Absolutely Anything Else

Hungary is not like India where there is a huge problem with strays and rabies. The time's when I visit Hungary and can honestly say I have never seen any. I wasn't even aware that dogs are being sent to the UK either.

Oh, and for a better response to your question, it would have been better starting a new thread as this one is really just to let off steam and talk about anything.

klsallee wrote:

Lyndielou wrote:

My main worry is stray dogs and Rabies.

This is a non-worry topic. Incidents of rabies in dogs is essentially zero in Hungary, and has been for many years. This is due to a strong eradication campaign carried on by the government. However, it is still found in other animals, such as bats at the rate of maybe 0 or 1 a year (so even that is not something to worry about). .

Lyndielou wrote:

I have a little Chihuahua, and I am possibly overreacting, but I am beginning to worry about his safety this worrying has started after hearing about so many stray dogs being rescued from pounds and sent to England and other countries to be adopted after being treated so badly. Is it that bad?

There used to be rabies in the forests around Budapest but the government had a policy of vaccination for potential vectors (infected animals) for spreading the disease.  I used to see helicopters flying over my place in district II which bordered the forest. They were dropping bait for the foxes, badgers or anything else likely to carry the disease.  If the disease is found, they put up very obvious signs.

I think a lot of rabies gets unreported.  People live in areas bordering the forest and a dog in the garden gets in a fight with a rabid animal, gets sick and then dies.  The owners just say, oh, poor thing and bury it in the garden, no reports made.  Many people here in Hungary view dogs and cats as objects or tools, not pets.  Oh, dog or cat is sick, let it die (vets cost money) and we'll get another one.  On the other hand, there are some people think of pets as more important than children.  Some people's fawning behaviour over their pets is ridiculous and there's a standing joke referring to dogs and cats as "the furry children".

Anyway, I've had two emergency vaccinations against rabies - once in Hungary where I was standing at the bus stop and a dog walked by and bit me randomly on my hand - drew blood too.  Strangely enough my colleague was also bitten by a dog the week before.  He was rushed off to be vaccinated.  And then it was my turn.  It was totally free to be vaccinated as it's considered a public health emergency.   The other time was in Burma a couple of years ago.  Cost me $40 x 2 (2 injections, weeks apart).

I should point out that rabies does not exist in the UK (it's an island) and incidences of rabies are always due to people returning from countries where it's commonplace like India or Africa. Dogs (particularly) cannot enter the UK without an acceptable EU issued rabies vaccination certificate.  If they haven't got one, the dog has to go into quarantine for 6 months.   No exceptions.

You might be referring to export of dogs to the UK from intensive and illegal puppy farms which are becoming very commonplace hereabouts.  Anyone wanting to buy a dog here should be very cautious.   Our kids want a dog and we're in the process of looking into it.  There's a massive problem here of inbreeding and lying about puppies ages (puppy needs to be 8 weeks at least before being separated from the mother). 

Probably your Chihuahua will be inside most of the time. I reckon it's pretty safe. No worse than anywhere else.

I also was not aware that they were sending dogs off to the UK from Hungary.
Vizsla dogs are super smart but  long haired shaggy type of dog seems like too much grooming.
Do they still do the quarantine in the UK? 6 months long i think it was.
Did that horror show to my Doberman for 4 months in Honolulu, funny enough the compound was located near the state prison.
It was animal prison, had to show ID to get in with visiting hours etc. posted, pure hell on earth.
Had about 3,000 animals there cats and dogs.
My sister put her cat in the UK quarantine in the late 60's, was tough.
Seems like a big expense  to bring dogs from Hu and then put them in jail for 6 months time.
I was also thinking your little guy is tiny and will probably be a inside pet so no worries.
They even now have set up DIY shops for shampooing your pet around the city, not a bad idea.

fluffy2560 wrote:

You might be referring to export of dogs to the UK from intensive and illegal puppy farms which are becoming very commonplace hereabouts.  Anyone wanting to buy a dog here should be very cautious.   Our kids want a dog and we're in the process of looking into it.  There's a massive problem here of inbreeding and lying about puppies ages (puppy needs to be 8 weeks at least before being separated from the mother).

Following the news, it seems to be a problem in the UK; and the government is cracking on puppy farms.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I think a lot of rabies gets unreported.

When rabies occurs in an area, its presences is usually detected in the main source vectors -- the wildlife. Sampling schemes are usually in place to test for rabies in wildlife in high risk areas. It rarely goes undetected for long.

fluffy2560 wrote:

People live in areas bordering the forest and a dog in the garden gets in a fight with a rabid animal, gets sick and then dies.  The owners just say, oh, poor thing and bury it in the garden, no reports made.

There are three main forms rabies can take in dogs: a furious stage, a paralytic stage, or a combination of both. It is very unlikely that all rabies transmissions to display only the paralytic form of the disease, which it the only one that may go undetected. And I say "may" at the virus is present in the dogs saliva in all cases, and can still be transmitted to their owner via cuts or other possible entry sites on the person, who would then come down with the disease. And of course that says nothing about the rabid animal the dog had a fight with -- which was probably in a furious stage, and would not stop attacking other animals, and humans. Which would probably be reported.

Thus you are thus assuming quite a series of unlikely scenarios without any real evidence to say there is a rabies problems, which may scare people unnecessary. 

fluffy2560 wrote:

Anyway, I've had two emergency vaccinations against rabies - once in Hungary where I was standing at the bus stop and a dog walked by and bit my me randomly on my hand - drew blood too.  Strangely enough my colleague was also bitten by a dog the week before.  He was rushed off to be vaccinated.  And then it was my turn.  It was totally free to be vaccinated as it's considered a public health emergency.

