Absolutely Anything Else

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

There's a lack of foresight...

I think you have hit the nail on the thumb there,.  no the place was never used for animal fodder or as a barn,...

I meant in general.  So many houses in HU have this outside ladder system.  Never understood why it was like that. Even my shed/outbuilding is like that.  I'm screwed the door shut and cut a hole in the ceiling and use a ladder to get up there from the inside.

Yes our place "in the country" has an outside ladder, it also has tiles from the old Ferihegy Terminal I and various other stuff but at least it has a ladder. My name is not dropped in roofer's circles, I am not mentioned in learned journals on the art of external gravitational access, but as far  as I can see give me some way of getting into it short of a private plane and a parachute,

fluffy2560 wrote:

Some years ago, when I first came to Hungary, there used to be many workplace discussions about work efficiency in Eastern Europe.  While Hungarian workers seem cheaper, it was generally thought you need more supervision.   So in a Western context (circa mid-1990s), you could have say, 1 supervisor to 8 workers, in Hungary, it was more like 1 supervisor for 4 workers or even less.  I see this still in some countries that haven't "modernised" or embraced Western thinking - typically FSU (Former Soviet Union) countries with autocratic leaders.  Don't see it in Asia who just seem industrious whatever the situation.

I agree with fluffy, never compromise on safety. I have a fixer upper of a house and it is a damned sight better but not perfect. You never compromise on safety. check, check and triple check,. measure twice and cut once, but obviously the job should be done right the first time and always is done right the first time but still check it just in case it is not. In my own house I stupidly wired earth (yellow and green on modern cable) to earth cos, er, that's where earth goes. It didn't, it did a single pole double throw through light switches. Now because like Fluffy I make sure the circuit is safe behind me, all I got was a circuit breaker tripping. If you tried that you would probably get 600 volts ac going straight through you, touching the two wires will not do much but trip a CB, going across you from left hand to right hand will go straight through your heart.

I have been doing 240v halogens live and I know what I am doing. You don't. I have just shown you my qualifications (I am not talking about fluffy). PLEASE DO NO NOT MESS WITH SPARKS IF YOU ARE NOT SURE. I can do it because I know how to do it, I cannot emphasise his more strongly. There are jobs that I am not sure of that I get a Hungarian electrician in, friend  of the family and we do the job together,. he as master and I as slave

Lord Finchley tried to fix the electric light
Himself.  It struck him dead. And serve him right
It is the duty of the working man
to give employment to the artesan

Cant think who wrote that right now certainly not me.

klsallee wrote:

....What a mess. I later came to simply call this "Hungarian concrete" as I have experienced it here now far too often. 

When confronted with the problem, they were shocked. They were doing me a favor, since cement was "so expensive"..... Good grief......

Yes!  That's absolutely right. Hit the nail on the head there.

They are doing someone a "favour" by screwing it up.  Same logic on my wood store. 

Mrs Fluffy and I have been having recurrent discussions where the builders trot out the phrase "It'll cost extra money".  Well how much then?  100K HUF? 40K HUF? 10K HUF?  1M HUF?  What's "extra money" aka extreme money to them could be small potatoes for me.

But now I have come to the same conclusion, one size fits all, my answer is always "Well, thank you very much for your concern but I'll decide what I spend my money on".

SimonTrew wrote:

.... In my own house I stupidly wired earth (yellow and green on modern cable) to earth cos, er, that's where earth goes. It didn't, it did a single pole double throw through light switches. Now because like Fluffy I make sure the circuit is safe behind me, all I got was a circuit breaker tripping. If you tried that you would probably get 600 volts ac going straight through you, touching the two wires will not do much but trip a CB, going across you from left hand to right hand will go straight through your heart....

