Absolutely Anything Else

fluffy2560 wrote:

I doubt we could ever afford to return to the UK.  Not that I want to but it's so ludicrously expensive there, people are utterly shut out.  It's not even an option.

Same here. For twenty years I have been predicting a UK house price crash but it never seems to happen, this bubble never seems to burst. It will burst when interest rates rise - a rise from 0.25% to 0.5% is not a rise of 0.25%, it is a rise of 100%, you have doubled the interest rate. For people on an interest-only mortgage, or a repayment mortgage in its early years, that makes a very big difference to their monthly mortgage payments. Even doubling the base rate is probably not enough, but a good 1% base rate rise will really start hurting. Interest rates have been so low for so long, people have forgotten "Black Wednesday" and all that.

We have already apparently had one interest rate rise in Hungary but I took out a (small) fixed-rate mortgage on the very premise that interest rates can't fall much but can rise a lot. Of course you pay a bit above a variable rate, which is essentially an insurance premium (although not accounted for in that way).

SimonTrew wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

I didn't go to University, yet I went to 2 public schools.

To be clear: "public school" in British English means "private school" in US English, "public school" in US English means "state-funded school" in British English. I presume you mean the British English.

It's an interesting point about university. I went when I was 20, did my degree .in two years working in the summer at my employer (no "gap year" nonsense then). I had done a four year apprenticeship and it was the next step, supported by my employer. I have always regarded a degree certificate as a passport. It will not get you the job, but it will get you the interview.

What is a crying shame is there are lots of talented, clever people out there for whom a university education is not suitable. My elder brother is an incredibly practical, talented and clever man, can fix anything, do anything, but he is not much of a book-learner. He just doesn't learn that way. I do, which is fortunate for me, I can get the paperwork without hardly any revision, explanation etc I just naturally kinda understand things the first time. There is no way my brother would get a degree. It is just not the kind of education that suits him.

Yet now in the UK everyone is being forced into a university education. Successive UK governments of several colours have paid lip service to vocational education but the fact is that employers want to see a BSc or in some fields MBA or PhD after your name, or you are on the reject pile. So perhaps the real class division these days is "those people who have a degree, and those who don't"?

In Hungary I think it is even worse, in that if you have the OKlevel it means that you can do something, if you don't, you can't. A much bigger emphasis on having the Oklevel, the certificate, in the UK I have never been asked for my certificates, presumably on the grounds that either I am being honest, or that if I am lying but can actually do the job then who cares? (Of course any legally-required certificate where the safety of others is an important part of the job  must be demanded). In Hungary, I have worked with so many incompetents who have certificates coming out of their backsides, yet cannot do the simplest part of the job. Nobody tests them on the job, they test them on their book-learning. It becomes doubly difficult because they then these academic types do not like being taught by someone who has few formal qualifications but loads of experience, and it seems to me that the Hungarian academic system is designed to teach people to accept whatever Teacher says, whereas in the UK one is expected much more to intelligently disagree with Teacher to show that you really do understand the essence of what is being taught.

I bought my first house when I was 22 with the aim to have it paid off by the time I was 30, I didn1t achieve that because I went to work in the US when I was 26 and decided to sell it. Took me another 18 years to buy a house, but then I have been moving around from place to place and renting made more sense, especially since I make sure I rent places where I can do a lot of minor renovations, redecorating etc with landlord's consent which suits everyone. Still, nice to have a place of my own. I must go out some time to get another pot of emulsion, was doing the hallway this week which was rather fiddly. Only the window recesses to go now, just ran out of emulsion.

Working in Jersey, Channel Islands, gave me the footing. 2 years income tax-free and nice tips did the trick. But buying a house in Blackpool for 41k and selling it at 80k 2 years later, then buying another at auction.... renovating as I worked. My final house in the UK I bought for 163.000 GBP, sold for 172,000 GBP. That gave me the power to buy here. Even with the house, we are in now we have made money on, close to doubleing the value.

Without a degree or some very good job skill it seems a bit bleak for these younger people.
My step-dad moved from a coal mining town in Penn. where he saw no future in the mid 1950's, he was born late 1936 to a immigrant family.
His dad was from Ireland and his mom was from Czehoslovakia.
8 or 9 kids in the fam, he was the oldest.
He picked up all alone at 18 and went to S Ca. got hired at Lockheed and learned his trade there as a tool grinder.
Bought a house at about age 20 in Burbank and sent money for his sister, 2 brothers and mother to come live with him and he would help his bro to get a good job at Lockheed.
They spent all their time drinking in bars in Penn. since there was no work, they were alcoholics in their teens already.
Well they took his offer and came to Ca.
They refused to work however, he made enough to buy everyone food so why bother?
He gave them many chances but soon had to send everyone back home to Penn. because he was not going to be abused, he sold his home and got himself a small apt. and a nice Cadillac.
His brothers passed away in their mid 30's from drinking.
Can't help people who don't want to be helped I suppose is the moral of that tale.
He fell in love with my mom because he saw she was willing to work hard for her family and not sit on her bottom waiting for a handout.
After they married he made her stay home and relax, he thought she deserved a break in her life. I agree, she did need one.
My step- dad only had that one job as an adult, took about 2 years off to join the US Army, he flet it was his duty to serve his country.
Back then jobs were held for men who took off time to serve, not sure they still do that these days or not.
His job was waiting for him after his military service time.
Guess he was 28 when he bought his second home for us.
He wanted to buy my sister a home when she married but she and her husband didn't want it, such a different time in history, with my step-dads military service he could buy a second house with only $1. down payment!

