Absolutely Anything Else

You say kicking Viktor out is acceptable, even by a state guilty of everything the US has done - Do you really support that?        -@Fred

It's a non sequitur. One doesn't follow the other.

US doesn't matter much in this equation as Hungary is inconsequential to superpowers other than Putin. He sees him as a useful idiot, a role he's fulfilling and seemingly oblivious to.

Almost all the EU wants him gone as he's blocking stuff all the time. Personally I'm quite happy to seem him brought down regardless of who actually does it.  Just out, anyone but him.

    You say kicking Viktor out is acceptable, even by a state guilty of everything the US has done - Do you really support that?        -@Fred

It's a non sequitur. One doesn't follow the other.

US doesn't matter much in this equation as Hungary is inconsequential to superpowers other than Putin. He she's him as a useful idiot, a role he's fulfilling and seemingly oblivious to.

Almost all the EU wants him gone as he's blocking stuff all the time. Personally I'm quite happy to seem him brought down regardless of who actually does it.  Just out, anyone but him.
   

    -@fluffy2560

You support removing him

The foreign power trying to do so has removed a number of governments and engaged in mass terrorism on many occasions but you say you would support them.

You claim to be a fan of democracy, but support actions by a country that's trying to remove Indonesia's democratically elected new leader.

If Viktor is nothing to anyone but Russia, why is the US trying to kick him out?

So, do you support democracy, or support the major agent against it in today's world?

Almost all the EU wants him gone as he's blocking stuff all the time. Personally I'm quite happy to seem him brought down regardless of who actually does it.  Just out, anyone but him.        -@fluffy2560

Perhaps this list will help you to decide

Abacha, General Sani -------------------------------Nigeria

Amin, Idi--------------------------------------------------Uganda

Banzer, Colonel Hugo -------------------------------Bolivia

Batista , Fulgencio-------------------------------------Cuba

Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal --------------------------------Brunei

Botha, P.W. ----------------------------------------------South Africa

Branco, General Humberto ------------------------Brazil

Cedras, Raoul -------------------------------------------Haiti

Cerezo, Vinicio ------------------------------------------Guatemala

Chiang Kai-Shek ----------------------------------------Taiwan

Cordova, Roberto Suazo ----------------------------Honduras

Cristiani, Alfredo ---------------------------------------El Salvador

Diem, Ngo Dihn ----------------------------------------Vietnam

Doe, General Samuel --------------------------------Liberia

Duvalier, Francois -------------------------------------Haiti

Duvalier, Jean Claude---------------------------------Haiti

Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King --------------------------Saudi Arabia

Franco, General Francisco --------------------------Spain

Hitler, Adolf ----------------------------------------------Germany

Hussan II---------------------------------------------------Morocco

Marcos, Ferdinand -------------------------------------Philippines

Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez ---El Salvador

Mobutu Sese Seko --------------------------------------Zaire

Noriega, General Manuel -----------------------------Panama

Ozal, Turgut ------------------------------------------------Turkey

Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza --------------------Iran

Papadopoulos, George --------------------------------Greece

Park Chung Hee ------------------------------------------South Korea

Pinochet, General Augusto ---------------------------Chile

Pol Pot--------------------------------------------------------Cambodia

Rabuka, General Sitiveni -------------------------------Fiji

Montt, General Efrain Rios ----------------------------Guatemala

Selassie, Halie ---------------------------------------------Ethiopia

Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira --------------------------Portugal

Somoza, Anastasio Jr. ----------------------------------Nicaragua

Somoza, Anastasio, Sr. --------------------------------Nicaragua

Smith, Ian --------------------------------------------------Rhodesia

Stroessner, Alfredo -------------------------------------Paraguay

Suharto, General ----------------------------------------Indonesia

Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas ------------------------------Dominican Republic

Videla, General Jorge Rafael -------------------------Argentina

Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed -------------------------------Pakistan

Guess what they have in common - Yes, they were all mass murders and/or dictators of some sort, and they were all put into power (or supported by) the the US for political gain.

