Cultural differences between Vietnam and the West?

@70yearold
  I get your point about being stupid and moving on. I just dislike the idea that we put people in the stupid category because they do not understand or lack education. I think you are trying to tell me specifically to move on with the personal issues I have experienced. I do and have. We all experience the ups and downs of the road on the journey of life. I have and I will. But my personality is set in such a way that I get up in the morning back on the path to happiness for myself personally. But for me I do not think it is not instructive to look at what you went through and try to learn as much as possible. I know that may sound confusing and convoluted. No matter what my personal situation is with my ex. I do not think she is bad person, a stupid person or anything negative. Could she learn some things, sure, could I, sure. I do not have the answers for her and where she wants to go in life. I have the answers for myself only. I do hope you get my point. Boiled down to the nuts and bolts....there are just a lot of great people in the world, and all make mistakes. It is just nice to e able to talk to others and share experiences here. At least for me.

@70yearold
  That is odd that you say that there is no blood test for your wife's disorder in the USA. This has been a long known DNA mutation and can easily have tests ran to detect it There are many very prominent hospitals in the USA that were quite well versed on the disorder. To think that it could only be treated here....? I do hope you are getting the best advice possible.

This is the "Old Days" Medical care when our first daughter was born

I KNEW WHAT A doctor was. I’d met my first American when I was twelve, and worked for the American Navy for two years. The unborn child inside me was half-American. I knew all about foreign things like doctors. Still, half-American or not, my child would be born the traditional way. With the Americans gone, a doctor was out of the question.

The nearest doctor was four hours away over rough, dangerous terrain. Anyone attempting to travel the roads at night risked imprisonment or execution by either the VC or the Saigon Army, whichever caught the traveler first. With the Americans gone, doctors were for the very rich, like Americans, like my husband. Not that I was poor, my husband bought me for two cows. Two cows represented incredible, impossible wealth for a poor widow’s daughter, even if she had the good fortune to graduate from the third grade. It was a remarkable price, more than any other husband in the village paid for his wife.

Superstitious? Yes, I am. I’m oriental. I’ve witnessed incredible happenings. God, someone or something, must take an interest in human affairs. In Asia we believe the old wisdoms, what some call superstition. Vang, one of my two very special cows, is a perfect example. Vang gave birth to her first golden-colored calf the same day that I gave birth to my first beautiful, blue-eyed, golden-skinned daughter.

That morning was wonderful in other ways, too. The sunshine splashed over the surface of the rippling, silvery water between green, sandy banks. A clean morning breeze trailed softly over the autumn trees. Fallen leaves slept in the hazy October dew. A glorious Vietnamese Mekong Delta morning. Like every other morning, I walked slowly down to the river bank to check my two cows. Vang (gold) and Bong (flower) were contentedly eating the grass under the mango tree where they were chained. They were in their ninth month of pregnancy, as I was. Thank God for that. If we had to carry our babies for twelve months like the water buffalo, there would be no cow or human babies born. At least, not if other mothers felt as miserable I did. After I got there, Vang started crying, “Boooo.” I could tell by her tone that it was her time.

A moment later, it was even more obvious. There was no time for me to get help. I tried gently to pull the calf out by two of its tiny feet. Vang pushed. No luck. In my condition, it took a few minutes to gather my strength to pull harder. The calf came out. Calf and I both tumbled to the ground on top of some musty-smelling old hay. Vang looked weary, but she turned and started caring for her calf. I stayed to help. We were both happy to see the beautiful girl calf. I named her Sang (bright shining light). After Sang tried to stand several times, she finally got up, went to her mother and took her first drink of milk. I looked at her precious face and softly said, “I’m so glad you belong to me, little one.”

I should have gone home to tell my family then that we now had three cows. Three. Unbelievable wealth. My two sisters, younger brother, and I lived with our parents—two old widowed women, Mom and Grandmother. The big family house was burned down during the Viet Minh-Hoa Hao War twenty years before, when the family’s men were killed.

We were living the small house that I built three years before when I first worked for the Americans, a two-room shack. Frames and beams were bamboo, laboriously cut by hand. Palm thatch covered the walls and roof. I should have gone home right away, but instead I spent most of the day on the river bank with my new cow. Until I felt the pain inside myself.