SimCityAT wrote:

Working in Jersey, Channel Islands, gave me the footing. 2 years income tax-free and nice tips did the trick. But buying a house in Blackpool for 41k and selling it at 80k 2 years later, then buying another at auction.... renovating as I worked. My final house in the UK I bought for 163.000 GBP, sold for 172,000 GBP. That gave me the power to buy here. Even with the house, we are in now we have made money on, close to doubleing the value.

It's mickey mouse money of course until you realise it, either by selling it or using it as collateral for something else. That was a fairly modest profit on your last house, what about 6% before fees etc.

We got a fixer-upper here that was one step away from repossession and needs a lot of work, but is structurally sound and I can do most of the rest myself (except gas, which I just will not touch. It's illegal, will invalidate your insurance, and if you get it wrong it is not just you that is put in danger but your entire street. Get a professional in, even for a simple job). We bought it for about 100 sterling (35.5m forint) and is probably worth about 150 six months later, but it will take me another 18 months to get it really up to scratch, but it is also more attractive for not having a list of I think it was 13 creditors listed on the property all of whom had to be chased up and paid off, it was a lot of work to do that.

I guess that doesn't happen in the UK, things are not sold (at auction or otherwise) with a list of creditors? My name is not dropped in conveyancing circles, I am hardly a household word where chartered surveyors foregather, but I don't think in the UK you generally pass on a debt like that when you sell a private property (t auction or otherwise)? I don't see any reason legally why you couldn't, but I think it would be rather unusual, more likely that the bank repossesses it then puts it to auction or private sale after settling with the creditors, whereas here in Hungary, ours at least (a statistical sample of 1, I know) the bank was rather keen to sell it with the debts attached. (We were well aware of the debts.)

SimonTrew wrote:

....
Yet now in the UK everyone is being forced into a university education. Successive UK governments of several colours have paid lip service to vocational education but the fact is that employers want to see a BSc or in some fields MBA or PhD after your name, or you are on the reject pile. So perhaps the real class division these days is "those people who have a degree, and those who don't"?

In Hungary I think it is even worse, in that if you have the OKlevel it means that you can do something, if you don't, you can't. A much bigger emphasis on having the Oklevel, the certificate, in the UK I have never been asked for my certificates, presumably on the grounds that either I am being honest, or that if I am lying but can actually do the job then who cares? (Of course any legally-required certificate where the safety of others is an important part of the job  must be demanded). In Hungary, I have worked with so many incompetents who have certificates coming out of their backsides, yet cannot do the simplest part of the job.....

I regularly get asked for my certificates.  I don't bother with school ones.

However, I was once up for a short job where they wanted to know the grades for my O and A levels (US: High School Certificate?).   I was incredulous - how could that be relevant?  I'm in my 50s with more academic qualifications than you can shake a stick at but they were insistent. 

Never found out why even though I asked but I let them have a copy.  And I didn't get the job.   What did I do wrong?  Didn't like my metalwork project? Not very good at English?  Or quite good at French? Weird but perhaps it was a lucky escape if they thought that was really that important.  It did cross my mind it was some kind of test - like seeing if my record stood up.

Anyway, hereabouts, it's all academic posturing.  When I meet people for work one of the first things they do is try and triangulate you academically. I think they are working out if you are smarter than them.  And in my game we never put academic qualifications on business cards for precisely that reason - stop any oneupmanship.       Maybe from their perspective, it's like leveling the field.  Still don't understand the thinking. 

I should say here, kids have a school record book - Bizonylat - year by year showing academic progress.  I have been asked for that but of course in the British system, we don't have that concept so maybe that's one of the reasons they wanted my school certificates. 

Another thing I've noticed in some countries are "work books" which are like some kind of workers record book. This seems to be a German-Franco idea.  I also noticed they want to see that stuff in the Former Yugoslavia.  Never seen an example and completely alien thinking to me.

fluffy2560 wrote:

When I meet people for work one of the first things they do is try and triangulate you academically. I think they are working out if you are smarter than them.  And in my game we never put academic qualifications on business cards for precisely that reason - stop any oneupmanship.

Well, I agree they are trying to size you up, but there is a difference there between the UK and Hungary, too. In Hungary, you are respected for your intelligence, knowledge etc. In the UK it would be the opposite, you are despised if you show any sign of intelligence or know more about something than the person you are talking with.

The only time I ever use the letters after my name is on a CV/resumé, and on very rare occasions (I have done so on this forum) where the argument has run out of steam and I use them to put my foot down and say "I do actually know what I am talking about because I have this professional qualification" (not, usually, an academic qualification). I am not pompous enough to insist people call me "Doctor", and not just because I haven't a PhD. (I am always wary of people who have doctorates. "So, Miss X, why did you stay at university for another three years after graduating? Could you not find a job, or were you too lazy to look?" tends to be a good opening gambit at interview.. It depends on the subject. Chemists and physicists almost always have to have a PhD to be any good. Software engineers do not need a PhD, and if they have one, that often means they are too incompetent or self-centred to work in a commercial team.)

I think somewhere on one of those monster dot com kind of websites it went through the thing where I ended up having to put down two lengths of the swimming baths, those kind of sites are just absolutely intolerable. Especially as they tend to be multiple choice with a million and one options and none of them fits. Or the ask when you graduated from high school. In the UK they only thing you graduate from is university, you don't graduate from kindergarten/nursery  school or middle school or senior school or community college or Borstal or anything else. But you have to write something in.

There is absolutely no point lieing on a CV/resumé - it is grounds for instant dismissal if you are found out, and I would dismiss the liar, not because of the lie itself, but how can I trust them about anything else they said? Yet sometimes I am kinda forced to lie through these large jobsearch engines. Nowadays I just keep in touch with a select few small specialist recruiters who I know and trust.