Are you sure 'anyone but him'?

    Almost all the EU wants him gone as he's blocking stuff all the time. Personally I'm quite happy to seem him brought down regardless of who actually does it.  Just out, anyone but him.        -@fluffy2560Perhaps this list will help you to ....Guess what they have in common - Yes, they were all mass murders and/or dictators of some sort, and they were all put into power (or supported by) the the US for political gain.Are you sure 'anyone but him'?        -@Fred

That's all whataboutery. It's just trolling to link in people like Abacha.

We're in Europe and as part of the EU, Hungary is expected to uphold the values of the bloc and not rubbish it from the fringes.

I'd like OV to be replaced with a more liberal substitute who at least upholds better ethical standards and has not bought his votes through Putin style manipulation and/or gerrymandering.

It's not so hard to understand. It can be done with the right messaging. Poland managed to change and elect the opposition and has now vowed to undo the illiberal legacy of the last government. Nothing wrong with that all. We can hope to see the end of the Orban. The number of scandals  recently has shown rot has already visibly set in.

That's all whataboutery. It's just trolling to link in people like Abacha

    -@fluffy2560

You said anyone so I gave you a list of people the US supported in the past.

The point is, if you think the US is actually interested in democracy, forget it. They are interested in whoever will give them what they want. That's regardless of the will of the people, or how many end up dead.

As I mentioned, the NED (CIA front) is at it in Indonesia at the moment. The winner managed 60% of the vote pretty much fair and square, but the US supports one of the other candidates in order to bring Indonesia under their influence. That would mean democracy is out of the window ... or will be if they succeed.

    That's all whataboutery. It's just trolling to link in people like Abacha    -@fluffy2560You said anyone so I gave you a list of people the US supported in the past.The point is, if you think the US is actually interested in democracy, forget it. They are interested in whoever will give them what they want. That's regardless of the will of the people, or how many end up dead.As I mentioned, the NED (CIA front) is at it in Indonesia at the moment. The winner managed 60% of the vote pretty much fair and square, but the US supports one of the other candidates in order to bring Indonesia under their influence. That would mean democracy is out of the window ... or will be if they succeed.        -@Fred

Don't be daft, you know what I meant.

Everyone knows the US only serves  its own interests, always has, always will. And so what? Everyone else does it too.

As you well know, those people on your list are never going to be elected in Hungary, which is what this discussion is about.....or so I thought.

There's a lack of good opposition candidates here which is quite depressing but as I said, anyone but Orban. It'll break the cycle and shake things up.

You miss the point, again.

The simple fact is, because of your hate for his political vision, you openly support his removal by a regime known for installing and supporting  mass murdering dictators in democracies.

If you can't see the potential problem, you aren't doing much thinking.

The last massive cockup in that corner of our planet started a war that has killed thousands and made US armaments companies millions in profits. 

The US setup revolution removed the elected government in favour of a lapdog, and caused all the death and misery that followed.

Peace became war, but you are willing to see the same things happen again, and risk more death and destruction.

Hate is very dangerous, and probably a little silly when you support something history has shown us to be really quite unpleasant.

Yorkshire has a saying - There's not so blind as folks who don't want to see.

No you are missing the point Fred. Keep out of politics you don't clearly understand..... Already there has been members leaving because of your conspiracy views don't let more follow!

    No you are missing the point Fred. Keep out of politics you don't clearly understand..... Already there has been members leaving because of your conspiracy views don't let more follow!
   

    -@SimCityAT

What conspiracies?

Everything is documented on US government sites/reliable and verifiable news sites that aren't the Daily Mail.

Your closed mind doesn't allow you to see, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

If it's tin foil hat, perhaps you could explain the audio recording of US officials discussing who they were going to put into Ukraine's government, and how the NED is linked to everything - Look at the news reports and the NED/IRI sites.

