Absolutely Anything Else

Chikagoan wrote:

Once again, don't be ridiculous. I would never support Nazism or Stalinism or genocide or anti-semitism. That is obviously NOT the issue.

Then answer my question. Unambiguously. Yes, or no. You still have not. So you are still hedging. One more try. After that you fail.

Chikagoan wrote:

that is obviously NOT the issue.

Only to you. I am asking a question on a larger issue, of which "immigration" is just a political detail.

By the way, I thought you were pro-democracy? In which case, who elected you to declare what is "the issue"? Or are you just trying to act like a dictator and unilateral define what "the issue" is? 

Chikagoan wrote:

The point is that the left is deliberately attempting to confuse the issues

Claiming others are "confusing the issue" is just propaganda and spin from the reactionary right to obfuscate the real issues of legitimate refugees. 

See how easy is it to politically spin and counter you "claims"?

Your tribe against another tribe. Rather pathetic of you, actually, and when examined critically. Meanwhile, real people, with real issues are caught in the middle. Sad.

klsallee wrote:

Chikagoan wrote:

Once again, don't be ridiculous. I would never support Nazism or Stalinism or genocide or anti-semitism. That is obviously NOT the issue.

Then answer my question. Unambiguously. Yes, or no. You still have not. So you are still hedging. One more try. After that you fail.

Chikagoan wrote:

that is obviously NOT the issue.

Only to you. I am asking a question on a larger issue, of which "immigration" is just a political detail.

By the way, I thought you were pro-democracy? In which case, who elected you to declare what is "the issue"? Or are you just trying to act like a dictator and unilateral define what "the issue" is? 

Chikagoan wrote:

The point is that the left is deliberately attempting to confuse the issues

Claiming others are "confusing the issue" is just propaganda and spin from the reactionary right to obfuscate the real issues of legitimate refugees. 

See how easy is it to politically spin and counter you "claims"?

Your tribe against another tribe. Rather pathetic of you, actually, and when examined critically. Meanwhile, real people, with real issues are caught in the middle. Sad.

Yes, my tribe. You live in that tribe's land. And no, I do not universally support any group's will as expressed in the ballot box. I may disagree, and if I do, then I would very likely leave if the situation reached the dimensions that it did in the 1930's in Europe.

Furthermore, you are not countering my arguments. I don't accept your arguments or your evidence, and vice versa. We are going to maintain our opinions regardless of what we write to each other. We are not going to agree on this topic, period.  The ballot box will answer the questions, not you or I. History is now moving in the direction of Hungary; Austria, Poland, Czech Republic, AFD in Germany, etc.

Chikagoan wrote:

Furthermore, you are not countering my arguments.

Of course I did. By asking you to prove your ridiculous claims with facts. I need no more try to counter argue beyond demanding proof of your claims than I need try to argue with a fool that claims that the sun sets in the East. I need only ask that fool for proof of where the sun actually sets. Failure of the fool to provide that fact is argument enough.

Chikagoan wrote:

I don't accept your arguments or your evidence, and vice versa.

I had never any interest in changing your mind. Only to publicly expose to others where you think the sun sets.

Chikagoan wrote:

klsallee wrote:

Chikagoan wrote:

Once again, don't be ridiculous. I would never support Nazism or Stalinism or genocide or anti-semitism. That is obviously NOT the issue.

Then answer my question. Unambiguously. Yes, or no. You still have not. So you are still hedging. One more try. After that you fail.

Here is the answer: No I would not support the public will of any government that engaged in genocide, oppression or cruelty towards its citizens or legal residents. Deportation of non-refugees/illegal migrants and confinement to refugee camps while awaiting determination of status is not cruelty.

Chikagoan wrote:

that is obviously NOT the issue.

Only to you. I am asking a question on a larger issue, of which "immigration" is just a political detail.

The larger issue is whether the people of a sovereign nation have the right to decide if they should accept immigrants. What is your answer to this larger question? The broader question is that of national sovereignty in general. Do the Hungarian people have the right to determine who lives in their country or not? The evidence is that they do and that they want to have sovereignty in their own nation. FIDESZ is now more popular than in the last six years. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-hunga … SKBN1D21DE Its popularity is largely due to its stance on immigration. 98% of Hungarians rejected refugee quotas when the government asked last year. https://www.rt.com/news/361390-hungary- … nt-quotas/


By the way, I thought you were pro-democracy? In which case, who elected you to declare what is "the issue"? Or are you just trying to act like a dictator and unilateral define what "the issue" is? 

What aspect of what I said is reference to a dictatorial position? The fact that I believe in the ability of the public to vote? The principal of national sovereignty? It is in fact the opposite. You have already said you don't really believe in democracy when the populace expresses ideas counter to your own. Do Hungarians have the right to control their own country? Perhaps Hungary would be better under a wise philosopher king like yourself, who has the acceptable politically correct, multiculturalist philosophy. The would obviously be [b]true democracy, right?
[/b]

Chikagoan wrote:

The point is that the left is deliberately attempting to confuse the issues

Claiming others are "confusing the issue" is just propaganda and spin from the reactionary right to obfuscate the real issues of legitimate refugees. 

See how easy is it to politically spin and counter you "claims"?

So by calling my opinions reactionary you are countering me? By politically labeling my opinions you are countering them? What evidence have you provided to prove me wrong? Are 98% of Hungarians wrong?
Illegal migrants: http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/17/europe/me … index.html
EU admits most migrants are NOT refugees and have no legal right to be there: http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/ … portations

Your tribe against another tribe. Rather pathetic of you, actually, and when examined critically. Meanwhile, real people, with real issues are caught in the middle. Sad.