It's permissible to use green/yellow as a regular conductor if there's a correctly coloured sleeve with the right colour on it.  That's used when the cable hasn't got enough of the right colours. Some electricians just put tape around it to show it's not really earth.   The normal 3 core cable I hardly use now because it's too much hassle.  I have big reels of single cores with different colours and current capacity (almost always 2.5mm2 or 25mm2 and sometimes 4mm2).   I can then use whatever number of conductors I want without stripping off the outer insulation and trying to get it into conduit.

fluffy2560 wrote:

But now I have come to the same conclusion, one size fits all, my answer is always "Well, thank you very much for your concern but I'll decide what I spend my money on".

No you won't. Orban Viktor will decide what you spend your money on. After all that is what capitalism is all about.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

But now I have come to the same conclusion, one size fits all, my answer is always "Well, thank you very much for your concern but I'll decide what I spend my money on".

No you won't. Orban Viktor will decide what you spend your money on. After all that is what capitalism is all about.

It's not him though who decides on where your money goes or what items you choose to go with.

fluffy2560 wrote:

[
It's permissible to use green/yellow as a regular conductor.

It is not. On that I must simply disagree,. green yellow only goes to earth check part P regs. the only place you put a green yellow iis to an earth you do not use it for a throw. if you cannot afford to by different bit of pvc  you should not be doing whhat you are doing, a sleeve or collar is not good enough.  it has to be the whole length of the cable not sleeved or collared. Because some idiot behind you will assume it is an earth when it is not. You cannot or should not do it that way,

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

[
It's permissible to use green/yellow as a regular conductor.

It is not. On that I must simply disagree,. green yellow only goes to earth check part P regs. the only place you put a green yellow iis to an earth you do not use it for a throw. if you cannot afford to by different bit of pvc  you should not be doing whhat you are doing, a sleeve or collar is not good enough.  it has to be the whole length of the cable not sleeved or collared. Because some idiot behind you will assume it is an earth when it is not. You cannot or should not do it that way,

admittedly that only applies in UK in Hungary you can do-whatever-you-feel-like.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

[
It's permissible to use green/yellow as a regular conductor.

It is not. On that I must simply disagree,. green yellow only goes to earth check part P regs. the only place you put a green yellow iis to an earth you do not use it for a throw. if you cannot afford to by different bit of pvc  you should not be doing whhat you are doing, a sleeve or collar is not good enough.  it has to be the whole length of the cable not sleeved or collared. Because some idiot behind you will assume it is an earth when it is not. You cannot or should not do it that way,

Part P regs - Pfff....think anyone gives a toss in Hungary about that.

In any case, I think the regs actually do allow it but most say it needs signage.  Google it.

In any case, in HU, it's sleeves both ends or more commonly wound up with tape to show something is different.  What's in between you cannot see anyway and that's what meters are for.

SimCityAT wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

But now I have come to the same conclusion, one size fits all, my answer is always "Well, thank you very much for your concern but I'll decide what I spend my money on".

No you won't. Orban Viktor will decide what you spend your money on. After all that is what capitalism is all about.

It's not him though who decides on where your money goes or what items you choose to go with.

When the revolution comes, we'll all be driving Rolls Royces!

I don't want to drive a Rolls Royce!

When the revolution comes, you'll do as you are told!

QED

SimonTrew wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

[
It's permissible to use green/yellow as a regular conductor.

It is not. On that I must simply disagree,. green yellow only goes to earth check part P regs. the only place you put a green yellow iis to an earth you do not use it for a throw. if you cannot afford to by different bit of pvc  you should not be doing whhat you are doing, a sleeve or collar is not good enough.  it has to be the whole length of the cable not sleeved or collared. Because some idiot behind you will assume it is an earth when it is not. You cannot or should not do it that way,

admittedly that only applies in UK in Hungary you can do-whatever-you-feel-like.

So as long as you are OK on the day that's fine? Sorry, you sound like a cowboy builder and putting people health in danger that comes and does work after you have gone.