I walked home as the pain grew worse. My family sent Uncle Tam on his Honda motorcycle to bring the midwife. No one in the village was rich enough to own a car. The sun was setting. The woods had already filled with shadows. A cool October breeze blew in the tiny window as I sat waiting for Ut, the midwife to arrive. Eventually she came. I’d seen Ut kill one of my older sister’s babies to save my sister’s life. I’d also seen her accidentally kill one of my mother’s babies.

I’d worked for an American Navy doctor long enough to appreciate modern medicine. But she was the best midwife in the village, and an old-fashioned, country midwife is better than no one. As soon as my uncle carried her small, old, shabby medicine bag into the house, Grandmother served the traditional hot tea and sweet cakes. Buddhists traditionally burn incense and a chicken head to welcome the midwife to the home of the family of a woman in labor. After finishing the ceremony, Ut came to the back room where, like Vang earlier, I was now crying for help.

“Well, well, you look old enough to take the pain. How old are you, child?” Ut asked, pulling a hot water bottle out of the bag, then giving me a piece of pure black Chinese medicine from a larger block. “Put this in your mouth.”

“I’m nineteen. Please help me, and my husband will repay you. You must save my baby. If you can’t, I want to die for my baby to live. I promised my husband that I’d save our baby.”
“That is poor, foolish talk. If the mother lives, then she will have another chance. I try to save as many lives as my ability allows. I may not be able to read or write, but I have sixty years’ experience at my job. I’ve saved many lives. Lost many, too. I believe it’s better for the child to die than the mother, if it comes to that choice. Besides, life and death are up to God.”

“Please try.” “I always try, honey. Is your husband an officer?” “He is American Navy, and rich.” “An American, he must be a millionaire,” Ut said, a smile lighting her old face.

“That’s not why I want my baby to live. Without my husband Sam’s help, my family would be dead now. He’s my hero. I do love him. He said he’ll be back for me. I’ll wait, even if it takes my whole life.”

“That’s good, child. Now, lie down and let me check.” I cried. At that point I didn’t even care if VC spies, attracted by the noise, investigated and discovered my half-American and killed both of us.

Miserable, hungry and hot, even in the cool October night, I cried for Sam to come help me, “Oi! Troi oi. Chet toi roi.”

“Calm down, baby, the VC will hear you,” Mom said softly.

“I don’t care. It hurts too bad.”

“I know, honey, I know,” Mom whispered, wiping my face with a cool cloth. Grandmother kept a white candle burning in the family altar in the middle of the house. She held on to her rosary beads, a worried look on her face as she sat with the other women.

“Mom, I feel like pushing,” I cried. “Good. That’s a good girl,” the midwife said. I looked at the clock. It was almost one o’clock when they took me out into the backyard next to the pig pen, where Mom washes her dishes. Vietnamese Christians believed that it was unlucky for a wife who hasn’t had a Church marriage party to give birth inside her parents’ home. Buddhists had similar superstitions. At that moment I didn’t care where I was. My family had hung an old straw mat to form three walls and placed a bright oil lamp inside. Mother held onto my head, and three other women were with me. “Keep pushing hard. More—more!” Ut yelled.

“I’m trying, just let me rest for while,” I panted. I couldn’t seem to catch my breath.

“No, child, it’s too dangerous to stop now.”
“I saw the baby’s hair,” another woman shouted. “Take a deep breath. Hold down. Push. Push harder,” they screamed. My body grew rigid with each push. Pain screeched through me.

“It’s no use. She’s too weak, can’t push. The baby’s too big for her.”

“Do something,” Mom cried. “Don’t let my baby die.” “Help! Anyone. Help! Help us, please!” Mom cried. Ut spoke.

“She and the child will die if the baby does not come soon. Damn! I have no more power.”
I was exhausted. My breath grew even shorter. I was about to give up. I became aware of my grandmother’s voice, clear and strong as always.

“Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Three Christian Gods, please help my granddaughter. Her life is in danger, out in the middle of the river with the typhoon wind. Please bring her back to the river bank. I beg you my mighty God.”

The other women’s voices joined in, and I grew even more scared. Those words were only for those on death’s doorstep. “With this holy oil and God’s power we will save his child from the evil.

“God is good,” the other women chanted. “God is good…” the sound of my grandmother’s chants came near me.

“Rub this oil around the baby’s hair and try with your finger carefully around baby head,” Grandmother instructed the midwife. My grandmother seemed to have taken over. A flicker of hope rose in me. Grandmother could do anything.

“Bac, don’t go sleep. Drink this holy water,” she ordered, pouring it in my mouth.