Yes, my tribe. You live in that tribe's land. And no, I do not universally support any group's will as expressed in the ballot box. I may disagree, and if I do, then I would very likely leave if the situation reached the dimensions that it did in the 1930's in Europe.

So insisting on a legal and controlled immigration policy is "pathetic"????

Furthermore, you are not countering my arguments. I don't accept your arguments or your evidence, and vice versa. We are going to maintain our opinions regardless of what we write to each other. We are not going to agree on this topic, period.  The ballot box will answer the questions, not you or I. History is now moving in the direction of Hungary; Austria, Poland, Czech Republic, AFD in Germany, etc.

It must be unfortunate to be such an "enlightened" individual and yet to have to deal with the reactionary Magyars who somehow still want to control their own borders and maintain their own unique culture!!!!

klsallee wrote:

Rawlee wrote:

Very wrong example. The US is only 1 party away from dictatorship.

Oh please. What nonsense. Thus the rest of the post is easily dismissed on basis of such ignorance. The USA survived McCarthy, and Nixon. It will survive Trump.

Meanwhile, in Hungary, the PM actually promotes illiberal states...

Lol. Is that how you understood his point. /shake my head in disbelief.
You are getting your info from Huff Post, Jesus, man, grow up.

My humble opinion with my 8th grade US gov. studies is we probably will be seeing AI take over because people no matter how well educated or how lofty their ideas are they all seem to get greedy with power and rule for their own agendas.
People just seem to never get it right.
Someone is always getting the raw deal or the short stick.
People in the end get selfish and only see their own inner circle as the only ones worthy of anything.
Let them eat cake is getting really old, people will rise once they have had enough.
Of course I do not really follow politics or vote.
You all seem very well informed on this topic.

In the end machine will win out over man... Scary really that we can't do what's right for everyone.
Maybe we should go back to the old Iroquois Confederacy form of voting.
The US Constitution was built on principles from the Native Americans who ran the Iroquois Nation with a Matriarchal system.
One thing the US forefathers didn't follow was having women vote. In fact the US natives were not given the right to vote in their own country until 1924. The same year my mother was born.( She was 1/4th Native)
The female elders would have a male rep go to tribal council. If he didn't vote they way they told him to, he was out of the long house.
Take your bow and go
The women owned  everything and ran the entire gov. From everything from  crops to grow to going to war or not.
Either we will go backwards or forwards because what's going on right now isn't really working for the majority of the worlds population.
just some thoughts.
Like I said, I don't follow politics and really know nothing,just know people are sick of being used and run over in just about every country right now.
I see even writing anything to do with politics is a hot topic.

Anyways... what about that game? Just to lighten the subject.

MOHCTEP wrote:

klsallee wrote:

Rawlee wrote:

Very wrong example. The US is only 1 party away from dictatorship.

Oh please. What nonsense. Thus the rest of the post is easily dismissed on basis of such ignorance. The USA survived McCarthy, and Nixon. It will survive Trump.

Meanwhile, in Hungary, the PM actually promotes illiberal states...

Lol. Is that how you understood his point. /shake my head in disbelief.
You are getting your info from Huff Post, Jesus, man, grow up.

It was widely reported internationally, not just at the Huff(ington) Post.  Might have just been OV cuddling up to the Russians for some reason, maybe over the nuclear power station or other investment.   Russians have a lot of money here now.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

.....
Like I said, I don't follow politics and really know nothing,just know people are sick of being used and run over in just about every country right now.
I see even writing anything to do with politics is a hot topic.

Anyways... what about that game? Just to lighten the subject.

I did use the philosophy of Forrest Gump and others to try and introduce some humour into it all.  I'm quite interested in the debate but I am surprised at the level of feeling about it. 

I was surprised we have multiple threads going on -  Star Trek and politics. 

Incidentally,  turns out Anthony Rapp (as the "logic" one in Start Trek: Discovery) has  got a new BF in the show.   That didn't take long - his previous BF was blown up by the Klingons and now he's got over that within a couple of episodes and is now  partying with the ships' doctor. Seems like being injected with alien DNA makes you both cool and more "human".

It's a sunny  and relatively warm day.  And it's the weekend.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I was surprised we have multiple threads going on -  Star Trek and politics. 

Incidentally,  turns out Anthony Rapp (as the "logic" one in Start Trek: Discovery) has  got a new BF in the show.   That didn't take long - his previous BF was blown up by the Klingons and now he's got over that within a couple of episodes and is now  partying with the ships' doctor. Seems like being injected with alien DNA makes you both cool and more "human".

It's a sunny  and relatively warm day.  And it's the weekend.

Nice to know they may not neuter him, but it does diminish the seriousness of and commitment to a relationship when you get over it in a matter of weeks.

I saw some more people hopping on the sexual assault bandwagon.  Again, I am NOT saying that there are not serious assaults. There obviously are and I fully detest them and the cretins who perpetrate such crimes. However, some of the stories I am reading really amount to "He/she made me feel uncomfortable". Really? Grow a pair and get over it. I really can't fathom such a level of outrage towards such minor offenses -- again, not all of them, just those that seem really trivial.  I'd be embarrassed to even admit to such a minor feeling of unease, again, from some of the reports I'm reading.

klsallee wrote:

Rawlee wrote:

Very wrong example. The US is only 1 party away from dictatorship.

