Absolutely Anything Else

I suppose it does help a bit. I'm OK with irregular, improper etc but not illegal.

But what you say is not entirely true about unofficial points of entry in all countries.

Have you ever seen the videos of people crossing in an irregular manner to Canada at Roxham Road?

This is quite interesting in terms of how the Canadians say, don't cross here but don't actually do anything to stop them other than giving them some verbal advice to tell them to go back. If they are determined, they help them out with services on the Canadian side. Pretty cool. You can see more on the video (skip to 1m).

These people are claiming asylum, mainly at the time of Trump's presidency but there's still a steady trickle post-COVID. And of course, if Trump comes back in, Canada will see a spike again at Roxham Road.
-@fluffy2560

Some Americans wanting to leave the USA because of Donald used the loop hole in the law at that piont as it had few boarder controls (which was pointless as there was nothing baring any American leaving the country in any other direction as well). Beause... Why? I have no clue. Dimensional paranoia? Or because they simply did not have a US passport (stupid them). I do not know. I am not a mental health expert or an expert on telling Americans to get a passport (too few Americans have a passport -- much to their error).

I have traveled in and out of the USA more times than I can count. I see no reason to use that place but for some, sad, maybe metally ill people thinking they need needed to cross there to "avoid" Donald. Or simply beacuse the did not bother to have a passport. Seriously.... Mental illness or poor planning. Maybe no other reason. And neither reason to make hay about.

So... back on topic, I thought we were talking about standards about immigration, not silly loop holes, used by some maybe miss guided people. Seriously... Disapointed you bring up this reference. You normally do better. Here you give a straw man falacy.

And that legal loop hole has been mosly closed as of March of 2023. So, no, there will be no futhre "spike" on Roxham road. Any American not wanting to "endure" a second Donald presidency, can leave by plane, train, car, boat, bike or even walking using any valid international means of exit and entry if they have a valid passport. But there's the rub (to quote "the Bard")... Americans have a disturbingly low per capita passport ownership. Which can also explain the "Roxham Road" issue. Americans are often unprepared for international travel. Sad. So it is complicated.

Side note: Americans fearful of the elections next year, may want to apply for their passports today.... HaHa....

Side note 2: Americans fearful of a Democratic win next year and wanting to migrate to Hungary, do be aware you can not bring your arsenal of guns to Hungary. There is no Second Admendment in Hungary. And firearm ownership is tightly regulated and controllled. Just saying..... 

Hope this helps.

Some Americans wanting to leave the USA because of Donald used the loop hole in the law at that piont as it had few boarder controls (which was pointless as there was nothing baring any American leaving the country in any other direction as well). Beause... Why? I have no clue. Dimensional paranoia? Or because they simply did not have a US passport (stupid them). I do not know. I am not a mental health expert or an expert on telling Americans to get a passport (too few Americans have a passport -- much to their error).

I have traveled in and out of the USA more times than I can count. I see no reason to use that place but for some, sad, maybe metally ill people thinking they need needed to cross there to "avoid" Donald. Or simply beacuse the did not bother to have a passport. Seriously.... Mental illness or poor planning. Maybe no other reason. And neither reason to make hay about.

So... back on topic, I thought we were talking about standards about immigration, not silly loop holes, used by some maybe miss guided people. Seriously... Disapointed you bring up this reference. You normally do better. Here you give a straw man falacy.

And that legal loop hole has been mosly closed as of March of 2023. So, no, there will be no futhre "spike" on Roxham road. Any American not wanting to "endure" a second Donald presidency, can leave by plane, train, car, boat, bike or even walking using any valid international means of exit and entry if they have a valid passport. But there's the rub (to quote "the Bard")... Americans have a disturbingly low per capita passport ownership. Which can also explain the "Roxham Road" issue. Americans are often unprepared for international travel. Sad. So it is complicated.

Side note: Americans fearful of the elections next year, may want to apply for their passports today.... HaHa....

Side note 2: Americans fearful of a Democratic win next year and wanting to migrate to Hungary, do be aware you can not bring your arsenal of guns to Hungary. There is no Second Admendment in Hungary. And firearm ownership is tightly regulated and controllled. Just saying.....

Hope this helps.
-@Saint Coemgen

No straw man. Just the facts.

Anyways, you clearly did not understand who those people were. The Roxham Road people crossing to Canada were undocumented migrants in the USA, not Americans with or without passports.  The people crossing come from South American and places like Haiti or elsewhere which DT referred to as "sh*tholes" and threatened to deport them if they came into ICE custody after being undocumented in the USA. You should watch the video from CBC and look a bit harder.

If you have a link to a trusted source on closure of Roxham Road, please post it - that would be a help.

As for Trump, he's on the way to Georgia on Trump Force One. Meh, shame he was allowed bail. I hope he opens his big mouth and gets 30 days for contempt.

Budapest stadiums should bring in WizzAir to redesign their seating. They could probably cram in an extra 20,000 people.
-@zif
That is really funny.
Pack and stack them!
I've never flown on Wizz Air but I can imagine, bad enough how the big airlines treat their customers.
My deceased brother and his wife both worked for American Airlines. He for over 35 years and she for over 40 plus.
Both were mechanics.
He feel madly in love when he saw her on top of a jets wing using a rivet gun.
It's funny, really, some men see a lady in a swimsuit and others see one in overhauls and giving orders and fall madly in love.
He told me well over a decade ago that the airlines all planed on making legroom and seats smaller and smaller. He was on a crew that were reconfigurating seats to get more people on each flight.
He said it was just greed and it made him sick.
-@Marilyn Tassy

Lufthansa has kind of slim line seats which are more like deck chairs with metal frame.  Not like the "fat" seats of old. They are quite comfortable though. Their planes are very new but the flight attendants are often ancient.

Was your bro's wife called Rosie?

If she was, that's a Whole Lotta Rosie.
-@fluffy2560

I know, my SIL was/is something. She was one of the first females in that job.

