years. He and another man who worked in the shop were both 56 er's Freedom fighters who left HU in 56 and did well in the US.

Rawlee wrote:

Automatic taxation. Such capitalistic idea.

Salaries are normally automatically deducted for taxes, as one example. Capitalism won. Even the "Communist" Chinese are now capitalistic.

Rawlee wrote:

If neither the employer nor the employee declares the correct amount of wage, how the hell should a government know how much tax a person must pay? Secret police?

By averages. If you claim you were paid 1 HUF as an engineer the tax office says "Nope... average is more than that... we will tax you at the average rate". That is how government works. Trust me, the tax may knows all the scams. Only corporations can afford a battery of attorneys to find the legal loopholes.

Rawlee wrote:

In normal societies, emplyees are provided a proper wage (khm, Germany), and the motivation is not paid by the customer, but by the employer in something called "performance wage". Dont fool yourself thinking the US is a model society.

Two points:

1) I agree that in Germany people are paid a proper wage. Which is why German companies come to Hungary so they can pay a sub-standard wage. Which the current Hungarian government supports and grants. Think about that.

2) I am not saying the US is a model society. You really need to distance yourself from such singular anti-US rhetoric because it is tiring. There are other places in the world that are better for businesses and consumers than both Hungary and the US. For example, I lived in Switzerland for many year, ran a business there. Switzerland is much more business friendly than Hungary.

klsallee wrote:

So, you are suggesting waiters should unionize, file lawsuits, etc, to improve working conditions, yet you advocate tipping to further their material well-being, instead of forcing them to unionize by denying them payment into their pockets. Fascinating.

Sighs.... Having done business internationally for decades I am suggesting that there are many options. And that there are many solutions. Economic and otherwise. Issues and solutions are complex. Not the black and white world you suggest.

klsallee wrote:

Maybe you should try working a few more years, in an economy where there are 10 workers for 1 job. Lets observe how fast your world view collapses.

I did. I succeeded by being better than the other 9. Try again before you assuming you know my past.

klsallee wrote:

I agree, better service should be more expensive. But according to law, the prices you pay should be in the menu/price list.

I am glad we agree on one thing at least.

And again, as I already said, tips should be optional. If you want to reward quality of service, then give a tip. If you don't want to reward quality of service, then don't give a tip. But also then be prepared to deal with all social consequences your decision has. I have no problem with that either way as it is a free, liberal, personal choice.

klsallee wrote:

Tips are tax evasion.

No, they are not, since, and as I already described they can be accounted for. A well oiled tax authority can accommodate and deal with tips fairly and appropriately. Just because there is no well oiled and fair tax office in Hungary is again a government problem.

Now.... Will there be some tax evasion with tips? Yes. People have been trying to cheat the tax man since forever. But guess what: well connected people with the government are also able to "reduce" their taxes in many ways (trust me, those are not always legal). Foreign tax shelters, tax havens, "knowing a guy" in the tax office. etc. etc. etc.

Taxes should, in theory, also be based on trust and honesty. But we don't have that in Hungary, do we? With the government insisting on more and more businesses have real time registers for retail sales. Why? Did you ever ask yourself why? When these are not so common abroad? Simple: If taxes are fair, people will report them. When taxes are unfair people try to avoid them. Thus when there is a 27%VAT, for example, of course people will naturally try to avoid that. The problem again is sourced from government greed and bad policy.

klsallee wrote:

Following your logic, the food could be 1 HUF, and you should tip 30000 HUF. Everyone will be happy, as the waiter was motivated, the company skipped all kinds of tax payment, and you got a cheap meal.

Nope. That is not my logic. You completely misquoted me. Try again.

anns wrote:

I would like to hear more from other members and I dislike bullying  in any form, verbal included.

Having strong disagreements is not bullying. I, for one, appreciate differences of opinion. A strong frontal rhetoric can bring out the best arguments from the other. That is not bullying. It is just passionate discussion.

Quite frankly, and as an example, I am currently enjoying Rawlee's posts. His hard hitting comments get me thinking. I hope my hard hitting replies get him thinking.

Taxes the vain of our lives...
I am now sorrier then hades that we were able to use our home as a tax reduction, also for all the tooling etc. we declared in our youth with the US tax services.
We would be in a high rise condo in Honolulu if we didn't try to out do the tax man in our youth... Oh, well, Hungary isn't all that bad.

klsallee wrote:

Salaries are normally automatically deducted for taxes, as one example. Capitalism won. Even the "Communist" Chinese are now capitalistic.

Yes, taxes are automatically deducted - from the wage reported to the authority. All the taxes are de facto paid by the employer, even though it is deducted from the employee, as the employee under normal circumstances only receives net wage.

klsallee wrote:

By averages. If you claim you were paid 1 HUF as an engineer the tax office says "Nope... average is more than that... we will tax you at the average rate". That is how government works. Trust me, the tax may knows all the scams. Only corporations can afford a battery of attorneys to find the legal loopholes.

Averages? What averages? Every month, if the wage is fluctuating, a different amount is deducted for taxes. True, in the annual tax declaration, one sees averages, but the employer pays monthly the real amounts.

Indeed, the NAV compares those earnings to the realities of the world. But they do not make up any tax amounts one has to pay. If they dont like your numbers, they simply mandate a...wealth study (correct expression?).

klsallee wrote:

1) I agree that in Germany people are paid a proper wage. Which is why German companies come to Hungary so they can pay a sub-standard wage. Which the current Hungarian government supports and grants. Think about that.

Its better to give low-paying jobs to 10 people, than to give 1 person a high-end job, as the 9 unemployed will have higher external costs, than the 1 richer person would pay in taxes. Considering our unemplyment is falling like a stone, and we actually have worker shortage now, this seems to be the correct approach.

klsallee wrote:

2) I am not saying the US is a model society. You really need to distance yourself from such singular anti-US rhetoric because it is tiring. There are other places in the world that are better for businesses and consumers than both Hungary and the US. For example, I lived in Switzerland for many year, ran a business there. Switzerland is much more business friendly than Hungary.

Criticism is anti-whatever rhetoric? Why? The culture of "state-assisted tipping" originated there. I wish not to go into other aspect of that society which should not be emulated by the wider world. Lets stick to the service sector. Lets assume the mother of the waitress just died, and she has no mood to smile. Lets punish hew with lower tips (hence lower wage), thats what she needs. Or the waiter just divorced, and his house was taken away. Yep, no smile, no tip, debtors' prison.

The culture of tipping encourages the employer to pay the bare minimum, which should be raised to an acceptable level with tips as of now. Any kind of personal tragedy that cant be suppressed entirely by the unfortunate employee this way punishes the poor employee twice.

