How do you invest in Vietnam real estate?

Hello,

i know, a few of you are going to laugh. I don't care...
Important for me is to share this information and to see what we can positively do about the situation.

Global pin book situation in Thu Thiem, District 2 Saigon:
No new owner in Thu Thiem has obtained the pin book up to date.
In New City, I've been here for almost a year ... The sales manager in New City tells me that it is because of the government and that there is still at least 2 years before having a chance to get it...

What do you think ?

what is the Global Pin Book.  excuse my ignorance as i have just started investing in korea under my wife's nane so there are no tax consequences for me here in the US....Any assistance ir education in the matter of real estate investing in Vietnam would be most helpful as i know its a real estate widl fire there!  i dont understand hos tgey xan continue selling 100-225 sq meter apt for $300to 500k where i can but a oretty nice house in the US for that or in Thailand or the Phillipines...any rhyme or reason for this??

ltcjackwatson wrote:

...any rhyme or reason for this??

No.   

ltcjackwatson wrote:

what is the Global Pin Book.  excuse my ignorance as i have just started investing in korea under my wife's nane so there are no tax consequences for me here in the US....Any assistance ir education in the matter of real estate investing in Vietnam would be most helpful as i know its a real estate widl fire there!  i dont understand hos tgey xan continue selling 100-225 sq meter apt for $300to 500k where i can but a oretty nice house in the US for that or in Thailand or the Phillipines...any rhyme or reason for this??

It's called a pink book, its shows all the relevant information for the property and zoning of the property. If you have an existing pink book you can ask for a higher price due to its legal status. Many places here have no book as the government is dead lazy when it comes to paperwork.

DELAFON wrote:

Hello,

i know, a few of you are going to laugh. I don't care...
Important for me is to share this information and to see what we can positively do about the situation.

Global pin book situation in Thu Thiem, District 2 Saigon:
No new owner in Thu Thiem has obtained the pin book up to date.
In New City, I've been here for almost a year ... The sales manager in New City tells me that it is because of the government and that there is still at least 2 years before having a chance to get it...

What do you think ?

I think there was a Vietnam Real Estate expert posting on here recently.

You might ask him.

Oh, wait...

😉

DELAFON wrote:

What do you think ?

The government did not think through a streamline process to provide pink books to foreigners when they passed the regulation allowing foreign ownership. What else is new in Vietnam? Lol To my understanding, its at a deadlock pertaining to national security interest. One agency needs approval from another agency for instruction on which areas of HCMC is considered national security interest, prior to approving pink books. Areas such as former government land or near a river is considered security interest. Unfortunately, there have been no guidance on areas off limits, hence the stalemate. Developers didn't care for the details and provide false promise to buyers that they will get pink books within 3 years, they just wanted your money.

Projects such as Vin Home Central Park and Vin homes Golden River are of concerns. since they fall into both categories. Both projects still have not received pink books. However, the chairman has great ties in the North and will sort it out eventually. On the bright side, i've heard a few owners at City Garden have received pink books. New City is a little concerning because they have been on the governments radar for illegal practices. The project was initially planned as affordable housing for the relocation of some residents in D2 to make way for Thu Thiem. Then, the developer being greedy, changed the plan without government approval to sell as luxury housing. The other projects near New City should give you an idea what it was suppose to look like. I think you will get your pink book.............one day .

The whole system is a fiasco. We bought land in a small country town, it took the local UBND over 6 months just to change the name on the title. Lazy govt officials are half the problem.

hi. I am also looking at buying off the plan in vietnam. I would like to start a connection with someone to chat about this...

how did you go with the process?

Do you want to purchase the off-the-plan flat for investment or just for living purpose?

What I could tell you is "really tough", but there are several ways concluding it. Let me know if you still interest in it and pursue an insight.

Thank you.

HL.

DELAFON wrote:

Hello,

i know, a few of you are going to laugh. I don't care...
Important for me is to share this information and to see what we can positively do about the situation.

Global pin book situation in Thu Thiem, District 2 Saigon:
No new owner in Thu Thiem has obtained the pin book up to date.
In New City, I've been here for almost a year ... The sales manager in New City tells me that it is because of the government and that there is still at least 2 years before having a chance to get it...

