Absolutely Anything Else

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Poor kid, they can't get blood out of a stone. If he has no money or anything of value what can they do to collect?
I feel they should cut people some slack at least.
In the US they have a person working inside hospitals that is a patient advocate. They are a go between that can possibly work out a deal with the hospital to lower the bills.
I know when we had a $32,000 hospital bill in Vegas we got it lowered  to just under $3,000.
Not free but a huge discount, all depends on your income, other factors too but hopefully he can work out a payment bill that won't "cripple" him for good.

Spain is not the USA so the chances of him being on the street with his injuries is zero.  Don't get sick in America. I don't really understand the hospital price gouging that goes on there. I also wonder how medical professionals in the USA even feel they can work in that system where routine clinical decisions would be compromised because of cost issues.  But if I keep going on, we'll be knocking at the Obamacare vs Trumpcare door.

But if he had the EHIC and the insurance, it'd have cost him next to nothing.  I don't think they will be coming after him too hard if they manage to get him home but if they put the screws on, he and his relatives will be paying for quite some years to come.   

BTW, on the EHIC, it turns out that EHICs are not limited to EU countries - EEA countries like Iceland and Norway or even Switzerland are included so when Brexit happens, it could quite easily be that the UK version of EHIC will continue to have continuity.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I also wonder how medical professionals in the USA even feel they can work in that system where routine clinical decisions would be compromised because of cost issues.

Are you suggesting the medical professionals in the USA may compromise routine clinical decisions because of cost? Or that patients avoid seeking health care because of cost?

I don't understand the pricing of care in the USA.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I also wonder how medical professionals in the USA even feel they can work in that system where routine clinical decisions would be compromised because of cost issues.

Are you suggesting the medical professionals in the USA may compromise routine clinical decisions because of cost? Or that patients avoid seeking health care because of cost?

Both.

I sort of had a parallel issue as a discussion point once in a management course - don't remember the absolute details - but the scenario was to do with different techniques of knee surgery for the same problem and the question was about which technique was likely to be more cost effective (across the population and over time). 

I also had a similar parallel in a project where there was a discussion on delaying the solution and making an apparent cost saving or doing the project now at higher cost on the basis of increased efficiency/effectiveness later.     

Bit obviously really as it's just designing in cost model over time factoring in this and that. 

That's what the medics will be doing on the fly and in their clinical discussions.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I sort of had a parallel issue as a discussion point once in a management course - don't remember the absolute details - but the scenario was to do with different techniques of knee surgery for the same problem and the question was about which technique was likely to be more cost effective (across the population and over time).  .

And do you suppose that does not happen here in Hungary?

Do you think you would get the globally best knee surgery possible here? Or, more realistically, just the most cost effective one the state "insurance" could afford? And don't forget to bring your own toilet paper -- because the hospital may not have any.

Or if you go to a private doctor in Hungary, do you think they will give you the latest, greatest knee surgery? Or will they maybe think for you (as people here tend to do) and give you the "so-so" solution they think you want to pay for (since they may assume you are one of those medical-tourists who expect cheap service).

In other words, it is complicated. I think just ragging on the USA system is simplistic. Yes, doctors in the USA may have to decide on ethical issues like this:

https://cbhd.org/content/clinical-ethic … t-and-care

And I admit, in Hungary, doctors may not have to worry about such issues: because, some bureaucrat somewhere decided the better medicine may not even be an option through National Health. No options for better medicine means no heart-wrenching ethical issues for the doctor..... but is that "better"? I for one would rather have my doctor make the decision than a bureaucrat who maybe never even saw a medical text book, or a patient, or had to personally deal with the consequences of their decision. Ergo, no place is perfect.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I sort of had a parallel issue as a discussion point once in a management course - don't remember the absolute details - but the scenario was to do with different techniques of knee surgery for the same problem and the question was about which technique was likely to be more cost effective (across the population and over time).  .

And do you suppose that does not happen here in Hungary?

Do you think you would get the globally best knee surgery possible here? Or, more realistically, just the most cost effective one the state "insurance" could afford? And don't forget to bring your own toilet paper -- because the hospital may not have any.