Business environment is irrelevant to worker rights and business regulations. Someone will bake the bread, someone will run buses, and someone will operate taxis, even if Uber makes a fuss about it.

klsallee wrote:

Sighs.... Having done business internationally for decades I am suggesting that there are many options. And that there are many solutions. Economic and otherwise. Issues and solutions are complex. Not the black and white world you suggest.

Indeed, there are many options. And the current economic models do not explain at all how economies work. They totally disregard human psychology (greed, for example...khm, Apple), or the desire of societies (green energy). Japan shut down all its nuclear power plants - explain that through economics.

I dont see them B&W. I have no problem with people paid according to their performance. But it should not be done by personal perception (tip - give the waitress 30%, because her boobs were out), but with performance wage. It should be the job of the employer, like how McD handles it. The more the cahier sells you of sauces and larger sizes, the more they get in bonus. A waiter can also sway the client, by offering entrees, or desserts, or more expensive wines. Incidentally, those waiters will be able to convince the client, who are nice to the client. Tips disincentivises the representation of the interest of the estabilishment, and only furthers the interest of the employee, as they have no interest in selling you more, if they get more tip for being only nice.

klsallee wrote:

I did. I succeeded by being better than the other 9. Try again before you assuming you know my past.

I am not assuming to know your past. But I'm sure you did not pick garbage from the enormous waste dumps in India as a child, so that your family can have lunch. Or the slavery-like conditions in Africa's diamond mines, where if you open your mouth you are fired for life.

klsallee wrote:

And again, as I already said, tips should be optional. If you want to reward quality of service, then give a tip. If you don't want to reward quality of service, then don't give a tip. But also then be prepared to deal with all social consequences your decision has. I have no problem with that either way as it is a free, liberal, personal choice.

It is optional now, but I think the consequence of good service should not be more pocket money, but repeated, or even regular patronage of the place. The regular customer is preferred to the single well-paying customer, as stable income as always preferred over single large sums.

klsallee wrote:

No, they are not, since, and as I already described they can be accounted for. A well oiled tax authority can accommodate and deal with tips fairly and appropriately. Just because there is no well oiled and fair tax office in Hungary is again a government problem.

Again, declaring the earned wage is the responsibility of the employer, and if it fails to do it, the employee. However, inconsistencies between the two means immediate examination. So the net result is noone declares tip. The company does not wish to pay tax VAT after it (if it knows how much the employee pocketed), and the employee probably needs it more than to declare it. Neither side has interest in declaring this grey income, so they dont. Restaurants try to legalize it through service charges, but since either everybody has to pay it or nobody, its not a popular solution.

klsallee wrote:

Now.... Will there be some tax evasion with tips? Yes. People have been trying to cheat the tax man since forever. But guess what: well connected people with the government are also able to "reduce" their taxes in many ways (trust me, those are not always legal). Foreign tax shelters, tax havens, "knowing a guy" in the tax office. etc. etc. etc.

If a society is rotten in the foundation, on what basis do the masses expect their wealthy counterparts to be better? As the saying goes, "everybody should clean their own household".

klsallee wrote:

Taxes should, in theory, also be based on trust and honesty. But we don't have that in Hungary, do we? With the government insisting on more and more businesses have real time registers for retail sales. Why? Did you ever ask yourself why? When these are not so common abroad? Simple: If taxes are fair, people will report them. When taxes are unfair people try to avoid them. Thus when there is a 27%VAT, for example, of course people will naturally try to avoid that. The problem again is sourced from government greed and bad policy.

Reality might just prove you wrong:
https://sg.hu/cikkek/it-tech/110608/kul … epek-irant
It seems tax evasion is problem in other countries as well.
http://www.debatingeurope.eu/wp-content … vasion.png
How can other EU countries be behind us, if we are such tax evaders?  Italy, Portugal, Greece, what is the reason behind their similar numbers?

Corruption is natural, everywhere, it is due to human nature. Check this article. Baron Gyula Andrássy Prime Minister (I believe Andrássy út rings a bell), when he heard that the city wants to build a new boulevard (built in 1876), bought some land, and then swayed the city council to build the road over those plots. And the city named it after him (in 1885).
http://index.hu/belfold/2011/05/19/igy_lopunk_mi/
Ever wondered why the railroads go the way the go? Why they bypass some cities, and enter other insignificant villages? Land speculation, nothing else.

Rawlee wrote:

...Corruption is natural, everywhere, it is due to human nature. Check this article. Baron Gyula Andrássy Prime Minister (I believe Andrássy út rings a bell), when he heard that the city wants to build a new boulevard (built in 1876), bought some land, and then swayed the city council to build the road over those plots. And the city named it after him (in 1885).
http://index.hu/belfold/2011/05/19/igy_lopunk_mi/
Ever wondered why the railroads go the way the go? Why they bypass some cities, and enter other insignificant villages? Land speculation, nothing else.

Wow, I'd never ever have guessed such a thing as self-interest had anything to do with political decisions: Felcsút Factor.

Rawlee wrote:

Averages? What averages?

As reported to a tax authority for each type of income generating business. This is really not a difficult concept, so I will not belabor it further here. There are plenty of references on-line you can check to confirm this.

Rawlee wrote:

Every month, if the wage is fluctuating, a different amount is deducted for taxes.

Salaries of salaried employees do not fluctuate month by month. The only fluctuation is for hourly employees who work less than a "normal" 40 hours a week for some reason. Which is unusual as they normally try to work at least that amount to earn a consistent wage. Else, this is a non-issue and a non-argument.

Rawlee wrote:

Its better to give low-paying jobs to 10 people, than to give 1 person a high-end job, as the 9 unemployed will have higher external costs, than the 1 richer person would pay in taxes.

Then pay every employee 1 HUF an hour and have full employment.

Problem with above is real world expenses. That is, retail costs of goods will not reflect income and you have people working for incomes less than their expenses. "Employment" alone is not the point. Again, basic economics 101.

Yes, it sounds great, the concept of employment as you suggest. Everybody working while ignoring a living wage. But it is simply a political rally point that politicians like to banter about to the economically illiterate. While creating an entire pollution of government sanctioned employed but underpaid poor living in real world economic poverty. It is actually better to have a natural economy that supports higher wages, and supply support services and payments to the temporary unemployed. Which most western countries do.

And again, I am not saying that there should not be a standard, acceptable, minimum livable wage. What I am saying is that even that "minimum" wage will always be a compromise. Always. But tipping those at that wage does not only help them, but encourages good service behavior. Thus, it is not just a "payment" is it social conditioning. If you don't agree.... *shrugs*.... that is your right to do so.