What do you think ?

Ask us in two more years when nothing has changed.
But you can live in the apartment forever.
Which is what we told you tow years ago.

Wxx3 wrote:

DELAFON wrote:

Hello,

i know, a few of you are going to laugh. I don't care...
Important for me is to share this information and to see what we can positively do about the situation.

Global pin book situation in Thu Thiem, District 2 Saigon:
No new owner in Thu Thiem has obtained the pin book up to date.
In New City, I've been here for almost a year ... The sales manager in New City tells me that it is because of the government and that there is still at least 2 years before having a chance to get it...

What do you think ?

Ask us in two more years when nothing has changed.
But you can live in the apartment forever.
Which is what we told you tow years ago.

There are numerous properties throughout VN in the same situation.

You do have to wonder if any work is being done at the department that handles the pink books.

I think the easiest way is to take out a bank loan even if you have all the money. The reason being is that till you pay back the bank the property will belong to them and so they will necessarily use their own resources to do the due diligence and mandatory checks.. Sometimes for free.

Source Saigon times April 2019:

Article title: Poor demand strikes apartment segment in Q1

"The 1st quarter of the year saw a fall in both supplies and sales of apartment in HCMC, at 57% and 52%, respectively, over the same period last year"

"...in the first 3 months of the year, some 12,000 apartments were put up for sale, with 6,400 of them being sold..."

No further comments...

DELAFON wrote:

Source Saigon times April 2019:

Article title: Poor demand strikes apartment segment in Q1

"The 1st quarter of the year saw a fall in both supplies and sales of apartment in HCMC, at 57% and 52%, respectively, over the same period last year"

"...in the first 3 months of the year, some 12,000 apartments were put up for sale, with 6,400 of them being sold..."

No further comments...

It's sad if you got caught in that.

I don't think anyone wished this situation for you.

However, it is EXACTLY what some here warned you of a while back.

Hopefully things will turn around for you and your real estate holdings.

It is not sad for me at all.
This Saigon Times information is just confirming that I am kind of right when I recommend potential buyers not to buy now but to wait till there is a market price adjustment!

It would be sad for me if I was buying now at the price requested by the real estate developers.
And, I am not doing this, of course.

DELAFON wrote:

It is not sad for me at all.
This Saigon Times information is just confirming that I am kind of right when I recommend potential buyers not to buy now but to wait till there is a market price adjustment!

It would be sad for me if I was buying now at the price requested by the real estate developers.
And, I am not doing this, of course.

I thought you bought many  months back, with high expectations for great rental income?

Are you not holding that hard-to-lease property any longer?

I bought 3 properties 1 year ago.
Only one for renting purpose. 1 I live in another 1 and the 3rd 1 is for my business.
I plan to keep the 3 properties a long time and they all have a very good capital value increase.

My point with this Saigon Times is not about renting my properties or not.
My point with this Saigon Times information is just to confirm that I recommend potential buyers not to buy now but to wait till there is a market price adjustment!

hello M Delafon, thu thiem is one of the most if not the most hot area in real estate in hcmc because the gouvernement is looking to make it as the new CBD in 5/10 years from now. Are you looking for some investment ?

Tanguy pecault wrote:

hello M Delafon, thu thiem is one of the most if not the most hot area in real estate in hcmc because the gouvernement is looking to make it as the new CBD in 5/10 years from now. Are you looking for some investment ?

Finally! A consultant for @delafon...

Tanguy pecault wrote:

hello M Delafon, thu thiem is one of the most if not the most hot area in real estate in hcmc because the gouvernement is looking to make it as the new CBD in 5/10 years from now. Are you looking for some investment ?

Not in Thu Thiem for sure!!!

Thu Thiem is a "hot" area for the following reasons:

1) There are important issues related to the red book (final properties document for owners) in all existing real programs in Thu Thiem.
For example, NEW CITY, developper THUAN VIET: The problem here is that Thuan Viet has not yet paid the land use fee for the State, only temporarily paid on the temporarily calculated price, so they have no red books in the bank. It means Thuan Viet has been, and is still selling appartments without having the legal documents in its name... 
In terms of legal ownership, the current problem is to confirm the land use right of the New City project, which the Vietnamese government has not yet granted to Thuan Viet, because the New City project is also subject to legal difficulties in the inspection of the resettlement land fund Thu Thiem. Currently, investors and authorities are negotiating legal negotiations.