A dog can be aggressive without having rabies. Especially feral dogs. In fact, feral dog packs can be dangerous in general and should be avoided. The only way to know if any animal has rabies would be to capture it and test it for rabies.

You were given the vaccine as purely precautionary. Even if the chance the animal had rabies was just 0.00001%, there is no reason to risk your life even at those tiny odds, just in case the animal *did* have rabies, and it was transmitted to you, rabies is almost always fatal without pre-symptom treatment.

I have a MS in Wildlife Management, and took the pre-innoculation rabies vaccine since I was a high risk group since I did a lot of work on medium sized carnivores (e.g. foxes -- which are well known to carry rabies). So understanding this disease was a bit of a professional necessity for me.

Thank you Marilyn, feel much better now.
Lyndielou.  England

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I think a lot of rabies gets unreported.

When rabies occurs in an area, its presences is usually detected in the main source vectors -- the wildlife. Sampling schemes are usually in place to test for rabies in wildlife in high risk areas. It rarely goes undetected for long.

I was quoting Mrs Fluffy who had some knowledge on the subject from her relatives (farming people and vets from further East, real countryside, close to Romania).  Apparently dogs dropping dead is not all that uncommon out there.  And in some places, where I live, dogs are pretty much left on their own for days on end or even  left to roam (sometimes becoming pack like in the forests - but that's unusual these days).  Anyway, having read up on it for my own concerns,  the time for symptoms to show can be rather long.  But in the case of the guard dog, another chained up dead canine at the holiday home is not that unusual. 

Obviously vaccinations are precautionary but still, why take the risk and these days, having the vaccine is no big deal (the first dog bite was 6 injections and the second dog was only two injections).

klsallee wrote:

Thus you are thus assuming quite a series of unlikely scenarios without any real evidence to say there is a rabies problems, which may scare people unnecessary.

Nah, let's not put words in my mouth.  I never said it was a problem per se as there's management. But that there's enough concerns here to assume the worst which means it's considered endemic.  In my own country, it's definitely not a problem. Doesn't exist in the wild at all.   A bite from an animal there would not normally mean an automatic rabies vaccination unless it's established the injury occurred overseas.  And that could be the USA, India or anywhere but not the UK or Ireland.   I remember in the area I lived in Austria, plenty of the forest trails I frequented had rabies warnings up.

I know about the testing for rabies on the suspect animal - basically do pathology on its brain.  In Burma, I wanted them to capture the animal for that purpose but in the fracas, the locals threw stones at it and drove it off so that was a no go.  I even got my local support to try and get the authorities to find the animal but it was useless.  I am sure I saw the thing again a few days later.  At the local clinic, the Doc said it was a common problem in the area and he was vaccinating people all the time. 

klsallee wrote:

....rabies is almost always fatal without pre-symptom treatment.

Having read up on this before, there have been survivors with supportive treatment but they are the exception, including one young woman recently. She was extremely lucky and will need years of rehabilitation.  Quite a stunning victory for the treatment protocol. On the vaccine packet - which I read and studied intensively -  there are two protocols, each of which require different numbers of injections.  I don't remember the reliability but it was something like 98% effective.

klsallee wrote:

I have a MS in Wildlife Management, and took the pre-innoculation rabies vaccine since I was a high risk group since I did a lot of work on medium sized carnivores (e.g. foxes -- which are well known to carry rabies). So understanding this disease was a bit of a professional necessity for me.

I don't have an MS in Wildlife Management but I've been bitten and been through the public health system here for that and indeed elsewhere in an emergency.   Did you ever get bitten when messing around with foxes?