Or if you go to a private doctor in Hungary, do you think they will give you the latest, greatest knee surgery? Or will they maybe think for you (as people here tend to do) and give you the "so-so" solution they think you want to pay for (since they may assume you are one of those medical-tourists who expect cheap service).

In other words, it is complicated. I think just ragging on the USA system is simplistic. Yes, doctors in the USA may have to decide on ethical issues like this:

https://cbhd.org/content/clinical-ethic … t-and-care

And I admit, in Hungary, doctors may not have to worry about such issues: because, some bureaucrat somewhere decided the better medicine may not even be an option through National Health. No options for better medicine means no heart-wrenching ethical issues for the doctor..... but is that "better"? I for one would rather have my doctor make the decision than a bureaucrat who maybe never even saw a medical text book, or a patient, or had to personally deal with the consequences of their decision. Ergo, no place is perfect.

I'm quite happy to "rag" on the US medical system.  Why not?  Plenty of reports on that to investigate and draw evidence from - but I think there's no need really.  From that evidence, anecdotal or other wise, costs are apparently unnecessarily high - far higher than they should be.    Things like toilet rolls are side shows.

Of course medics have to make decisions which are ethical or cost based but there's one thing your comments didn't really highlight enough and that's the important decision maker - the patient.  For them, it's not just a quality of life decision, it's a financial one too.

In the socialised medicine scenario, where a profit motive is not expected,  a patient doesn't get faced with a ludicrously high bill.   So when I said "both" clearly where there's an expectation of payment, patients are going to take their financial capacity into account and decide if they are treated or not.

SimCityAT wrote:

I don't understand the pricing of care in the USA.

Sort of free market in the USA.
If you are middle class, work hard and pay your taxes, you will find you are the biggest loser in the US.
However if you are lazy, don't work and never try to achieve anything, you will get ahead.
Of course we also have the crimmie /psycho types that know how to work the system.
The US seems to be in a long term downfall, after they crash and burn, the rest of the world will soon follow.
When I was a kid any smuck willing to work a 9 to 5 er could own a home , take a nice 2 week to one month vacation a year, send his brats to a nice college and retire in FL. with a big condo.
Every job gave medical care that was top class, the whole family was on the insurance too.
Of course the wife worked only if she wanted to, no real need for her income and every home had at least 2 decent cars in the garage.
What happened???
"They" set us up for the big let down for sure.

Long story short, over my time in the US I and my family have had at least 4 major operations done and never saw a bill,of course they always caught us at a bad time.
I never saw a doctor when I was pregnant until I was 7 months along.
Think maybe that was good after all, never had all those evil shots and fake med and tests done on me.
America is in it's finally glory, so heartbreaking to say.

It was in the news a baby had a bottle feed and check up, the parents were charged $18,000 in the USA.

SimCityAT wrote:

It was in the news a baby had a bottle feed and check up, the parents were charged $18,000 in the USA.

Well I guess that's QED then!

I wonder what the breakdown of those costs were:

Bottle $10
Checkup $50
Coochie-Coo at Baby:  $15
Choocie-Coo at parents: $25
Doctor $150
Nurse $50
Profit before tax: $17,700

A bottle of formula and a nap cost $18,000, according to a family whose son was treated at a San Francisco hospital after a head injury.

https://nypost.com/2018/06/29/hospital- … and-a-nap/

SimCityAT wrote:

A bottle of formula and a nap cost $18,000, according to a family whose son was treated at a San Francisco hospital after a head injury.

https://nypost.com/2018/06/29/hospital- … and-a-nap/

That's ridiculous. 

If  I were in charge at that hospital I'd have been straight down to accounts to see why they took 2 years to send them a bill.    Then I'd send them a letter asking why they thought holidaying in the USA was a good way to look after their child.  It's tantamount to child endangerment! 

They should have been deported straight away, their child taken away, placed first in a camp, then foster care and then any records immediately deleted or lost to save that child from a life with clearly very dangerous parents. 

And to make sure it's all fair, the child will have to represent themselves in court to get back with Mum and Dad.  But if Mum and Dad even think about coming back illegally, and take up a job delivering pizza, it's no problem, the US military and ICE will get them and deport them!

So there!

fluffy2560 wrote:

I'm quite happy to "rag" on the US medical system.  Why not?