“Listen to me. Push harder.” I tried my best, again. “Go, go, go! Don’t stop!” the women shouted.

“The baby is out!” the midwife yelled. “Good, good.”

I grew limp. My body felt heavy and numb, but at least I was able to start breathing normally. Until Mom cried, “Oh, God, please. No! No! She is the family saver.” Shocked, I turned and watched as Ut pulled the baby out of the pan of water. It looked so silent and very pale. I was too tired to do anything but sob,

“Mary, mother of God, please bring my child back.”

Ut looked grim as she turned the baby upside down and slapped her rear again and again. Everyone held their breath as they watched. Finally, the baby cried out,

“Nhoa, ngoa.” Everyone’s breath escaped in a single “Whoosh,” and then they all laughed and smiled and nodded at each other.

For Two Cows I Ain't Half-Bad: the memoir of a young girl in the Vietnam War (pp. 17-18) Kindle Edition.

Diazo wrote:

@70yearold
  That is odd that you say that there is no blood test for your wife's disorder in the USA. This has been a long known DNA mutation and can easily have tests ran to detect it There are many very prominent hospitals in the USA that were quite well versed on the disorder. To think that it could only be treated here....? I do hope you are getting the best advice possible.

Today that is true 15-20 years ago was a different story. Before you mention "Mayo Clinic" according to a Doctor friend who was trained at the Mayo Clinic the Mayo Clinic was rather weak on "thalassaemia."
Also the test wasn't to determine if she had thalassemia. That had already been determined. The test she needed was to determine exactly which of the multitude of different thalassaemias that exist my wife had. That requires a rather specific DNA test that we were unable to locate in America.

While a hand full of people have been cured of thalassaemia, This has been by experimental DNA modification research in France and Thailand on carefully selected test subjects.

Believe it or not. World Class Medical Care is available in Vietnam. But, only in Hanoi, Danang and Saigon. We left our dream home and bought a condo to be near one of these hospitals.

Diazo wrote:

@70yearold
  I get your point about being stupid and moving on. I just dislike the idea that we put people in the stupid category because they do not understand or lack education. I think you are trying to tell me specifically to move on with the personal issues I have experienced. I do and have. We all experience the ups and downs of the road on the journey of life. I have and I will. But my personality is set in such a way that I get up in the morning back on the path to happiness for myself personally. But for me I do not think it is not instructive to look at what you went through and try to learn as much as possible. I know that may sound confusing and convoluted. No matter what my personal situation is with my ex. I do not think she is bad person, a stupid person or anything negative. Could she learn some things, sure, could I, sure. I do not have the answers for her and where she wants to go in life. I have the answers for myself only. I do hope you get my point. Boiled down to the nuts and bolts....there are just a lot of great people in the world, and all make mistakes. It is just nice to e able to talk to others and share experiences here. At least for me.

NO!! What I wrote is what our Doctor said. The Doctor said that we would be stupid if we did not go to Saigon for the 'world class' medical treatment that our local Doctor and friend could not provide.

I am sorry 70 year old. I was not referring to that post but an earlier post on stupid people and moving on. Don't take offense please. My comments were not intended to be directed at you. Just a feeling I have about intellectual abilit, education and disease we all have from time-to-time.... stupidity.
   With my children when they got all hauty about how smart they were Intried to find a humbeling example to prove my point while teaching them not to look down on others. On one such occasion I stopped the garbage truck when he was in front of my house. I asked my son to actuate the lever that moved a particulate part of the hydraulic system. He could not do it to save his sole. He quickly realized why we need garbage collectors trained at what they do also. I often remember these education field trips we went on when I too get full of myself. Even though on a daily basis I do stupid things.

I know some hospitals in Saigon that are quite good, but "world class" I think is stretching it a bit. Can you name the hospital you are referring to.

vndreamer wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

the only explanation I can come up with is the regime has succeed in their goal to dumbing down this society.

That is the root problem, just not VN, but across the globe.  It is the age old story of keeping the masses ignorant while the minority stay wealthy and educated, which basically equates to power and control.  Uncle Ho knew all to well and South VN, especially Saigon, hundreds of schools were closed and parents and children were threatened if they continued to send their kids to the wrong schools.  Of course, many ended up dead.

I have lived and worked in latin america, same story.  The rich are the minority and send their kids to the best schools and then off to the USA for University.  The masses struggle and have no access to a quality education and what makes matters worse, connections are extremely important and that is why many families end up marrying other family members because they would rather die than share their wealth with someone not of similar DNA (i.e., social economic status).