Her ex-husband had a palne and she used to help him work on it. After they divorced she had to make bucks to support her children so went to school to get her airframe/ powerplant, whatever they call it license.

It wasn't easy for her when she started.

My freind was one of the first female games dealers in Vegas. The male staff were always making it hard on her because they felt threatened.

Actaully the best dealers usually are female. People don't feel challenged by them and they usually can take more verbal abuse with a smile then many ment can take.Doesn't mean we don't have our wasy to get even though!! I always smiled but I als always won. Many players who were regualars started to called me,"The Terminator" or they'd warn people by saying, this one seems nice but watch out.

It's simple, the house always wins.

They really do need to add more leg room on long haul fights.

I keep seeing videos of a 400lbs person squeezing out normal sized people frm their seats.

I have no idea how their minds work, like they don't know their big size is a problem to others?

The other day on the bus to the spa , the only seat open was next to a large heavy young dude. I sat down next to him and actually started to lean against him like a pillow, freaked him out but come one , I'm tiny and not about to half sit in a seat because he needed a few extra fries.

They are making it to where people find it more of a hassle to fly then to go anywhere.

I keep seeing videos of a 400lbs person squeezing out normal sized people frm their seats.
I have no idea how their minds work, like they don't know their big size is a problem to others?
The other day on the bus to the spa , the only seat open was next to a large heavy young dude. I sat down next to him and actually started to lean against him like a pillow, freaked him out but come one , I'm tiny and not about to half sit in a seat because he needed a few extra fries.
They are making it to where people find it more of a hassle to fly then to go anywhere.
-@Marilyn Tassy

That's the guy who always sits next to me on the plane.  I always take the aisle and that guy is in the middle seat.  Size of a small truck and shoulders to match.  You'd think the check in people would think about matching up the passengers.  Maybe they should start taking BMI measurements on check in. In a way, being massively overweight is a disability.  It's not always about food.  My bro became larger due to the cancer and anti-inflammatory drugs he was on.  People would have said keep of the pies and beer matey but he was dreadfully sick and indeed died from his cancer.

A friend of mine's wife has just had bariatric surgery to reduce weight.  It was at a private hospital in the UK.  I don't know what it cost but maybe $20K.  I suggested that it might be worth trying some of the anti-obesity medications instead - like Wegovy.  The surgery is a last resort.  But she did it anyway.  It's not been an easy recovery for her.   I think the drugs could have been an option as they don't cost anything like $20K but she'd have to have taken them for years.

ATM,I'm dealing with trying to give support yet telling it like it is to my friend in AZ.

She has twisted feet, can't really walk further then in her home about 100 steps every week or so.

She had surgeries to her ankle and a knee replacement over they years. Really sad stuff.

Every surgery made things worst.

We thought she had MS in her mid 20's when her muscles and nerves started acting up on her. We really never found out what is up with her.The docs don't seem to know.

Her first husband couldn't deal with it .

In our teen years, she is one year younger then I and a class below me in school.

She is a very pretty little red headed thing, Cute with a bubbly personality,a cover for the hard home life she had.

She was so super active that she actually got on my one friends nerves and mine at times as well.

On the track team, body surfed, went skiing and never stopped moving.

Was a real estate agent in Vegas before things got too bad physically for her.

Super cook and baker, home is always perfect, not a thing out of place ever. Just perfect except for her body.

Well ATM she has no use of 2 fingers on one hand. More nerve damage of some odd sort.

Was given the brush off by her GP then went to a hand surgeon last week.

He wants to shave down her wrist bone and do some surgery on her fingers.

She would do it but how can she take care of herself with no use of her feet and one hand for at least 6 weeks? Plus with her history of botched operations.. it's not easy.

Her husband is overwhelmed as it is, he is 74 and just recovered from cancer.

I mentioned she might have to go into rehab, I know that's blowing her mind.

I also suggested she look into an agent who has a home health care service.

Or hire some strong person to stay with them for 6 weeks and carry her to the bathroom.

Or even still to move back temp. to Vegas where a combo of all these things could be done while they rent a monthly room close to everything.

Right now they live in the high desert about a good hour from a small city which has no hand surgeons .

No idea why 2 old ill people would move out to the boonies on their own but this is the result of making a silly choice.

I knew a UK person who had bariatric surgery. I thought that was free with the NHS?

Me. I  always buy an aisle seat. My husband sometimes buys one across from me or sits next to me. I figure we can swtich seats if someone is sitting next to him and he needs a break.

Left things to chance a couple times and it never works out, best to buy and forget it, more peace of mind.

I'd rather have my leg hit by the cart then sit in the middle on a long haul. Done that before, no thanks!

I sometimes have the rotten luck of sitting near a mansplaying dude. I just "accidentally" put my foot down on theirs until they get the message...After all I have long legs and need my own room.

My poor son, he is 6'3" tall and the normal leg room is too short for him. Lucky he is slim or it wouldn't work at all. His wife is super tiny so he can always take over her side a bit.

Personally I wouldn't mind if they charged a tiny bit more for a seat and gave us all more room.

Something between business and a fish tank would be nice.

One of my friends flies only first class, that's Ok for her since she never goes overseas and flies maybe once ever 30 years.

We have been wanting to take a nice trip but just thinking of flying is a real turn off.

The days of me knocking myself out cold on a flight are long gone.

I suppose one can get a script for xanax?

Oh, I think the check-in clerks know exactly what they're doing when they put you next to a Sherman tank.

I also think they have to mark out the over-size passengers on the manifesr so the flight attendants can be ready with the seat belt extenders.

Oh, I think the check-in clerks know exactly what they're doing when they put you next to a Sherman tank.
I also think they have to mark out the over-size passengers on the manifest so the flight attendants can be ready with the seat belt extenders.
-@zif

I'm not sure about that.  If I turn up un-checked-in (rarely), I always try to be nice to the check in agent. You never know. But the vast majority must be checking in online.  I do look at the online seat maps when checking in online but you don't know who is going to fill in the gaps later on. Could be a wrestler or Viking. I also try a bit of a game to get a low sequence number (i.e. first to check in).