As someone who has lived and used health care systems, due to having one health issue or another in each country, in the USA (private but not mandatory -- pre-USA current law), Switzerland (required to have, but all via private companies -- similar to  the USA Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act), and Hungary "single payer", I can say I am most unimpressed by the "social" single payer system in Hungary.

I can thus mostly easily rag on the "social" system. From direct experience.

You seem to be doing your "ragging" only from "theory" based on only what you read, or heard about.

Hmmmmm....

just sayin'..... 

SimCityAT wrote:

A bottle of formula and a nap cost $18,000, according to a family whose son was treated at a San Francisco hospital after a head injury.

https://nypost.com/2018/06/29/hospital- … and-a-nap/

They took him to a Level I Trauma Center, not a simple hospital which would have been the correct place to take their child (or just call an ambulance and let some professionals decide the best place to take the child). Any normal hospital would have only sent him to the trauma center if he needed trauma care. And the staff at the trauma center were kept busy with their child when a person with real trauma needs may have had to wait. Sorry, but I can not really feel sorry for them. They made their decision to do something stupid. And they expect others to take the consequences? Not themselves?

Seriously. If you take your 1954 Ford to a Lamborghini dealer for repair of a broken knob on your dash, you will be charged Lamborghini prices to fix it.  People need to take responsibility for their behavior. Not expect society at large to cater their silliness in all cases.

But in any case. This type of "news" makes the "news" because it is sensational. It discounts the millions of normal people who get normal medical treatment in the USA every day. Be enraged or shocked if you want. But it is a false rage or shock because it is out of total context.

Meanwhile, should I list the number of people my wife and I know in Hungary who have died from the medical incompetence of the system here? That I, personally, do find actually shocking.

And don't forget, both my wife's parents were doctors in Hungary. And my sister is a RN in the USA. So I do have quite a bit of "insider" knowledge about both systems.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

.
If you are middle class, work hard and pay your taxes, you will find you are the biggest loser in the US.

Oh come on now..... That is a gross over generalization.

I worked, paid my taxes, and was quite successful.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I'm quite happy to "rag" on the US medical system.  Why not?

As someone who has lived and used health care systems, due to having one health issue or another in each country, in the USA (private but not mandatory -- pre-USA current law), Switzerland (required to have, but all via private companies -- similar to  the USA Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act), and Hungary "single payer", I can say I am most unimpressed by the "social" single payer system in Hungary.

I can thus mostly easily rag on the "social" system. From direct experience.

You seem to be doing your "ragging" only from "theory" based on only what you read, or heard about.

Hmmmmm....

just sayin'..... 

No, not really.  OK, sure, I haven't been in the US system (thankful for that).   I've been in various systems across Europe having lived in multiple countries. 

I would actually say that the German or Dutch system I was in was indeed very similar to the Obamacare version in principle. I can imagine it's similar to that in Switzerland.  But  I don't recall paying for anything at all for the family member who was there - saw some interesting itemised bills but everything was taken care of and I don't think I paid any money.  I think those insurance company versions are more like administrative outsourcing of a regulated system of insurance bands than centralised systems.  No-one would be refused treatment or really worry about the costs.

But then again, there's food for thought in one way related to your comment.   I have indeed not been directly involved as a patient.

But the reason is I've not actually been sick such that I require any significant hospital care. Come to think of it, I've never actually been in hospital overnight.  I've had some minor things but none of them actually involved anything serious enough to need to stay in or indeed much of a follow up.   I'm in the system, but never actually needed to use it.  I guess I should think myself lucky.

But my immediate family (Mrs Fluffy and Co) have been in hospital,  so I've seen it work close up and somewhat personal.  I thought actually the care here was pretty good and hospital was quite modern and well equipped.   

Sure, I took a toilet roll, bottle of water, some odd bits of food etc but I might have taken them to anyone I was visiting.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I would actually say that the German or Dutch system I was in was indeed very similar to the Obamacare version in principle. I can imagine it's similar to that in Switzerland.  But  I don't recall paying for anything at all for the family member who was there - saw some interesting itemised bills but everything was taken care of and I don't think I paid any money.

Then not like the Swiss or US saystem. I had a 3,000 CHF deductible I had to pay out of pocket for my surgery.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Iut my immediate family (Mrs Fluffy and Co) have been in hospital,  so I've seen it work close up and somewhat personal.  I thought actually the care here was pretty good and hospital was quite modern and well equipped.