Touchy subject for me.
I was very much into protecting animals for the longest time.
Used to send whatever I could to the World Wildlife Fund, all sort of agencies for their care.
Got my beloved Doberman from a Dobbie rescue etc.
Used to call up if I saw a chained up dog without shelter at a house or back yard.
Just was heartbreaking to move to the BIg Island of Hawaii and see how horrible many dogs were treated there.
I spent back in 1995 $850. just to board my dog in the state required compound until he was cleared by them, took 4 months of long days, drove to visit him every single open visiting days I could, went to all days but 2.
Even got to know some poor dogs who's owners were off Island and couldn't check up on them.
We stayed in Honolulu just so we could check on our boy even though we had to but our plans for going to another Island on hold for 4 months. Believe me, we spent thousands on rent , petrol and wasted time waiting for him to be free from dog jail.
After we moved to the Big Island I realized there were so many abused dogs, strays running around, dogs that probably never saw a rabies shot in their life etc.
Just such a dumb double standard over there.
Sometimes Hungary seems the same way, some people bend over backwards to care for their pets and other just couldn't be bothered, can just replace them if they die and never shed a tear about it.
The Island had literally the bodies of dead dogs tossed on the side of the road, would see at least 2 or 3 of them every morning on my ride into Hilo from Mountain View when we stayed up there for a month.
These dogs were "losers" from pit fights, chickens always were tossed away like trash on the roadside from cock fights.
It was a living hell for dogs over there.
I don't think Hungary is even half as bad as Hawaii is with animals.
When my dog was spending time in quarantine I met a senior aged man who worked there.
He didn't need the job his two sons were doctors and supported him.'It was more of a hobby job for him.
He said a few years back when he started there that the compound was losing dogs every night.
The owners were freaking out, they paid and then their dog was missing from it's run. Every dog had it's own run that was caged off with a small back room area that was covered from the rain with a small off ground bed built in. They were locked inside and not allowed out for any reason but for bathing if you had permission to remove them or for a vet visit at the cost of a state doc. Couldn't even bring in your own vet, had to use the state vet that over charged.
Anyways the old man said some of the workers were actually selling off these large dogs, he told me because my dog would of been one they would of lost if we had been there years earlier.
Large black dogs seem to taste the best he said!!
They were selling these dogs off for food!!!
No kidding, this guy was serious.
Later on the BIg Island our landlord told me about the same thing.
He was a local Hawaiian man and really nice.
He told us, I can see you really like your dog so no let him run far off, you no see him no more".
He said he had seen a stray Rotty running around his house and called to it. The dog wouldn't come and he never saw it again, he thought one of his neighbors had a nice BBQ.
For real, scared me half to death,For the year we lived in Hilo someone was always home and checking on our dog. Everytime a truck would come close to our house I'd go outside and make sure they didn't try to take my dog away.
He was not allowed in the house .Landlords rules.
Just saying doubt in Hungary people are eating dogs, that's one small relief.
Most dog and cats in Hawaii's quarantine station were owned by people in the US military who served in Hawaii and brought their pets with them on the tour of duty.
So the US tax payers picked up the bill for the $850. What a scam.
Again, $850 is misleading, cost allot more then that in the end.
I had no idea what we were really getting into when we moved there.
I and thousands of others however did do our bit to put an end to forced quarantine in Hawaii. We singed so many petitions and spoke to so many people to be awareness to this issue.
The deal was when you brought your pet into Hawaii you had to show all rabies shots it ever had, have a health clearance from a vet, within two weeks of arrival to the Island and they put the dogs into their own special section for 2 weeks before introducing them into the "general pop" like in prison.
Just was so wrong, only people who would care enough to pay the airflight etc. to bring their pets would be sure they were healthy and no public danger, the local dogs were dirty, dangerous and mistreated, not all of course but I lost allot of nights of sleep in worry over not only my own dog but others.At the 2 month mark I almost had a nervous breakdown over my boy being in that horrid place.
Most locals in Hawaii can't really afford to take their dogs to a vet, all those chickens on the side of the road were full of steroids and not in good shape for anything but cock fighting.
Not joking, while driving around one could see for themselves into back yard where fighting rings were set up in back yards. Just so disgusting, for sure the local police knew about this activity and did nothing to stop it.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Touchy subject for me......
Sometimes Hungary seems the same way, some people bend over backwards to care for their pets and other just couldn't be bothered, can just replace them if they die and never shed a tear about it.
....

That's very true. 

Cats are less abused as they wander free but nevertheless left untreated. Just a tool for keeping the mice and rats down on the farm.   We had our cat put down about 9 years ago - cancer - couldn't eat.  Dogs the same - just exists to scare people and an alarm - gets sick, get another one and chain it up in the garden.  Other doggies treated the same as a child or even better.  I suppose it's a family member at a stretch.

My own dog had cancer and could hardly walk - it was about 12 years old.  She managed the final walk 500m to the vets.  Shame but she was really suffering.

My BIL had a cat which was obviously sick with a distended stomach.  They just thought, oh, cancer, never mind but by the time they finally relented and took it to the vet for an X-ray, it was found it had been shot with an air rifle and there were pellets lodged in it's belly.  Vet could have had it out in 5 minutes and the cat would have been fine but it had suffered for some years.

No-one really seemed to care enough to do anything about it but why anyone would shoot it with an air gun who knows. Seems totally senseless to go to those extremes.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Touchy subject for me......
Sometimes Hungary seems the same way, some people bend over backwards to care for their pets and other just couldn't be bothered, can just replace them if they die and never shed a tear about it.
....

That's very true. 

Cats are less abused as they wander free but nevertheless left untreated. Just a tool for keeping the mice and rats down on the farm.

Even in town, they are not well treated. We had a cat with kittens in our loft/attic this year and there was not much we could do about it, there are tiles missing etc, but apart from some noise and stealing our cat's food were not really much trouble. The thing is there is no kind of rescue centre to take them to. One was very weak and is probably dead now, the mother is still alive and they are quite cunning, i cannot keep like six cats get them all neutered/spayed, injected etc, I cannot afford to do that, and then what would I do with them? I don't want to kill them, but I cannot in all honesty home them all myself. So I just have to pretend they don't exist. Not a very nice solution in any direction.

The sellers of our house left a cat and said oh he is hard to get in, if he is on the windowsill can you catch him for us and we will come and get him.... have you tried catching a cat sitting on the windowsill outside? He just ran away of course. Once we did catch him and phone them up, we have your cat. Oh, well, you can keep it.  WHAT? Total neglect if you ask me.

fluffy2560 wrote:

We had our cat put down about 9 years ago - cancer - couldn't eat.

I wish it were allowed that someone could do that to me when I get too old and poorly. Seriously. I call that being humane, other people would call it playing God, I know.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Dogs the same - just exists to scare people and an alarm - gets sick, get another one and chain it up in the garden...

For added benefit chain it up during the day so that it barks continuously when someonoe working from home is trying to concentrate, then take it in during the evening when you are yourself at home. When you go to bed, put it back on a chain in the yard so that the home worker who is on the night shift can now listen to it barking all night. Yet I am told by my wife if I make any noise, because I am human, then after 9pm that is illegal.

fluffy2560 wrote:

My own dog had cancer and could hardly walk - it was about 12 years old.  She managed the final walk 500m to the vets.  Shame but she was really suffering.

It is a difficult decision,. no doubt about it. But at least you loved and cared for that animal all the time you could.

fluffy2560 wrote:

My BIL had a cat which was obviously sick with a distended stomach.  They just thought, oh, cancer, never mind but by the time they finally relented and took it to the vet for an X-ray, it was found it had been shot with an air rifle...

Several of my Hungarian SIL's cats have been poisioned. The bizarre thing to me is she then gets more, yet doesn't want any of these strays.... there is some kind of woolly thinking going on there.  And never gets them jabbed, chipped etc etc.