Oh please. What nonsense. Thus the rest of the post is easily dismissed on basis of such ignorance. The USA survived McCarthy, and Nixon. It will survive Trump.

Meanwhile, in Hungary, the PM actually promotes illiberal states...

Ohhh, it survived McCarthy and Nixon? Did it survive mongol hordes? Ottomans? did it exist for a 1000 years? Did it endure Stalinism?

Go back to kindergarten, kiddo. Again, b*tching about Orbán is nothing but acting like a spoiled brat. The glorified "liberalism" existed for a very tiny timeframe. The concept of serfdom existed for a few centuries. Lets see if liberalism will exist that long, or it will extinguish itself...it is on a very good path for suicide, not just here.

It is a bit odd that these sexual assault allegations are out at this late date in Hollywood history.
Everyone knows the game in Hollywood.
Gosh, as a 16-17 year old out walking down Sunset or Hollywood Blvd just window shopping I was verbally assaulted at least 10 times per walk, let alone having some creepy  creep park ahead of me and call out, making your head turn towards their "personal activity" going on in the front seat.
Good thing I didn't have access to a cell phone back then or I would of been spending the rest of my teen years in court!
Only time I could walk alone was when I had my sisters Great Dane and huge black Lab with me.
Even walking with another teen girl was "interesting" to say the least.
Once some old weirdo parked ahead of me and shouted out, "Are you walking or working"? I was so naive I didn't understand what he meant until a very long time later...
Give me a break Hollywood, just seeking some attention once again.
Once aged 17 was catching a ride by hitchhiking with my 21 year old friend.
We had a hitchhiking system , of sorts, one of us would always sit in the back seat in case the driver got pervy or anything. That way one of us could at least hit him on the head or whatever.
OK, my turn to sit up front on a short ride down a blvd. In Hollywood.
I was staring out the window and not really listening or looking at the driver.
My friend started to tap me on the shoulder over and over again, I looked at the driver and I will not mention what he was doing with himself but it was more then just scratching a itch!!
We came up to a red light at a big intersection, this was in heavy traffic.
I jumped out of the car, my friend also jumped out of the back seat and we both just left his two car doors open.
It was divine justice. The light turned green, he was trying to zip up and somehow close both car doors and move. Everyone was honking at him, we laughed out heads off, better then get afraid or upset.
It was pure entertainment.

Rawlee wrote:

....hhh, it survived McCarthy and Nixon? Did it survive mongol hordes? Ottomans? did it exist for a 1000 years? Did it endure Stalinism?

Go back to kindergarten, kiddo. Again, b*tching about Orbán is nothing but acting like a spoiled brat. The glorified "liberalism" existed for a very tiny timeframe. The concept of serfdom existed for a few centuries. Lets see if liberalism will exist that long, or it will extinguish itself...it is on a very good path for suicide, not just here.

I'm intrigued to know how old you are? 

Those kind of power plays are not unique to Hungary.  Pointless to big it up. Every country has the same kind of history.   At the end of the day, whatever the system, people are people and we're social beings.  No-one wants any colour of fascists running their country and they want to know their voice will be heard.  If they aren't listened to, they will eventually revolt or they'll vote the incumbent out  (if they can). Put people on an island and eventually it'll be one tribe regardless of any initial infighting. 

Couple of things (variously attributed):

1) “A young man who isn't a socialist hasn't got a heart; an old man who is a socialist hasn't got a head.” 

(for socialist read any colour of fascist)

2) "You can't cross a chasm in two small jumps.”

(some people cannot accept incremental change)

And complaining about OV is fine - it's still a democracy and it's ok to do that.  Just as it's OK to complain about Trump.  When it's not a democracy here,  then it'll be like Turkey.  In that latter case, Martin Niemöller's famous poem comes to mind:

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. "

Vicces1 wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I was surprised we have multiple threads going on -  Star Trek and politics. 

Incidentally,  turns out Anthony Rapp (as the "logic" one in Start Trek: Discovery) has  got a new BF in the show.   That didn't take long - his previous BF was blown up by the Klingons and now he's got over that within a couple of episodes and is now  partying with the ships' doctor. Seems like being injected with alien DNA makes you both cool and more "human".

It's a sunny  and relatively warm day.  And it's the weekend.

Nice to know they may not neuter him, but it does diminish the seriousness of and commitment to a relationship when you get over it in a matter of weeks....

Agreed.

I guess getting your DNA rearranged changes you in more ways than one can expect.  Still, more depth to it than before.  He's better as a re-engineered human than as the strange fella he was before.  The Doc and him are clearly getting it on by the "atmosphere" between them and the interaction between them and the other characters. 

I read a book on Rodenberry once.  He always wanted ST to be entertaining AND a social commentary - hence the banned Uhuru and Kirk kiss.

We used to wait every week for the new episodes of the original ST on tv in the 1960's.
Was one of the best shows on the set back then.
Sort of lost interest in sci-fi over the years..
Seems real life is allot like sci-fi enough for me.