2) Selling prices on existing and newly properties are too high.
Don't buy now, wait for prices to go down.

Tanguy pecault wrote:

hello M Delafon, thu thiem is one of the most if not the most hot area in real estate in hcmc because the gouvernement is looking to make it as the new CBD in 5/10 years from now. Are you looking for some investment ?

This will be interesting.

DELAFON wrote:

Tanguy pecault wrote:

hello M Delafon, thu thiem is one of the most if not the most hot area in real estate in hcmc because the gouvernement is looking to make it as the new CBD in 5/10 years from now. Are you looking for some investment ?

Not in Thu Thiem for sure!!!

Thu Thiem is a "hot" area for the following reasons:

1) There are important issues related to the red book (final properties document for owners) in all existing real programs in Thu Thiem.
For example, NEW CITY...

Sorry to break your heart but New City is not considered part of Thu Thiem. Sala is the last property that is considered Thu Thiem.

Has anyone ever bothered to look into "alternatives" of options for property ownership as a foreigner?

As anyone ever bothered to spend a moment to think about "contract law" ???

Option 1) If you have a registered business in VN, you can register ANY type of "building & land) to your company ( Basically the land / house / building is in the name of the company.

Option 2) Register the building / land / house in a local Vietnamese persons name, with a contract specifically stating that you have "sole authority" over the governing of the residence.

I've accomplished both options, and both have both pros & cons to them....

As for those "condos" or any type of communal residence system in VN..... how is it any different of a result from China? All of the new construction that i have seen has lost its value DRASTICALLY just in the first year of ownership ....

Lets face it .... Communal Buildings have "communal problems" ... nobody wants to pay any money to slap a fresh coat of paint every 5 years, and everyone wants to lazily toss trash everywhere... not even to mention that very horrid quality of any of these supposed "professional" construction companies.... ( No drain traps on floor drains [ this is literally why houses smell like a toilet], rarely is oil based pain used [ water based paint is cheaper ], plumbing is rarely sized to maintain water pressure, i have yet to ever see tile grout with silicon powder mix ) .....

Source: SAIGON TIMES 11th April 209

Title: "Vietnamese Property Most Attractive in South East Asia according to Japanese Executive"

Article quotes:
- "The real estate market is the most attractive in South East Asia... said Yoshinori Nakata, Director of Japan's Gloval Link Cooperative... because of its safe and stable environment."
- "Japan's investment in Vietnam rose significantly between 2016 and 2018... The number of Japanese firms investing here in the country has surged, resulting in the increasing demand for offices and houses."
- "Many Japanese investors in Vietnam have said that the country has great economic potential..."
- "As many as 70% of Japanese businesses plan to expand operations in Vietnam, while some 88% expect their revenue in the market to grow in the future..."

If someone has to tell me it’s a good deal to invest in something it probably isn’t.

G’day Delafon.

If your talking INVESTING & TRADING the market ...TIMING is the thing you’ve got to get right.

If it’s a LIFESTYLE  choice....it doesn’t matter so much, because that’s the place you want to be , and the lifestyle experience your enjoying by
being there. 

At the moment ,,,the TIMING simply isn’t right.   The booms peaked , and given the size of the boom,,the bust will likely be long & take a while to recover.

In the  state controlled media here ,,ANYONE spruiking the market UP will have an agenda & a vested interest,,including Japanese “executives “
Remember the Asian financial crises of the late 1990s......the Japanese “executives” were caught with their pants down on that debacle.   Check it out...land in  Ginza district Tokyo was valued & “trading”. @ $750,000 a square metre......ridiculous stuff.     Thailand’s Baht was trashed by 75% as well due to the property “boom” there.

Highly inflated , speculative driven property prices ,,financed by money lent to idiots that would be out of their depth managing a Jar of 5 cent pieces had a lot to do with it.😳.    The GFC had a similar blue print.