If you have a pet you should be responsible for it. It is not a legal issue. It is a moral issue.

SimonTrew wrote:

.....Once we did catch him and phone them up, we have your cat. Oh, well, you can keep it.  WHAT? Total neglect if you ask me.

fluffy2560 wrote:

We had our cat put down about 9 years ago - cancer - couldn't eat.

I wish it were allowed that someone could do that to me when I get too old and poorly. Seriously. I call that being humane, other people would call it playing God, I know.
.....
It is a difficult decision,. no doubt about it. But at least you loved and cared for that animal all the time you could.

....yet doesn't want any of these strays.... there is some kind of woolly thinking going on there.  And never gets them jabbed, chipped etc etc.

If you have a pet you should be responsible for it. It is not a legal issue. It is a moral issue.

Agreed.   

We're in Balaton (again) and there's a cat which hangs around here which our kids have half-adopted.  It turns up every year, gets fed and looked after, then we clear off until next year. What happens in between for the other half of the year, no idea.  But we suspect it's everyone's cat and no-one's cat.  There are dogs like that around here as well.  Our own dog was terribly sick and there was no way to fix her.  She'd served well even if there were some incidences of bad times - bit me, my brother and my niece at different times.  Stole my donut as well off the coffee table and looked very hang-dog guilty.  She supervised my Dad out for his walkies a lot.

You could - if feeling you've had enough - take a trip to Dignitas in Switzerland.  I was reading only recently about a 29 year old woman in The Netherlands who had a long history of self harm and depression and decided to formally end her life using euthanasia.  I thought that was a shame because physically there was nothing wrong with her and possibly a cure could have been found for her mind eventually.  Belgium is also recently allowing it for terminally ill children.  I've heard there are "flexible" doctors in the UK who give that little bit more morphine when nudged. Ongoing debate.

I also saw a quite interesting documentary about travel to Dignitas including an older guy with motor neurone disease dispatching himself.  It was very peaceful, like someone's modern house in the middle of an industrial estate, all supervised by local volunteers.  First drug makes them sleepy, then the second drug finishes the job.  I was amazed how much snoring was going on.  Very long, very deep snoring.  Remarkably calm and  matter of fact.  Police get called, then the mortuary workers and that's that.   

I also saw one which looked more like a kind of shed where the patient gets to press a button to instigate the process using a powered syringe - no-one will press the button for them.

fluffy2560 wrote:

You could - if feeling you've had enough - take a trip to Dignitas in Switzerland.  I was reading only recently about a 29 year old woman in The Netherlands who had a long history of self harm and depression and decided to formally end her life using euthanasia....

I have to be careful what I say here. The bind one is in is essentially giving power of attorney, that one has to say "look, if I am so gaga that I have no quality of life, just please end it for me". As far as I am aware, suicide is not illegal in the united kingdom, although you can be done for attempted suicide (huh?) but maybe they got rid of that too as patently putting someone in prison for attempting to take his own life is not going to solve anything unless you have some kind of belief in the reforming qualities of the prison system that has a much higher rate of suicide than in the general population. (There was a documentary on Channel 4 the other night but I missed it.) I am not encouraging anyone to suicide. I just don't see why since we are expected to be responsible citizens from the age of majority to the time of our deaths, part of our responsibility cannot be the time and manner of our deaths.

I saw on the telly the other day some bizarre statement, I think it was an advert for the telly the Alzheimer's Society charity, that "Alzheimer's is the leading cause of death in the UK, without any backup that you would need for the merest hair dye advert. Now they did not quote where they got that view from (The British Heart Foundation say that heart disease is the leading cause... etc etc) but let's assume that it is. Where would they get a statistic from, assuming there is an ounce of truth in it, that says it is? They would get it from the Office of National Statistics essentially, the UK equivalent of the KSH. And where would they get it from? By compiling the causes of death from death certificates, lodged at the Public Records Office. And who writes the death certificates? The doctor or in her absence the coronette. So if Alzheimer's is now the leading cause of death, it is only because doctors are more willing to write the death certificate thus.

The statistic therefore does not measure how more prevalent Alzheimer's disease is - and it will be, because people are less likely to die in car accidents, down coal mines, being shot at by Germans, etc etc - but because [i]that is how it is reported[i]. I think 100% of mid-19th Century Jewish Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom said "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Oh dear, what a jolly way to spend a friday afternoon.

The reason Dignitas exists is that it essentially doctors in Switzerland  are immune for prosecution for murdering their patients, there is more to it than that of course but to put it in a nutshell, people should not be forced to that expense so that poor people like me do not have that option anyway.

I wouldn't need to, I have three-phase electricity, a very deep bath, cutthroat razors, at least two hundred paracetemol tablets (as they are cheaper to get from England for our friends here in Hungary), I can walk in front of a car or bus, or fall in a major European river, have a garage pit that gives me at least a fifteen foot drop from the rafters, plenty of wood and petrol,. all manner of ways to do myself in.

It is the physically disabled, quadriplegics etc who really suffer. they may wish to die, cannot do it themselves, and it is illegal for anyone to assist them. So they are not just stuck in a physical bind, they are stuck in a legal bind. That can be solved with a stroke of a pen, it is time once again to reform the laws on euthanasia. Yes of course we do not want to turn it into a whodunnit, or rather, whydunnit. But the balance should be a bit more towards the choice of the individual. One can write a "living will" but it has no legal force. All that is required is it has legal force in the same way a last will and testament is. There is no legal barrier to it, we allow the dead to rule the living through inherited property rights and so on, it is a matter of public morality, that is all.

Anyone who is staying alive with no quality of live, in pain or just trapped, just so that their loved one won't go to prison, that person is a hero. We cannot expect everyone to be heros. I'm not.