Based on my experiences in VN, I do not think I have ever come across a stupid VN person.  The problem I see is the lack of a formal education.  For example, the women I see working in the markets, even in smaller cities, are sharp as hell and I think, "wow, if these people had a formal education, how far could they go"? 

Do not think the Western world is not immune from the same problem.  Although we have a better formal education system, it does not mean the masses are well educated.  I could write books on the subject matter, but to keep it short, the education system in the West was and is designed and managed to keep the masses educated enough to be slave laborers and for those with desire, can break free from the farm.  The fascist in VN will have to decide whether they will need to upgrade the education system to have a better slave labor work force because technology is driving labor and if VN does not keep up, the masses are going to have a very difficult future, more difficult than today.

You have never met a stupid person here, come meet my neighbours, I'm sure they can change your mind.Lol.

Well when it comes to the DNA aspect of medicine of any kind we were only at the cusp of learning anywhere in the world twenty years ago . My dear friend . A research doctor was on the forefront of such reasearch in, what, Inguess it was abou 1982. Heck the DNA helix was not discovered until 1953. RNA long before that in the 1800's.
  what type does your bride have if I might ask?

City International was unquestionably World Class while it was a member of the Singapore based 'Parkway' chain. It is still an excellent Hospital and we do have a nurse visiting my wife everyday.

Diazo wrote:

Well when it comes to the DNA aspect of medicine of any kind we were only at the cusp of learning anywhere in the world twenty years ago . My dear friend . A research doctor was on the forefront of such reasearch in, what, Inguess it was abou 1982. Heck the DNA helix was not discovered until 1953. RNA long before that in the 1800's.
  what type does your bride have if I might ask?

While it does not have exactly the DNA variation of "Cooleys Anemia," it does fall into the wider basket of "Cooleys Anemia" because of it's current severity. http://www.thalassemia.org/

Left this post for sometime till I discovered the topic on thalassemia - a disorder mainly affecting most people in Asia, and not so common in States and the West. I was diagnosed with this disorder recently, being Asian, but it was that I am a carrier. But I will supposedly pass this on to my children.

If you are only a carrier, the important thing is to make sure that you do not have children with another person who has thalassemia. As long as only one of you is a carrier, the worst that can happen is that a child could also be a carrier and that is a 50/50 chance.

Also note, we are very close to a 'cure' for thalassemia. Their is some very complex DNA modifications that can be inserted into one's bone marrow. In fact 'bone marrow' transplant has been the 'cure, for some time. The issue being finding a doner.

Thanks for joining us again LSP. Actually it is a more widespread disorder than just Asia. Indeed it was first discovered in the Mediterranean region, hence it's name. But we have many indigenous diseases and disorders. Cooley and Lee were the first to get into this one. Then an Italian group got wind of their discovery and the rest is kind of history I guess.
Be interesting for 70yearold to share the DNA discoveries found in the cure. My wife saw this quite a bit in her practice, but a cure.....? The good thing is you won;t get malaria!!

I think we have hijacked the thread. But perhaps someone will learn something about this disorder. There are things you can do though if you think you want to have children. Explore that avenue fully before you take the plunge might be a good idea.

I would agree with the world class exaggeration. I suppose it depends on your interpretation of world class. But if you are unable to become accredited, then you are probably a long way off from being world class. As for HCM,  FV is the only one that is accredited. Would I ever think FV is "world class? And then not even there, is the lab accredited. But one could argue this is a matter of perspective. And if it works for you it works for me.
I am trying to find now where there are any world class clinical studies of any medical condition in VN.
70yearold has some info on these trials. I hope he will share. They are probably many who would like to participate. In the USA they post these trial and seek volunteers etc. Indeed, until this conversation 70yearold did not even know they could test for this disorder or that they had clinical research ongoing.

Off topic, but 70yearold I just got your book. Going to read tonight. Thanks. The excerpt helped motivate me BTW!! Great expat cultural education there. Thanks to both of you for sharing. Perhaps the best expat info found on this site.

http://www.thalassemia.org/

is the source to go to. As to details on possible cures, check out "designer babies" in google.

Note our first daughter, the one in the book excerpt, is a carrier, now in her 40's and has long decided not to have children.

A 9th Infantry Lt, the late Doug Reese was an old and dear friend. Bac and I try to continue some of Doug's work.