Rawlee wrote:

Considering our unemplyment is falling like a stone, and we actually have worker shortage now, this seems to be the correct approach.

Worker shortages in Hungary are caused by Hungarians leaving Hungary to go abroad to work for higher wages. That is, no Hungarian wants to work for peanuts in Hungary when they can make more working somewhere else. Sometimes, only language barriers keep many in Hungary.

So again, basic economic principles explains everything that is actually related to economics (not trying to explain earthquakes here, see below). Not political rhetoric.

Rawlee wrote:

The culture of "state-assisted tipping" originated there.

Tipping is not really a "state assisted" issue. While it can be via the tax authority, allowing payment below minimum wage for some service employees who get tips, I actually do not agree with such government action. And just to clarify, that we are not confusing issues:

Again, there is tipping and grease money. And then there is bribery.

Tipping is an economic activity between players in the economy. It may be at the corporate CEO level, or it may be at the lower wage income levels. Almost always intra-business or employee-consumer transactions. It is in theory designed to encourage better service from players in the economy. It is a merit based pay supplement.

Grease money is people in authority, usually a government employee but not always, asking for special favors to just do their job. This does not necessarily get better service.

Bribery is people in authority, usually a government employee but not always asking for payment for any number of reasons. Usually to do something inappropriate or maybe illegal.

I do not approve of grease money or bribery, which are the more "state assisted" institutions than tipping.

Rawlee wrote:

Lets assume the mother of the waitress just died, and she has no mood to smile. Lets punish hew with lower tips (hence lower wage), thats what she needs. Or the waiter just divorced, and his house was taken away. Yep, no smile, no tip, debtors' prison.

Silly. Tips are based on holistic quality of service. If you consider "smiles" alone as quality of service, then you have a very low standard.

And when I had personal family tragedy, I still had to do my job. And if I did not do my job well, I might be fired. I know that sucks. But that is life.

Rawlee wrote:

Indeed, there are many options. And the current economic models do not explain at all how economies work. They totally disregard human psychology (greed, for example...khm, Apple), or the desire of societies (green energy).

I agree.

Rawlee wrote:

Japan shut down all its nuclear power plants - explain that through economics.

I don't have to explain that via economics. The plants were shut down because they had an earthquake and tsunami which caused widespread damage at the Fukushima plant, and out of precautions the other plants were shut down to assess possible damage to these plants... because again... of an earthquake. Currently the Sendai plant is back online. But not without protests. Because nuclear power has risks and issues, even in ideal conditions. Risks that the Hungarian government is currently ignoring, need I add.

Rawlee wrote:

I have no problem with people paid according to their performance. But it should not be done by personal perception (tip - give the waitress 30%, because her boobs were out)

If you think, or even suggest, or even want to use the argument, that tips be based on exposure of a woman's breasts, then maybe you still do not understand my point. In fact, such a suggestion is potentially insulting to the women, or man, worthy of a tip simply for being professional.

Rawlee wrote:

but with performance wage. It should be the job of the employer, like how McD handles it. The more the cahier sells you of sauces and larger sizes, the more they get in bonus. A waiter can also sway the client, by offering entrees, or desserts, or more expensive wines.

And the insurance sales person, the corporate CEO, the auto seller, etc. etc. etc. That is reality. The alternative is often people who just get a nice fat paycheck for maybe just warming a chair.

The world is not perfect. Both options have benefits and drawbacks. Sorry if you don't like it. But that is reality.

Rawlee wrote:

I am not assuming to know your past. But I'm sure you did not pick garbage from the enormous waste dumps in India as a child, so that your family can have lunch. Or the slavery-like conditions in Africa's diamond mines, where if you open your mouth you are fired for life.

True. Not that bad. But I doubt you have either. So I don't think you can go that low unless you have been that low. But I did my fair share of very low level manual jobs. Literally dealing and picking up garbage and "crap" in the most literal sense. And have been so poor that my daily meal was only bread. Have you been that poor or been that bad off? If you have, what is your complaint? If you have not, then quite frankly, you have no right, seriously zero right, to critique me on this topic.

So, in conclusion, my experiences on all economic levels, income sources and means of survival are factual, direct and personal. Based on your arguments, your's mostly seem theoretical. I would think about that.

Just a few  random thoughts on this early morning.
I used to believe the world should run on just a barter system.
As I actually worked in industries which gave tips, I am biased I suppose.
Some people work hard and get little tips, not their fault they are not as attractive or naturally funny or friendly.
In Vegas we shared our tips for a 24 hour period between 3 shifts.
All taxed and put on our bi-weekly paychecks.
What did make some of us angry was many dealers just stood there when their tables were "dead" and looked bored.
This was not going to generate more tips for those of us working hard on a busy table.
We had to get pep talks every morning with the floor person to tell dealers to smile.
The thing was most of these unsmiling dealers were foreigners who didn't fully understand the way of the west.
I used to hate myself for being naturally friendly because I would smile out of pure boredom and people would decide to sit down and play at my table.
Exactly what my job was for really.
Many of these unsmiling dealers were actually very nice people, they just culturally felt odd smiling into the blue for no reason or saying hello as a stranger passed them by inside the casino.
In the old days of Vegas, dealers worked for their own tips in cash. That was a whole different "deal". Not really fair to unpopular people. If you didn't pay the boss part of your tips then you might be stuck for ever on a slow game, a Big Spin or some "parlor style game" games where no one really tipped. Being put on a high roller table was only for those in the loop. Some dealers were able to buy new cars every year and had huge homes with pools in Vegas while others lived in monthly rentals. Almost like you had to sell your soul to make good tips, that is sort of sickening to think about.
I think the sharing a equal split is good, even those unfriendly dealers are working hard just being there and often they have the cleanest, best dealing style.
Almost like a little village, everyone had different things to offer so we all could make money.
Some days I dropped over $1,000 on a mid day blackjack game in one hour, other days I worked hard and dropped a buck in a hour. it was great that we all shared because some people would go hungry if  not for the even split.