The stats for england, for 2015, summarised in a UK govenment document

Since 2001, death rates from heart disease and stroke have halved for both males and females.

Over the same time period deaths from dementia and Alzheimer’s have increased by 60% in males and have doubled in females. This partly reflects the fact that the population is ageing and that two-thirds of deaths now occur among those aged 75 and over, but also an increased awareness of dementia.

These are for England not the whole of the UK. For males, heart disease is the winner until about age eighty, then it is even stevens. For females, Alzheimer's wins by a short head.

That is probably the document both charities rely on, though neither says so on their ads, and neither qualifies the male/female distinction. And that is the summary on the front page of chapter 2, linked So why don't the charities quote their sources like any other advertiser has to?

And those stats must be reliable, after all if you can't trust the government, well who.... now... hang on....

SimonTrew wrote:

As far as I am aware, suicide is not illegal in the united kingdom, although you can be done for attempted suicide (huh?)

It was both illegal up until 60 years ago. But not any more under Suicide Act 1961.

SimonTrew wrote:

The reason Dignitas exists is that it essentially doctors in Switzerland  are immune for prosecution for murdering their patients, there is more to it than that of course....

....I have three-phase electricity, a very deep bath, cutthroat razors, at least two hundred paracetemol tablets (as they are cheaper to get from England for our friends here in Hungary), I can walk in front of a car or bus, or fall in a major European river, have a garage pit that gives me at least a fifteen foot drop from the rafters, plenty of wood and petrol,. all manner of ways to do myself in.

....Anyone who is staying alive with no quality of live, in pain or just trapped, just so that their loved one won't go to prison, that person is a hero. We cannot expect everyone to be heros. I'm not.

I don't think doctors are immune from prosecution but I believe multiple independent doctors have to agree to the person's desire for self-termination.  The Dignitas documentary I saw didn't involve doctors at all as far as I remember.  There was no coercion, the person self-medicates by drinking the meds themselves, they are asked multiple times if this is what they want. They can stop any time.  Most of them seem to want to do it while they have motor skills to carry out the task. If it goes on too long, then it's impossible physically.  Guy I saw on the documentary was a smart guy - millionaire head of food processing company called Smedley's (US readers: a large British company)

When my own brother succumbed to his brain cancer, he was completely out of it and probably didn't even know where he was.  He wasn't apparently in any pain, he was just unable to function further and he couldn't even speak or communicate much.  He just faded away. Utter waste of a nice intelligent human being.

What a happy set of subjects - rabies, dead dogs, animal abuse and now assisted suicide.  The sun is shining, it's 30 C outside and the lake is as flat as a pancake.  Not a good day to die.

My MIL had many cats and one nice German Shepard dog that were poisoned by someone.
They suspected the nasty old widow across the st. in Erd. Her husband BTW turned up dead too by something he had eaten??!!
My MIL never liked that neighbor but never confronted her.
Me however, when I once passed her on the st. I out right called her a cat killer to her face. She didn't understand me or my broken Hungarian but just as well I suppose.
I used the word in HU for cat and drew a cut under my throat to make it clear it was about cat murder.I know I am odd at times but some people.
I sort of believe she knew what I was about because no one goes up to someone in a foreign language and gets in the face for nothing.
We forced my MIL to get 2 of her cats fixed but they both already had many liters of kittens by then.
When she died she left a cat which my husband liked allot, we had to return to the US so we found an add for a cat rescue in Budapest.
We paid like $40. towards it's care and gave it to some women who had about a dozen strays running all over her flat.
Didn't feel good about it but we had to go.
Another time when we returned to Erd for the long haul of selling off the farm I had a run in with Gypsies over a kitten.
As we drove past a home my husband said did you see that? I said no, seems about 6 young boys were drowning a kitten in a rust old backyard tub.
I made him go around the block so I could see for myself.
Had him stop the car and i got out and screamed so loud the boys let go of the kitten and it ran off wet out into the st.
Then I noticed about 5 or so adults near by turn towards me and start walking fast in my direction. I jumped in the car and again had my husband hit the gas for a get away, seems I always need a fast get away here in Hungary!
Couldn't see the kitten anywhere so feeling badly we just went home. My husband wouldn't call the police as I asked because he said it was a Sunday and no way would they hassle themselves with a family of Gypsies over a kitten that got away.Justice not served.

SimCityAT wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

As far as I am aware, suicide is not illegal in the united kingdom, although you can be done for attempted suicide (huh?)

It was both illegal up until 60 years ago. But not any more under Suicide Act 1961.

OK but I think in practice even after the Act people were being done for attempted suicide when it failed, but perhaps that is just a myth.

The reason I brought it up was before that, insurance companies had an exclusion clause that life assurance was not paid on a policy for one whose death was by suicide, and mirabile dictu hardly anyone had their death recorded as suicide. Again I don't know quite how true this is, but the myth is that the doctor or coronette would tend to record it as "natural causes", also partly because of the social stigma I imagine.

I am just telling the tale that I heard told. I have no idea how true it is. In fact I can immediately think of a counterfactual, that somewhere in Orwell I think he says (it seems a bit too early for Orwell who died in 1950) that in WW2 suicides in the UK actually went down, it might be in Orwell as he was saying they went down during the Blitz of 1940-41. Now Orwell was no statisitician and it could be pure propaganda wearing his other hat, but you would expect them to go down anyway... when people are being killed by doodlebugs, gas leaks, sent away to be killed in various other ways etc then obviously the proportion of death by suicide will go down, simply because one is more likely to be killed in numerous other ways. That is what happens when you pluck statistics out of context.

fluffy2560 wrote:

What a happy set of subjects - rabies, dead dogs, animal abuse and now assisted suicide.  The sun is shining, it's 30 C outside and the lake is as flat as a pancake.  Not a good day to die.