So long as I avoid the middle seat and in a three seat row, the window seat, it's usually OK. If I'm in an empty row and in the aisle seat, when it's boarding complete, I move to the window. Then I can rest my head to get some sleep and I can have some entertainment if there is something worth looking at.  There is a danger someone else will grab my aisle seat. On short flights, I'm OK with that but if it's long, then I'd probably keep my original aisle seat so I can get up and visit the loo or just walk about a bit.

p.s. this choice issue reminds me of the urinal problem or the stall problem. Not sure if there's one for plane seats.

If you have a link to a trusted source on closure of Roxham Road, please post it - that would be a help.

-@fluffy2560

Not sure what source you would trust versus what I would trust. So can rather suggest a trivial amount of self research.

Type into your favorite search engine:

2023: STCA renegotiation

And see what results you get. For me, cbc.ca is the first result i get when I do this, which confirms this Roxham Road loophope was closed (which is what I said). Thus enforcing assylum to be made at officially designated points of entry (Roxham Road not an official entry point then or now -- it was a weird loop hole in the law, much like the Dutch Sandwich, Double Irish and now the new Single Malt taxation avoidance schemes exploit legal loopholes to try to avoid taxation). Maybe other sites you prefer say otherwise.... And again, there is the rub. Since I have no clue what you authorize as trusted.

Anyways, you clearly did not understand who those people were.

I guess you did not understand I was being a bit comical and injecting a bit of political satire?

Fully my error. I was too subtle. My humor is from another era, where people were less idelogically bifurcated, and could see the humor in the forest.

Hope this helps.

If you have a link to a trusted source on closure of Roxham Road, please post it - that would be a help.
-@fluffy2560

Not sure what source you would trust versus what I would trust. So can rather suggest a trivial amount of self research.

Type into your favorite search engine:

2023: STCA renegotiation

And see what results you get. For me, cbc.ca is the first result i get when I do this, which confirms this Roxham Road loophope was closed (which is what I said). Thus enforcing assylum to be made at officially designated points of entry (Roxham Road not an official entry point then or now -- it was a weird loop hole in the law, much like the Dutch Sandwich, Double Irish and now the new Single Malt taxation avoidance schemes exploit legal loopholes to try to avoid taxation). Maybe other sites you prefer say otherwise.... And again, there is the rub. Since I have no clue what you authorize as trusted.





Anyways, you clearly did not understand who those people were.


I guess you did not understand I was being a bit comical and injecting a bit of political satire?

Fully my error. I was too subtle. My humor is from another era, where people were less idelogically bifurcated, and could see the humor in the forest.

Hope this helps.
-@Saint Coemgen

No, doesn't help much.

I don't know you  so I have no idea if  you're trying to be funny or not. We're also of a different culture so we will see thing differently sometimes.   Two countries separated by a common language - that kind of thing.  And I like your Celtic cross icon.

CBC is fine as source.  I would mostly trust any Western European public broadcaster/publisher that's responsible like the BBC and Euronews or The Economist.  Stateside, obviously I wouldn't believe Fox News given it's weirdly variable relations with Trump or indeed OV. CNN not too sure about.  Daily Mail, no way.

I did look up Roxham Road STCA and it's not closed as such. It just means that Canada can deport those with unfounded asylum claims back to the USA within 14 days.  And likewise USA can do the same (mainly Mexicans it seems).  Canada also created a kind of quota of 15,000 for asylum claims, presumably to allow irregular migration at Roxham Road.  So I think it still works.  And there are still other places to cross. 

Dutch sandwich etc are tax structures.  They aren't loopholes.  They are legal in the appropriate jurisdictions.  And nothing to do with migration. 

OK, so we at least established that "illegal" migrants do not exist.

Depending on country, one has to have the correct visa to travel to get on a plane. If the person cannot get a visa, then what are they to do? Notwithstanding fake documentation not detectable by airlines (and most countries use API) obviously travel by whatever means is necessary to reach their intended destination. At that point, they may be undocumented or irregular.

They CAN declare themselves as refugees anywhere they please. If their claim in rejected, they may be deported. BUT that's only after their status is established/verified.

Nowhere in this process are they ever illegal migrants. There is no such thing as an illegal migrant.
-@fluffy2560
Unfortunately we have not established that.

A migrant that doesn't declare that he is a refugee can be deported or denied access to any country. If he anyways enters he is an illegal migrant. If he declares to an immigration official that he is a refugee then this claim has to be verified. While this verification process is underway he has practically no rights under the Refugee Convention. A question would be whether a migrants that doesn't disclose his country of citizenship or residence can ever be a refugee.

Isn't it interesting that "pushbacks" are possibe at airports, but (it appears) not at land borders or at ports?
-@nz7521137

The scale at airports is altogether of a different magnitude. And of course, unless you're flying Afghan Airlines (look it up), it's hard to actually bring a plane load of refugees/asylum seekers directly to an airport. It has happened, notably at London Stansted (where all hijackings go).

Anyway, regardless of what you might say, I think we have established there is no such thing as an illegal migrant. It's not defined.

Unless I'm living in a parallel universe, no-one in a Western country is guilty before they are innocent. That doesn't make them illegal as that would imply they did something which was not allowed under the law. Being undocumented is not illegal under the convention. Not everyone can be documented. Asking for a passport in some countries could lead to a death sentence.

Even on remand, people are not guilty. They are just held pending investigation. Apart from deranged countries like Hungary, crossing a border with a view to seeking asylum or to claim refugee status is not illegal. It never has been.