I once worked in a beauty salon with a tiny really cute little Mexican lady who always had male clients,She knew how to "work it" too.
Super short skirts and low cut tops, she made a killing in tips.
Not my thing to do, to use your looks for money, besides I am the sort of person who likes to be taken seriously when I am working, just selling a hair-do nothing more then that.
Hard to believe as a 19 year old I was hired at a strip club as a cocktail waitress in NYC. Had the looks to make some tips but my attitude was like , OK, I look cute but I am only serving you a drink, not my fault they told me to wear this tight outfit.No we did not strip, wore clothing, actually really no one looked at us much at all.they were looking elsewhere! Only did that for 2 weeks, not my thing but wanted to try it out to see what was going on. If you don't try something yourself, you really have no clue.
I worked with a women from the uK who was a world traveler, she was only doing this job for travel money. We both made almost nothing in tips while other women made bank.
Wrong industry for me that's for sure.
Anyways, not everyone pulls their weight when sharing tips.
I also believe in the barter system not everyone has skills enough for trade, not everyone wants what you have to sell in skills.
It would be great if everyone got paid a living wage and was also able to make a bit more for effort if they chose to do more then everyone else at the same job.
My husband used to work even in old commie Hungary doing piece work, no one to blame but himself if he messed up his work and no one wanted it.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

...Some days I dropped over $1,000 on a mid day blackjack game in one hour, other days I worked hard and dropped a buck in a hour. ...

'scuse my ignorance.....

I've only been in a casino once and I bet once on a slot machine and lost and never tried it again...

How can you work hard to lower the losses?  Surely it's a random chance on the cards/spin of the wheel?  Just luck? Or skill?

Sorry, this is the truth, I rarely gamble , seen too many losers. $5. is my max to play with, have to go really slow to not lose fast.
My husband basically "forced" me to sit next to him when he played $20. or so at video poker. Blew my mind that a smart guy could sit there for hours and watch a silly screen, he said he liked not thinking and it was relaxing. To me wasting money like that is far from relaxing.
If not for the drinks I would of gone nuts.Yes I tip for every drink served by them. At least a buck a drink depending on what you order.Some people tip at least a few bucks a drink, if that was the case though I wouldn't be able to drink much... I find gambling to be a big bore, like I said it was the perfect job for me because I never got emotional about it one way or the other.
The years I was a dealer no one could ever get me into a casino on my days off, I had to be paid to set foot in one of those dark holes.
It actually was a good job for me being a games dealer because I was not impressed at any win or loss. Just a job to me.
I worked over the years with a few dealers that like gambling allot.
Everything from video poker game, slots, table games and sports betting.
You are not allowed to gamble in uniform where you work and some casinos are strict that you can not play at their property as a employee even on your days off.
All the dealers I worked with with gambling habits, never got rich, highs and super lows. One guy , he was funnier then anyone I ever met, had a serious depressing sports betting habit. He was very overweight and it couldn't of been easy for him to stand for 16 hours a day. Yes, he had to take on another full time gaming job to support his gambling habit. One job for his bills and one for his habit, he had a room mate that worked with us but still he went down over a few years. His car was trashed out, a real wreck, all his money was spent on sports gambling.
He was well loved by everyone, mostly, because of his sly humor and smile. Super smart, all the bosses respected him and he was in training to be a floor manager. He was tossed out on his ear one day, really sad all because of his habit. He was stealing a large amount of our shared tips.
In the old days we used to place our tips in our shirt pocket and drop them in a box as we went on our hourly breaks.
He was so heavy set that it was easy to not notice a few checks( chips) that he left every hour in his pocket on purpose.
He was always on a big game with bit tips, He was making out like crazy until he got busted.
I saw him one dealing cards without a smile on his face at a run down old casino in downtown Vegas, he really hit the skids...
The rule is don't gamble more then you can afford to lose, in my case my little $5. was to rich for my blood.
Many stores about those daily players, most had money , some lost everything in time and others have more money then they know what to do with.
Had a beautiful chinese women play daily with her bro and sis at my bac. table. One day she came in alone, she was the only player at my table.
she busted out crying and begged me to let her win! What??
She said she had just lost over $50,000 at another casino and needed to win something that day.
Yes, I was pissed she even told me that, Like I would fix a game for her or something, not even possible to do that.
unless you perhaps practice , not my thing, don't need any broken legs or worst.
That dealer who got caught stealing was fired, I guess they never called the cops on him because he was able to still work in town. They really liked him I suppose because once you cheat you are usually out forever. We all have FBI background checks and police reports done before you can get hired, they update them every few years too, finger prints , everything.I suppose dealers are more upstanding citizens then average with all those checks and balances. I know Wynn property will not hire anyone with credit card debts that are not paid up.
My son once put $5. in a machine, on his second bet he won $1,000. My husband had hit the jackpot of a thousand or more a few times but it probably worked out to be even in the end.
My son was dating a sweet Korean women in Vegas who made a ton of money as a dancer, her problem was she loved the machines as well Sometimes she would pull a all nighter at a machine and waste over $5,000, come home all depressed and have to go dance again... Sad, like her but so so happy when our son broke up with her, that habit is so dangerous.
When I was a newbie  dealer in the late 90's my husband would sit on his day off where i worked and play all day long for $20. and mostly break even or make a few bucks, He would wait for me to get off work and I would stop by on my breaks and see how he was doing. These days they seemed to have done something to the machines because $20. will not even last an hour most times.
PS, You never , ever even think about dealing to friends or family... Not good in so many ways plus that would get a instant fire.
My son later had another pretty Asian lady as a GF, from China, Hong Kong. A few days after he broke up with her she came into my casino with a girlfriend of hers and went crazy on my table. I acted like I didn't know her but it was so sad.She was tipping me like crazy even though just about every big bet was a loser, like she was just throwing money at me in tips for no reason. It was about the longest hour I ever worked, sad, gambling is really evil at times.
To actually try and answer the  question about winning on machines. Well I once had a break with one of the tecs who set the machines. I straight out asked him if they can set the machines to pay out. He never gave me a straight answer but by his vibe I suspect they can adjust them to pay out more often. Can't prove it over time we noticed that one certain days and certain casinos it was easier to win then at other properties. Wouldn't bet on it though!!

Once time we had a huge winner at our locals casino in Vegas.
this was in the late 90's.
He played baccarat and played all over town.
The bosses know the faces of most daily players, heck after awhile I unfortunately recognised players everywhere, in the store, restaurants.
Once even where we lived, which really , really messed with my head.
Went to the pool in our complex and 2 men were already out there sitting at a table.
One walked over to me after my swim and said, "I know you, you took all my money"! He was not being threatening but it could of happened.
This one time big winner came to our casino and bought in for only $800. He won and won and couldn't stop winning.
I came to work the next day and the bosses were in a tizzy, they wanted that money back. He had won nearly one million bucks with that $800. buy in.
They talked him into not leaving the casino, gave him a good room food whatever he wanted. Just so he wouldn't walk out the door with their money.
We dealers were happy for him , he tipped the dealers like crazy.
Forgot where he had moved from, think Syria but he had lived in the states for well over 20 years. He was a regular at our casino and never usually was a winner.
Long story he finally walked out after like 48 hours of them trying their hardest to keep him on property. Walked away with $750,000.
Sounds like a fairy tale BUT he owned money to just about every casino in town on his credit lines. After paying that all off he was probably down to less then his $800.
You can not win big unless you are willing to lose big too.

klsallee wrote:

As reported to a tax authority for each type of income generating business. This is really not a difficult concept, so I will not belabor it further here. There are plenty of references on-line you can check to confirm this.