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's permissible to use green/yellow as a regular conductor if there's a correctly coloured sleeve with the right colour on it.  That's used when the cable hasn't got enough of the right colours.

Then get a bit of cable with the right colours. The fluffiettes are more important than a bodge job. It is not just me that is going to come after you, i have had plenty of electrical shocks from something a bit dodgy. You are setting up a problem for your children when they come to learn, why not use the proper cable?

I can self cert and self inspect under Part P. I have worked on far higher voltage systems than this and on DC volts which will kill you instantly if you grab it. RULE OF SAFETY ALWAYS TOUCH A WIRE WITH THE BACK OF YOUR HAND IF IT IS AC IT WILL TINGLE and you get a fuck that, if it is DC it will grab you and electrocute you abnd you will never get off of it.

I think both Fluffy and I would agree on that. Safety first. Not the safety they put on packaging  or wearing a hard hat on Top Gear, but real, proper safety. When you are up a ladder,. letra,. make sure someone else is at the bottom of it holding it  so you don't go arse over apex.- Basic, sensible safety. I think fluffy and I would agree on that.

the whole point of having earth is so that it goes to earth,. if it goes to somewhere else what is the sodding point labelling it in a big bright colour earth. Of course the conductor can hold it. it is the sleeve that says what it is for

I am well aware of various different wire colours, thanks to SimCiityAT to point out that the green and yellow ones are EARTH.

they should have a red and white one for shavers really perhaps that is my next new idea that won't possibly work

I have just cracked a glass ashtray in two straight down the middle i guess  I heated up the glass too much with cigarettes it went bang straight down. No harm done to anyone but if I tried to repeat that experiment would never be able to do it.

If anyone wants two halves of a cheap glass ashtray please contact me on ebay buyer collects,

fluffy2560 wrote:

ly wound up with tape to show something is different.  What's in between you cannot see anyway and that's what meters are for.

my place has a mix of rather old and new wiring so it is all a matter of discovery. a bit of tape around the end of the tails you must be joking. Covered in paint usually notő mine, have to scrape it off to find what colour it even might be.

And you were bang on with that buzzing on the CU my ex landlad'ys father and I fixed it,n he has done sparks in Hungary all his life. It was buzzing at 50Hz and that is how I chimed in to it. So thank you very much for that, I mean it sincerely. I tend to diagnose the job and he will fix it if it is beyond what I know of Hungarian electrics. So we do it together as I say as master and slave on those occasions he is definitely the master and i the slave by kinda mutual understanding. He speaks no English. That is how you work together is it not?
.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's permissible to use green/yellow as a regular conductor if there's a correctly coloured sleeve with the right colour on it.  That's used when the cable hasn't got enough of the right colours.

Then get a bit of cable with the right colours. The fluffiettes are more important than a bodge job. It is not just me that is going to come after you, i have had plenty of electrical shocks from something a bit dodgy. You are setting up a problem for your children when they come to learn, why not use the proper cable?

I can self cert and self inspect under Part P. I have worked on far higher voltage systems than this and on DC volts which will kill you instantly if you grab it. RULE OF SAFETY ALWAYS TOUCH A WIRE WITH THE BACK OF YOUR HAND IF IT IS AC IT WILL TINGLE and you get a fuck that, if it is DC it will grab you and electrocute you abnd you will never get off of it.

I think both Fluffy and I would agree on that. Safety first. ....

I do agree with safety first but I also agree with common sense.   Sometimes, it's not practical or economical to string another cable just for one conductor and leaving one unused when marking it is sufficient. 

I am pretty sure it's in the UK regulations that it's permissible so long as there's a warning (not absolutely necessary but recommended) and the sleeve (or tape) is on there.

In any case, what you have to worry about is shared N on a circuit.  Even though the circuit you are looking at is not energised, the N might be live as it's being used as a return for another circuit.  One should not assume N is 0.   

In Hungary, I believe the system is so called TN-C where the E and N are joined together.  That seems to be quite common in Eastern Europe and countries under the FSU.