Douglas Allen Reese

Doug proudly served his country in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War, with two tours of duty. Doug was the recipient of the Purple Heart and the Silver Star.

Doug was passionately involved in the humanitarian efforts by relocating Vietnamese families to the U.S., which evolved into his work with the Vietnamese tourism industry. Over the past 20 years, his focus was healing the wounds of the American and Vietnamese Veterans.

Their are two cases that I've actually seen published information about and quite likely the only two patients that have had this wildly expensive DNA modification. To the best of my knowledge, the main current research is in the UK and China and involves modifying the DNA of fetal tissue. Using the DNA modification tool named crisper

https://www.neb.com/tools-and-resources … ar-biology

CRISPR/Cas9 and Targeted Genome Editing: A New Era in Molecular Biology
The development of efficient and reliable ways to make precise, targeted changes to the genome of living cells is a long-standing goal for biomedical researchers. Recently, a new tool based on a bacterial CRISPR-associated protein-9 nuclease (Cas9) from Streptococcus pyogenes has generated considerable excitement (1). This follows several attempts over the years to manipulate gene function, including homologous recombination (2) and RNA interference (RNAi) (3). RNAi, in particular, became a laboratory staple enabling inexpensive and high-throughput interrogation of gene function (4, 5), but it is hampered by providing only temporary inhibition of gene function and unpredictable off-target effects (6). Other recent approaches to targeted genome modification – zinc-finger nucleases [ZFNs, (7)] and transcription-activator like effector nucleases [TALENs (8)]– enable researchers to generate permanent mutations by introducing doublestranded breaks to activate repair pathways. These approaches are costly and time-consuming to engineer, limiting their widespread use, particularly for large scale, high-throughput studies.

Their is current research in America on other DNA diseases. But, to the best of my knowledge none involving thalassemia

Re: Education..... I have a friend in America who was married to a US serviceman and who was posted to UK and worked as an aircraft technician at a US airbase in the east of England. My friend is a doughty woman and highly educated, she decided to send her 3 kids to local English schools. She told me that in the main the education in the schools that her kids attended was similar to the US in terms of academic standards. However, the English schools were way ahead of the US schools in terms of maths and science.

I found that strange, but she insists that its true.

A few years later I visited her, now divorced and living in Virginia, where her eldest was attending a senior school.  I guess the oldest girl would have been 16 years old or so. Anyway, one evening she wanted to talk to "uncle" Matt about her science project, during the course of which she mentioned the fact that her science teacher had told them that the universe is expanding pretty damn quickly and had said that eventually however, the universe would collapse  and all come together again.

Now I know that this is a commonly held view in physics but I wanted to invoke a little curiosity in her, so I asked her what it was that would bring the universe back to being a blob again (sorry, singularity). She replied, "gravity."

So I asked her how that worked with the concept of the Inverse Square Law, which says, basically, the further the weaker - and also how that worked with the theory of entropy.

I could see that she was intrigued and she said that she would ask their science teacher the next day.

When she came home the following afternoon she told me that her science teacher on hearing what I had asked her, replied, "well its all only theories anyway" and had no other answer for her.

Which is a pity.

@eodmatt

I don't know the timeframe when you had this experience happen. But, American Education took a big hit when it switched to teaching sensitivity instead of the traditional courses. Thankfully our kids pretty well escaped that as they attended a small town school.

What I read, suggests that this is happening in Europe as well. You might look at

Amazon.com: From Dawn to Decadence: 1500 to the Present: 500 ...
https://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Decadence-P … 0060928832
Amazon.com: From Dawn to Decadence: 1500 to the Present: 500 Years of Western Cultural Life (9780060928834): Jacques Barzun: Books.

70 years old wrote:

@eodmatt

I don't know the timeframe when you had this experience happen. But, American Education took a big hit when it switched to teaching sensitivity instead of the traditional courses. Thankfully our kids pretty well escaped that as they attended a small town school.

What I read, suggests that this is happening in Europe as well. You might look at

Amazon.com: From Dawn to Decadence: 1500 to the Present: 500 ...
https://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Decadence-P … 0060928832
Amazon.com: From Dawn to Decadence: 1500 to the Present: 500 Years of Western Cultural Life (9780060928834): Jacques Barzun: Books.

Thanks 70, I'll have a look at your references. It was about 10 years ago - Troi Oi how time flies, it seems like only yesterday.