Salaries of salaried employees do not fluctuate month by month. The only fluctuation is for hourly employees who work less than a "normal" 40 hours a week for some reason. Which is unusual as they normally try to work at least that amount to earn a consistent wage. Else, this is a non-issue and a non-argument.

Of course if fluctuates. I earn 3% commission on the sales of our online store, hence, it fluctuates based on the amount we sell. Most sales people live off commisions, hence pay different amount of taxes each month. Factory workers, whose wage is made up of normal+perfomance wage also have different wages each month.
Overtime is also an extra that is irregular.

klsallee wrote:

Problem with above is real world expenses. That is, retail costs of goods will not reflect income and you have people working for incomes less than their expenses. "Employment" alone is not the point. Again, basic economics 101.

Then you have never been poor, outside of the US. My grandparents liveds in Borsod county, for 76 years (they died 9 years ago). Not once did they spend more than their income (which was laughably low, even by standards of those years). The trick was not spending the money they didnt have. When they died, their children sold their house they've built with their hands, on about a hectare land. It was sold for 250000HUF. Thats what their lives worth, about ~60 years of work.

klsallee wrote:

Yes, it sounds great, the concept of employment as you suggest. Everybody working while ignoring a living wage. But it is simply a political rally point that politicians like to banter about to the economically illiterate. While creating an entire pollution of government sanctioned employed but underpaid poor living in real world economic poverty. It is actually better to have a natural economy that supports higher wages, and supply support services and payments to the temporary unemployed. Which most western countries do.

I think your way is the theoretical, not mine. You toss away those who are not employed, form the equation. Unemplyed people have elevated healthcare and general social costs (communal housing, for instance), not to mention these costs have to be covered by those who work.

You should ask FDR why his solution, the New Deal, was to provide millions of low-paying jobs, instead of providing far less, but better paying workplaces.

klsallee wrote:

And again, I am not saying that there should not be a standard, acceptable, minimum livable wage. What I am saying is that even that "minimum" wage will always be a compromise. Always. But tipping those at that wage does not only help them, but encourages good service behavior. Thus, it is not just a "payment" is it social conditioning. If you don't agree.... *shrugs*.... that is your right to do so.

Then tipping the politicians is also just social conditioning, to provide better service to those who tip them. Its really the same. The difference is, you couldnt give a rat's a**, if the person at the next table gets a cold soup, but you are outraged, if he gets the warm soup, and you dont. Double standards.

klsallee wrote:

Worker shortages in Hungary are caused by Hungarians leaving Hungary to go abroad to work for higher wages. That is, no Hungarian wants to work for peanuts in Hungary when they can make more working somewhere else. Sometimes, only language barriers keep many in Hungary.

Now you (and them) are ignoring the realities. How on Earth are companies supposed to raise wages, if the customers cant pay higher prices for the products/services, due to their similar wage? This is a catch 22.

By the way, that would be true, if the absolute value of employment wouldnt rise:
http://magyartakarek.blog.hu/2017/05/29 … aprilisban

So again, basic economic principles explains everything that is actually related to economics (not trying to explain earthquakes here, see below). Not political rhetoric.

klsallee wrote:

Tipping is an economic activity between players in the economy. It may be at the corporate CEO level, or it may be at the lower wage income levels. Almost always intra-business or employee-consumer transactions. It is in theory designed to encourage better service from players in the economy. It is a merit based pay supplement.

Grease money is people in authority, usually a government employee but not always, asking for special favors to just do their job. This does not necessarily get better service.

Bribery is people in authority, usually a government employee but not always asking for payment for any number of reasons. Usually to do something inappropriate or maybe illegal.

I see. Just like money for political campaigns is not bribery. Sure, I get it.
Tipping is tax free (mostly).
http://ado.hu/rovatok/ado/a-felszolgala … -kozterhei

klsallee wrote:

Silly. Tips are based on holistic quality of service. If you consider "smiles" alone as quality of service, then you have a very low standard.

Possible. I dont expect anything from a waiter other than to bring me from the kitchen the food that I ordered. I also expect tasty food, but that is not the waiter's problem. For this service, I dont know why I should pay an extra. For not falling over with the plates?

klsallee wrote:

And when I had personal family tragedy, I still had to do my job. And if I did not do my job well, I might be fired. I know that sucks. But that is life.

Excelant way to make a depressed workforce! Continue!
http://primarypsychiatry.com/category/archive/page/44/http://primarypsychiatry.com/wp-content … gFig_3.jpg

klsallee wrote:

I don't have to explain that via economics. The plants were shut down because they had an earthquake and tsunami which caused widespread damage at the Fukushima plant, and out of precautions the other plants were shut down to assess possible damage to these plants... because again... of an earthquake. Currently the Sendai plant is back online. But not without protests. Because nuclear power has risks and issues, even in ideal conditions. Risks that the Hungarian government is currently ignoring, need I add.

Had the pleasure to study under the best nuclear expert (Attila Aszódi) in the country. The government rightly ignores all criticism, as they are all political and not professional. Nuclear is the only feasible electricity generation method we have in this basin, beside burning coal, gas or wood.

klsallee wrote:

If you think, or even suggest, or even want to use the argument, that tips be based on exposure of a woman's breasts, then maybe you still do not understand my point. In fact, such a suggestion is potentially insulting to the women, or man, worthy of a tip simply for being professional.

https://www.hooters.com/
Irrelevant what you think is ethical. Beautiful people get better job opportunities, get higher wages, and are generally more successful in life. Amount of skin showed in a restaurant is not an exception. It all raises the amount of the tip people give.

klsallee wrote:

And the insurance sales person, the corporate CEO, the auto seller, etc. etc. etc. That is reality. The alternative is often people who just get a nice fat paycheck for maybe just warming a chair.

And most of those do get paid based on their perfomance, called commission.

klsallee wrote:

True. Not that bad. But I doubt you have either. So I don't think you can go that low unless you have been that low. But I did my fair share of very low level manual jobs. Literally dealing and picking up garbage and "crap" in the most literal sense. And have been so poor that my daily meal was only bread. Have you been that poor or been that bad off? If you have, what is your complaint? If you have not, then quite frankly, you have no right, seriously zero right, to critique me on this topic.