Well maybe, but how flat is a pancake anyway? I mean, it is not as flat as a long-playing record, or my shirt sleeves, or a billiard table, or the chest of a woman I once dated, or western Belgium or the Alfőld, the pancake is positively mountainous compared to any. Even if you are talking a pile of crepes, as usual, it will be much higher than eight Max Bygraves on the autochanger. But will probably sound better.

I saw a great one this morning on I think BBC News. I hadn't the sound on, I had only just switched the telly on and hadn't put the ancient hifi on for the sound, but they were making various length comparisons, sort of between about 445m and 3000m I have no idea what for. With their horizontal bar chart, the first bar was "maximum length of football pitch: 120m". I am not joking. Once the sound came on (a relay cuts in after a few seconds) nobody was comparing anything to the length of a football pitch. Some memo has come down saying "do not compare things to the size of football pitches" so instead of comparing them, they just add them to the graphic. like.... very helpful...

Quick, what is 3000m in football pitches?

Looks like rain is coming,I love it but sorry for the Fluffets in Balaton. Maybe the sun will shine there all weekend long!

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Looks like rain is coming,I love it but sorry for the Fluffets in Balaton. Maybe the sun will shine there all weekend long!

I typed that, then about 1h later, it was all thunder and lightning with rain and the flashing warning lights.   

In between showers, the Fluffyettes and Mrs Fluffy were in the water while I was working.

It's like washing your car - as soon as one does it, it rains.

I should have kept stumm!

We had it out here in the XV about half an hour ago, quite a show but the cat got a bit scaredy cat he always does. It was beautiful wasn't it. Nice when it is is a clear sky and not bouncing off the low clouds lit from the sodium lamps, it was beautiful.

And free. Wow. You have this magical, amazing spectacle if you only look up. Now I can't tell Alpha Centauri from a box of chocolates but to just gaze in wonder at this magic, that is better than any circus or telly, and it is free, bring your own popcorn (might get wet). I know how it works I have been told, still, it is this wondrous, marvellous, beautiful thing. It is magic, real magic. I know how the illusion is made, but that is just amateurs, the real stuff up in the sky, that is proper magic. Beautiful, real, magic, for everyone to see, if they would only look up.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Looks like rain is coming,I love it but sorry for the Fluffets in Balaton. Maybe the sun will shine there all weekend long!

I typed that, then about 1h later, it was all thunder and lightning with rain and the flashing warning lights.   

In between showers, the Fluffyettes and Mrs Fluffy were in the water while I was working.

It's like washing your car - as soon as one does it, it rains.

I should have kept stumm!

The rain it raineth every day
Upon the just and unjust fella
But mostly on the just because
The unjust has the just's umbrella.

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's like washing your car - as soon as one does it, it rains.

No it is either like washing oneˇs car... one does it, OR when you wash your car... you do it... Tut tut tut tut. Tut tut tut tut tut. I think your car has an ignition problem on third or second person, i mean cylinder. tut tut tut tut tut tut tut.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's like washing your car - as soon as one does it, it rains.

No it is either like washing oneˇs car... one does it, OR when you wash your car... you do it... Tut tut tut tut. Tut tut tut tut tut. I think your car has an ignition problem on third or second person, i mean cylinder. tut tut tut tut tut tut tut.

No need to get all in a lather over it.   Might deter a gent.

But in any case, type in haste repent at leisure.   I might not have cylinders, I could be equipped with a Wankel engine or I'm all electric.  Might be roundy roundy not uppy downy.   That's engineer speak.

SimonTrew wrote:

.....
The rain it raineth every day
Upon the just and unjust fella
But mostly on the just because
The unjust has the just's umbrella.

Tut tut...this is hardly the place for that kind of stuff.  In fact, ballcocks to poetry. 

I once visited a hospital full of people who looked perfectly healthy.  One of them came over and said:

Fair fa your honest sonsie face,
Great chieftain o the puddin race,
Aboon them a ye take yer place,
Painch, tripe or thairm,
As langs my airm

I thought, what's going so I asked the nurse, why are all these Scots people here?

Ach, she said, it's the Serious Burns Unit.

Yes, like I said, ballcocks and about as useful.

SimonTrew wrote:

....
And free. Wow. You have this magical, amazing spectacle if you only look up. Now I can't tell Alpha Centauri from a box of chocolates but to just gaze in wonder at this magic, that is better than any circus ....

I was at a circus yesterday with Team Fluffy.  Not normally a fan but this was quite good and quite contemporary (apparently it's a particular type of performance). Richter Florian Cirkusz - worth a visit if nearby.   For a late season performance, it was pretty full - maybe 250-300 in the audience.

BTW, you can get an app on your smartphone.  Point it at the sky and it'll work out where you are and tell you the names of all the stars overlaid on the camera image.  I've tried a few of these apps and some of them are rather good.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I might not have cylinders, I could be equipped with a Wankel .

Yes I have always thought of you as rather a Wankel,. always drifting around everywhere without any real drive, and a rather complicated arrangement at your rear end. But then Mrs Fluffy, in somewhat private conversation, tells me you are very good with maintaining a four stroke, regular maintenance with some lubrication, but I have no idea what she means. Surely two strokes is enough for any Hungarian?

fluffy2560 wrote:

BTW, you can get an app on your smartphone.  Point it at the sky....

Or you could look at the sky. I do not have a smartphone. Why should I look at that bit of crap terra firmae when i can look at the sky? I don'"t care what they are called, they are still beautiful.