Another odd Hollywood tale.
My sister was just starting out doing modeling in the late 1960's. She had to wait until she was 18 and move out of the house and was on her own, our mom wouldn't allow anything like being a model.
She worked in offices but tried modeling here and there. Actually got a few photos in GQ mag once. She of course was fully dressed wearing a cool outfit, nothing like GQ these days.
Anyways her modeling career was very short lived. She met and married her husband around age 19 ( like me)
He freaked out when her agent was calling all the time trying to get her to go on dinner dates with clients...No wonder she didn't go further then a one time spread of shots in GQ.
Ok fast forward to me being a 20 year old mom to be .
My husband was in Hawaii and I was following.
Was nearly 7 months along and had to go to Hi before I was not allowed to fly.
I quit my job and gave up our flat, stayed for 2 weeks with my sister before flying away to HI.
One night she told me to get dressed up we were going to some very expensive dinner with one of her Hollywood connections from the past, some movie producer I think.
She about twisted my arm to go, she wanted a nice meal out.
Ok, we went. Drove to his home and went to eat going over in his car.
Nice meal, my sister cornered me in the restaurant and reminded me that under no conditions would we even go into his home after dinner, just head for her car straight away.... Hmm, don't even want to think about why she was freaking out so much.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Depends what you mean by right wing.  More to the right of socialism?  The communists were just red fascists.

Left and right is not subjective. The communists were left-wing people. Coomunism is a left-wing idea. Just as fascism. Hitler was left-wing. People often associate government forms with societal values. Theay have 0 connections. An autocrat can be left or right, it is irrelevant.
Liberal people often associate right-wing ideas with autocracy, because in conservativism the collective (family, nation) is put in front of the individual, which looks similar to autocratic ideas. The proof is the US, which its extreme-right tendencies, and the absence of left-wing parties.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Anyway, Germany is a federation as is the USA.  Even Nigeria is a federation.  The power is held more in the states than in the central authority.  I would say recent events pretty clearly show the USA (and I'm not from there) is not a dictatorship. Every time Trump oversteps his authority, he gets slapped down as is right and proper. The checks and balances work (i.e. constitutional court - supreme court). Russia is not a democracy as Putin doesn't care what anyone thinks.  Look at Venezuela or Cuba even!

Who said it is a dictatorship? It is 1 party away from it.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Now you're really going down the wrong path.  There are numerous examples of kings getting bumped off because they got too uppity.  In my own country (UK), we removed the fella's head.  That is the basis for all modern parliamentary democracies - elected government and symbolic head (ok, USA is more executive but meh...).  Moreover, in the UK civil war,  Cromwell was offered the crown, he refused as he didn't believe in kingship. We spent several years in a dictatorship where he had life and death power.  In the end we brought back the king but only symbolically.

And your point is? We choose our kings since when we were nomads. The kings needed the consent of the nobility. The position was hereditary only until the king was seen fit for ruling. If no suitable local was found, a suitable king was invited from abroad (Ladislaw).

fluffy2560 wrote:

And what governs the running of country?  No idea? Ok, it's easy it's called "rule of law".  The laws are there to run the country so it's fairly obvious lawyers  want to get involved.  Why would we care anyway what people did before anyway?  So long as they are competent, then it's good enough. Merkel is a scientist and she just got re-elected.  People obviously like her.  Who elected Putin? No-one knows but it probably wasn't the Russian people.

Yeah, that is part of the problem. You see, Hammurapi wasnt a lawyer, yet governed the a very successful state in the world, and even made laws. States existed before written laws, uneducated barbarians clubbed the raiders from the neightbouring tribe if they tried to steal the food. No lawyer involved. Lawyers were a tool, who translated the laws to the common people, who couldnt read or understand them.

Lawyers rule countries today, because only they know the shortcuts and loopholes in the very laws they created. The game is rigged...

fluffy2560 wrote:

Ha!  You obviously don't like my attempts at humour and frivolity but you are getting better at the returns but I would say you should stop quoting from what you Google'd as not everything out there is actually true. 

Generally all  can say is that my impressions that....You can't handle the truth!.

No, I am frustrated by some concept I've experienced here. People want to move here, for some odd reasons, deeming my home better than their old one...and then want to change it. I mean, there are like 200 countries out there, if this was the winner, then there should be no desires for change, or the choice was bad. Either way, I am the one who has to live with the consequences of both change and no-change, as the person who came here willing can leave any time. It should be common courtesy to accept things without compaint.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I'm intrigued to know how old you are? 

Those kind of power plays are not unique to Hungary.  Pointless to big it up. Every country has the same kind of history.   At the end of the day, whatever the system, people are people and we're social beings.  No-one wants any colour of fascists running their country and they want to know their voice will be heard.  If they aren't listened to, they will eventually revolt or they'll vote the incumbent out  (if they can). Put people on an island and eventually it'll be one tribe regardless of any initial infighting. 

Couple of things (variously attributed):

1) “A young man who isn't a socialist hasn't got a heart; an old man who is a socialist hasn't got a head.” 

(for socialist read any colour of fascist)

2) "You can't cross a chasm in two small jumps.”

(some people cannot accept incremental change)

And complaining about OV is fine - it's still a democracy and it's ok to do that.  Just as it's OK to complain about Trump.  When it's not a democracy here,  then it'll be like Turkey.  In that latter case,

I am 31.

What many educated people fail to understand that not all societies desire democracy. If a society reaches a point in development, only then it starts to desire say in its fate. This is the very reason why the Arab Springs, and the wars across Asia and Africa resulted in collapsed regimes and emergence of radicals. These societies dont want democracy. And this is why democracy is in such a state in this half of Europe too, and especially Russia. It is visible in the attendance of voting. Average Joe has higher priorities than democracy, he wants to eat, or have a home.