So, in conclusion, my experiences on all economic levels, income sources and means of survival are factual, direct and personal. Based on your arguments, your's mostly seem theoretical. I would think about that.

My grandparents are personal enough. 8 hours in a coal mine, mandated by the communist government, and a little fieldwork until 22 hours truly warms the soul. Giving away the milk their cow gave, for basically spare change (also mandated, not by their choice). All this while taking care of 3 children, and garden, the vast potato field and the grape fields.

Also, I remember getting boxes of vegetables from them while I was little, as my parents couldnt afford to buy any. Our first car was a USED Trabant.

I also remeber stories how my great-grandfather spent about 30 years in Siberia. My father didnt elaborate, as he said that even today he has nightmares of the stories. Only story I know...have you ever tried soup made of your boots? It supposedly tastes worse than boiled water, but it at least gives some taste. I remember stories how my grandmother evaded being raped by a soviet batallion by hiding in the corn storage. Her girlfriend wasnt this lucky in the haystack. So go on, educate me how hard you know life was/is. I have seen how hard it is to build up an existence where the my grandparents could only help my parents by sending vegetables. True, my experiences are second hand. But only thanks to my ancestors.

You will never convince me that giving 10 people low-paying jobs is worse than giving 1 a good job, because without those packages of vegetables, I might not be talking with you. And you will also never convince me that some people deserve extra for doing their job.

Such a sad story of hardship, in the US people also had hard times but perhaps a full generation before it really hit Hungary during the after WW11 times.
I know of so many Hungarians who suffered beyond belief that it isn't really enough to even write about it.
Our son and everyone sort of thinks we have a few bucks here invested in Hungary.
In reality my MIL also left us a portion of her life of working her self to death. We went 50-50 with my SIL after giving up our good paying US jobs to come to HU and wait and wait for nearly 2 years for my MIL property to sell.
Such a hassle really because in the end we could of made that amount and more not even quitting our jobs.
It was out of respect mostly for her years and years of struggle and hard work.
I still do not fully understand why we had to hassle coming to HU years ago to sell her home. My BIL ans SIL lived less then a block away and had the time to sell without us giving up our lives to do that. As it was, they had already benefited by taking my husband's share of some land, he never got a thing out of a slice of land his mom bought with her own savings for her 3 kids, not just the 2 of them but for all 3 equally.One reason we didn't really cry over our BIL being cut out of her will, he already got more then he should of.
We even supported her for 3 years, she had enough SS in Hu to live on but legally we wanted to support her so her home wouldn't wind up with her son, who she wrote out of her will for personal reasons.
When she passed away we were given a account with every single penny we gave her returned to us. That was not expected at all.
We still have her in our minds when we think about selling our flat and moving on, we still think what would she  like for us.
She worked so hard before and after the war.
Raised 3 kids on her own for a few years, then got married but still 100% paid for her 3 kids, never asked a penny from her new husband for her children's support.
She used to own her own dairy store on Vaci Utca, now it has turned into some "trendy" shop or the other.
Yes, we and I mean everyone basically under the age of 65 is a whimp living off the efforts of the generation before us.
Let's just hope they are resting in peace and not ashamed of us, their children and grandchildren.
Not even sure why that older generation had to suffer so much. My FIL, my husband's step-dad spent 5 or 6 years in a Russian POW camp, forced labor, my American step-dad was also a POW, knows many wonderful ways to cook a rat..I actually think the old shoe sole sounds allot more "gourmet" .. Not trying to be funny but without humor we would all cry in our beer.
We should be grateful for what we have and not be so caught up with doing better then our neighbors, you really never know what a person has gone through in life.
My MIL also had to hide from soldiers from all countries during WW11. She was kept in the cellar and never left the building for 2 years straight. She was lucky her mother and uncle lived in the same house. She hide in the cellar when foreign soldiers we in Budapest. My SIL was only 2 years old and every time a US or UK bomb hit the city her ears would bleed. Dead starving babies in the cellar too. My MIL tried to even help out a new mom by breastfeeding her infant daughter because the mom was so hungry all she could give her baby was blood, no milk at all. Of course my MIL first had to think of her own 2 year old daughter... Just heartbreaking stuff that really no one in the west can even understand, not their fault, who wants to think of such horrors.
My step- dad's family also worked in the coal mines in the US in the 1930's doesn't really matter what country someone lives in, hard times are hard times.He used to raid the trash cans for more food as a kid, it was messed up growing up with him, we were not allowed to toss away a single scrap of food unless it was for the dog, that poor dog...
My mother had to quit school at age 14 in the early 1930's because her mother died and she had to help support her 12 year old sister. Was raised by her native Mohawk grandmother in a racist world.
It does sort of make one angry I admit to see people expecting handouts for nothing but we must of voted on it at some point? Not even sure but yes, it is hard to let go and not get upset sometimes.
These crimes are still going on in places. I worked in Vegas with a Muslim women from Serbia who lived through the war there when she was a school girl of aged 17.
She was walking home from school with 2 of her friends when they all were raped and shot, left for dead. She survived , the Red Cross or some other charity brought her to the US.
Her boyfriend was actually a sweet young HUngarian guy who left HU at age 14. He tired very hard to treat her right but she had a few issues from her attack, even shot herself once again in the stomach trying to kill herself to forget what happened.
She was able within a few years of being in the US to bring over her parents and brother, I actually worked in the same casino with him a few years on.
She was cute and a good dealer, young enough to be in demand in bigger casinos. Last I heard she went to the Hard Rock casino in Vegas and was making allot in tips, Good for her.
She was funny and in your face, never messed around with being overly nice to silly players, when people wouldn't tip her she would actually tell them how spoiled they were and tell them about her life before coming to the US. I am sure the bosses wouldn't like her doing that but I was always rooting for her, people tipped her out of shame.

Sorry for the long rant above, was just in a writing mood.
I really know nothing much about how they tax tips in Hungary, I doubt they do at all unless it is part of the service charge in a bill.
In the US as hairdressers we declare our own tips, if you do not declare all of them in the long run you will lose out when you retire as your income will show less then it actually was.
Like I said, in some jobs every penny is counted as in dealing cards. That's because we shared equally and someone had to keep records of daily tokes.

I also hate to upset anyone with tales of woe from past miseries of anyone's relations.

It is a sad part of this life. I am sure there is a generational memory in our DNA which sometimes makes it hard to live without feeling a bit guilty for enjoying life knowing many suffered for us to have it good.
I am sure if the dead could talk they would want their kids, grandkids to enjoy and not be bitter for things that can't be changed.