My husband still has his old HU workbook somewhere from the 1960's.
Funny they still use them here.
I am so mad at the weather reports, was going to take a dip today but the forecast was rain, still waiting for it to pour.
Oh well, might just take my chances in the future rain or shine and not listen to the weather reports.

Funny story, or maybe you had to be there to see how lame and funny and so Hungarian the situation was.
Few days back we shopped at Tesco.
Seems lately they have down sized their work force, carts are not always available, sometimes I just bring one up from the parking lot myself since the store often runs out inside before they send someone to bring them up.
Ok so only 2 clerks were working the check out, self service had a line too.
We had too many items to go self serve, they always mess up on us and wasn't in the mood to wait for help if the machine didn't work.
Got in one of the long lines and waited our turn to check out with the clerk.
Of course it always happens to me...
Was pulling the cart to the end of the counter to pack up while my husband keeps an eye on the items and helps pull the items down to me.
I have it down pat, am done packing and loading before it's even time to pay up.
This time however some super chubby 240 lbs women just walks to the end of my counter, opens up a choco-ice cream on a stick and starts up a conversation with the clerk while she is checking out our items.
Had to clear my throat for her to move a whole 18 inches away, still sucking on her stick and talking at the same time to the clerk.
Finally she was half done with her treat  must of finally taken the clue from my eye rolling and talking in English and moving my two bags under her nose , so she walked off...
Only in Hungary or God knows where would that happen.
In the states if a clerk did that they would be called to the managers office for rudeness.
Must be getting desperate here to find workers?
All I could think was, "why me"?

fluffy2560 wrote:

I'm in my 50s with more academic qualifications than you can shake a stick at...

... it's all academic posturing.  When I meet people for work one of the first things they do is try and triangulate you academically.

For that, presumably, they would need at least three sticks. They could probably tell you that stick population density is inversely correlated with afforestation,  the history of stick production in late 19th century Austria-Hungary, also how sticks support catgut in the making of Stradivari's violin bows, that canis domesticus responds in a Pavlovian manner to the parabolic arc of a stick ejected from its owner's hand, and that a stick of a given weight, when shaken, will have a period of shakiness directly proportional to the length of the stick, and that the "stick shaker" is a device fitted to the throttle control of an aircraft to warn the pilot of a stall condition.

What they will not be able to do is find, shave, or shake a stick.

In the last Labour government, people were forced into Uni for degrees, and some degrees created were just stupid and pointless.

Now does someone with a degree no matter what it is, make them a better person than for a job than someone that doesn't?

SimCityAT wrote:

In the last Labour government, people were forced into Uni for degrees, and some degrees created were just stupid and pointless.

Now does someone with a degree no matter what it is, make them a better person than for a job than someone that doesn't?

In my opinion, of two people aged 25, the one without the degree will be better at the job. The one with the British degree has taken three or four years depending on what part of the UK they are from and what degree they are pretending to study, plus perhaps a "gap year" whatever that is, I think it means neither working nor learning. So the 25 year old with a degree has never actually done any work. The first year is spent just teaching them how to work as part of a team because all their education was really of them working as an individual.

The one without the degree will have worked as part of the team, built up practical experience in their field, knows how to turn up on time, is prepared to roll her sleeves up. I would take, all other things being equal, the 25-year-old without a degree against the 25-year-old with a degree any time.

The difficulty really is that recruiters - internal or external - tend to have degrees. They put down "BSc or above" etc as the minimum requirement regardless of what the employer (of which I am often the proxy as the first-line interviewer) has actually told them. I have probably done about a five thousand interviews as first-line interviewer and you do not believe the amount of rubbish the big boys send you, with a blunderbuss approach. One recruiter at one of these sheep-dip firms asked me once, "how many candidate CVs shall I send you? Fifty? A Hundred?".

"No. Just send me one. Send me the right one. I don't want the other ninety-nine."

I had forgotten I used to call it a sheep-dip. They treat their candidates like sheep and the potential employer as someone who really regards all of them as sheep, pretty much the same, put them through the dip, sooner or later the employer will get bored and hire one of them.

Please don't get me wrong, the candidates might be very good for somebody else. It is not the candidate's fault. It's the recruiter's fault.

SimCityAT wrote:

In the last Labour government, people were forced into Uni for degrees, and some degrees created were just stupid and pointless.

Now does someone with a degree no matter what it is, make them a better person than for a job than someone that doesn't?

Obviously you don't want someone qualified as a plumber drilling into your teeth.  At least it shows a minimum standard of knowledge.  On the other hand, call centre worker needing a degree is almost a waste of time. 

I hired some people previously to staff "helpdesks".  They were formerly receptionists in international hotels.  They were used to handling angry selfish people.  This was far more important than knowledge of the actual subject.  In that institution, we were required to use "character" rather than academia as a more important criteria for hiring at that level.  It worked very well!

But Horse Psychologist or The Beatles for a Ph.D degree, hmmmmmm...I don't think so!

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

In the last Labour government, people were forced into Uni for degrees, and some degrees created were just stupid and pointless.

Now does someone with a degree no matter what it is, make them a better person than for a job than someone that doesn't?

Obviously you don't want someone qualified as a plumber drilling into your teeth.  At least it shows a minimum standard of knowledge

All a degree shows is the knowledge of how to get a degree. Just as all an IQ test shows is the knowledge of how to pass IQ tests. There is a vast difference between knowledge and intellegence or "character" as you put it below the bit I quote above, empathy one might say.