You are mixing up freedom of speech and democracy. These 2 are not freely interchangeable. We dont have freedom of speech, for example, you cant question the holocaust. But you cant do that in Germany either...or you cant use certain symbols, like the swastika.

So it's alcohol free month in Hungary!
Anyone up to trying this out?
I actually was doing this on my own without knowing about it being a "official" thing here in Hungary.
Picked up a few liters of mineral water yesterday from the spa pump house.
We always bring heavy glass bottles to fill up, not a easy task to  lug 10 liters of water in glass from the st. parking all through the park area though.
I probably wouldn't be even considered a "drinker" unless half a bottle of red wine a day is being a "alkie".
I really love the taste of wine, love to drink while cooking, as soon as the dinner is finished I am also finished with drinking.
Makes me often cook many dishes at once no fast food around here because they would cut into my wine drinking time!
Anyone going to give up alcohol for a month, I know not everyone drinks but for those of you who do like a nip once in awhile?
I wonder though if it really is good to clean up ones act only to go back to bad habits for the holidays?

Rawlee wrote:

....I am 31.

Surprising.  I thought you were younger.

Rawlee wrote:

....
What many educated people fail to understand that not all societies desire democracy. If a society reaches a point in development, only then it starts to desire say in its fate. This is the very reason why the Arab Springs, and the wars across Asia and Africa resulted in collapsed regimes and emergence of radicals. These societies dont want democracy. And this is why democracy is in such a state in this half of Europe too, and especially Russia.

"Such a state"?  Why? It's just normal business.  The difference is to have open discussion and dialogue which in autocracy is  not tolerated, e..g. North Korea, Saudi etc.

Rawlee wrote:

....
It is visible in the attendance of voting. Average Joe has higher priorities than democracy, he wants to eat, or have a home.

No news here.  All you are describing is Maslow's hierarchy of needs.  I wouldn't confuse voter apathy with day to day basic needs.  It's always been an old adage that freedom is hard fought for and yet easily lost.  Niemoller's poem is about sleeping walk into dictatorship.  A bit here, a bit there and then it's gone. And then?

Rawlee wrote:

....
You are mixing up freedom of speech and democracy. These 2 are not freely interchangeable. We don't have freedom of speech, for example, you can't question the holocaust. But you cant do that in Germany either...or you cant use certain symbols, like the swastika.

I'm not mixing them up at all.

Democracy guarantees a right to formulate and disseminate policies.  That obviously has to include free speech.  I don't see you have  a democratic process without debate or dialogue?

So what's your alternative?  More restrictions on the press?  Restriction of voting rights? Building a fence? Internment of people who don't fit the model? Social exclusion? 

Sure, symbols or discourse depends on where you are and social niceties. You can be a holocaust denier or own a swastika if you really want but that's promotion of hate rather than discourse.  Whether you are right or not in owning these symbols or beliefs is entirely another matter.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Picked up a few liters of mineral water yesterday from the spa pump house.
We always bring heavy glass bottles to fill up, not a easy task to  lug 10 liters of water in glass from the st. parking all through the park area though.

My mother was born in Fony, in Borsod county. Whenever we visit (once a year, no relative is alive there now) we bring a trunkload of bottles, and fill it up with local water from the watersource of the local creek. It just tastes better.
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/orig … 295942.jpg

fluffy2560 wrote:

Surprising.  I thought you were younger.

Is that supposed to be a compliment?

fluffy2560 wrote:

"Such a state"?  Why? It's just normal business.  The difference is to have open discussion and dialogue which in autocracy is  not tolerated, e..g. North Korea, Saudi etc.

There is nothing wrong with autocracy. It suited human needs for thousands of years. But it only works if the autocrat is benevolent, and the people are happy with the person.

I'm not mixing them up at all.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Democracy guarantees a right to formulate and disseminate policies.  That obviously has to include free speech.  I don't see you have  a democratic process without debate or dialogue?

It does not provide that. Freedom of speech, and democracy does not include offensive policies and hate speech. The first pillar of freedom is that anything is everything is okay. If it is limited in any way, however beneficial that is, it is a limitation on that freedom.

fluffy2560 wrote:

So what's your alternative?  More restrictions on the press?  Restriction of voting rights? Building a fence? Internment of people who don't fit the model? Social exclusion?

The alternative is rationalism. Sensible limitations. Voting rights do have to limited. The voting base in the world gets dumber and dumber each generation. The fact that elections can be won with promises about wages...in a capitalistic society, where it is up to the individual to negotiate its wage... A government exists to provide services the individual would be unable to achieve, like infrastructure, healthcare, education (these are debatable, but the still require a group of humans to work together, hence they are not possible as individuals)., not to babysit individual people.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Sure, symbols or discourse depends on where you are and social niceties. You can be a holocaust denier or own a swastika if you really want but that's promotion of hate rather than discourse.  Whether you are right or not in owning these symbols or beliefs is entirely another matter.

If I am denied the right to discuss these (as I am), then that is a limitation on my rights (regardless of my opinion on them). You only play this down because you agree with their limitation, but if god forbid it would be women's rights, there would be riots.