I think when Fluffy was singing to the Fluffiettes it went like this

Twinkle,twinkle little star, how I wonder what you are,
a hot gaseous object composed of hydrogen which by nuclear fusion decays into helium...
up above the clouds so high... like a
well they are well above the clouds apart from our own sun about billions of miles away
...diamond in the sky
well definitely not diamond. Diamond is a form of carbon formed by compression in a cubic structure and you wont find that in a star
Twinkle... twinkle little...
Well they are not little either. They are generally quite big, execpt of course for neutron stars and pulsars and maybe black holes if they count.
--star,. how I wonder what you are.

I just told you Now goood night, go to sleep, and tomorrow we shall have a poem by W. H. Auden. Won"t that be fun?

say what you like, the stars are beautiful. Nobody has to tell me so, I know it so.

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

.....
The rain it raineth every day
Upon the just and unjust fella
But mostly on the just because
The unjust has the just's umbrella.

Tut tut...this is hardly the place for that kind of stuff.  In fact, ballcocks to poetry. 

I once visited a hospital full of people who looked perfectly healthy.  One of them came over and said:

Fair fa your honest sonsie face,
Great chieftain o the puddin race,
Aboon them a ye take yer place,
Painch, tripe or thairm,
As langs my airm

I thought, what's going so I asked the nurse, why are all these Scots people here?

Ach, she said, it's the Serious Burns Unit.

Yes, like I said, ballcocks and about as useful.

Theyy should have a "dislike" or "groan" button on this thing.

We sassenachs used  to do a Burns night but in the English style, since Culloden of course we rather have them whished. But instead of doing his most famous poem, we used to do some of his lesser-known works in the lallands scotch for which, to any ameur de poesie he is better appreciated. Far more deep and sensual, we felt, and the four of us reciting the quadrille, we did the auld baird proud, as a minor burns unit.


I see your pun and raise you ten.... I am aiming for minors and bairns unit but that might be a bluff.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I might not have cylinders, I could be equipped with a Wankel .

Yes I have always thought of you as rather a Wankel,. always drifting around everywhere without any real drive, and a rather complicated arrangement at your rear end. But then Mrs Fluffy, in somewhat private conversation, tells me you are very good with maintaining a four stroke, regular maintenance with some lubrication, but I have no idea what she means. Surely two strokes is enough for any Hungarian?

Smooth operations are always dependent on a good lubrication system.  But that's just a given. I'm old school and like a four stroke mainly because with a two stroke you don't get that confident thud-thud at low revs.  With two strokes, it's all a bit whiney and not enough torque.

So I'm in for the four strokes as it doesn't need special fuel although of course, two strokes are lighter as they have less mechanical parts.  Small aircraft engines are often two stroke but I've seen recently even diesel engine conversions for larger planes.

Wankel engines never really had their day - the seals on the end of the rotors were prone to failure.   

Without looking an from memory,  I can only think of two cars with Wankel engines, one being I think the NSU 80 and the other the Mazda RX7?   

Neither of them were real winners as they tended to have high fuel consumption but they also had high power weight ratio.  I think the fuel and rotor issue killed them off.   

There are some radical engine design discussions on the internet on YouTube.  It's a different world.

SimonTrew wrote:

I think when Fluffy was singing to the Fluffiettes it went like this

Twinkle,twinkle little star, how I wonder what you are,
a hot gaseous object composed of hydrogen which by nuclear fusion decays into helium...
up above the clouds so high... like a
.....
....
say what you like, the stars are beautiful. Nobody has to tell me so, I know it so.

Actually we're at the stage where they are telling me stories. 

For example, I had no idea Lexa in The 100 and Alicia in Fear The Walking Dead were the same actress and I'd never have guessed she was actually Australian.

SimonTrew wrote:

...
Theyy should have a "dislike" or "groan" button on this thing.

We sassenachs used  to do a Burns night but in the English style, since Culloden of course we rather have them whished. But instead of doing his most famous poem, we used to do some of his lesser-known works in the lallands scotch for which, to any ameur de poesie he is better appreciated. Far more deep and sensual, we felt, and the four of us reciting the quadrille, we did the auld baird proud, as a minor burns unit.

Well, if we're speaking of dislike and like, remember Titbits, the UK gossip and trivia magazine?

This thread is like that and poetry doesn't really work unless it's seriously humorous or trivial or perhaps it's been on Poetry Please.  I'd say it's actually a conversation stopper as no-one knows WTF most poetry is about.  And moreover, no-one cares.

I reckon the only poet(s) who deserve(s) to be here is (are) John Cooper Clarke and maybe Ian Drury.

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

...
Theyy should have a "dislike" or "groan" button on this thing.

We sassenachs used  to do a Burns night but in the English style, since Culloden of course we rather have them whished. But instead of doing his most famous poem, we used to do some of his lesser-known works in the lallands scotch for which, to any ameur de poesie he is better appreciated. Far more deep and sensual, we felt, and the four of us reciting the quadrille, we did the auld baird proud, as a minor burns unit.

Well, if we're speaking of dislike and like, remember Titbits, the UK gossip and trivia magazine?

This thread is like that and poetry doesn't really work unless it's seriously humorous or trivial or perhaps it's been on Poetry Please.  I'd say it's actually a conversation stopper as no-one knows WTF most poetry is about.  And moreover, no-one cares.

I reckon the only poet(s) who deserve(s) to be here is (are) John Cooper Clarke and maybe Ian Drury.

Mz granddad used ot take Tit-BIts. This was also in the era when people would kinda circulate magazines, women mostly, so one person would buy the Woman's Own,  the neighbour the Woman's Realm, and so on, and so there would always be a four week old copy by the time they got it, as if it mattered they might as well just reprint the same magazine every week. My favourite is the letters pages, "here is a picture of my grandson falling over. How we laughed'" Thanks Mrs B. from Southend or whatever. My absolute addiction is to The People's Friend, which always has a watercolour of some Scottish loch or glen on the cover by J. Campbell Kerr,. who is either fictitious or must be about 107 by now. I just love it, my ex bought me a subscription once but it is not the same, the whole point is you find a tatty old copy in the waiting room at the doctor's etc and can swoon to the love story.