As for having particular skills, I don't think even if you go down to specialisms that is going to help much. I have a BSc in Computation because that is what UMIST called it. That is not what any other university in the UK calls it, they call it Computer Science. So am I going to find Computation on their drop-down list? I am lucky if I can find "Software Engineer". So these stupid monsterreed things have their prepared list of job titles that don't fit how I, let's be all fairy about it, "self-identify", I am an engineer because I am a bloody chartered engineer I am not a programmer. Computer programming is the easy part of the job, that should be so natural it should be like handwriting or typing or making a simple lobster thermidor, it should be that you can do it in your sleep. Yet these jobsearch engines - and beyond specialist recruiters there is no other way these days - already eject people because they don't fit into their nice database. I imagine if a vacancy for British Monarch became available, somehow Prince Charles wouldn't get it as having no experience.

(King Zog of Albania got the job by replying to a recruitment advert in the London Times, if I remember correctly.)

fluffy2560 wrote:

I hired some people previously to staff "helpdesks".  They were formerly receptionists in international hotels.  They were used to handling angry selfish people.  This was far more important than knowledge of the actual subject.  In that institution, we were required to use "character" rather than academia as a more important criteria for hiring at that level.  It worked very well!!

I'd be interested to know how you interviewed people for those roles.

My late father once went for an interview and the interviewer just swore and shouted at him, and my Dad just put his jacket back on and walked out the door. The interviewer stopped and said to him Fred, I just wanted to see how you reacted when someone is shouting and swearing. My father - who was quite familiar with a swear and cuss but would keep them for special occasions - said to him, well now you know. I don't want to work with someone who is shouting and bawling all day rather than getting any work done. Ah, but I was just testing you. Well you have, and you have your answer. Good-bye.

Like his son, my Dad was a pretty mild-mannered man who would not put up with bullshit. So he just walked out. I would do the same, and I have done the same. I have walked off jobs when I have lost confidence in the employer. It is a two-way street and I can find work easier than they can find good employees. But then you need to have a certain amount of self-confidence to be able to do that.

Perhaps self-confidence is not the right word. Self-righteousness, bravado, stupidity, or cantankerousness would also be fairly good fits. But you get one life and I will not work for anyone who treats me with disrespect. I do not expect to be kow-towed to, but I do expect to have the minimal level of human decency that we each should treat each other with. I expect it of the teams I lead, I expect it of the bosses I report to, I expect to treat the receptionist politely and nicely and the cleaners and the mechanics in their oily blues and whoever, and I expect it of myself. We should respect each other, full stop, period. THat is not some wishy-washy Human Resources nonsense. A workplace is just such a much nicer, more efficient, happier, more profitable place when everyone respects each other and works together.

Although I am technically excellent in many ways, my main skill is getting a team to work together. At home, at work, whatever, I am very good at getting a team to work together. I have no formal training in it. I know where it comes from, it comes from working behind a bar in a local pub for nine years as a bit of extra while buying my first house. You get all sorts, people who get on, people who don't, in a local pub in a small space and you have to cajole and tell jokes and ask about their day and how's the wife and so on. Pullling pints is easy (I do actually have a bar-cellarman certificate for that matter, but it doesn't go on my CV), interacting with people is what a local pub teaches you. I would run it when the landlords were on holiday I was offered my own pub but the money is rubbish really, even with live-in accommodation etc. But it really teaches you "human interaction skills" as I imagine the HR lot call it.

Well at the end of the day a degree proves nothing in class.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I hired some people previously to staff "helpdesks".  They were formerly receptionists in international hotels.  They were used to handling angry selfish people.  This was far more important than knowledge of the actual subject.  In that institution, we were required to use "character" rather than academia as a more important criteria for hiring at that level.  It worked very well!!

I'd be interested to know how you interviewed people for those roles.

....

It wasn't difficult, we looked at the CV, looked at the person, asked about the interests and general questions about their lives. We weren't looking actually at any of that actually.  We asked one or two probing questions.    We were just looking at their reactions,  demeanor, general attitude, presentation and manners.  In some ways, it was more an audition than an interview.   

I had made a check list which scored the person on a scale of 1-5 in various categories.   It was quite helpful in weeding out some of the no hopers but some of the others were relatively low scoring but incredibly likeable intuitively communicative people which we eventually agreed was more important than most of the criteria I'd set down.  So we took a punt on some of them.

The environment was very tough with some very aggressive, self-important, testosterone driven, profit-earning, my dick is bigger than yours type maniacs working there.  If one of them went ballistic,  the helpdesk person would have to have sufficient client management skills to calm them down while assuring someone was on the way to help them fix their problem as fast as possible.  Worked out OK generally. 

One of the women I hired graduated after some training from that basic answer the phone, triage and allocation of calls to joining the maniacs upstairs.   I believe she brought a sudden old-school politeness to those nutters.

I know we are drifting off topic but I thought I would put down some interview hints. I am sure fluffy may want to agree or disagree with these.

1. As the interviewee, remember that ultimately you are in control. The employer has gone to a lot of effort to get you to the interview. What the interviewer is looking for is not reasons to reject you, but reasons to accept you. It saves the interviewer an awful amount of effort if you don't talk yourself out of it.

2. You want the job. In an hour or two, you can leave, say, I never want to work there, and that's it. While you are there, you want the job. It is quite frequent that an interviewer will say, I don't think you are quite suitable for this role, but we have another role that you might fit much better... be enthusiastic about the company as much as the role.

3. Do your homework. The answer to the question "have you seen our website?" should not be "No". learn something about the company. You have Internet, right? Have some questions that the website doesn't answer. "Perhaps this is commercial in-confidence, but I couldn't find anything on your website about your new mission to turn calamari into fibre optic cable, although I read something unreliable on Google News...."