BTW, if you are on remand, you can usually wear your own clothes, not prison garb. And you have rights to legal representation as is fundamental - even in dysfunctional countries like the USA. There has been no trial and no-one has been found guilty of anything. Authorities cannot hold people forever (check writ of habeus corpus) without charging them with something and due process taking place. For the most part, only at the end of a trial and a verdict reached can anyone be found guilty of something.
-@fluffy2560

Probably you can tell what would happen in your country in the same case:

In many countries that is considered an illegal entry (lack of due process) if a citizen returning to that country without the stamp (and border control) from a country where needs a passport/ stamp.

Anyone who is not a citizen and lack of such/ any official paperwork (can include visa, etc) and tries to enter a country without that process that is also illegal, and usually not ends just with a moderate fine and some questions.

As for Hungary:

In the 90's there were still (the real) border guard.

Their default order were: shoot first, reload, check out. That was the way as the southern border of Hungary were secured then. Sure, there was many fine dinner from the fallen boars/ other animals which get several bullets - every week a few occasion.

Sure: anyone who tried to cross the border illegaly and there was "some moövement in the bushes" also get bullets.

The present so called "border guard" is a joke, as does the police/ army presence there - it is an ineffective act.

Probably you can tell what would happen in your country in the same case:
In many countries that is considered an illegal entry (lack of due process) if a citizen returning to that country without the stamp (and border control) from a country where needs a passport/ stamp.

Anyone who is not a citizen and lack of such/ any official paperwork (can include visa, etc) and tries to enter a country without that process that is also illegal, and usually not ends just with a moderate fine and some questions.

As for Hungary:
In the 90's there were still (the real) border guard.
Their default order were: shoot first, reload, check out. That was the way as the southern border of Hungary were secured then. Sure, there was many fine dinner from the fallen boars/ other animals which get several bullets - every week a few occasion.
Sure: anyone who tried to cross the border illegaly and there was "some moövement in the bushes" also get bullets.

The present so called "border guard" is a joke, as does the police/ army presence there - it is an ineffective act.
-@sjbabilon5

I would call them irregular or or incorrectly documented but not illegal. As I've said before it's not a crime to cross a border without paperwork if seeking asylum or refugee status.

Since Brexit, plenty of UK people don't get their passports stamped or do get them stamped unnecessarily when they don't need it. It's a muddle that even many dimwitted McJob border guards do not understand. Hungary is particularly bad at it. Other places like Germany, Austria or Poland are (now) far more professional.  I've avoided German airports as transit places for a few years but they seem to have got the memo now. But they are still generally unpleasant and surly people.

I don't think anyone wants nostalgia for communist border tactics. I've been through those kind of militarised borders (including through the DDR/Berlin etc) and there wasn't much doubt in anyone's mind that the DDR guards shooting at escapees were murderers.

Besides that, as of now, Hungary is signed to the various conventions so shooting first and asking questions after is going to end up with guards doing jail time. And quite rightly so.  There's an obligation to help people if they make it into the territory. It's same as the Law of the Sea. There's an obligation to help if people are in trouble wherever they are. Shooting over the border is going to end up with military confrontation. Most of this border stuff is just political anyway - refugees/migrants don't get a vote. It's a wedge issue.

"There's an obligation to help if people are in trouble wherever they are."

But that's the issue.  Syrians etc who are crossing from Serbia etc aren't in trouble.

"There's an obligation to help if people are in trouble wherever they are."
But that's the issue. Syrians etc who are crossing from Serbia etc aren't in trouble.
-@zif

How do we know?

What a mess for UK air travel, all because a French Airline inputted a faulty air plan in. Watching the news today, why was there no backup plan?

It should be interesting to hear what the Transport Secretary has to say as he doing the rounds on Radio and TV this morning.

What we saw yesterday was the backup plan; at least that was what the guy from NATS just said on the radio a few minutes ago.  There was an unidentifiable error in the network; because it couldn't be identified they had no option but to revert to using pieces of paper and replanning.  It only affected flights into and out of the UK; overflying traffic was not affected.  They did find the error eventually which enabled them to reset the system with confidence that the same error would not recur.  Leeds Bradford re-opened mid-afternoon, but of course, the planes were all in the wrong place by then, hence the ensuing chaos.

What we saw yesterday was the backup plan; at least that was what the guy from NATS just said on the radio a few minutes ago. There was an unidentifiable error in the network; because it couldn't be identified they had no option but to revert to using pieces of paper and replanning. It only affected flights into and out of the UK; overflying traffic was not affected. They did find the error eventually which enabled them to reset the system with confidence that the same error would not recur. Leeds Bradford re-opened mid-afternoon, but of course, the planes were all in the wrong place by then, hence the ensuing chaos.
-@Cynic

Cardiff is also open, but a lot more are still having issues.

https://news.sky.com/story/air-traffic-control-faults-on-this-scale-havent-been-seen-for-a-decade-transport-secretary-says-12950001

@SimCityAT

Could you give support for your comment that it was a French plan that caused the disruption?

You seem to know more than the British Air Traffic Controllers themselves.

The National Air Traffic Services said initial investigations showed that the problem “relates to some of the flight data we received." It gave no specific information on what caused the trouble.

@SimCityAT
Could you give support for your comment that it was a French plan that caused the disruption?
You seem to know more than the British Air Traffic Controllers themselves.
The National Air Traffic Services said initial investigations showed that the problem “relates to some of the flight data we received." It gave no specific information on what caused the trouble.
-@Vicces1

It was in the news yesterday

https://news.sky.com/story/air-traffic-control-latest-britons-stuck-on-tarmac-abroad-amid-warning-disruption-could-last-into-the-week-12949643?fbclid=IwAR1hPrdm97eGh9JYvCBM1xqzeqN35qk5D2ls-XmjQQPXhmlkCT-JxgVftLw

I can give some first hand experience from yesterday (Tuesday 29 August 2023).

I was on the plane from Frankfurt to Gatwick North Terminal (Lufthansa) and there were no problems at all. The plane was on time, there were no queues at passports although bags a bit slow.  I was out of the airport and into the train station in 20m.  The place was more or less completely empty.