I may open up a bottle of wine tonight after all..
Sort of  mad at my son, have a feeling he once again gave away something of mine that I intrusted to him.
My bicycle!
He has room for it in his garage but he just seems to like tossing our things away.
He once begged us to leave our tv set with him, he gave it to some Mexican workers as a bonus gift and paid them too.
Just didn't want to be bothered in his new place to connect the set.
Spoiled I know, lazy too.
Was planning on using the bike next visit to Vegas for errands, I also am mad about him getting rid of all 3 bikes we bought one for his wife too.
Not easy living between places, left a few nice pieces of clothing with him as last min I was traveling heavy. good-bye leather jacket!
At least the water in Budapest tastes OK, the water in Las Vegas is undrinkable in any form. Can't cook with it either, smells like chemicals.
Hard to find good water in Vegas that comes in glass bottles, very pricey like $3. a liter, better off drinking wine then water over there.

Is the tap water OK to drink in most towns? I used to drink well water as a child in a village when I visited my relatives. It tasted really good and was ice cold.

In Hungary? Yes. In all settlements.

However, the provided water in some cases do not meet EU standards, but that is not the water's fault, and the water is safe to drink, rather that the infrastructure was built for larger load. Also, since most of it is groundwater, agriculture impacts it a lot.
http://www.origo.hu/idojaras/20120809-n … azsag.html
However, this was 5 years ago...

That's OK about the water. I remember drinking the well water in Zala megye. I was only about 10 years old visiting my grandmother (nagymama) and aunts. We had to leave the water out in a pail for it to warm up as it was so cold when it was first drawn from the well.

Rawlee wrote:

....Is that supposed to be a compliment?

What do you think it was?

Rawlee wrote:

...There is nothing wrong with autocracy. It suited human needs for thousands of years. But it only works if the autocrat is benevolent, and the people are happy with the person.

You REALLY want to take that kind of risk? Or go back 1000s of years?  Surely we're better than that. I wouldn't want the level of power without control mechanisms.

At 31, you didn't experience adult life under  communism or even the threat of nuclear destruction.  A loon with a finger on the trigger and out of touch with reality?  Booom!

Rawlee wrote:

...It does not provide that. Freedom of speech, and democracy does not include offensive policies and hate speech. The first pillar of freedom is that anything is everything is okay. If it is limited in any way, however beneficial that is, it is a limitation on that freedom.

I see.  Cherry picking again.   You are missing a critical point. Democracy doesn't necessarily give everyone all they want but it does foster compromise and dialogue and that effectively means everyone gets to live their lives as they want to the greatest extent possible that it does not impinge on other's rights.  e.g. Bill of Rights.

The democratic system, gives you the right to believe in Spaghetti Monsters if you want and your neighbour a right to be a Rastafarian.  But in the microcosm,  it doesn't give you the right to impose your Spaghetti Monster thinking on your neighbour nor him to ask you to start wearing dreadlocks and listen to Bob Marley (ok, I concede everyone should listen to Bob, total superstar).

rawlee wrote:

..The alternative is rationalism. Sensible limitations. Voting rights do have to limited. The voting base in the world gets dumber and dumber each generation.

So what makes you eligible to vote then? And how do we determine  you or I have the intellectual capacity to make a decision based upon the Caliph/King/Dictator's whim?   Who is the arbiter in that system?  And what if you disagree at some point and your nominated leader doesn't want to go? 

History has always shown that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

rawlee wrote:

....If I am denied the right to discuss these (as I am), then that is a limitation on my rights (regardless of my opinion on them). You only play this down because you agree with their limitation, but if god forbid it would be women's rights, there would be riots.

No, I just think it's not a fundamental issue to the ongoing discussion. 

Banning the use of symbols and other types of conspiracy promotion is to stop them being used to  rally oppression for the purposes of marginalising a section of the population.   

Even here, no-one is saying you cannot sit at home cuddling swastikas, reading David Irvings's books or even Mein Kampf.   If you discuss them objectively with balance then no-one will be after you.

But you just cannot use these things as a basis to oppress people and thereby deny them their fundamental rights.

Rawlee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Now you're really going down the wrong path.  There are numerous examples of kings getting bumped off because they got too uppity.  In my own country (UK), we removed the fella's head.  That is the basis for all modern parliamentary democracies - elected government and symbolic head (ok, USA is more executive but meh...).  Moreover, in the UK civil war,  Cromwell was offered the crown, he refused as he didn't believe in kingship. We spent several years in a dictatorship where he had life and death power.  In the end we brought back the king but only symbolically.

And your point is? We choose our kings since when we were nomads. The kings needed the consent of the nobility. The position was hereditary only until the king was seen fit for ruling. If no suitable local was found, a suitable king was invited from abroad (Ladislaw).

My point was that there's nothing special about here or events in Hungarian history which have not been played out similarly elsewhere.  In other words, lessons on the subject have been learnt elsewhere over hundreds (if not thousands) or years.  It's not new news.

Rawlee wrote:

No, I am frustrated by some concept I've experienced here. People want to move here, for some odd reasons, deeming my home better than their old one...and then want to change it. I mean, there are like 200 countries out there, if this was the winner, then there should be no desires for change, or the choice was bad. Either way, I am the one who has to live with the consequences of both change and no-change, as the person who came here willing can leave any time. It should be common courtesy to accept things without complaint.

Let's not be too simplistic.  Some of us have family from here and/or are long committed to a person that is Hungarian.   Many of us come from countries that are long lived democracies where freedoms appear to be more guaranteed.  Granted, not perfect democracies, but our rights are enshrined and we expect them to be the basis of civilised behaviour. When we see the very obvious power plays and nonsensical tactics going on which might erode those fundamental rights,  then quite rightly, we'd want to share our views on this site (it's not called Expat.com for nothing).