4. Dress smartly. This is not an option. Unless definitely told otherwise that you may come in casual dress, pretend you are going to a wedding. Most interviewers do not give a toss how you dress in real life (unless you need specialist clothing to protect you from hazards such as concentrated acid or belligerent customers, of course). They care that you can be bothered to make the effort, that you see the occasion as significant.

5. Arrive on time. Absolutely no excuses. If a whale falls on your train, you have a mobile phone in your pocket. Phone them and explain the unavoidable delay. Do not just turn up late. Aim to arrive 15 minutes before the start of the interview. If it's fairly local, do a test run the day before - you may have to get security cards, sign in, and so forth.

6. Have a copy of your CV/resumé. They get mangled by recruiters, different file formats, and 101 other things. Again, this is usually overlooked, but make sure you have a copy of your own CV, that way any discrepancies, you can give the interviewer a true copy. Many incompetent interviewers do not actually bring a copy of your own CV. This is a bad sign, but if the interviewer is some incompetent from HR they may not be the competent person you are actually working for, so don't give up immediately. You already got one brownie point by giving them a copy of your own CV.

7. Don't chew gum. Have tea, coffee or water before you go into the interview, and if asked say you just had one. Make sure you have emptied your bladder before going into the building. In the UK you will usually find toilets in the reception area of companies, not so much in Hungary. So don't expect that you can adjust your tie or dress while waiting in reception. First impressions count.

8. Answer questions briefly. Smile. Wait for the interviewer to ask you to give examples, and so on.

9. Switch your mobile phone off. OFF. Not on silent. OFF. Do not take it out of your pocket or handbag. You are 100% devoted to the interviewer for the duration of the interview. If there is really some pressing need for you to have it on, tell that to the interviwer apologetically at the start of the interview. But it would be better to deal with the pressing need and rearrange the interview.

10. Have a pen and paper. Whenever anyone tells you her or his name, write it on the pad, together with any other notesm because people do not outside of costume dramas refer to each other by name all the time. It means you can start your answers, "Yes, Sandor" or "Yes, Imre" and this creates a bond that they are not aware of. It doesn't matter that much if you get the wrong name.

I used to ask the interviewer "do you mind if I take notes?" now I think sod that, I am an engineer, I am expected to take notes, so I don't bother to ask nowadays. I just take notes anyway.

11. Exactly once, answer a question with "No", never more. This is surprisingly easy if you practice. "Have you ever done bricklaying in Mongolia?" "I"ve often wondered about whether you would need a thicker cement for it to set properly in their cold winter climate". This is not so much about avoiding the question, but about showing how positive you are and that you can think in your feet. But, it is far better to say ""I don't know" than outright lie.

12. A good "I don't know", said as if suggesting you have weighed both sides of the argument and cannot quite decide, is far better than the blatant statement that you don't know. I.... don't.... know....

fluffy2560 wrote:

I believe she brought a sudden old-school politeness to those nutters.

I can believe that. I worked for a defence company that transmogrified from Marconi to working doing lots of RF stuff, testing of mobile phones and wireless networks and all that malarkey, it was OK quite technically interesting. They had this policy of "respect", this was possibly instituted about two years before I started work there. The strange thing is, in a way, nobody sniggered at it, as you might have expected. Maybe the sniggers died out after a few months.

But people respected each other, they really did. Nobody swore, and not because they kinda caught it in their throat, it just wasn't a habit any more. Everyone from the girls who worked in the canteen, to the cleaners, to the lab staff in the clean rooms on the shop floor, the techs and the storeman (who enjoyed Hungarian prices for his tobacco, courtesy of me, while I never went short of an oscilloscope when I needed one in a hurry), treated each other with respect. It is amazing how much just cutting out everyday swearing out of the workplace does it. Yes, we did have the occasional F or B or whatever, but it was very rare. It completely changes the atmosphere. The only ever negative I heard was "of course the women were opposed to it" (I mean to swearing, not the ban on it),  I don1t believe that, it is rather a sexist remark, because I have known plenty of women who can swear like it has just come off the ration. But it is amazing how genuinely the atmosphere improves when people do not swear. After a while they do not do it because they are told to, they do it because they don't need to. The most telling thing, I think, is that when we would go out for a smoke break, nobody in the smoker's club would swear kinda "off duty" either. It was just a habit that we had broken.

One reason I left my last job is my boss was always swearing. Not much I can do about that as he owns the company. He would swear in Hungarian and in English. He is a very mild mannered man, just swears a lot. Once in an email I said that a particular bit of code is "a bit of a whore" in that it is being used everywhere rather than being nicely kept to itself, and he objected to that as being "offensive to women". Well I nearily fainted. As if male prostitutes did not exist, as if it wasn't a decent metaphor, as if "whore" was a swear-word when he must F and blind 200 times a day. He is a very nice man, he is just completely deaf to his own swearing. When he says "What does Ramya think when you write that?" (Ramya is a married indian woman of about 30 I imagine, who I was mentoring kinda unofficially as you do in small companies, no kinda structured HR nonsense programme just showing someone the ropes etc) I don't think she would think anything of it beyond the metaphor... what does she think about your f'ing and blinding?

His last company went bust and this current company will go bust. He is crossing the chasm, has 20 staff. I have led 20 staff before in a company of 30 . He hasn't. But if you have a right-hand man, and I told him from the outset I do not want your job but I am a damned good right-hand man, then you have to listen to your right-hand man. He won't listen, so he will go bust.

fluffy2560 wrote:

In some ways, it was more an audition than an interview.

What's the difference?

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

In some ways, it was more an audition than an interview.

What's the difference?