Try my local hospital. No toilet paper. That is the social system. Money goes to those that "matter". The "Budapest" crowd, especially in some districts, sees something different than other parts of the country.

klsallee wrote:

.....

But in any case. This type of "news" makes the "news" because it is sensational. It discounts the millions of normal people who get normal medical treatment in the USA every day. Be enraged or shocked if you want. But it is a false rage or shock because it is out of total context.

Despite my comments, I agree that.  But that's the Mail Online type media these days. Let's all get outraged right away.

klsallee wrote:

.....
Meanwhile, should I list the number of people my wife and I know in Hungary who have died from the medical incompetence of the system here? That I, personally, do find actually shocking.

Well, true enough.  We also know people who have died but incompetence, who knows for sure if some other action would have worked or making the wrong decision is incompetent or just bad luck.

But specifically why is it shocking?  I hate to say it or bring it down to statistics just as you mentioned before - out of X zillion hospital hours per year - a few losses would be insignificant. 

I know. I know. Not insignificant to the victims and their families.

Me also....just sayin'....

fluffy2560 wrote:

But specifically why is it shocking?

Because of the reasons for the deaths (for example -- missing paperwork on follow-up treatment). And so many deaths of people we actually knew. In a short time window. During the "reshuffle" of the health care some years ago. Coincidence? Maybe. I have not run the stats. But I suspect statistics would even say it was.... odd.

And other reasons. Long story. Over a beer sort of things. In the "know" sources that I have.

And did you know my own National Health insurance was canceled? When I had to have emergency care, my card came up as not valid. Seems someone goofed in some office and put me into a non-valid group. The hospital wanted me to pay my costs till I got it figured all out. And that was fun -- dealing with the government bureaucracy here with an injury.  Yippee. What a trip.

Side note: I had to deal with an overcharge bill in the USA too once. But that only took one letter, proving the overcharge with threat of legal action and the problem went away. Here... dealing with office clerks.... ugh.....

klsallee wrote:

.....
Then not like the Swiss or US saystem. I had a 3,000 CHF deductible I had to pay out of pocket for my surgery.
.....
Try my local hospital. No toilet paper. That is the social system. Money goes to those that "matter". The "Budapest" crowd, especially in some districts, sees something different than other parts of the country.

Oh, no, never had that level of deductible in NL or DE.  Don't remember but it was trivial amounts.   

I guess actually yes, it's very different here but I am sure the toilet paper is probably the same.  We like ours decorated with pandas, nice whirly coloured patterns and triple ply.  It obviously does a better job than government owned newspaper.

We do use private medical services as well, simply to skip the queue.  It's become a bit expensive recently so we're using the local quack more but as I said previously, I've banned Mrs Fluffy from buying quackology inspired products and aim for generic meds.

fluffy2560 wrote:

We do use private medical services as well, simply to skip the queue. .

I had a really bad head injury recently.

Blood everywhere. Running down my face. Puddle forming on the floor. Well, head wounds do that.....

But I thought.... Would it be worth going to the hospital to stand in line/queue?

Seriously. I thought that. That is how bad it was the last time I had to go to the emergency room. How stupid is that? For me to even think that? Hungarian reality.

Well. Enough. I am vented out. I don't want to rag anymore. Over a beer, fine. But till then: Finis.

This is quite shocking I think.....

U.S. Has The Worst Rate of Maternal Deaths In The Developed World

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

But specifically why is it shocking?

Because of the reasons for the deaths (for example -- missing paperwork on follow-up treatment). And so many deaths of people we actually knew. In a short time window. During the "reshuffle" of the health care some years ago. Coincidence? Maybe. I have not run the stats. But I suspect statistics would even say it was.... odd.

And other reasons. Long story. Over a beer sort of things. In the "know" sources that I have.

And did you know my own National Health insurance was canceled? When I had to have emergency care, my card came up as not valid. .....

Not faced invalid cards so maybe you were the exception. Sorry about it.

The stats would of course lie anyway they want - lies, damned lies and statistics and all that.

New reality of the post-truth world.

fluffy2560 wrote:

The stats would of course lie anyway they want - lies, damned lies and statistics and all that.