Name calling is a pretty lousy way to debate. Even worse is refusing to change your opinion of 'anyone but him' and supporting a potential a coup that might very well put yet another dictator into power.

You have the list of previous dictators the US put in place of democratically elected governments, but you refuse to believe what you see.

The issue with silly politics is easy - you don't care about anything or anyone as long as you get rid of a political enemy.

What has Viktor actually done wrong?

Do his supposed crimes compare with trying to bung a journalist in gaol for exposing war crimes - Julian assange ring a bell?

Do they compare with the Shah of Iran's bloody regime ?

Not even close, but that's the risk you take when you support a coup.

I think we need to take it in a different direction. 

I don't want us to be terminally moderated on this valuable thread.

I'm sad to see Louis Gossett Junior passed away.  I didn't realise how much of an accomplished actor he was.

I spent the afternoon replacing a headlamp bulb on the car.   Whatever moron designed that car needs to be given a really hard time and sent for headlight re-education. You have to remove half the front to get to the bulb and have enough room to put the new bulb in.  20+ screws and bolts and 2h for 600 HUF bulb change.  Bonkers.

Just like cellphone batteries. Sometimes they're right under the back cover and easy to replace. Other times you have to first take out the motherboard and unhook a bunch of connectors.

Seems like repairability rarely gets taken into account in design. Better you just throw the thing out and buy a new one.

    I think we need to take it in a different direction. 
    -@fluffy2560

You do.

When making a claim you can't defend, it's far better to divert than having to justify it.

That's two epic fails in two extremely poorly thought through political points.

• You claim to be trans-inclusive, but refuse to say if you would ever consider marrying a woman with a penis. You can't be honest because your answer would make you a bigot by your own rules.
• You said you want a man out of office, 'anyone but him', but can't defend against the very real world results of what happens when external powers remove leaders.

Yes, you do need a change of direction.

</close>

    Just like cellphone batteries. Sometimes they're right under the back cover and easy to replace. Other times you have to first take out the motherboard and unhook a bunch of connectors.
Seems like repairability rarely gets taken into account in design. Better you just throw the thing out and buy a new one.
   

    -@zif

It is deliberate.

The harder to home service, the more money they make.

And speaking of batteries, there are these plans to make Hungary the center of European EV battery production.

But have any of those plans come to fruition yet? Will they ever?

    Just like cellphone batteries. Sometimes they're right under the back cover and easy to replace. Other times you have to first take out the motherboard and unhook a bunch of connectors.
Seems like repairability rarely gets taken into account in design. Better you just throw the thing out and buy a new one.
   

    -@zif

I'm on the 3rd version of the same car.   The other two did not have this problem as they had better designs.  All of them eat headlamp bulbs.  I've been considering using LED bulbs if I can find some cheap enough.  On the other two, I could change the bulb in 10 minutes and not remove half the front bumpers and wings.

The engine compartment on that car has very small spaces. You need tiny hands for many things which means enlisting Mrs F or utilising child labour (one of the kids) to get to places.   It's the 2nd time I've replaced a bulb in a headlight on that car. 

If I had some long, angled, needle nose pliers it might help me out for the next time. Like keyhole surgery.

    And speaking of batteries, there are these plans to make Hungary the center of European EV battery production.But have any of those plans come to fruition yet? Will they ever?        -@zif

There's opposition to the EV battery plants because of the potential for environmental damage.  I expect it's mainly about water use. Here, we use the aquifers of the Budapest hills.  Their capacity has been declining as global warming has changed the rain pattern and they aren't refilling as fast as it's used up.  If I am remembering correctly, I  believe the water in the aquifers takes thousands of years of filtering to reach the main storage areas.  Eons ago I read a description about it.   The water in there is unpolluted as it's so old and very filtered through natural limestone.  It's very hard water - I know because of my dishwasher, washing machine and chrome taps etc.  Tastes really good.