Not much really other than the singing and dancing.  We weren't that formal about it anyway.  We'd have taken into account singing and dancing as a life skill.

No psychometric babble, IQ tests, essay writing* more about being level headed, responsible and calm and communicative.

* I was at BT (British Telecom) and we had to write an quasi essay cum report!  I can see why they did it but I wasn't being interviewed for that kind of thing.

SimonTrew wrote:

....

But people respected each other, they really did. Nobody swore, and not because they kinda caught
His last company went bust and this current company will go bust. He is crossing the chasm, has 20 staff. I have led 20 staff before in a company of 30 . He hasn't. But if you have a right-hand man, and I told him from the outset I do not want your job but I am a damned good right-hand man, then you have to listen to your right-hand man. He won't listen, so he will go bust.

Actually that's what they say in the military.  A platoon (or RAF speak: flight) is a about 30 people, split into sections.  The section is led by a Lance Corporal, then above that, there's are Sargents and then the Officer (Lieutenant or in RAF: Pilot Officer).  You get some Officer with a year's Officer training working with NCOs who have been in for years and know the ropes.  Everyone is being tested all the time in exercises.   But when I was on a course once, one of the Sargents said a Lieutenant who doesn't listen to his NCOs is a fool.   

Quite right really.

BTW, not in the general theme at the moment, but at about 22h, there's going to be the eclipse of the moon - a blood red moon.  I believe it will be visible to the South-South-East and in the same general direction, you will be able to see Mars very brightly.  I'm looking out the window and it's cloudy!  I mean, come on WTF. 

It could be a cover for greater things.   Maybe I should just  remind people what could happen if there's an event like this. Things happen as shown in these documentaries - War of the Worlds and Day of the Triffids.


Pass it on!

I saw it tonight, in fact, it will be the brightest it will be this century. Nothing special but at least I can say I saw it.

Was thinking of going out for a walk in a clear area to look at the moon but with all those clouds we decided to skip it.
Once in a lifetime opportunity, not the first one I've missed.
No biggie, was probably a night of some sort of rituals for many cults.
Don't want to go anywhere near that sort of dark energy.

Looks like summer is on next week.


August is always a killer month in Hungary, hot and humid.
Short summer but still...

I must write my cousin soon, he moved back to the US a few months ago after 10 year of living in a rain forest area in the Philippines.
Lives in New Mexico now where they hardly ever see a drop of rain.
Must be a shock to his system.
Wonder if he is OK about moving back to the states now that he and his wife have settled in a bit and found their own place to live.
I am  sure the sticker prices have shocked him, food, rent etc.
I asked him why he moved back, he did it for his wife, she wanted to experience working and living in the US.
OK, some people need to learn the hard way I suppose, sounds like they had a peaceful live in Asia without working.

Speaking of swearing bosses.
Only had it happen once so I quit the job.
I was offered my very first casino dealing job from my school at a mid level casino that sort of scared me to think about working there.
I didn't feel ready enough for the "big time".
I decided to go the traditional  route like most people do and start at the bottom at a far off casino in Boulder city.
Guess the school saw something in me that I hadn't seen in myself , not sure why they put in a good word for me at the better casino, guess my being myself, a bit of "class and a bit of an ass" was what is a good combo in personality for a casino job.
Friendly, serious but cool at the same time, need to keep a cool head and not over react when being a dealer, see nothing, say nothing and remember nothing....
Anyways I worked only 4 days at the low level casino, it was too low brow for me after all.
My fellow new dealers were very nice there but the bosses, wow what a crew they were!
Off way out of town casino had to bring in every penny they could get off the customers.
Some nice older man came in every night and played, usually he lost about $600. to $800. a night so they liked to see him, one of their best customers and a regular.
One night, God forbid, he was actually winning for once and not dumping his money.
The one old style boss, he seemed like a character from a gangsta  movie, had all of us new dealers take a shot and deal to the old man. He thought with each new shuffle the cards would turn to the casinos favor, really a low move to do to that man.Literally stacking the cards against him.
The female boss was standing near by coaching everyone first, told us all to get back ever single green chip he had, those were worth $25. each. Such a cheap casino that that was the largest chip they had! Other casinos have $100. $1,000, $10,000 chips in the racks but $25, was the limit at this place( some casinos have million dollar chips as well)
Ok so everyone got about 10 mins to deal to this man.
He kept on winning and winning, we dealers actually were on his side because he always tipped us and was tipping big this night.
Finally the boss grabbed the deck of cards out of one dealers hands , looked at all of us standing there and screamed at us, None of you SHI*'S" know how to shuffle"!
Well right then and there I decided to leave that dump and go to the mid level casino.
Not suppose to treat people like that.
The old man won allot that night, glad to see that.
Probably gave it all back the next night, can't figure out why they were so upset at seeing someone win for once.
I was glad to start at the other casino, made more in tips in one night then a week of working at the dumpy casino in Boulder plus it was a short drive from home and I was put on day shift not nights.winner winner, lobster dinner!!

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Looks like a thunderstorm is coming.

Had that yesterday and today both after hot days 30°C+

It's fun to see the UK moaning about the weather and how hot it is with hosepipe bans. Trains in a mess because the tracks are buckling, motorways are melting under the heat. Well, 33°C / 37°C is not fun if you are not used to that kind of heat. But here in August, we have been hitting 40°C for the last few years.

Absolutely.  Serious but laughable to hear the stories of trains breaking down at the Eurostar terminal.  Global warming at it's finest.   

I expect there will be a rush to get airco now in the UK and then, it won't be hot again for another 20 years although I heard the trend is for warmer weather.

I believe the South Coast of the UK will be like the Med and the South of France will be almost desert like.  At least then, British wine might have some credibility.  Not trolling, just remembering the days of "Concorde", British wine.