The same can happen again......and here in VN it’s starting to smell like the above debacles.

I advised my wife and her friends that everything runs in cycles. Their reply was that prices never go down in Viet Nam- I remember 2010 in VN when it did just that. Land prices here in my provence have gone up 100% in a year and climbing, where the top is, who knows. Timing is everything as Yogi mentioned, knowing when to get out can save you a heap of cash.

Yep....the Asians don’t like to take a loss.....it’s the lose face thing.

They’d rather starve & let a place sit there empty than lose 1 dong on the deal.   Crazy.     Then , a foreigner comes along & rents the place for peanuts.😆

2010 wasn’t good , but this time around the LAND prices have got to ridiculous levels.     When I got here in 2011,  you could buy a block near the Marina Nth of Nha Trang for about $100/150 a sqm.  In 2014, they released new blocks for $300 sqm. 

Today, riding past this morning they’re asking $3500. Sqm.....and the place looks like a slum ridden scrap metal yard.    There’s shit & garbage strewn all over the entire neighbourhood.   

But there’s not a lot of actual MONEY changing hands.....it’s just idiots swapping contracts and adding a ZERO before “selling” to the next clown in line.   No one gets a penny until a fool weighs in with actual money.

The sad thing is the VN believe it will never end.  Some of them have mortgaged their homes,,and plonked deposits on several of these blocks & apartments in the hope of flipping for a quick sale.

My lady friend is trying to sell a place she actually owns.....but can’t find a genuine buyer with real money.,,and she’s in the Govt job that handles this stuff.

That” timing “ aspect is where the smarties do well.     A few young VN blokes got blocks not far from the Marina for @ $200 sqm.   They’ve built small apartment blocks of 10 units renting for 7/8 mill a month.   For less than $200k including the build costs ,fitout & furnishings,,,,those guys will recoup their outlay in about 4 years.      That’s how you do things. 😆

But now.....the land cost @ $3500 a metre.....they’d be looking at nearly 20 years to recoup the outlay.

As for foreigners making money here......we all know it’s hard getting money OUT of the country.  Generally , you can only take out what you bring in.

Does any know how you get the PROFIT out,,,?? 🤓

The multi nationals usually can .....but what about the rest of us .???      Yogi imagines there’s a few hoops to jump thru 🐾

Yogi007 wrote:

Highly inflated , speculative driven property prices ,,financed by money lent to idiots that would be out of their depth managing a Jar of 5 cent pieces had a lot to do with it.😳.

There are two causes of property price stupidity:

Greedy, lying, untrustworthy products of unmarried mummies with the ethics of rabid dogs (Property agents)

People too stupid to realise the truth of the above, and too greedy to see past the end of their noses when they smell cash.

These 'great deals you can't lose on' are very similar to Nigerian scams, they only work because fools and their money are soon parted.

Fred...Yogis not worried about the rabid dogs.......I’ve had a rabies shot, $250 f#+-ng dollars.......

Doesn’t protect you against Bimbo’s  though.........

I watch the Vietnamese.
It seems to me, the only way to actually make money is to buy the land at the right price and then get people you know to build a house cheaply.
Then sell the house.

Wxx3 wrote:

I watch the Vietnamese.

Good advice generally.  Certainly better than watching other expats.    What do you see locals doing with real estate investments now?  I mean other than their primary residence.   Buy, sell, or hold?   

THIGV wrote:

Wxx3 wrote:

I watch the Vietnamese.

Good advice generally.  Certainly better than watching other expats.    What do you see locals doing with real estate investments now?  I mean other than their primary residence.   Buy, sell, or hold?   

Many people are buying land and flipping it. The land opposite my in-laws sold for 1.6 billion vnd, a month later it's for sale at 3 billion and will sell without any problem. 

At present there is a land frenzy, many people are buying and flipping within a day. We bought two blocks in the countryside and it has increased 50% in a month and rising. 

colinoscapee wrote:

THIGV wrote:

Wxx3 wrote:

I watch the Vietnamese.

Good advice generally.  Certainly better than watching other expats.    What do you see locals doing with real estate investments now?  I mean other than their primary residence.   Buy, sell, or hold?   