Popularized by Mark Twain. Love him. Reminds me to finish reading "Roughing it", which I have wanted to do for a while.

I have a minor in stats. Stats don't lie. Only the people that misuse them. But other statisticians can catch it. Only the non-stats educated public is duped at times.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

We do use private medical services as well, simply to skip the queue. .

I had a really bad head injury recently.

Blood everywhere. Running down my face. Puddle forming on the floor. Well, head wounds do that.....

But I thought.... Would it be worth going to the hospital to stand in line/queue?

Seriously. I thought that. That is how bad it was the last time I had to go to the emergency room. How stupid is that? For me to even think that? Hungarian reality.

Well. Enough. I am vented out. I don't want to rag anymore. Over a beer, fine. But till then: Finis.

Must be a hard day down on the farm corralling those grapes. 

That's just a joke. I know they don't grow on their own.....err...so to speak.

I came here to wind down from a stupidly hot day stuck in my office slaving over some massive tome of BS from some group who need my OK on their issues but don't listen to a word I say.  This is the second time around. Might as well not bother commenting back but I have to.  And it all continues tomorrow and probably extends into next week.

In the words of The Clash: Should I stay or should I go now? 

Weirdly, one of the Fluffyettes cut a leg in a minor way and decided the best way to treat it was to sow it up themselves, on their own, using a needle and thread out of the sowing box.  Didn't seem to think it mattered if it hurt.  I was rather surprised.  Difficult to do that on your own head.  When I mentioned they tend to use tape these days to hold the edges together, that was a bit of surprise. I expect it'll be sticky tape on the next minor injury.

Looks like a thunderstorm is coming. 

Tonight's Fluffy Mozi scheduled movie: War for the Planet of the Apes.  Not quite, Damn them, damn them all to hell.   Probably time to have a glass of Merlot.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Looks like a thunderstorm is coming.

Had that yesterday and today both after hot days 30°C+

It's fun to see the UK moaning about the weather and how hot it is with hosepipe bans. Trains in a mess because the tracks are buckling, motorways are melting under the heat. Well, 33°C / 37°C is not fun if you are not used to that kind of heat. But here in August, we have been hitting 40°C for the last few years.

SimCityAT wrote:

This is quite shocking I think.....

U.S. Has The Worst Rate of Maternal Deaths In The Developed World

Hmmm.....that's an interesting statistic but there's not really enough info on the drivers. 

I was once peripherally involved in something in a developing nation,  when George Bush started messing around with HIV programmes funded via USAID in the developing world.  What he did as a consequence - presumably on religious or conservative grounds - was actually cut funds for maternal healthcare.  His view was people should be celibate.  If he knew anything about Africa, he'd know that kind of simple thinking isn't going to work there. 

Anyway, I don't know if that has anything to do with the stats domestically.

I did a quick poke around and a MMR (Maternal Mortality Ratio) of 26 is almost developing country level.  It was about 36 in Cuba, 1000+ in Guinea,  9 in the UK and 7 in Canada.  I think Afghanistan is the worst place to be a pregnant woman.  You're probably going to die.

SimCityAT wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Looks like a thunderstorm is coming.

Had that yesterday and today both after hot days 30°C+

It's fun to see the UK moaning about the weather and how hot it is with hosepipe bans. Trains in a mess because the tracks are buckling, motorways are melting under the heat. Well, 33°C / 37°C is not fun if you are not used to that kind of heat. But here in August, we have been hitting 40°C for the last few years.

Absolutely.  Serious but laughable to hear the stories of trains breaking down at the Eurostar terminal.  Global warming at it's finest.   

I expect there will be a rush to get airco now in the UK and then, it won't be hot again for another 20 years although I heard the trend is for warmer weather.

I believe the South Coast of the UK will be like the Med and the South of France will be almost desert like.  At least then, British wine might have some credibility.  Not trolling, just remembering the days of "Concorde", British wine.

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

This is quite shocking I think.....

U.S. Has The Worst Rate of Maternal Deaths In The Developed World

Hmmm.....that's an interesting statistic but there's not really enough info on the drivers. 

I was once peripherally involved in something in a developing nation,  when George Bush started messing around with HIV programmes funded via USAID in the developing world.  What he did as a consequence - presumably on religious or conservative grounds - was actually cut funds for maternal healthcare.  His view was people should be celibate.  If he knew anything about Africa, he'd know that kind of simple thinking isn't going to work there. 