The explanation I had about the back of the hand thing was stop the reflex grabbing action when touching a live cable with the palm. The back of the hand reflex would cause the hand to grasp away from the cable.

fluffy2560 wrote:

In any case, what you have to worry about is shared N on a circuit.  Even though the circuit you are looking at is not energised, the N might be live as it's being used as a return for another circuit.  One should not assume N is 0.

Both are called "live" now under IET but people don't realise that, because it is not common parlance yet. The nulla (hungarian for zero), the blue one, will go the same way back and carries as much oomph as the brown one (or black one). You are going to get hurt either way. that will lead eventually to earth altouigh i have looked around a lot and cannot see an earthing conductor in my place. Theoretically nulla is grounded at the substation and in a perfectly balanced system they should have equal load, of course practically no amount of diversity is going perfectly to balance the load unless you stick your fridge in your attic or something, which is rather unhandy for when you want to get the milk out of it.

I agree with you, use a bit of common sense. But also check check and check again and when you do new wiring make it up to new standard. That is what standards are for, so that people can assume things. Never assume anything with old Hungarian wiring.

The problem with common sense is that it is not very common, Fluffy and I know what we are doing despite all appearances to the contrary, but that takes years of experience and training, you cannot just assume these things. I live in a house where I have traced all the circuits, as I go along, put on new lamps and switch panels, and so on. House wiring is not hard if you know what you are doing. If you do not, call out an expert, it will kill you.

The missus read in the news that "interest rates are going up" we are not sure whether that means Hungarian Central Bank, Bank of England or ECB.

But they  must have to. They have been so low for so long people have been swindled into thinking they will stay that way forever.

Again people are kinda swindled into misunderstanding risk. If an interest rate rises from 0.25% to 0.5% that is not a 0.25% rise, that is a 100% rise. Since most of your mortgage is made up of interest, that is going to hurt.

Looks like we locked in at the right time, we have a small mortgage at rather good rates locked in for ten years. For once in my life I backed the right horse.

fluffy2560 wrote:

The explanation I had about the back of the hand thing was stop the reflex grabbing action when touching a live cable with the palm. The back of the hand reflex would cause the hand to grasp away from the cable.

Not quite. AC might throw you in or out but it won't grab your hand. the DC will definitely do what you say, you cannot get off of it. But the explanation is dead right,

AC tends to throw you off because of a fuckit what did i touch that i was not expecting to be live. DC will grab hold of you and you cannot let go.

back in nineteenth century there was a competition in US to find the best way to kill people with electricity, electrocute them. Westinghouse with his AC system was trying to prove it would not kill while Edison with his DC system was, naturally, trying to prove that DC was safe. He tried every trick in the book to electrocute a man with AC (by the waz that is a portmanteau word that Edison invented) and couldn't do it. Eventually they had to stick his hands in salt water etc to get the AC to go through his body.

DC is very harmful at high volts, that is why we do not use it.

If in doubt wear a pair of rubber gloves so that the stuff will not go through you. I had, many years ago, burns on both my thumbs from touching the stuff, small ones,. but that was AC and I got away with it. I can only repeat once and once again, if in doubt do not touch. This is your public safety warning

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

In any case, what you have to worry about is shared N on a circuit.  Even though the circuit you are looking at is not energised, the N might be live as it's being used as a return for another circuit.  One should not assume N is 0.

Both are called "live" now under IET but people don't realise that, because it is not common parlance yet. The nulla (hungarian for zero), the blue one, will go the same way back and carries as much oomph as the brown one (or black one). You are going to get hurt either way. that will lead eventually to earth altouigh i have looked around a lot and cannot see an earthing conductor in my place. Theoretically nulla is grounded at the substation and in a perfectly balanced system they should have equal load, of course practically no amount of diversity is going perfectly to balance the load unless you stick your fridge in your attic or something, which is rather unhandy for when you want to get the milk out of it.