Many people are buying land and flipping it. The land opposite my in-laws sold for 1.6 billion vnd, a month later it's for sale at 3 billion and will sell without any problem. 

At present there is a land frenzy, many people are buying and flipping within a day. We bought two blocks in the countryside and it has increased 50% in a month and rising. 

Delafon? Is that you? Shame on you for hacking Colin... 😁😁😁

colinoscapee wrote:

We bought two blocks in the countryside and it has increased 50% in a month and rising. 

I notice that you said "We."  I am not sure that flipping properties is an option conveniently available to expats not married to Vietnamese citizens.  For them, buy and hold is more like buy and stuck.

THIGV wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

We bought two blocks in the countryside and it has increased 50% in a month and rising. 

I notice that you said "We."  I am not sure that flipping properties is an option conveniently available to expats not married to Vietnamese citizens.  For them, buy and hold is more like buy and stuck.

Yep....apart from Venezuelan bread prices , vacant land in VN is the hottest market around.

But it’s not ranked or even mentioned by global property analysts.  Previously I mentioned the Knight Frank wealth report on world prime land prices & rankings......and given the prices being mentioned here ,VN would be ranked 6th in the world.   But it’s NOT even on the list of top 25.

Scratch your head for a while & you’ll figure out why. 

Wonder how things are going in Laos , North Korea & Cuba these days.

THIGV wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

We bought two blocks in the countryside and it has increased 50% in a month and rising. 

I notice that you said "We."  I am not sure that flipping properties is an option conveniently available to expats not married to Vietnamese citizens.  For them, buy and hold is more like buy and stuck.

Yes I did say "we", as in my wife and I. I also did this with a VN friend several times.

You asked what was happening in the real estate market, you didn't ask specifically about expats, so I just gave a general view as to what is happening. Being in the USA its a bit hard for you to fathom what is going on.

Colinoscopee:  Please understand that I was not criticizing you for doing what is good for you and your family.  I was just observing that not all avenues are open to all people.  I am well aware that rural land in particular has risen in percentage terms maybe more than anything else.  No matter where you are, the edges of the big cities experience the same phenomenon.  It is still a little crazy though.

Article by Bloomberg:
"Chinese Love Vietnam Property for All the Wrong Reasons"

A few selections:

"Last year, luxury home prices (in hcmc) soared 17 percent, while the rest of the residential market stayed largely flat, says Dung Duong, a research analyst at CBRE Group Inc., a real estate services firm.
It’s no surprise, then, that most Vietnamese are priced out. In 2018, only 23 percent of luxury homes were sold to locals, outpaced by mainland Chinese, CBRE estimates. South Koreans and Hong Kong residents followed closely behind"
.......
"There’s little point to a luxury condo without nearby infrastructure to support it. Keppel Land Ltd.’s Estella Heights is a case in point. Advertized for its family friendly location – across a busy highway is a residential area full of international schools and small cafes – the apartment complex has beautiful rooftop swimming pools and a children’s play area. Yet, right now, there’s no overhead bridge to walk to the school district. Plans to start one are hazy at best.
As for that metro every real estate agent is talking about: It’s being delayed – again. The city broke ground on its first subway line in 2012, but financial problems, such as ballooning costs and unpaid bills to Japanese contractors, keep coming. The finish date was pushed to 2020 from 2017, and even this deadline may not be met. Shanghai, in contrast, finished its first metro line on schedule in 1995. It’s built a dozen more since."

Full article at:
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic … eal-sector

I work with a real estate agent I trust who has many Chinese customers.
Here is what she says:
"Basically Chinese are just making the price up. They have a lot of cash, they don't really care about what they buy as long as its a property. Chinese believe in property, its a cultural perspective. Australia's housing prices soared as well, all made by the Chinese.

DELAFON wrote:

Article by Bloomberg:
"Chinese Love Vietnam Property for All the Wrong Reasons"

A few selections:

"Last year, luxury home prices (in hcmc) soared 17 percent, while the rest of the residential market stayed largely flat, says Dung Duong, a research analyst at CBRE Group Inc., a real estate services firm.

That pretty well proves the point about idiots driving the market.