Anyway, I don't know if that has anything to do with the stats domestically.

I did a quick poke around and a MMR (Maternal Mortality Ratio) of 26 is almost developing country level.  It was about 36 in Cuba, 1000+ in Guinea,  9 in the UK and 7 in Canada.  I think Afghanistan is the worst place to be a pregnant woman.  You're probably going to die.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/cha … -countries

Yes, crops have had it bad but the winner out all, is the grapes, and they expect to have a special year.

klsallee wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

.
If you are middle class, work hard and pay your taxes, you will find you are the biggest loser in the US.

Oh come on now..... That is a gross over generalization.

I worked, paid my taxes, and was quite successful.

I probably should of over explained my opinion.
Case in point, my bro makes a fairly good income as an airline mechanic, over 30 years at the same job with the same co.
His wife also is a airline mechanic.
He has no children of his own but resents having in the past being hit hard with high taxes in Ca. as a single man.
One reason he married was to lower his tax bracket a bit.
We had our own business, well my husband was a sub contractor  we could write off some of our housing costs because he had a home office but still, he worked hard and every 3 or 4 months we cut a check to the US gov for taxes on his income.
That hit us hard, everytime our savings started to really grow it was knocked out.
Of course he had the freedom of being self employed and didn't have to punch a time clock.
Seeing people on the welfare system in the US and not being married and claiming there was no father in the home is sometimes a smarter move then having a traditional family.
So many people have live in boyfriends that are actually their children's father and the mothers claim they don't know who the father could possibly be.
Can't make every man on the street take a DNA test if the mom claims she can't even think or remember the names of the men she has been with.
These people work the system with free health care, meds, food and sometimes even help with paying rent and WIC for the kids.
Why work a 9 to 5 for min. wage when you can get benefits worth more then working.
The entire system seems to rely on the middle class to keep it up and running.
It's going to break sooner or later.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

He has no children of his own but resents having in the past being hit hard with high taxes in Ca. as a single man.

(,,,)
The entire system seems to rely on the middle class to keep it up and running.
It's going to break sooner or later.

It's not a question of being middle class, it is a question of being single with no children. Assuming that taxes are equal for men and women (not always the case, but usually these days), the childless are taxed to provide for other people's children's education, healthcare (if you have a healthcare system), an so on.

Personally I regard this  as reasonably fair, as paying back-taxes for my own taxpayer-funded education, healthcare etc when I was a child. But in a purely capitalist system, why should I pay for other people's children? Why should I subsidise their reduced fares on public transport etc? Because, as a society, we (vaguely) encourage people to have children. But it is not as if thosen children will pay for my pension when they grow up, I am expected to save for that myself, since the state pension that I have been paying into for 30 years will be worth exactly 0 pence by the time I retire.

Can we define what is middle class? In fact, can we define any class?

SimCityAT wrote:

Can we define what is middle class? In fact, can we define any class?

Not really. " Middle class" is actually a fairly new word, for what used to be called the "petit borgeoisie". The "middle class" has enormously expanded to the point that we have to invent words like "the underclass" for what we used to call "the poor", "the destitute". To a great extent it is euphemism. Jeremy Corbyn of the British Labour Party calls people who haven't much money "the poor", but he is a rarity. Every other politician calls them "the underprivileged", (thus reinforcing the idea that privilege is a good thing), "the disadvantaged" or some other political Newspeak, as if we could all be privileged and advantaged, there would be no privilege or advantage.

I suppose at least in the UK there has traditionally been this distinction between class and money, that you have impoverished aristocrats and rich chavs (another new word). In the US I think there is less that distinction, that money and class are more nearly aligned. Yet these distinctions are really rather arbitrary, From the money point of view I am definitely working class, I have no savings as such except my pension and the house I own, it is a matter of outlook more than anything, what you expect from life.