I agree with you, use a bit of common sense. But also check check and check again and when you do new wiring make it up to new standard. That is what standards are for, so that people can assume things. Never assume anything with old Hungarian wiring.

The problem with common sense is that it is not very common, Fluffy and I know what we are doing despite all appearances to the contrary, but that takes years of experience and training, you cannot just assume these things. I live in a house where I have traced all the circuits, as I go along, put on new lamps and switch panels, and so on. House wiring is not hard if you know what you are doing. If you do not, call out an expert, it will kill you.

i meant  0 is 0V (zero volts).   The null only has voltage if the phases are not balanced.  I think that's what you were saying.  And indeed they are rarely balanced. I don't call N live, that's a description for phases or L1/2/3.  So I call N Neutral or return.  Really we should call Earth, PE as in Protective Earth.   

You're better of re-wiring the entire house rather than fiddling with someone else's bodging.  Just do again and properly.

I seem to have left my ear somewhere. Someone gave me an ear back but that is not my ear, mine had a pencil behind it.

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

In any case, what you have to worry about is shared N on a circuit.  Even though the circuit you are looking at is not energised, the N might be live as it's being used as a return for another circuit.  One should not assume N is 0.

Both are called "live" now under IET but people don't realise that, because it is not common parlance yet. The nulla (hungarian for zero), the blue one, will go the same way back and carries as much oomph as the brown one (or black one). You are going to get hurt either way. that will lead eventually to earth altouigh i have looked around a lot and cannot see an earthing conductor in my place. Theoretically nulla is grounded at the substation and in a perfectly balanced system they should have equal load, of course practically no amount of diversity is going perfectly to balance the load unless you stick your fridge in your attic or something, which is rather unhandy for when you want to get the milk out of it.

I agree with you, use a bit of common sense. But also check check and check again and when you do new wiring make it up to new standard. That is what standards are for, so that people can assume things. Never assume anything with old Hungarian wiring.

The problem with common sense is that it is not very common, Fluffy and I know what we are doing despite all appearances to the contrary, but that takes years of experience and training, you cannot just assume these things. I live in a house where I have traced all the circuits, as I go along, put on new lamps and switch panels, and so on. House wiring is not hard if you know what you are doing. If you do not, call out an expert, it will kill you.

i meant  0 is 0V (zero volts).   The null only has voltage if the phases are not balanced.  I think that's what you were saying.  And indeed they are rarely balanced. I don't call N live, that's a description for phases or L1/2/3.  So I call N Neutral or return.  Really we should call Earth, PE as in Protective Earth.   

You're better of re-wiring the entire house rather than fiddling with someone else's bodging.  Just do again and properly.

i am doing exactly that but going room by room. The missus knows nothing about sparks she knows how to shove in a bit of cable but does not know the theory behind it, never learned trig except how to tell a tree from a long way away. Thee and I can discuss it because despite all appearances we both know what we are talking about. I don't think she ever learned the basics of polar geometry and she is not a stupid woman by any means they just do not learn these things at school it is all Sandor Petofi and stuff so Hungarians do not get a practical education. YOu wouldnt use mains cable to plumb a set of speakers together but that is the kind of thing I find and go what the ü is that live and nulla doing in there. Oh to wire up speakers.

A good friend of mine worked as a sound technician at the Astoria in London, sadly now demolished, Basic little tricks of the trade like how to wind up a bit of cable like THAT so it stays flat, she doesn't know.

As I said the other day you would have loved to see cable manufacture. Start off with a bath of liquid copper, pull it out,, through the factory on an enormous loom at the end it is winding it all round. 1000m of the stuff was an offcut. I worked in a paper mill doing sticky labels and the end of the drum you have about 7mm left depending on how it is machined, but one or two thousand metres by 7mm. My mum and dad never ran out of sticky labels.