NATS cannot be very robust that a bad file could bring it all down or halt processing to such an important system. It's basic IT to check input for validity but I can also understand the design - just stop if input failed.  Idea is to stop further damage - same as the BSOD (Blue Screen of Death) on your PC.

I remember the time (mid-80s) before "modern" NATS as I was living about 3km from the old ATC HQ at West Drayton. The entire thing was horribly antiquated. It was already 40 years old with many manual operations.  "Modern NATS" is like science-fiction compared to the old system. But even that is getting too old and needs a revamp. 

@SimCityAT
Could you give support for your comment that it was a French plan that caused the disruption?
You seem to know more than the British Air Traffic Controllers themselves.
The National Air Traffic Services said initial investigations showed that the problem “relates to some of the flight data we received." It gave no specific information on what caused the trouble.
-@Vicces1

It was in the news yesterday

https://news.sky.com/story/air-traffic-control-latest-britons-stuck-on-tarmac-abroad-amid-warning-disruption-could-last-into-the-week-12949643?fbclid=IwAR1hPrdm97eGh9JYvCBM1xqzeqN35qk5D2ls-XmjQQPXhmlkCT-JxgVftLw
-@SimCityAT

I can see plenty of law suits over this.   

Airlines suing NATS to recover compensation for themselves and NATS suing the alleged French perps.

And the passenger in there somewhere.

I suspect that any legal redress will depend on the contractual relationship between NATS and its customers.

The head of NATS was just on TV with his latest update; takeaway points seem to be that the Operating system and its backup both failed over the same piece of data (there was no identification as to whose data it was), press speculation that it was caused by a French flight plan is just that, speculation. NATS was down for 2 hours while they sorted it out. The commensurate chaos is simply because by then, the aircraft and crews were either in the wrong place, out of crew duty hours, or both. The fact it happened on the busiest day of the year as far as air travel was concerned is a contributory factor as it meant there was little to nil capacity, which is still causing issues today. Having stood in front of 400 fed-up passengers who really didn't care why the 2 aircraft I was looking after were parked outside apparently doing nothing, I can sympathise both with the operators and the passengers.

It reminds me of my old physics teacher many years ago where he told us that electrical systems are always subject to random failure, but never random repair. Perhaps the fact that it has run for 10 years without a similar incident lulled us all into a false sense of security and a cost-conscious airline business saw no benefits in having aircraft and crews on standby for such an event.

I suspect that any legal redress will depend on the contractual relationship between NATS and its customers.
The head of NATS was just on TV with his latest update; takeaway points seem to be that the Operating system and its backup both failed over the same piece of data (there was no identification as to whose data it was), press speculation that it was caused by a French flight plan is just that, speculation. NATS was down for 2 hours while they sorted it out. The commensurate chaos is simply because by then, the aircraft and crews were either in the wrong place, out of crew duty hours, or both. The fact it happened on the busiest day of the year as far as air travel was concerned is a contributory factor as it meant there was little to nil capacity, which is still causing issues today. Having stood in front of 400 fed-up passengers who really didn't care why the 2 aircraft I was looking after were parked outside apparently doing nothing, I can sympathise both with the operators and the passengers.

It reminds me of my old physics teacher many years ago where he told us that electrical systems are always subject to random failure, but never random repair. Perhaps the fact that it has run for 10 years without a similar incident lulled us all into a false sense of security and a cost-conscious airline business saw no benefits in having aircraft and crews on standby for such an event.
-@Cynic

I expect NATS has a contract that favours them and as a monopoly, nothing that can be done about that for individual airlines. The legal fall out will go on years.  UK airspace is very complicated and there's a lot of traffic . Probably the technological outcome will be NATS 2.0 or by the time it arrives 3.0.  We used to joke about the latest IT solutions tag line as being "yesterday's technology tomorrow". 

Random repair could be called maintenance. My car needs its oil changing. These days I judge by looking at the mileage and the oil itself. To change it is possibly random repair.

I do remember an interesting academic discussion I was in about 4 engined planes vs 2 engined planes. It was a thought experiment. One argument was 4 engined planes were more prone to failure due to the increased number of moving parts. And 2 engine planes were less prone. I don't remember the formal outcome but the scenario was that individually the engines had no higher incidence of failure irrelevant to the aircraft it was installed in (ok, not entirely). But as a whole, an engine failure could be fatal to the aircraft as a whole. Of course, that's all been mitigated with multi-engined planes and cautious operations on a single engine. But the same arguments would work over NATS. They need more "engines" in case of a single point failures.

Workwise, I'm always thinking about what happens in failure modes. I've tried to get my kids they always need a Plan B or a Plan C or even D for whatever they are doing.  Usually it's about travel. But I am not sure if it just makes them fearful of things that might happen as they have less experience of judging probabilities (however small).

Since Brexit, plenty of UK people don't get their passports stamped or do get them stamped unnecessarily when they don't need it. It's a muddle that even many dimwitted McJob border guards do not understand. Hungary is particularly bad at it. Other places like Germany, Austria or Poland are (now) far more professional. I've avoided German airports as transit places for a few years but they seem to have got the memo now. But they are still generally unpleasant and surly people.

I don't think anyone wants nostalgia for communist border tactics. I've been through those kind of militarised borders (including through the DDR/Berlin etc) and there wasn't much doubt in anyone's mind that the DDR guards shooting at escapees were murderers.

Besides that, as of now, Hungary is signed to the various conventions so shooting first and asking questions after is going to end up with guards doing jail time. And quite rightly so. There's an obligation to help people if they make it into the territory. It's same as the Law of the Sea. There's an obligation to help if people are in trouble wherever they are. Shooting over the border is going to end up with military confrontation. Most of this border stuff is just political anyway - refugees/migrants don't get a vote. It's a wedge issue.
-@fluffy2560

Still not clear what would be the official rule since Brexit.