It's some beautiful weather out there, everyone should take a few hours and get out and enjoy it.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

...It's some beautiful weather out there, everyone should take a few hours and get out and enjoy it.

Colours on the trees are great just now.  From where I am I can see the Buda hills and it's turning into a fantastic display.  Best to make the most of the weather as I read it will turn at the weekend.

Yes, it is so pretty outside right now. Had a great walk in the park yesterday, the leaves were beautiful.
Margot Island is next for a walk I think.
Too bad about the weekend, there is a Fisherman's event of some sort this weekend at Tata, which I wanted to attend.
All good though, love the cold weather also...
One of the things I like the best about Hungary is the seasons.
Not used to having 4 seasons. Still can't believe how fast they change from one to the next.
In Calif. we have sunny and hot and sunny and smoggy.

Wow, have you ever tried to introduce yourself to a long lost relation?
My cus in the US, actually 2 of them in the US are really into connecting the dots now that they have time and are retired.
I was just sent over a message that one of them has finally found our long lost cousin. This is one who's family was forced out of the Gorlice area and moved to Warsaw. After the war they returned to find their home burnt to the ground. They stayed there, camped outside and cooked outside to rebuild their home. This cuz was trying to attend school to be a teacher.
We thought we lost her but she has returned. Now 78 years old, lived these past 20 years in the USA as a teacher and has just moved back to Poland to retire.
Amazing stuff really.
I find it a bit sad that we have all found each other in our old age but better late then never.
Just wrote  her a short letter and sent a few photos along.
So odd she is my second cousin, our grandfathers were brothers.
So odd, really so very odd.
The nice thing is by her letters is that she speaks and writes in English better then I do!
She seems like very smart "normal" person, I better go slow as to not freak  her out being  her crazy American cousin from Cali.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Wow, have you ever tried to introduce yourself to a long lost relation?
My cus in the US, actually 2 of them in the US are really into connecting the dots now that they have time and are retired.
I was just sent over a message that one of them has finally found our long lost cousin......
The nice thing is by her letters is that she speaks and writes in English better then I do!
She seems like very smart "normal" person, I better go slow as to not freak  her out being  her crazy American cousin from Cali.

If she lived in the USA for 20 years, then she'd be used to California ways surely.  Congrats on the contact.  I'm sometimes searching for my own relatives from way back using online records. It's amazingly easy these days and the UK has very long records indeed.  The Mormons are quite keen on record keeping back in Utah and are digitising all records.

On another but related subject concerning crazy people.

Mrs Fluffy mentioned to another parent that the Fluffyettes were watching Sponge Bob on TV before they went to school.  Mrs Fluffy said that this parent (in all seriousness!) said TV was the work of the devil and the kid should do homework.   Now we're wondering how to invite that kid to the Halloween party!  Really the work of the devil....

Devil, as a child I was totally confused about Halloween.
My dad used to go out to the bar when my mom had her bible studies in our home with the JW's.
They do not do any holidays except Easter, and that is done different then just dinner and eggs.
My mom was sitting on the fence with her JW stuff.
She allowed us to do Halloween but we were to not tell the bible lady.
Like what?
Either you believe it or you don't...
We did all the holidays but felt guilty about it.
I do think now that there is allot of crazy things that happen at Halloween but just some kids in customs eating candy is harmless.
Dang my dad even took my sisters and friends to party in the graveyard on Halloween once, now that was a bit "Devilish" of him.
This long lost cuz lived in the mid-west of the US, we Cali people are not like anywhere else....
I find it a bit strange that I am now in contact with all these family members just before we all kick it.
All those wasted years, oh, well. There must be a reason that we met in this lifetime, not sure though.

As a child I had heard the word Halloween but never knew what it was. In those days it was a non event in UK. There was always fireworks night, "Penny for the guy" etc. I'm glad that by the time "Trick or treat" took serious hold in Britain I was living in the countryside rather than a town. To me it is like parents dressing their children in rags and sending them out begging.

fidobsa wrote:

As a child I had heard the word Halloween but never knew what it was. In those days it was a non event in UK. There was always fireworks night, "Penny for the guy" etc. I'm glad that by the time "Trick or treat" took serious hold in Britain I was living in the countryside rather than a town. To me it is like parents dressing their children in rags and sending them out begging.

I was in Asda in Thetford, Norfolk (of all places) about 2 weeks ago and there was one whole aisle of supermarket taken up with Halloween stuff.  Apparently it's now bigger than Christmas.

(For non-UK folk: Asda is owned by Walmart and Thetford is in the East of England)

Funny, my Hungarian husband went crazy and almost didn't let our son go out trick or treating with his friends when he was young in the US.
My husband said, "I can afford candy for my son, he doesn't need to beg". He never heard of anything so silly but then they have some "odd" customs in Hu as well.
He also used to get confused and upset when my son or one of his little friends would have a sleep over.
He would ask if that child had his own bed or not at home.
The funny things that happen when married to someone from another culture.
It is a big thing in the US, kids can wear their customs to grade school and they have Halloween parades at school.
Not even sure how it got to be so big in the US, suppose someone thought of a way to cash in in the candy industry or something to do with the Salem witch trials in Mass. back in the day.
Like I said in another post, it has always been a strange celebration to me.
My sisters loved it to death, even as a adult my one sister would attend big parties in LA all dressed up.
My father had a thing about it too. all in good fun though.
He would make us all sit in the dark in our customs before we were let out to ask for candy all night long. He would sit us down  with the lights out and recite the , "Raven" by Poe. He'd hold a flashlight under his face and talk in a deep creepy voice, Shut off the light and make a spooky noise and chase us  out of the house.
We would get our pillow sacks to fill up, kilos of candy each.
My mom would not allow us to eat any of it until she looked every piece over. Even in the 60's some idiots would tinker with the treats, add glass or worst to treats.
Never allowed to go out in groups less then 3 or 4 , the more the better really.
I do not think kids go door to door here in Hungary, with all the steps and distances between farms they would be worn out before they collected much.
On second thought, maybe the dentists in the US were behind this holiday, I know my back teeth took a beating from all that sugar.