Used to do milk round as saturday job and can carry four bottles in each hand, any kind of bottle, I am no juggler just that is what you do, one between each finger. Hungarians look at me very strangely and say do you need a bag a taska because I am just carrying the bottles of water or whatever on my fingers instead of using a bag. They have got used to me now at the corner shop, which is not on the corner, that no I do not need a bag or a basket. Cardinal sin in hungary not to take a  basket on your way in but they  are used to me now this hulye angol (stupid englishman) that if I turn up in my blues or whatever it is quite acceptable and funny and they no doubt think I am eccentric but are always pleased to see me (and everyone else). Family business in hungary are the best, they work hard and they deserve my money. The big chains could not give a shit about my hard-earned.

I am turning into Marilyn now aren't I in my anecdotage

SimonTrew wrote:

.... I had, many years ago, burns on both my thumbs from touching the stuff, small ones,. but that was AC and I got away with it. I can only repeat once and once again, if in doubt do not touch. This is your public safety warning

My warning? No, it's someone else's.  I already know. 

I've got grooves in my teeth from stripping wires when I was more stupid than I am now. I should have got myself some proper tools but I was a spotty moron back then.  Now I'm just an aspiring idjit to be sure.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I've got grooves in my teeth from stripping wires when I was more stupid than I am now..

My front two teeth are false somehow shoved in by a dentist with a gap in the middle. He did ask me do you want the gap closed up or left and they are the perfect distance to strip a bit of cable off of. The rest of my teeth look like the Tower of Dagon, all crumbling masonry everywhere, but those two falsies are darlings for a bit of stripping cable off. The only thing is that then you have to spit out the spare en and the missus doesn'"t like that too much when she has just hoovered the carpet

Now Hoover is a good word because it is onomatopoeic (what the cat just did). Hoover is a brilliant word, it does exactly what it says it goes HOOVE. vacuum cleaners don't clean vacuums, they are by definition already clean, that is just a stupid thing to call them.

On the other hand Hungarian mosogép is a far better word than washing machine, what a clumsy way to say it in English. Obviously it is a mosogép, it goes MOSHO MOSHO MOSHO of course that is what it should be.

aspirateur, the French, is OK but it sucks like an Electrolux. Nothing sucks like an Electrolux,

fluffy2560 wrote:

When the revolution comes, we'll all be driving Rolls Royces!

I don't want to drive a Rolls Royce!

When the revolution comes, you'll do as you are told!

QED

The Rolls Royces will be made in East Germany and will be rebadged as Trabants, so that might be all right for you.

You know what charles rolls said to henry royce when they parted? "All the world is queer save thee and me. And even thou art a little queer." Just going from memory I probably got that a bit wrong

One thing that baffles foreigners coming to the UK is switches on sockets (Hungarian: konnektorok). They are forever plugging in a charger or shaver and wonder why it doesn't work, no, the socket works perfectly, you just have to turn the switch on. It becomes a natural habit that you turn the switch off afterwards, otherwise all the volts fall out of the socket, obviously,

fluffy2560 wrote:

Really we should call Earth, PE as in Protective Earth.

That is exactly what IET regs do call it. It is a difficult juggle between common parlance and technical language here, It is why I never call the green/yellow one "earth" because quite frequently it is not, so I call it "the green/yellow one". That may sound overly pedantic but that way you get no surprise.

The missus got a surprise (a good one) we have a deep fat fryer that we got second hand off Nagykata market years ago, works perfectly. When she pulled the plug out the breaker tripped. I imagine just the spark of  pulling it out, electrical arc, just managed to hit between live and protected earth and that is exactly what it is designed to do. We had the socket off to check the wiring but nothing wrong with the wiring,. It is designed to do it that way for your own protection. You can replace a socket, you cannot replace yourself. But now we are going round in circles.