Is it certain treaties with some country (where no need for stamp), or there is a legal framework with EU?

For example Hungarian citizens able to travel to Serbia and Macedonbia with just ID (the new plastic one with chip which stores the fingerprint), no passport (so no stamp) needed. That is a treaty between the countries.

I was fine with the militarised borders.

Our border guards (or better to call them rangers?) were a top grade elite unit, far better than the average military, or probably even better than the spec ops units at the military. Their duty did not ended with just secure the "green border" - where no official crossing points, but also they were obligatred to counter any sorts of military treat, or in case an invasion pass trought them gone into guerilla warfare.

During the Balcan wars they were constantly on full alert.

Anyway even before 2022 the border of Ukraine was the same at Csap (Chop): even at the official crossing/ train station there always were 50-100 guard troops near the lighly armed classical border authority/ border control units.

In recent years I was not on the Polish borders, but based on various informations they keep up a quite tight and heavy armed security on the long line towards Ukraine/ Belarus.

It's just NWO letting us know who is in control.

The fear factror is how they control us pee-ons.

It's never going to get better, only worst.

No fear however , sooner or later it's going to blow up in their faces.

If let's say people refused to travel for a min. of 6 months they would change their tune.

On another topic today we cancelled our bank account after doing "funny business "with this bank for around 15 years...

People have to draw the line when the service isn't working for them.

Sometimes we need to stand up for our rights.

We are getting a bit tired though of being the ,"Lone Ranger".

I would suggest that these travel delays were not caused by the input error (French or not) and instead caused by a system that somehow could not handle simple bad data. Not only the initial error, but also the 2ndary system failed. Per the Guardian article below, the system often receives bad data.

Bad data happens all the time. The system should throw it out and/or reject the data coming in.

Imagine if simple fat-finger errors could bring down entire governmental, utility, and/or business websites!! Anyone could be a hacker, just type your PIN code with a symbol and bring the whole ATM world crashing down!

What was the ‘technical failure'?

The automatic flight planning system used by Nats, the company that provides national air traffic control services in the UK, was out of action for several hours on Monday. Airspace was not closed, but the number of planes in the sky was severely restricted while the automated system was down.

What caused it to fail?

Nats says that the failure was triggered by a single piece of data in a flight plan that was wrongly input to its system by an unnamed airline.

What are flight plans and how are they filed?

Flight plans in effect are a plane's timing and chosen route, and for most regular short-haul flights they are completely standardised. An airline's flight operations team files them electronically to air traffic controllers well before takeoff, and pilots are responsible for checking them and updating them if necessary.

Does Nats not have a backup system?

Yes it does. According to its chief executive, Martin Rolfe, “several layers of backup” exist, but apparently the dodgy data caused the secondary automatic processing system to be suspended “to ensure that no incorrect safety-related information could be presented to an air traffic controller or impact the rest of the air traffic system”.

How could just one faulty flight plan cause this?

Nats has not really explained this yet. Willie Walsh, the director general of the global airlines body, Iata, said it was “staggering” that inputting a single flight plan incorrectly could knock the whole system over. Pilots say plans can frequently be rejected.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/30/uk-air-traffic-control-failure-what-caused-it-and-who-will-have-to-pay

BTW - I remember a large air traffic system in the US being knocked out for a few hours several months ago due to an IT worker using the wrong initiation file on a system.

I also remember things like the American military nuclear arsenal was running on some of the oldest software still existent. It was actually using 8" floppy disks up until 2019!!

Air Traffic Control is also running really old software and enforcing rules that haven't been relevant or efficient in decades.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/us/n … disks.html

The report said that the Strategic Automated Command and Control System ran on an IBM Series/1 computer — a piece of hardware that dates to the 1970s — and used eight-inch floppy disks to manage weapons like intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft.

The report warned that the Pentagon was one of the several government agencies whose computer systems relied on “outdated software languages and hardware parts that are unsupported,” some of which were “at least 50 years old.”

“Introduced in the 1970s, the eight-inch floppy disk is a disk-based storage medium that holds 80 kilobytes of data,” it said in its report.

Although some of you may be too young to remember floppy disks...

BTW - I remember a large air traffic system in the US being knocked out for a few hours several months ago due to an IT worker using the wrong initiation file on a system.
I also remember things like the American military nuclear arsenal was running on some of the oldest software still existent. It was actually using 8" floppy disks up until 2019!!
Air Traffic Control is also running really old software and enforcing rules that haven't been relevant or efficient in decades.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/us/n … disks.html

The report said that the Strategic Automated Command and Control System ran on an IBM Series/1 computer — a piece of hardware that dates to the 1970s — and used eight-inch floppy disks to manage weapons like intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft.

The report warned that the Pentagon was one of the several government agencies whose computer systems relied on “outdated software languages and hardware parts that are unsupported,” some of which were “at least 50 years old.”

“Introduced in the 1970s, the eight-inch floppy disk is a disk-based storage medium that holds 80 kilobytes of data,” it said in its report.

Although some of you may be too young to remember floppy disks...
-@Vicces1

Old, outdated, unsupported.

There is a phrase: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

What was reliable for decades probably does something well.

As for me I do use pretty much old stuff. Sometimes there is a constantly updated program and I use a version which is some 11-12 years older than the recent one - off course deliberately. Or old hardware where certain risks cannot occur, like a phone which unable to have internet connection, or other wireless.

So that is the same: try to crack a 8 inch floppy, in an unknown programming lang. and long forgotten protection, which on have no data avaiable.

Near the various benefits such mentality also can lead to funny events, like when recently I get some nice mail with quite funny claims as how they get various datas from me and where should I pay, or else. But I am sure that can work on many, because for average folks such statements can be possible (like 90% +uses claimed services, devices, etc...).