Around here, there's been a major uptick in Chinese (I presume) people living in the area. It was rare to see people of Asian origin.   Now we see them all over.  I think one area of the village which has a lot of housing development has become a kind of hub for them.  I've never spoken to any of them other than good morning (in Hungarian) but some of them regularly pass my house to and from the football field.   I thought they worked at the hospital but I don't know what they do really.  I am curious to find out as I've always enjoyed Asian cultures very much.

They could be working on the high speed train, the university island, the EV battery plants or something more insidious like the secret police stations.   For some reason OV is allowing Chinese police to patrol with Hungarian police.  I don't get why.  What are they expecting?  Some kind of upswing in Triads or what?

Don't forget your clocks this morning:

Spring: forward (+1h)

Fall (Autumn): back -1h

And Happy Easter! 

April Fools Day tomorrow - look out for fake headlines!

    Maybe some brave soul has to step in and steer this in a sunnier direction . . .
So I'll ask for an explanation: why is OV going after the big foreign supermarket chains?

It strikes me as odd because he's a populist and adept at trumpeting populist themes. But does he really think Hungarians would be happy to see Lidl and Spar driven out of the country or turned into "Hungarian" ABCs?
   

    -@zif

More properly: the government does some appearance measure(s).

It is about: as usual nothing else than decrease the steam of anger/ will of any real and effective action.

Because if government fails to (appear) to do something - other Hungarian forces WILL DO.

" big foreign supermarket chains"

Just part of unfair profit mongering, or more properly an arm of the exploitation forces in this colony.

"does he really think Hungarians would be happy..."

to see such occupation corporations get blown up, their stores burned out, their trucks in flames?

The PM in fact KNOWS there are such desires exist among a part of the population.

So as good politicians they do what always do:

Appearance measures to reduce the probability of any real action.

Whatever needs to preserve the illusion that they are in control.

It is always amusing when outlanders have the illusion that the Hun. government/ O.V. wants/ wishes this or that and enforce it upon the people.

While in fact it is the population who demands measures and government appear to bow for the demands in their minimalist politically correct way.

Also don't forget that there will be elections in this summer, the Fidesz affraid that the real opposition may get 3-4 delegate in the EU instead their predicted 2. Which would make more obvious that the present government only does tilk-talk and not really stand up against Brussels.

    I cannot see pro-Russia government returning in Ukraine, not after what's happened.  It'll be generations before Russia can be engaged with again and Putin and groupies must be out of the picture, preferably somewhere under the ground.     -@fluffy2560

The only reason Ukraine has a pro-western government is the National endowment for democracy set up a revolution in order to push NATO East.
That would leave Moscow open to a pincer movement and leave Russia vulnerable to collapse.
If all of Ukraine were allowed to vote, the pro-Russian areas have a fair chance of returning their preferred candidate to government. That means Ukraine is lost to NATO, so their plans are down the toilet.
The last election excluded most of the Russian areas, so it wasn't representative of the actual will of the majority.
It would be bad news for NATO if true democracy returned to that country. However, a long is great for armaments manufacturers.
   

    -@Fred

Hmm... For me seems a fantasy that there would be free elections.

Anyway many of the pro-Russian regions are not even under the administration of the artifiacial state what called Ukraine.

Also because it is an artificial state the overall vote would be quite meaningless - as always the former Polish - Habsburg territories would vote pro-west, and Novorussia pro-Russia.

See the former ones:

2010 president

2004 president

2012 parlament

2007 parlament

Does it gives the inmpression that it is the same country?

More like one half and one half artificially glued together - same as the former Yugoslavia.

At the end of the war, Ukraine will have a state of the art armaments industry and a very large number of people who know how to fight.  I expect there will be many security companies or PMCs with Ukrainian personnel in third world countries. 
   

    -@fluffy2560

On that part my bet is the same.