I certainly noticed at university (nearly 25 years ago) there was quite a split, people who had worked before going to university or come through the state education system, done night school etc, felt themselves lucky to be there and worked hard, those whose mummy and daddy paid for it and had never worked kinda just expected to go to university, didn't work hard, and expected to fall into a decent job at the end of it all. Whether that is a "class" thing I don't know, but it has something to do with the outlook you have on life, what your expectations are, whatyou expect life to give you and what you give back. Orwell puts it similarly, that a middle class person goes through life with an expectation of being dealt a fair hand, whereas a working class person doesn't. (My paraphrase.)

I suppose one way to ask is "who are the upper class, then?" Is Donald Trump upper class, or any class? The British Queen and other royalty? "Celebrities"? I don't think we have a "classless society", there is still some kind of caste system and invisible barriers everywhere (try being Roma in Hungary, for example) but the nature of those "class divisions" seems to change over time and space

G. B. Shaw (who was Irish when that was still British, but lived much of his life in England) said I think in the preface to Pygmalion that every Englishman was "branded on the tongue" i.e. you can tell their class by their accent, and I think that is still true. I have a very cockney accent and I know it is a disadvantage. I can posh up if necessary but I don't see why I should have to, beyond being comprehensible to all the foreigners around here (but then I make their life a bit easier by speaking in Hungarian, which I do not speak in a cockney accent).

Perhaps after all it is something of a meaningless term now. "We are all middle class" is the same as saying "there is no such thing as class".

Gosh that's a bit deep for a Friday, especially when it's payday.

I didn't go to University, yet I went to 2 public schools. I owned my first house at the age of 18. By the time I was 25 I was mortgage free.

Maybe it might be different now buying a house in the UK, but if you buy at auctions and do your homework, plus hard work you can get on the property ladder.

Not sure what middle class is these days either.
I would say my cousins are higher middle class, my bro is middle class and most of the rest are working class.
One lives in Georgia in a lovely Tudor style custom home on a lake which is shared by about 4 other homes.Not too shabby.
My cousins have huge beautiful homes in good areas of the US, have all the toys anyone would want, one cuz has himself a new bright red Lotus car, they travel every year all over the world.
Their kids were all sent to great schools too.
When my cousin visited me here in Hungary he showed us photos of his nice home in Conn. He did a big remodel on it, put in a nice bar and redid his kitchen. When he told me his fridge alone cost over $8,000, I knew he was out of my league, or rather I was out of his! No matter we still are fam.
One cuz's girl has a nice vacation house in a lake area of N Ca.Lots of horses etc.
I am not envious  at all, I know I can stay with them anytime I wish to without a care.
Wealthier people love their show pony relations.


Guess my bro and his wife together with their long time airline jobs make a bit over $200,000 a year.
I know he was making $85.000 about 20 years back so he must of gotten a raise sometimes during the 20 years.
His wife is now a supervisor with American Airlines.
No money worries for them , her 3 kids are all grown up and done with college.
By those standards I guess I am the poor relations...
My older sister needs help paying for her dental work, a few of us dropped the ball it seems.
Oh well, money never meant all that much to me.

SimonTrew wrote:

....

Personally I regard this  as reasonably fair, as paying back-taxes for my own taxpayer-funded education, healthcare etc when I was a child. But in a purely capitalist system, why should I pay for other people's children? Why should I subsidise their reduced fares on public transport etc? Because, as a society, we (vaguely) encourage people to have children. But it is not as if thosen children will pay for my pension when they grow up, I am expected to save for that myself, since the state pension that I have been paying into for 30 years will be worth exactly 0 pence by the time I retire.

Bit of a narrow view. 

Those kids are the engineers, builders and doctors etc of the future who will provide services to you in your dotage. 

They will also pay into the tax system for redistribution into your pension.

The UK is a reasonable example - punish people for having kids and import people from elsewhere.  Not very ethical but very capitalist.

In the US it's every man for himself.
No free health care, no help was ever given or taken by my mother when she was alone with 4 kids. She got a job and we ate pork and beans allot.
Poor but self relient.Alone with 4 kids she could of received allot of gov. aid but she was too proud and never wanted us to grow up on hand outs Not sure how things would of turned out over time if my step- dad didn't come into the picture.
Even so, 6 kids, 4 that wen't his he wasn't about to spoil us much.
Can hold ones head up knowing we never took a hand out or expected one.
I will say though seeing how well off all my cousins on my father's side are makes me sometimes wonder how much different our lives would of been if we had stayed in Conn. near close family.
With all the cousins we have there in stable homes I am sure they would of stepped up at some point when my father acted up.
So much success with hard work from  all my many aunts and uncles children.
Think moving away from close family back in 1959 when it was pretty easy in the US to have a nice comfy life was a huge mistake on my parents part.
Mom was all alone in Ca. after her divorce with no family around to help her in any way.
Think she should of packed us all up and gone home to Conn.
Oh well, can't go backwards.