Assuming it's a flight plan that caused the error; these things are typically created by the aircraft captain (navigators are long gone), normally using an airline app (I just checked and found 17 different types) on the flight deck; this is then either transmitted back to the Airline headquarters or to local flight operations for submission to the "system".  They use literally many thousands of different codes to identify the airport and intended route.  My involvement was many years ago when the world still used the old SWORD flight planning system, but it was still possible to get them back within 30 minutes; we still got user errors transposing O and 0, or 1 and l, people using the space bar to move the text into the middle of a column because they thought it looked nice.  Then when you get adjacent systems, one of which is contracted differently from the other, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

It does seem that Hungary is importing workers.

Yesterday at the bank a women brought in a group of around 10 men from the Phillipines to open up bank accounts.

All fine, that was the last time we will go to that bank.We decided to close our account with them after about 15 years.

Just trying to escape the matrix.

Got sick of their bad customer service.

Their interest rates were terrible anyways.

I suppose we will be forced sooner or later to find another bank.

It sort of feels nice though to cut ties with these rip off banks.

It does seem that Hungary is importing workers.
Yesterday at the bank a women brought in a group of around 10 men from the Phillipines to open up bank accounts.
All fine, that was the last time we will go to that bank.We decided to close our account with them after about 15 years.
Just trying to escape the matrix.
Got sick of their bad customer service.
Their interest rates were terrible anyways.
I suppose we will be forced sooner or later to find another bank.
It sort of feels nice though to cut ties with these rip off banks.
-@Marilyn Tassy

Sure Hungary imports many for years.

Phillipines often in the transport industry, especially shipping.

Yet I have no idea why it is worth more to have professionals from there, than to set up a training centre and train sailors, captains, bus-boat drivers, etc..

New constructions for the facilities should offer work, orders for local companies, education costs carry some tax, and voila: local professionals.

Banks: agree.

Sadly in many cases that is a must have for most of the workers and businesses.

Before the EU made my bank bankrupt I did paid some 10% of the ammount what  costs I have since.

While this offers a whopping 0.1% ! interest on deposits, and 19 - 40% interest on loans.

BTW - I remember a large air traffic system in the US being knocked out for a few hours several months ago due to an IT worker using the wrong initiation file on a system.
I also remember things like the American military nuclear arsenal was running on some of the oldest software still existent. It was actually using 8" floppy disks up until 2019!!
Air Traffic Control is also running really old software and enforcing rules that haven't been relevant or efficient in decades.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/us/n … disks.html

The report said that the Strategic Automated Command and Control System ran on an IBM Series/1 computer — a piece of hardware that dates to the 1970s — and used eight-inch floppy disks to manage weapons like intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft.

The report warned that the Pentagon was one of the several government agencies whose computer systems relied on “outdated software languages and hardware parts that are unsupported,” some of which were “at least 50 years old.”

“Introduced in the 1970s, the eight-inch floppy disk is a disk-based storage medium that holds 80 kilobytes of data,” it said in its report.

Although some of you may be too young to remember floppy disks...
-@Vicces1

I don't remember the IBM  S/1 but I do remember the IBM 360.  All IBM is weird stuff.  Seems almost laughable to me now people thought that was normal.  Lots of innovation but another world.

Unfortunately I remember 8" floppy disks .  And big tapes. I've got a box of those still but how to read them?!   And I remember removable disk packs with multiple platters.  Looked like the plastic cover you'd put on a cake selection to keep the flies away. 

Kind of interesting that even CDs/DVDs are old hat now.

Only this week I  was just configuring a 2TB memory stick in a USB enclosure to use as a temporary backup device for my laptop.  It's fantastically fast and cheap as chips per GB of storage.  That's many 1000s of those 8" floppies and it fits in your pocket.  2TB is probably enough to get 1800 hi-res movies on.

It does seem that Hungary is importing workers.
Yesterday at the bank a women brought in a group of around 10 men from the Phillipines to open up bank accounts.
All fine, that was the last time we will go to that bank.We decided to close our account with them after about 15 years.
Just trying to escape the matrix.
Got sick of their bad customer service.
Their interest rates were terrible anyways.
I suppose we will be forced sooner or later to find another bank.
It sort of feels nice though to cut ties with these rip off banks.
-@Marilyn Tassy

Sure Hungary imports many for years.
Phillipines often in the transport industry, especially shipping.
Yet I have no idea why it is worth more to have professionals from there, than to set up a training centre and train sailors, captains, bus-boat drivers, etc..
New constructions for the facilities should offer work, orders for local companies, education costs carry some tax, and voila: local professionals.

Banks: agree.
Sadly in many cases that is a must have for most of the workers and businesses.
Before the EU made my bank bankrupt I did paid some 10% of the amount what costs I have since.
While this offers a whopping 0.1% ! interest on deposits, and 19 - 40% interest on loans.
-@sjbabilon5

It's always been the case that once a local is trained up, they will go elsewhere for higher wages, sometimes abroad. 

I often meet Filipino people working in healthcare.  Mainly they move around to send money home.   I think it's entirely up to them to decide where they want to go.  People are upwardly mobile and  good for them.

I used to think trying to retain people was an absolute necessity but actually now  I think this is just part of the public sector role in society.   It happens all the time.  Join the military or civil service, get skills, training, personal development, do your time there, then transfer skills to the private sector when public service is over.   It contributes eventually.

BTW - I remember a large air traffic system in the US being knocked out for a few hours several months ago due to an IT worker using the wrong initiation file on a system.
I also remember things like the American military nuclear arsenal was running on some of the oldest software still existent. It was actually using 8" floppy disks up until 2019!!
Air Traffic Control is also running really old software and enforcing rules that haven't been relevant or efficient in decades.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/us/n … disks.html

The report said that the Strategic Automated Command and Control System ran on an IBM Series/1 computer — a piece of hardware that dates to the 1970s — and used eight-inch floppy disks to manage weapons like intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft.