SimonTrew wrote:

One thing that baffles foreigners coming to the UK is switches on sockets (Hungarian: konnektorok). They are forever plugging in a charger or shaver and wonder why it doesn't work, no, the socket works perfectly, you just have to turn the switch on. It becomes a natural habit that you turn the switch off afterwards, otherwise all the volts fall out of the socket, obviously,

Never known any foreigners to get baffled why thing don't work. 15 years working in hotels not once had to explain.

SimCityAT wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

One thing that baffles foreigners coming to the UK is switches on sockets (Hungarian: konnektorok). They are forever plugging in a charger or shaver and wonder why it doesn't work, no, the socket works perfectly, you just have to turn the switch on. It becomes a natural habit that you turn the switch off afterwards, otherwise all the volts fall out of the socket, obviously,

Never known any foreigners to get baffled why thing don't work. 15 years working in hotels not once had to explain.

It's not rocket science.  Easy enough to work out.

I think more baffling is the use (in the UK) of hot and cold taps.  Every tap I've seen in Europe are (very sensibly) mixer taps.   

Personally I think the European style plug is perfectly adequate and the UK three prong system with individual fuses per plug is just overkill.   

On the other hand, the UK concept of ring mains is a very good idea.  Just to throw in trivia, I believe in Ireland, it's the same as the UK except they do not use ring mains and have star arrangements.  Might not be true but that's what I heard.

If anyone has seen anns can you let her know I found the perfect car for her on the corner car dealer here. i am having trouble getting in touch with her google seems in its infinite wisdom to have deleted all of our emails but she wants a small runaround car this would be perfect for her. I know the car dealer personally and it is 400.000Ft which is within her price range I think, tidy and good runner. Bloody google what did it have to do that for

SimCityAT wrote:

Never known any foreigners to get baffled why thing don't work. 15 years working in hotels not once had to explain.

I didn't say they get baffled. They just simply forget. Wake up next morning and wonder why the battery isn't charged, I am sure I plugged it in.

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's not rocket science.

I hate that expression. Having actually done rocket science, which is not very hard, if you know a bit of physics. I know we are stuck with it but rocket science is not rocket science, it is really very easy.

I worked doing rocket science for nine years, I have fired missiles off the edge of Essex, it really pees me off that expression. But we are stuck with it I suppose. I guess it comes from the Shania Twain song where it took hold, that don't impress me much.

They were playing "Chirpy-Chirpy-Cheep-Cheep" on the radio when I went into the corner shop that is not on the corner. That  kinda baffles me, I am singing along to it and of course they accept me there that I do these eccentric things and I was thinking who wrote that, I can't remember, I think it was a Eurovision entry way back. I havent checked yet that is easy to do, but to go into a corner shop and have them doing chirpy-chirpy-cheep-cheep is a bit kinda brainfog. Woke up this morning and your mother was gone etc, I am singing along.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's not rocket science.

I hate that expression. Having actually done rocket science, which is not very hard, if you know a bit of physics. I know we are stuck with it but rocket science is not rocket science, it is really very easy.

I worked doing rocket science for nine years, I have fired missiles off the edge of Essex, it really pees me off that expression. But we are stuck with it I suppose. I guess it comes from the Shania Twain song where it took hold, that don't impress me much.

They were playing "Chirpy-Chirpy-Cheep-Cheep" on the radio when I went into the corner shop that is not on the corner. That  kinda baffles me, I am singing along to it and of course they accept me there that I do these eccentric things and I was thinking who wrote that, I can't remember, I think it was a Eurovision entry way back. I havent checked yet that is easy to do, but to go into a corner shop and have them doing chirpy-chirpy-cheep-cheep is a bit kinda brainfog. Woke up this morning and my ladder was gone, ooh ehh, sold it on the cheap etc

Middle of the Road.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's not rocket science.

I hate that expression. Having actually done rocket science, which is not very hard, if you know a bit of physics. I know we are stuck with it but rocket science is not rocket science, it is really very easy.