This morning my husband told me some news from yesterday about the closing of all Scientology churches in Hungary.
Something about people coming forward and telling what happened to them as members. People found being abused.
Has anyone heard about this ?
I so far have not seen anything in English posted online about this topic.
Back in the 1970's they were always trying to recruit people in Hollywood, Ca. They would approached everyone walking the streets.
I also heard they have closed all the Jehovah Witness Kingdom Halls in Hungary.
Not sure about that news either.
There was a Hall near our apt. might have to walk past there and look for myself.
Makes me think of all those old cults that have come and gone over the years.
I know of some people who were caught up in the Source Cult.
As a teenager I often would walk past their restaurant in Hollywood, Ca. They all wore white cloth outfits and they catered to the wealthier crowd with their health food.
I couldn't afford to eat there as a kid so guess that was a lucky thing looking back now.
I walked past there all the time on my walks and noticed some members were just slightly older then I was, sort of freaky, all good looking young people running around with a glazed look on their faces.
Later they closed that restaurant down and everyone moved to Hawaii.
I knew a guy from Ireland when I was a teen who was a member of the Source. A odd dude, I remember because he was always asking me out and I always said no way and laughed at him, couldn't get past that weird white custom he would wear...
It was odd, we only met the Irish guy because he happened to be renting a room from a couple we knew as friends. A "Stoner" couple, guess he lived with them before becoming a full member of the Source. I know members all lived together in a big house in Ca. before their big move to Hawaii.
later we knew many Hungarians who were older men , well in the 40's or so at the time who got involved with the Source at a manger style level.
All those young misty eyed women and young men, just odd stuff.
They also were in Hawaii and were buddy buddy with the leader of the cult.
Long crazy handed down tales of him having a room full of young women in the WC with him giving him the encouragement to do his daily business with the WC!! They even lent him a hand in clean up!!
That's how under a spell some people got with this "church".
All ended when the leader went hang gliding in Hawaii and crashed to his death.
They even have/had a documentary on Netflix about this, was on a couple years back but maybe it can be seen still.Forgot the name was something like, "The Family" or "The Source"
No mention at all in the documentary about any "Hungarian" connections but they were into it, at least 2 guys we knew for a fact.
Just found it interesting that the gov. in Hungary is involved with closing these places up.
I noticed the Hare Krishna's feeding the poor last Sat. at Blaha Luza Square. Long, long lines of people waiting for food.
Not sure what is so wrong about that,maybe they are next in the list to be closed down?
Just interesting , sort of.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

This morning my husband told me some news from yesterday about the closing of all Scientology churches in Hungary.
....
I also heard they have closed all the Jehovah Witness Kingdom Halls in Hungary.
Not sure about that news either.
There was a Hall near our apt. might have to walk past there and look for myself.
...

There's a JW hall a few km away from me. I passed it a day or so ago and it was still there with its sign up.  I've never seen anyone there though and I pass it regularly.  Nice building, well maintained, they must have money.

I'd have thought someone would challenge the closure of these places on some grounds - freedom of expression or something. 

Not that I care for any of these groups.

Usually the JW's are busy in the evenings or Sat.
Money, well members are asked to give 10% of their income.
One reason ( thankfully) that my mom never really went all the way with them, with 4 kids and a flaky husband that 10% was a big deal to her.
My older sister was baptized with them, her husband was a very intelligent guy who was not religious at all, they had their issues with her joining the JW's. They divorced and in their custom she was shunned. No one was allowed to speak to her for a year.
She quit them but was already divorced. Odd, I used to spend my summer holidays between my 2 older sisters homes.  One was a  full fledged LSD taking Hippie and the other a religious freak.
Both had allot to offer a 14 years old though on a long summer holiday.
One lived a half block from a beach in Santa Barbara and the other lived on a ranch with a swimming pool and 7 retired racing horses to ride.
They both had their issues though, I refused to do drugs with one, told the other who told my mom and then I was banned from my Hippie sisters house for the next 2 summers...Instead I got to go door to door with my JW sister and ask people if they had heard the Good News or not... I learned right then and there to not share that much info again with just anyone, not family for sure.
At 17 I moved in with my "Hippie" sister and her baby girl, we lived on a street in Silverlake , right near Hollywood, believe it or not ,the street was named, "Normal Ave."! I kid you not!

They are not closing anything. The police investigated claims that they dont comply with data protection laws.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Usually the JW's are busy in the evenings or Sat.
Money, well members are asked to give 10% of their income.
One reason ( thankfully) that my mom never really went all the way with them, with 4 kids and a flaky husband that 10% was a big deal to her.

If anybody has spare 10% of their income, the money is better spent offered to Heim Pál Children Hospital, or Bethesda Hospital, than given to church.

My niece spent 1 month there in her first year. And she is still among us, so I'm giving them my 1% tax too since I've been working.

I agree, children's hospitals need allot of help .
People just don't understand unless they know a child who has medical issues.

I hope your niece is doing well now.
It is the worst thing in the world to have a sick child.
My SIL's son is only in his early 30's and was born needing a new liver or kidney, already has had 2 transplants and is always ill. I am horrible, forgot exactly what is wrong with his health but it isn't good at all.
He is a man of color, her first husband was a black man. Her son has braved it and married and has 2 kids of his own. He doesn't seem to be a person who is going to have a long life though.
My son had surgery on his eyes at 3 years old.
Then at 12 he arm broke, found he had a rare bone condition and no doctors would even set his arm. He had to go into UCLA children's ortho clinic for treatments.
Going all the time to that hospital setting was so depressing. Even talked with parents who's babies needed new hearts , that was the worst, feeling so bad for them all.
kids with no limbs at all etc.
I almost felt ashamed my son only had a bad arm after seeing the suffering of so many families.
Kids always have a positive attitude though and they recover faster then older people.
Hope your little niece has a happy life from now on.

She caught some kind of infection in her ladyparts. My sister paid a lot of attention to avoiding it in the first place, but I guess her immune system was very weak.

The worst was not even the fact that she spent a month there, but that she had an infusion needle in her head all the time. This told me her condition was very fragile.

So stressful to see a small baby or child hurt and fighting for their lives.
Hard to bond with the baby too when it is in hospital, bet your sister had to spend allot of time in the hospital visiting and doing feedings.
Just being in the environment is stressful, even visiting a person let alone your own child.
I had a more milder case of the same sort of thing when I was a toddler.
My father build me a nice big sand box in our back yard to play in. All the neighborhood cats liked it as well. He was so mad when I got a infection that he torn it apart and just left the swing set.
Thankfully we have medications that work these days.
Before they were discovered so many lives were taken for the smallest infections.
My grandmother cut her arm badly on some farm equipment in Poland back in the 1910's. She was 12. They lived a bit too far out of town for her mom to take her into the doctor so she treated her arm at home. Her dad was not there, probably out traveling selling some axle grease like the Rusyns did back then as a community.
When he got home my grandmothers arm was so infected they they had to take her in and have it taken off.
her parents divorced over it and there was a family fight over who was right and who was wrong.