SimCityAT wrote:

I didn't go to University, yet I went to 2 public schools. I owned my first house at the age of 18. By the time I was 25 I was mortgage free.

Maybe it might be different now buying a house in the UK, but if you buy at auctions and do your homework, plus hard work you can get on the property ladder.

Being on the property ladder here and being on it there (in the UK) are very different things. 

I doubt we could ever afford to return to the UK.  Not that I want to but it's so ludicrously expensive there, people are utterly shut out.  It's not even an option. 

One of my older kids and partner will probably never be able to afford to live in a house they own, unless they move to somewhere like a remote Scottish island and buy a ruin.  It's a shame for them.

I've got a lot of criticism of the system in the UK.  There's no social housing to speak of.  And a lot of people see their houses as their pensions due to house inflation which just creates a spiral or bubble and of course, there's no capital gains tax on main residence house sales.  That just creates a vicious circle encouraging people to trade up and increasing demand.  Like a pyramid scheme.  Maybe Brexit will break some of that bubble.

SimCityAT wrote:

I didn't go to University, yet I went to 2 public schools.

To be clear: "public school" in British English means "private school" in US English, "public school" in US English means "state-funded school" in British English. I presume you mean the British English.

It's an interesting point about university. I went when I was 20, did my degree .in two years working in the summer at my employer (no "gap year" nonsense then). I had done a four year apprenticeship and it was the next step, supported by my employer. I have always regarded a degree certificate as a passport. It will not get you the job, but it will get you the interview.

What is a crying shame is there are lots of talented, clever people out there for whom a university education is not suitable. My elder brother is an incredibly practical, talented and clever man, can fix anything, do anything, but he is not much of a book-learner. He just doesn't learn that way. I do, which is fortunate for me, I can get the paperwork without hardly any revision, explanation etc I just naturally kinda understand things the first time. There is no way my brother would get a degree. It is just not the kind of education that suits him.

Yet now in the UK everyone is being forced into a university education. Successive UK governments of several colours have paid lip service to vocational education but the fact is that employers want to see a BSc or in some fields MBA or PhD after your name, or you are on the reject pile. So perhaps the real class division these days is "those people who have a degree, and those who don't"?

In Hungary I think it is even worse, in that if you have the OKlevel it means that you can do something, if you don't, you can't. A much bigger emphasis on having the Oklevel, the certificate, in the UK I have never been asked for my certificates, presumably on the grounds that either I am being honest, or that if I am lying but can actually do the job then who cares? (Of course any legally-required certificate where the safety of others is an important part of the job  must be demanded). In Hungary, I have worked with so many incompetents who have certificates coming out of their backsides, yet cannot do the simplest part of the job. Nobody tests them on the job, they test them on their book-learning. It becomes doubly difficult because they then these academic types do not like being taught by someone who has few formal qualifications but loads of experience, and it seems to me that the Hungarian academic system is designed to teach people to accept whatever Teacher says, whereas in the UK one is expected much more to intelligently disagree with Teacher to show that you really do understand the essence of what is being taught.

I bought my first house when I was 22 with the aim to have it paid off by the time I was 30, I didn1t achieve that because I went to work in the US when I was 26 and decided to sell it. Took me another 18 years to buy a house, but then I have been moving around from place to place and renting made more sense, especially since I make sure I rent places where I can do a lot of minor renovations, redecorating etc with landlord's consent which suits everyone. Still, nice to have a place of my own. I must go out some time to get another pot of emulsion, was doing the hallway this week which was rather fiddly. Only the window recesses to go now, just ran out of emulsion.

SimonTrew wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

I didn't go to University, yet I went to 2 public schools.

To be clear: "public school" in British English means "private school" in US English, "public school" in US English means "state-funded school" in British English. I presume you mean the British English.

If you want to go down that avenue, I went to two Prep schools