One thing I really notice here is the political naivety of many  ordinary Hungarians and I can only put that down to a lack of reading, healthy cynicism, critical thought or just plain awareness.  People are getting their information from things like Facebook which is now in objective media reports as being hijacked by the Russians.  It's really weird because if you go to any Hungarian's house usually they have plenty of books and should be well informed and well read.   

Exception might be people graduating from the  Karl Marx University of Economics - there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one.  I am of course joking (somewhat).

I am not really sure but I believe the water in HUngary doesn't contain fluoride.
That is the worst thing to put in water.
In the US most city water has tons of fluoride in it.
In Las Vegas you can actually smell it in the water coming out of the tap.
In Hungary I cook with city water most of the time for soups and drink it here and there.
Probably the water we buy in plastic bottles in the shops is as bad for you as fluoride overall.
My son is really, really into reading up on how the gov. is messing with the water, air and food.
It is horrible in the US, the fresh fruits and veggies are all picked way too soon and are GMO. You can shop at Whole Foods but they were caught selling some GMO produce and their prices are so high that a normal working class person can't really afford to buy there.
More then double the cost of a regular super market.
I wish we lived near a fresh spring with water that could be trusted.
My husband ( another old Hippie) reads about how to meditate over a glass of water and change the crystals. If you say angry things to water then it changes under a microscope.
Talk nice to it and the crystals form into beautiful patterns.
Sounds loony but it true.
With humans tossing trash into the streams and rivers they probably don't feel much love and the water will react as such.
I have gotten used to the strong taste of the spa waters, not 100% sure if all those minerals at once are good to drink all day long or not. Usually we drink just one or two glasses a day of it and mix with bottled water or tap water.
We almost bought a farm house years ago in HU with a well. I wanted to just buy the well alone for the good water, they had it tested and it was really nice water.
I grew up in the US where my mom used say how lucky we were to have fluoride in our water, a total brainwashing of several generations. It doesn't do a thing to help your teeth and actually kills brain cells, a dummy-down effect on the population. They used fluoride in the water in Nazi Germany in the camps to keep people quiet and calm.Scary stuff.
I think fresh water.air and food is more important then anything, without those no one has a chance to be really healthy.
I seriously did yoga for over 20 years, worked out hard every single day for 35 or more years, always active but now my joints are still as bad as a inactive person would be, the water etc. in the US I blame.
Let's not ever get into the chemtrails...
Honestly I think the water isn't bad from the tap in Hungary at least in Budapest but overall they seem to be attacking us from all directions health wise.
I plan on buying a very good water filter if I return to live in the US. Not even sure how trustworthy they are but what can you ?
The quality of food and water in HU is allot better then many other places.
Mix it up, try different waters and never stick to just one brand if you buy bottled. If you have access to spring water count yourself blessed.

I noticed a question on this site about English schools in Hungary.
bringing in children who do not speak Hungarian and trying to place them in a English only speaking school.
I imagine it is a difficult situation for any parent to place their child with strangers and not know what they will be experiencing daily at school.
I really would have no fear of them being harmed by putting them into a regular Hungarian school for awhile at least and see how they handle it.
Homeschooling is a great idea but they will never feel at ease if they are not just put to the fire and try.
Worst case is they have to be pulled out of school and a private tutor hired.
My father as I stated before started school in the US at around age 7.
Most of the kids in his class were also trying to adjust to another country and language. He attended school with kids from all sorts of backgrounds and countries.
Only time he had a problem was with one teacher.
My one armed Rusyn grandmother made mince meat pie out of the teacher after she discovered what she did to my father in front of the class.
My father raised his hand to use the restroom, the teacher would not allow him to get up out of his seat and relieve himself.
She had a superior attitude with these immigrant kids.
This was in the late 1920's in the US.
He couldn't control himself and wet his pants in class because of her.
My dad was always a proud sort of person with his hygiene and appearance, having the other kids laughing at him was too much.
He told his mom about what happened.
The next day at school in class out of the blue his mom enters the room.
Wearing her babuska and apron, again having only one arm.
She went right over to the teacher in front of the class and put her hand around the teachers neck and swung her back and forth.
Told her off in very broken English to never treat my dad like that again or she would come back and give her more of the same.
From then on my dad had free rain of the halls, could come and go as he pleased.
Don't recommend being so rough these days but somewhere there is a point to this, have to keep an eye out for any abuse with teachers and act fast if your kids aren't doing well in school.

Hungary is not a super rich country who can afford to spend tax payers money on special classes for the children of ex-pats. They sort of figure if you are a ex-at at immigration if you can afford to live in HU or not before giving resident permits out. I am sure they take into account any children in the family and the financial  needs to care for them when they approve permits.
In the US the tax payers also have to pay for illegal immigrants children to have special classes in Spanish, not exactly fair to the tax payers who would rather see the funds used for their own children's educational needs.
A issue in the US but here in Hungary they do expect people to be able to afford and handle their own way without gov support or hand-outs.

Fluoride in water effects the pineal gland so effects the entire body.
Many autoimmune diseases are from the pineal glad not functioning properly.
So many people experiencing thyroid problems even at fairly young ages.
I think in the future some of the biggest issues facing mankind will be quality of water, air and food.

What about groceries and markets? I used to shop at chains in Hungary. How are prices compared to Austria, Germany, etc.?