So the heat was a problem, now its because of rain and thunderstorms!


https://news.sky.com/story/five-hour-de … r-11451889

Stick a few more degrees on that, so glad I cut the lawn yesterday!

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Was thinking of going out for a walk in a clear area to look at the moon but with all those clouds we decided to skip it.
Once in a lifetime opportunity, not the first one I've missed.
No biggie, was probably a night of some sort of rituals for many cults.
Don't want to go anywhere near that sort of dark energy.

Looks like summer is on next week.


August is always a killer month in Hungary, hot and humid.
Short summer but still...

.....

We planned to watch it but got outside and it was cloudy to the South East and hopeless.  Couldn't see a thing.   We were looking forward to a bit of rain to clear the air but we got few spots, then nothing.  All the big black menacing clouds disappeared.

The Mars trajectory should last some more days and perhaps the clouds will scoot away today for a good view.  Not every day Mars comes a-visiting.

fluffy2560 wrote:

BTW, not in the general theme at the moment, but at about 22h, there's going to be the eclipse of the moon - a blood red moon.

Like almost all such celestial events that I want to see.... where I live, the nights seem to be "unexpected" cloudy and overcast. So I miss it. 

However, I did see the Mars Moon juxtaposition the night before at 1:30 AM, which was amazingly clear for a change, and that was nice to see. And I got a blood red moon view that morning as the moon set at 4:30 AM. Not an eclipse caused color -- just more atmosphere scattering the light which also can give the moon a red tint. There are some benefits to having insomnia.

Insomnia is a horrible thing to suffer.
Stress is a huge reason I think for the problem.
Thankfully I usually sleep like I am in a coma but have had insomnia in the past.
Had to once so badly because of my work hours, worked from 8pm to 4 am, didn't get to bed before 5:30 am.
Suffered for months and finally had to quit my job, just couldn't get into being a day sleeper.
Lead to depression and always feeling ill.
I give a hat's off to anyone who works nights.
Maybe some light stretching exercises a couple of hours before bedtime and shutting off all electric equipment might help.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Insomnia is a horrible thing to suffer...
I give a hat's off to anyone who works nights.

I actually prefer working nights. People have different rhythms and I am never at my best in the morning. I used to work 10pm to 6am, we were short of real equipment to test things on so I would do my eight hours testing overnight, leave the logs so when the day shift got in they could take that and run with it at 8am, and someone else would do 2pm to 10pm,. to maximise the use of scarse equipment. I really liked the 10pm to 6am shift because there is nobody about to bother you and waste your time, you can just get on with the job in hand. And at 6am it is (depending on the time of year, all of the British Isles being a bit further north than than the 49th parallel) kinda getting light, get a breakfast, do some shopping before everyone else is awake.

I liked it when I worked in Houston, because of the six hour time difference with the UK I would generally be awake at 2am or 3am the first couple of days after travelling, and supermarket shopping at 3am on a Thursday morning is far more pleasant than at 9am on a  Saturday.

Plus I got time and a third for working shifts It doesn't suit everyone but I do my best work in the middle of the night when I am on my own and can concentrate. Once the Shipping Forecast comes on the wireless at 5.45am UK time, that must mean it is time to down tools, put the kettle on and make a bacon sandwich, then you have the whole day when everyone else is out at work and the shops are quiet (and open).

I love being kinda nocturnal because you have the whole city to yourself. You can walk around the middle of Budapest at 3am and there is hardly anyone around and it is yours, just yours, for a couple of hours until everyone else wakes up.

Main thing I have to be sure of is that there is plenty of tobacco cos the nearest non-stop fag shop is a good half an hour's walk each way and the night buses are not very frequent. What is even worse is having plenty of tobacco and running out of cigarette papers. Then I turn into Tantalus.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Insomnia is a horrible thing to suffer.
Stress is a huge reason I think for the problem.
Thankfully I usually sleep like I am in a coma but have had insomnia in the past.
Had to once so badly because of my work hours, worked from 8pm to 4 am, didn't get to bed before 5:30 am.
Suffered for months and finally had to quit my job, just couldn't get into being a day sleeper.
Lead to depression and always feeling ill.
I give a hat's off to anyone who works nights.
Maybe some light stretching exercises a couple of hours before bedtime and shutting off all electric equipment might help.

Really?  We've always been surrounded by electromagnetic fields, natural or otherwise. Lightning, radiation from the sun etc.

We had a HU family gathering with about 15 people yesterday and by the time they all left and after cleaning up it was 2am.  There was a lot of boozing going on. 

What I found works best to do is not drink any alcohol close to bed time.  While it seems to assist with sleeping it's not the same quality sleep as one gets from proper, natural sleep.   

And it's a lot nicer in the morning! 

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Insomnia is a horrible thing to suffer.

I don't mind it. As Benjamin Franklin said, "There will be sleeping enough in the grave."

If I can not sleep, i just get up and do something. Often I just read. Or as I did the other night, go outside, look at the moon, get some fresh air. Then go back to bed. I drop off rather quickly then. The worst thing one can do with insomnia is to fight it.

klsallee wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Insomnia is a horrible thing to suffer.

I don't mind it. As Benjamin Franklin said, "There will be sleeping enough in the grave."

If I can not sleep, i just get up and do something. Often I just read. Or as I did the other night, go outside, look at the moon, get some fresh air. Then go back to bed. I drop off rather quickly then. The worst thing one can do with insomnia is to fight it.

One cure for insomnia is military exercises.  Or seriously hard work.