I worked doing rocket science for nine years, I have fired missiles off the edge of Essex, it really pees me off that expression. But we are stuck with it I suppose. I guess it comes from the Shania Twain song where it took hold, that don't impress me much.

Yes we're stuck with it.  Parabolic object in flight ain't complicated but it's an expression which everyone understands to some degree (probably 45 degrees to be exact).   If I said, "It's not Quantum Mechanics" (or String Theory) would it get over the same message?

Anyway, Shania Twain was discussing Brad Pitt.   Rocket Science is majorly complicated compared with Brad.   At least Brad's not squeaky David Beckham.  I reckon he needs voice coaching lessons.  Margaret Thatcher had them to speak more effectively - she lowered her voice.   When I heard him (Beckham)  acting in a TV show (forgot which one), I thought he sounded utterly ridiculous.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's not rocket science.

I hate that expression. Having actually done rocket science, which is not very hard, if you know a bit of physics.

Everything is easy if you know how to do it. Don't discount you are standing on the knowledgeable shoulders of those that came before you.

That is, for years rocket science was definitely not easy. For a long time, there was quite a search for even the most practical rocket fuel, which was in no way easily decided up.

The early history, difficulty and problems or rocket science were well documented by Willy Ley in a number of books and articles he wrote. He even addressed, and refuted, some assertions by laymen "experts" at that time who stated even then claimed rocket science was easy and there were simple solutions.

And even today, no, rocket science is not really easy. Because despite "knowing the theory", a lot of practical reality based problems exist. Despite standing on the shoulders of those that came before, if rocket science was "really easy" SpaceX would should have launched its first orbital rocket within a year, not the six years it actually took. And if rocket science was so easy, they should have had 100% success with their reuse launch system. But that is not how reality works :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2PWKdQzuU8

david beckham acts now?

You are right Margaret Thatcher had a voice coach because her squeaky voice was not very appealing. In satirical shows she is usually played by a male impressionist, I presume it is easier for a male to get there than a female to get down that far. It takes a bit of embouchard like playing the tuba, you have to do it from the diaphragm. Or do I mean diagram? Yes here is the diagram of the diaphragm, then push it up from there.

You owe me three tenners.

klsallee wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's not rocket science.

I hate that expression. Having actually done rocket science, which is not very hard, if you know a bit of physics.

Everything is easy if you know how to do it. Don't discount you are standing on the knowledgeable shoulders of those that came before you.

That is, for years rocket science was definitely not easy. For a long time, there was quite a search for even the most practical rocket fuel, which was in no way easily decided up.

The early history, difficulty and problems or rocket science were well documented by Willy Ley in a number of books and articles he wrote. He even addressed, and refuted, some assertions by laymen "experts" at that time who stated even then claimed rocket science was easy and there were simple solutions.

And even today, no, rocket science is not really easy. Because despite "knowing the theory", a lot of practical reality based problems exist. Despite standing on the shoulders of those that came before, if rocket science was "really easy" SpaceX would should have launched its first orbital rocket within a year, not the six years it actually took. And if rocket science was so easy, they should have had 100% success with their reuse launch system. But that is not how reality works :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2PWKdQzuU8

It does at ground level. You can take gravity to be 9.8 or 9.81 metres per square second and in fact you factor that out of the guidance equations, wind is far a bigger bastard than gravity is, you are fiighting against wind more than gravity, because it is essentially a constant. If you get it right, it should go in a perfect parabola. Most missiles actually rifle so that the wind balances against as it rifles around in pitch yaw and roll, if you get your six degrees of freedom, then on your cartesian axis you have down or up for gravity, left and right obviously, and there you are. Swindle that through a Kalman gain and son oncle s'apelle bob, nothing to it at all. Give it a shove up its back end and off it goes.

In space it is a different matter because you can't get gravity out of the equation. Anyway gravity is a myth. The Earth sucks.