Not limited to third world - mercenaries/ contractors were always good quality from there to take care of business.

Hmm... For me seems a fantasy that there would be free elections.Anyway many of the pro-Russian regions are not even under the administration of the artifiacial state what called Ukraine. Also because it is an artificial state the overall vote would be quite meaningless - as always the former Polish - Habsburg territories would vote pro-west, and Novorussia pro-Russia. See the former ones: 2010 president2004 president2012 parlament2007 parlamentDoes it gives the inmpression that it is the same country?More like one half and one half artificially glued together - same as the former Yugoslavia.         -@sjbabilon5

I'm not following that kind of narrative. 

I used to hear the same kind of arguments in Serbia about Kosovo - history this and history that.  All justification to say Kosovo shouldn't exist as a country.   I even heard it from foreigners in-country who should have known better not to express an opinion and maintain their neutrality.

But even within FRY (Former Rep. Yugoslavia), the constituent countries maintained their own identity albeit under Serbian "management".  It wasn't much of a step to break up  and be independent as they had their own laws etc.  Sure, there was fighting. But it was inevitable FRY would not survive it despite Serbian protestations and militarism. 

But in any case, the fact is that Ukraine is currently an independent state and has been since the break up of the FSU (Former Soviet Union).  They wish to remain so, with its own language and culture.   Why wouldn't we want to support that regardless of what other countries say? 

I used to hear the same kind of arguments in Serbia about Kosovo - history this and history that.  All justification to say Kosovo shouldn't exist as a country.   I even heard it from foreigners in-country who should have known better not to express an opinion and maintain their neutrality.-@fluffy2560

You should be happy I wasn't drinking coffee when I read that.

I would have spit it out, thus have been forced to sue you for the cost of the coffee and cleaning my shirt.

But in any case, the fact is that Ukraine is currently an independent state and has been since the break up of the FSU (Former Soviet Union).  They wish to remain so, with its own language and culture.   Why wouldn't we want to support that regardless of what other countries say? 
   

    -@fluffy2560

Crap

Ukraine is run by whomever pays their leader the most.

That isn't to say I care as such, just a mention to refute the idea the country is run internally.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/ … e-accounts

However, it's also worth noting a significant portion of the population is ethnic Russian who speak Russian as a first language.

    I used to hear the same kind of arguments in Serbia about Kosovo - history this and history that.  All justification to say Kosovo shouldn't exist as a country.   I even heard it from foreigners in-country who should have known better not to express an opinion and maintain their neutrality.-@fluffy2560You should be happy I wasn't drinking coffee when I read that.I would have spit it out, thus have been forced to sue you for the cost of the coffee and cleaning my shirt.        -@Fred

Oh, you again.

After you finished doing your laundry,  tell us something objective about Timor-Leste's independence from Indonesia.  What's the future for Bali?

You get  extra points for moderate and balanced discussion AND if you can link it to Hungary, a distinction.

BTW, the foreigners I refer to were aid workers IN-COUNTRY, i.e. in Serbia. I never really heard such discussions in Kosovo itself. 

The general rule is that aid workers should maintain their neutrality otherwise they'd be labelled as partisan and therefore unable to do their jobs.

    But in any case, the fact is that Ukraine is currently an independent state and has been since the break up of the FSU (Former Soviet Union).  They wish to remain so, with its own language and culture.   Why wouldn't we want to support that regardless of what other countries say?          -@fluffy2560CrapUkraine is run by whomever pays their leader the most.That isn't to say I care as such, just a mention to refute the idea the country is run internally.https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/ … e-accountsHowever, it's also worth noting a significant portion of the population is ethnic Russian who speak Russian as a first language.        -@Fred

Like I said, let's have balanced discussions, not cynical verbiage and particularly, less links.  Let's have a self contained discussion.   I'd prefer to see a summary with a SWOT analysis (Strengths, Weakness, Opportunities and Threats) over your hypothesis.