No idea on prices in other parts of Europe but compared to the US most food products in markets are well under half price.
Of course if your into junk food like Pringle chips, they cost more then double of that in the US.
Healthy foods are about half price but junk food is more pricey, the packages are also smaller then in the US so ounce for ounce the cost more in HU.
Not items I usually purchase anyways. Peanut butter in HU costs more allot more and isn't as good in my opinion.
Sorry, I never buy soda or too many chips etc.
I did notice yesterday on our walk that they have a Churro shop now.
I didn't go inside but it looked to me like they were charging 400 forints a churro!
Sort of a novelty treat. Wonder overall how popular this will be here in HUngary.
I don't like them at all even when living in New Mexico I would never try these, way too sweet and fattening.
Hungary has very good treats without having to import them.
Too much sugar is not good for anyone.
If you cook at home in Hungary you can eat very well and for at least half the cost for the same products then in the US.
Sorry we don't really like eating out very much.
Went to just about every well known Hungarian restaurant over the years at one time or the other, ok but overpriced and we can cook as well at home.
Don't eat anything from a microwave oven and many of these cheaper eating places reheat everything in those ovens. Just not healthy at all.

Great info! Thanks.   I don't really eat to many snacks, so that won't be an issue. But I don't like to cook much, I prefer the microwave, as unhealthy as it may be. My wife does cook, mostly Korean foods. I understand there are lots of Chinese restaurants now, what about Chinese grocery stores for the Chinese residents?

There are Asian markets all over Budapest. To be honest, I can not read all the labels so not sure if they are as good as in the US. In the great hall market downtown there are several Asian produce stalls which have just recently opened up.
My DIL is from Japan so I do sort of take note on Asian products.
You can find tofu in many shops these days too.
As far as finding fish, not sold everywhere in every large market, mostly frozen.
They do have fresh fish shops in Budapest but not really much in ocean fish.
They do have many Asian restaurants around Hungary, some are very good with a sort of Hungarian twist.

Chikagoan wrote:

Great info! Thanks.   I don't really eat to many snacks, so that won't be an issue. But I don't like to cook much, I prefer the microwave, as unhealthy as it may be. My wife does cook, mostly Korean foods. I understand there are lots of Chinese restaurants now, what about Chinese grocery stores for the Chinese residents?

Yes, there are quite a few places to go now.

Have a look at "Asia" Supermarket (next to main Budapest market)- interesting to visit even if you don't want to buy anything.

There used to be a specific Korean shop  in District II but it closed down (or moved) and the original place is now bakery.

I asked an owner of a well known Chinese restaurant (Chen's Cooking) in Sopron why he didn't open a branch  in Budapest. His answer was that he wouldn't be able to get the right or quality ingredients.

As strange as it sounds, I watched a scientific program on TV about water changing its consistency when it is affected by voices.  It was fascinating....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uENITui5_jU

Water even "defies" gravity if exposed to the correct sounds.

Along these lines, Why are there so many Chinese people, and Asians in general, in Hungary? I read that there are more than 30,000 Chinese people in Budapest alone. It is interesting given the general dislike of migrants and immigrants that Hungarians and the government seem to have, that so many Asian people have come to live there. I noticed Chinese form part of the cast of contemporary Hungarian films.

Hungarians are terribly prejudiced against anything that is not exactly like them, but I guess they appreciate the industrious and smart Asians...  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik 
I am a Conservative, and believe in restricting immigration from countries that are trying to infiltrate Western society just to destroy it (a big problem in many open-immigration countries in Europe and North America), but JOBBIK sympathizers are simply bigots and basically Neo-Nazis...  I remember growing-up in Budapest and being taught to be hateful towards Jews and Gypsies. 
Indeed, Hungarians were more than happy to cooperate with the Nazi's during WWII.  They used to give-up their neighbor's if they were Jews, to be sent to concentration camps.  Their reward was to raid the homes and steel the belongings of the family that was sent to the gas chambers...   
There are many Hungarians that still think that "Hitler did not do a good enough job to kill more Jews".  I grew-up with that mentality around me.  As a child, not knowing better, I used to laugh with them over the cruel and discriminating jokes. 
Even in modern, post-Communist times, there were government policies that were designed to get rid of Jews, and many were leaving the country...    Pretty stupid, as Jews are hard working; disciplined and very smart people that assimilate well and benefit the communities they live in. 
It is the same kind of human jealousy that took over German society in the 1930's - to resent when others do better.  Jewish families traditionally make sure that their children are well educated and learn hard work.  They choose professions in accounting, legal, medicine, as well as in the jewelry business (precious stones and metals), because over hundreds of years of discrimination they learned that they need to be able to flee quick, and needed to take their most precious valuables with them - their knowledge, and a pocket of diamonds or gold and silver.   For your sake, I hope you are the right race if you are planning to live there!

Yes, I am the 'right' race. I am a Hungarian citizen, beszelek egy kicsit magyarul es teljesen europai vagok.. My wife however is Korean and she has traveled throughout Hungary with no incident. In fact she is more conservative than I am. I agree with you on immigration (to Hungary) and do not want Hungary to go the way of Western Europe. But it does seem like Hungarians don't mind Asians, as in the US. Hard working, educated and don't make trouble.

Where in the U.S. did you have bad experiences regarding Asians?  I lived in New York City, Florida, Texas, and California and have never seen people having problems with Asians.  Then again, I've never been friendly with people who discriminate...