My own theory also is that knitting patterns are actually a clever encipherment with subliminal or coded messages. They are looking in the wrong places with all this cryptography stuff. Patently they are hiding them in the knitting patterns.

I've been racking my brain for days to remember the name of the Yorkshire Poet Ian Not-Mclellan. He is quite often on Poetry Please as a presenter I think but can't remember his name. I hear his voice sometimes on ads, very distinctive voice and style, but for the life of me cannot remember his name because my brain always says Ian Mclellan even though I know it isn't.

SimonTrew wrote:

....My granddad used ot take Tit-BIts. This was also in the era when people would kinda circulate magazines, women mostly, so one person would buy the Woman's Own,  the neighbour the Woman's Realm, and so on, and so there would always be a four week old copy by the time they got it, as if it mattered they might as well just reprint the same magazine every week. My favourite is the letters pages, "here is a picture of my grandson falling over. How we laughed'" Thanks Mrs B. from Southend or whatever. My absolute addiction is to The People's Friend, which always has a watercolour of some Scottish loch or glen on the cover by J. Campbell Kerr,. who is either fictitious or must be about 107 by now. I just love it, my ex bought me a subscription once but it is not the same, the whole point is you find a tatty old copy in the waiting room at the doctor's etc and can swoon to the love story.

My own theory also is that knitting patterns are actually a clever encipherment with subliminal or coded messages. They are looking in the wrong places with all this cryptography stuff. Patently they are hiding them in the knitting patterns.

I've been racking my brain for days to remember the name of the Yorkshire Poet Ian Not-Mclellan. He is quite often on Poetry Please as a presenter I think but can't remember his name. I hear his voice sometimes on ads, very distinctive voice and style, but for the life of me cannot remember his name because my brain always says Ian Mclellan even though I know it isn't.

No, you mean Ian McMillan.  I cannot stand him at all.  All whinging about God's country being Yorkshire and who'd have thought it, go to the foot of our stairs and by gum, flat caps and whippets.  I have direct and very close lineage to near Leeds and his particular version of the accent makes me cringe.  I turn him off!  Just a smart ass with ridiculous Barnsley gob.   Now, if Alan Bennett, also from Leeds,  was going to take on Ian McMillan in a few rounds, then I'd be all for Team Alan.   

I remember the People's Friend.  My ex-'s mother used to read it as they were somewhat displaced Scots or thereabouts, Co. Durham.  They used to take the Sunday Record as well.

I know what you mean about the knitting patterns.  My Mum used them and Mrs Fluffy does sometimes.  I agree this is clearly how they are communicating with their controllers.  I have a feeling that if you had the right sequence, that woolly jumper with a reindeer on the front being made now for Xmas would in fact be a knitted Enigma machine. 

It's like DNA, just 1% or 2% of DNA is different between a woolly jumper and a Transformer.  Your coffee machine could quite easily have been a pair of socks or earmuffs if someone screwed up at the factory.  I should let Mark Wahlberg know this otherwise he'll be battling soft furnishings and comfy blankets from his mobility scooter in Transformers 99:  Death Knit.

Rehoming dogs and cats has become a good charitable buisiness. My neighbours in the forest do it and some profit is made somewhere.  There are very few strays in my area now so it must be a good thing. I also know people who have set themselves up as an animal sanctuary in Portugal alongside other work development. It's true that people are animal lovers but also true that there is some  profit to be made.
The animals to be rehomed are advertised on social media and in other places and they can be sent from Hungary to countries like the Netherlands.
It's just under 400€ to purchase a dog or puppy that has been vaccinated , chipped and brought up to a good state of health.
Vet fees are lowered when you are processing a large number of animals and volunteer helpers are used in the caring and delivery process.

anns wrote:

Rehoming dogs and cats has become a good charitable buisiness. My neighbours in the forest do it and some profit is made somewhere.  There are very few strays in my area now so it must be a good thing. I also know people who have set themselves up as an animal sanctuary in Portugal alongside other work development. It's true that people are animal lovers but also true that there is some  profit to be made.
The animals to be rehomed are advertised on social media and in other places and they can be sent from Hungary to countries like the Netherlands.
It's just under 400€ to purchase a dog or puppy that has been vaccinated , chipped and brought up to a good state of health.
Vet fees are lowered when you are processing a large number of animals and volunteer helpers are used in the caring and delivery process.

Do you know if you can get vet fees insurance for dogs in Hungary?

I can also confirm something like a Golden Retriever puppy with chip, vaccinations and vet papers costs about 100K HUF.

fluffy2560 wrote:

anns wrote:

Rehoming dogs and cats has become a good charitable buisiness. My neighbours in the forest do it and some profit is made somewhere.  There are very few strays in my area now so it must be a good thing. I also know people who have set themselves up as an animal sanctuary in Portugal alongside other work development. It's true that people are animal lovers but also true that there is some  profit to be made.
The animals to be rehomed are advertised on social media and in other places and they can be sent from Hungary to countries like the Netherlands.
It's just under 400€ to purchase a dog or puppy that has been vaccinated , chipped and brought up to a good state of health.
Vet fees are lowered when you are processing a large number of animals and volunteer helpers are used in the caring and delivery process.

Do you know if you can get vet fees insurance for dogs in Hungary?

I can also confirm something like a Golden Retriever puppy with chip, vaccinations and vet papers costs about 100K HUF.

Most of the large insurance companies offer some form of pet insurance.