Oh, you again.After you finished doing your laundry,  tell us something objective about Timor-Leste's independence from Indonesia.  What's the future for Bali?You get  extra points for moderate and balanced discussion AND if you can link it to Hungary, a distinction.    -@fluffy2560

You say link to Hungry, but you talk of three countries that don't even share a consonant with it.

Nice defection from YOUR point about foreigners remaining neutral, but an epic fail as I won't take the bait.

I even heard it from foreigners in-country who should have known better not to express an opinion and maintain their neutrality.

    -@fluffy2560

The elected leader of Iran, Mohammad Mosaddegh, was overthrown but the CIA and MI5 in order to get the Shah into power. That gave the US and UK the oil rights they were about to lose.
The Shah went on to murder by the thousand and, as we know, got kicked out in a revolution that brought the more extreme Muslim elements into power that we see today.
 

    -@Fred

History probably not repeat itself but rhymes for sure.

This is the future of Hungary.

As soon the World Empire of Wokistan will be succesful to overthrow the present softcore-moderate government and install their old-new atlantist-governorate as their puppet there will be a civil war here.

In that war world will get a glimpse what radical means when no one can hold back us any more.

So happens what always happens when the moderate - centrists and their balancing get removed.

I even heard it from foreigners in-country who should have known better not to express an opinion and maintain their neutrality.-@fluffy

BTW, the foreigners I refer to were aid workers IN-COUNTRY, i.e. in Serbia. I never really heard such discussions in Kosovo itself.    -@fluffy2560

So you heard it, but you didn't hear it.

You are Trump and I claim my $50

But it was inevitable FRY would not survive it despite Serbian protestations and militarism. 

 

    -@fluffy2560

Exactly.

Same true for Ukraine: falling apart was close to inevitable.

    Oh, you again.After you finished doing your laundry,  tell us something objective about Timor-Leste's independence from Indonesia.  What's the future for Bali?You get  extra points for moderate and balanced discussion AND if you can link it to Hungary, a distinction.    -@fluffy2560You say link to Hungry, but you talk of three countries that don't even share a consonant with it.Nice defection from YOUR point about foreigners remaining neutral, but an epic fail as I won't take the bait.I even heard it from foreigners in-country who should have known better not to express an opinion and maintain their neutrality.    -@fluffy2560  -@Fred

I was referring to your coffee spluttering highlight of neutrality.     

     I even heard it from foreigners in-country who should have known better not to express an opinion and maintain their neutrality.-@fluffyBTW, the foreigners I refer to were aid workers IN-COUNTRY, i.e. in Serbia. I never really heard such discussions in Kosovo itself.    -@fluffy2560So you heard it, but you didn't hear it.You are Trump and I claim my $50 -@Fred

The Kosovans were happy for foreign intervention and support.  Unlike Ukraine.  So if they did speak about it, it was usually with gratitude.

I think the pro-Putin lobby here misses a point.

Even if Putin succeeds in removing Ukraine's independence due to the USA's lack of commitment and Trump's nonsense, there are many millions of people in UKR who will resist occupation and have the means to take out their local proxies and any Quislings.   

It will take millions of occupying troops to keep a lid on it.   And he has to do the same back in Russia and keep the subjugation up everywhere Putin thinks he's got a chance. 

It'll be a never ending story for him and the Russian economy.   It'll be 20 years max before it all starts up again (i.e. Putin's death).  Putin's legacy will just be an economic dead end. And not that many are going to accept death when they have the wherewithal to escape.   The Russian diaspora escapees is now millions strong.  They won't support current Putin or a Putin-lite next time.  Too busy making money elsewhere.

I suppose it could all blow up to WW3 with China and Taiwan as a diversion but they aren't so dumb.  Couple of foreign submarines patrolling the area will destroy their export capacity and their economy.   Taiwan is a dead loss as foreign policy (for China).   