I came back home once from an exercise taking place in Denmark and in the North of England during which we'd not slept properly for days - lying in wait in ditches and fields and being "attacked" and "ambushing" others.  I fell on my bed with my kit on, woke up 6h later, got undressed, woke up 12h later, ate something, then slept again for another 6h.   Basically I missed a whole day.

I worked with a guy who was in the Navy he told me he was in his car coming back from some seriously intense exercises and he said he fell asleep at the wheel of his car while stationary. He was apparently incoherent and eventually he was taken to a hospital. 

He was there about 3-4 days and basically all he did was sleep and eat.  I asked if he felt better by the end of that time and he said all he felt was "normal".  I thought he'd say he felt at least refreshed.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Really?  We've always been surrounded by electromagnetic fields, natural or otherwise. Lightning, radiation from the sun etc.

Yes that sun is always emitting so much electromagnetic radiation, if you take a picture from space with the right kind of camera then you get an image where literally half the planet at any one time glows and warms up because of exohelioradiation. This seems to happen daily, and meteorologists and astronomers seem powerless against its harmful rays. This is a global problem that causes temperatures to rise and is a perennial cause of climate change. The sun is also a major cause of skin cancer.

Obviously we should turn off the sun for the long-term benefit of our planet.

SimonTrew wrote:

.....

Obviously we should turn off the sun for the long-term benefit of our planet.

Why don't we just adapt to having a harder resistant exoskeleton??

fluffy2560 wrote:

[
Why don't we just adapt to having a harder resistant exoskeleton??

Yeah, that's what cochineal beetles said, and look what happens to them, Let alone where good old-fashioned shellac comes from.

Whatever award that actor just won, he doesn't seem too happy about it. Or should I get new spectacles?

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

.....

Obviously we should turn off the sun for the long-term benefit of our planet.

Why don't we just adapt to having a harder resistant exoskeleton??

There is an easier solution and that is to change the tilt of the Earth's axis. My mate Archimedes and I had a chat, and apparently all we need is a very long lever and some kind of fulcrum. I have some scrap metal on, er, indefinite-term loan from MÁV, the Hungarian State Railways (I borrowed in a permanent way their permanent way), so I think we are okay on the lever front, so if you can come up with the fulcrum I think should all be sorted.

When I lived in Texas I used to listen in my chauffeur-driven pickup truck to Country Rock 103 which was kinda easy listening country rock music, some wrist-slashers and some kinda more upbeat, nice kind of mix. One of the things I used to like was the station idents which had a certain amount of tongue in cheek.

"Country Rock 103. Of all the stations in Texas, we're one of them".
"Country Rock 103. Broadcasting from a very tall aerial, in a very big field".
"Country Rock 103. Now to Sam for the weather, he talks a lot about the weather but never seems to do anything about it"

Texans have a very kind of British sense of humour really, very sardonic.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

.....

Obviously we should turn off the sun for the long-term benefit of our planet.

Why don't we just adapt to having a harder resistant exoskeleton??

There is an easier solution and that is to change the tilt of the Earth's axis. My mate Archimedes and I had a chat, and apparently all we need is a very long lever and some kind of fulcrum. I have some scrap metal on, er, indefinite-term loan from MÁV, the Hungarian State Railways (I borrowed in a permanent way their permanent way), so I think we are okay on the lever front, so if you can come up with the fulcrum I think should all be sorted.

Have you thought it through?

I think that's risky - like bringing asteroids onto the earth to mine which would slow down the rotation of the earth (i.e. increase mass). All the train timetables will need to be rewritten or we only work with atomic clocks.  But we'd need anti-gravity shoes if it got extreme. 

But if you change angle either way, someone is going to get increased exposure to UV.  Obviously some people probably deserve a light toasting and some a real roasting.   

What we could do is simply build a large pole with clutch arrangement to connect the earth to the Moon and then by carefully connecting the objects, we could change the rotational characteristics of both.

Or just arrange a fly past of a very large object.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

[
Why don't we just adapt to having a harder resistant exoskeleton??

Yeah, that's what cochineal beetles said, and look what happens to them, Let alone where good old-fashioned shellac comes from.

Whatever award that actor just won, he doesn't seem too happy about it. Or should I get new spectacles?

Yes, go to Specsavers. 

It probably makes sense to develop exoskeletons via genetic engineering.  Life on earth is going to  get more environmentally difficult.   At least cockroaches (and their mutant overlords known as politicians) have a shot at surviving in a "Mars" style environment.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I think that's risky - like bringing asteroids onto the earth to mine which would slow down the rotation of the earth (i.e. increase mass).]

Not really, because that mass was already captured so you are really just taking money out of one pocket to put it in another, the essential mass of the solar system remains the same. What should happen, according to Newton (good Cambridge chap), is that the Earth gets a bit further out from the sun with added mass and remains in a steady orbit. So Earth gets a bit farther away and continues on its eccentric path, as indeed do we.

fluffy2560 wrote:

All the train timetables will need to be rewritten

Apparently this has been happening in the UK over the last few months. In 1999 my small company had a big contract with Railtrack doing train pathing. My simple suggestion that we should try to make the timetables fit the times of the trains, rather than the other way around, was treated with something more than a raised eyebrow.

fluffy2560 wrote:

But if you change angle either way, someone is going to get increased exposure to UV.  Obviously some people probably deserve a light toasting and some a real roasting.

Not at all. The obvious thing to do is go underground. We as a species seem to have landed ourselves, literally, by forgetting the interior of the planet and choosing to live on the surface. Subterranean is the way to go. In short, we should all go straight to Hell.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Or just arrange a fly past of a very large object.

Maybe, but what kind of massively huge  body could we possibly get under control? I suppose we could ask Roseanne Barr's agent.