The report warned that the Pentagon was one of the several government agencies whose computer systems relied on “outdated software languages and hardware parts that are unsupported,” some of which were “at least 50 years old.”

“Introduced in the 1970s, the eight-inch floppy disk is a disk-based storage medium that holds 80 kilobytes of data,” it said in its report.

Although some of you may be too young to remember floppy disks...
-@Vicces1


Old, outdated, unsupported.
There is a phrase: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
What was reliable for decades probably does something well.

As for me I do use pretty much old stuff. Sometimes there is a constantly updated program and I use a version which is some 11-12 years older than the recent one - off course deliberately. Or old hardware where certain risks cannot occur, like a phone which unable to have internet connection, or other wireless.
So that is the same: try to crack a 8 inch floppy, in an unknown programming lang. and long forgotten protection, which on have no data avaiable.

Near the various benefits such mentality also can lead to funny events, like when recently I get some nice mail with quite funny claims as how they get various datas from me and where should I pay, or else. But I am sure that can work on many, because for average folks such statements can be possible (like 90% +uses claimed services, devices, etc...).
-@sjbabilon5

"Ain't broke, don't fix it" doesn't work much these days.

The spec on PCs is changing all the time.  MS is particularly bad for this on its changes in Windows 11 from Windows 10.  Their changes have rendered many PCs obsolete for some people. Nothing wrong with the machine itself, MS has just made them less supportable.  Really very annoying as the machine will be scrap metal soon enough.  I think MS and the PC manufacturers are in some kind of cartel.  Same with Android and the phone companies.   The rise of these "stores" to access software or features is particularly annoying.  It's the move to subscriptions which is really worrying.

I also get those e-mails sometimes saying they have something on me or they have free gifts from a US chain store.   Yeah right. I feel sorry that people fall for it.   

It's always been the case that once a local is trained up, they will go elsewhere for higher wages, sometimes abroad.

-@fluffy2560

They are all in Austria

It's always been the case that once a local is trained up, they will go elsewhere for higher wages, sometimes abroad.

-@fluffy2560

They are all in Austria
-@SimCityAT

Yes, they are!

Mrs F told me there was some statistic in the news like now there are 120K HU citizens in AT.   

And it's increasing by hundreds if not thousands a month.

It's a brain drain I'm afraid to say.  And it's obvious why!

@fluffy2560

My neighbors moved to Austria. It's a real thing.

Previously, before Brexit, that was a popular destination and I know 4 Hungarians living in Scotland for the past 6+ years.

@fluffy2560
My neighbors moved to Austria. It's a real thing.
Previously, before Brexit, that was a popular destination and I know 4 Hungarians living in Scotland for the past 6+ years.
-@Vicces1

Really not a surprise about AT.  Much more money and home on the doorstep.  It's cheaper too.  We were in an AT supermarket and it was definitely cheaper. 

I know some HU people in the UK.  One of them became a British citizen recently.  I was really pleased for them.  Of course it hardly makes any difference for them day to day.  They retain their EU rights and can travel backwards and forwards no problem and with no additional paperwork.  Not the same for us British non-EU single nationality untermensch.

It does seem that Hungary is importing workers.
Yesterday at the bank a women brought in a group of around 10 men from the Phillipines to open up bank accounts.
All fine, that was the last time we will go to that bank.We decided to close our account with them after about 15 years.
Just trying to escape the matrix.
Got sick of their bad customer service.
Their interest rates were terrible anyways.
I suppose we will be forced sooner or later to find another bank.
It sort of feels nice though to cut ties with these rip off banks.
-@Marilyn Tassy

Sure Hungary imports many for years.
Phillipines often in the transport industry, especially shipping.
Yet I have no idea why it is worth more to have professionals from there, than to set up a training centre and train sailors, captains, bus-boat drivers, etc..
New constructions for the facilities should offer work, orders for local companies, education costs carry some tax, and voila: local professionals.

Banks: agree.
Sadly in many cases that is a must have for most of the workers and businesses.
Before the EU made my bank bankrupt I did paid some 10% of the amount what costs I have since.
While this offers a whopping 0.1% ! interest on deposits, and 19 - 40% interest on loans.
-@sjbabilon5

It's always been the case that once a local is trained up, they will go elsewhere for higher wages, sometimes abroad.

I often meet Filipino people working in healthcare. Mainly they move around to send money home.  I think it's entirely up to them to decide where they want to go. People are upwardly mobile and good for them.

I used to think trying to retain people was an absolute necessity but actually now I think this is just part of the public sector role in society.  It happens all the time. Join the military or civil service, get skills, training, personal development, do your time there, then transfer skills to the private sector when public service is over.  It contributes eventually.
-@fluffy2560

Wages are not all.

As for me one of the most important contributor: who do you work with? +What are the regulations?

At here in my main worksplace I barely have proper subordinates, even with changes in this year as we finaly have someone to sort out cv-s/ do interviews who anno was in the Police Officer College/ Zrínyi Mil. Academy but even he can choose from the ones who actually apply.

So I actually think about to uptake a contract (With a coup in every 5 minutes nowdays in Africa services are in demand.) - not predominantly for the 10-15X wage, but for the better comrades/ organisation structure. Anno even here was a few all right PSC, but since the mental health pandemic I am ok with often as low as half dozen diplomatic events per year.

As for healthcare: that is new info for me - but off course when possible I do avoid healthcare. Just find out that is my GP is retired in january. Well sure she was closer to 80 than 70, but still it is a loss, she was old school, not the average which would have a proper place on the street lamps/ trees.

In my experience doctors from India, China, Cuba, some Arabic are fine, as well dentists from Vietnam and Israel, but with Filipino no notable experiences (less than 10 in lifetime).

I think 5 years ago we hired Ukraine based company for our terracce repair, VERY good result and a very good price. Nothing to complain.

Within Hungary it is possible to get service (believe it or not)

I think we paid EUR 2500 but the result was EXCELLENT (of course we had to pay for the stones etc)