   
    Oh, you again.After you finished doing your laundry,  tell us something objective about Timor-Leste's independence from Indonesia.  What's the future for Bali?You get  extra points for moderate and balanced discussion AND if you can link it to Hungary, a distinction.    -@fluffy2560You say link to Hungry, but you talk of three countries that don't even share a consonant with it.Nice defection from YOUR point about foreigners remaining neutral, but an epic fail as I won't take the bait.I even heard it from foreigners in-country who should have known better not to express an opinion and maintain their neutrality.    -@fluffy2560  -@Fred

I was referring to your coffee spluttering highlight of neutrality.     
   

    -@fluffy2560

To be (neutral), or not to be (neutral), but one of your statements is a terminological inectactitude as both can't be true.

    But it was inevitable FRY would not survive it despite Serbian protestations and militarism.        -@fluffy2560

Exactly.
Same true for Ukraine: falling apart was close to inevitable.
   

    -@sjbabilon5

Not really. Whilst the country had problems, it was a working democracy until a foreign power interferered.

That's what started the war.

            Oh, you again.After you finished doing your laundry,  tell us something objective about Timor-Leste's independence from Indonesia.  What's the future for Bali?You get  extra points for moderate and balanced discussion AND if you can link it to Hungary, a distinction.    -@fluffy2560You say link to Hungry, but you talk of three countries that don't even share a consonant with it.Nice defection from YOUR point about foreigners remaining neutral, but an epic fail as I won't take the bait.I even heard it from foreigners in-country who should have known better not to express an opinion and maintain their neutrality.    -@fluffy2560  -@FredI was referring to your coffee spluttering highlight of neutrality.              -@fluffy2560

To be (neutral), or not to be (neutral), but one of your statements is a terminological inectactitude as both can't be true.
   

    -@Fred

Which one?

You mean inexactitude.   Dictionaries are available.

I'm saying INSIDE the aid recipient country, aid workers or even peacekeepers are required to be neutral, i.e. not to engage in politics while doing their job. They can do what they want at home post-contract.

That's not so difficult to understand is it?

Or is this just the right forum for an argument?

        But it was inevitable FRY would not survive it despite Serbian protestations and militarism.        -@fluffy2560Exactly.Same true for Ukraine: falling apart was close to inevitable.        -@sjbabilon5

Not really. Whilst the country had problems, it was a working democracy until a foreign power interferered.
That's what started the war.
   

    -@Fred

Which country?  UKR or FRY?

Or is this just the right forum for an argument?
   

    -@fluffy2560

Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?

    Or is this just the right forum for an argument?         -@fluffy2560Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?        -@Fred

Exactly, don't forget automatic gamesaying is not putting forward arguments to establish a proposition.

It's more like a half day it seems and I'm not charging.  I'm interested in balanced analysis. I've told you once.

Maybe we should move on to the theory that you have about dinosaurs, ahem...or how many sheds you have?

https://news.sky.com/story/tories-could-be-left-with-fewer-than-100-mps-after-next-general-election-major-poll-suggests-13105117

https://news.sky.com/story/tories-could-be-left-with-fewer-than-100-mps-after-next-general-election-major-poll-suggests-13105117-@SimCityAT

Wow, that's really something. But it's hardly surprising.  They are absolutely stuffed. So much absolute drivel coming out of Tory MPs mouths these days.   It'll be a Labour landslide, simply because of who they aren't.  Reform might end up as the biggest opposition party and Farage may well be opposition leader if he can get elected.

Not that Rishi will care really, he's a multi-millionaire, so he's got no problem paying his bills and he's gonna milk his ex-PM status for all it's worth.

I haven't read the Labour manifesto but maybe I should.   I really am interested to know what they will do about Brexit but I don't expect to find out until after the election - Labour's not going to queer their pitch by showing all the cards early.  It's the biggest issue amongst the many I have with UK politics.   I