I find the changes in education very interesting. I used to instruct NATO EOD courses at senior level, (fuze identification and neutralisation; Land Service Ammunition Identification and Disposal; Protective Works; Landmines and UXO Detection and what have you).

The training and testing regime was fairly rigorous - you passed or you failed. If you failed you could have a retest.

Nowadays in the (western) civilian education system I think that the policy is that no-one fails.

Here in Vietnam the kids are educated all day and most of the evenings from what I see.

Nowadays in the (western) civilian education system I think that the policy is that no-one fails.

So true, and everyone gets a "PARTICIPATION TROPHY"..so sad.
This teaches children to think mediacracy is success and now these children are running the world.
....rise and fall of the western civilization, I guess.

Spmcintyre58 wrote:

Nowadays in the (western) civilian education system I think that the policy is that no-one fails.

So true, and everyone gets a "PARTICIPATION TROPHY"..so sad.
This teaches children to think mediacracy is success and now these children are running the world.
....rise and fall of the western civilization, I guess.

I'm not against, what the military calls, "I was there" awards." Most of the ribbons that are on my or any other person who was in the military's uniform are "I was there awards."  Having credit for three Vietnam tours is an "I was there." But it is also significant. Note, one of those tours was "Blue Water" and off the coast. Only two of the tours were actually "in country."

The issue is when individual achievement awards are not given. Even an individual award as low ranking as my "Combat Action Ribbon" that has the same number of points as my "Good Conduct" award are even more significant.

Note, the "Combat Action" and the "Good Conduct" are my highest awards and are about as low ranking as individual awards get.

@70, when I was told I was getting awarded the Good Conduct Medal, I did not think it was a big deal as I did not think I did anything exceptional.  Well, let's just say my Commander let me know just how difficult it actually is to be awarded the Good Conduct Medal.  He went on to tell me that basically the only way a person gets that award during peace time (My father served in the Vietnam War, not me) that your personal file had to be empty.  Even a parking ticket would disqualify you for the Good Conduct Medal.  He showed me my file and sure enough, it was an empty folder.

What is the topic of this thread?

Diazo wrote:

Thanks for joining us again LSP. Actually it is a more widespread disorder than just Asia. Indeed it was first discovered in the Mediterranean region, hence it's name. But we have many indigenous diseases and disorders. Cooley and Lee were the first to get into this one. Then an Italian group got wind of their discovery and the rest is kind of history I guess.
Be interesting for 70yearold to share the DNA discoveries found in the cure. My wife saw this quite a bit in her practice, but a cure.....? The good thing is you won;t get malaria!!

Actually, you will likely get Malaria. What happens is that you have something like a 72 hour flu and the Malaria is gone. The red blood cells just aren't able to properly feed the Malaria germs and they die from starvation. The mosquito dies as well. At least that is what I've heard. You talk about your wife's practice. Is she a Doctor or a Nurse?

Sorry, I should have been more specific. The malaria connection is with Alph thalassemia. My bad.

Diazo wrote:

Sorry, I should have been more specific. The malaria connection is with Alph thalassemia. My bad.

When it gets to the intermediate level, both alpha and beta are involved

Diazo wrote:

What is the topic of this thread?

Careful people.  This thread is Diazo's personal fiefdom.  Don't get his temperature up.   

eodmatt wrote:

70 years old wrote:

@eodmatt

I don't know the timeframe when you had this experience happen. But, American Education took a big hit when it switched to teaching sensitivity instead of the traditional courses. Thankfully our kids pretty well escaped that as they attended a small town school.

What I read, suggests that this is happening in Europe as well. You might look at

Amazon.com: From Dawn to Decadence: 1500 to the Present: 500 ...
https://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Decadence-P … 0060928832
Amazon.com: From Dawn to Decadence: 1500 to the Present: 500 Years of Western Cultural Life (9780060928834): Jacques Barzun: Books.

Thanks 70, I'll have a look at your references. It was about 10 years ago - Troi Oi how time flies, it seems like only yesterday.

I find the changes in education very interesting. I used to instruct NATO EOD courses at senior level, (fuze identification and neutralisation; Land Service Ammunition Identification and Disposal; Protective Works; Landmines and UXO Detection and what have you).

The training and testing regime was fairly rigorous - you passed or you failed. If you failed you could have a retest.

Nowadays in the (western) civilian education system I think that the policy is that no-one fails.

Here in Vietnam the kids are educated all day and most of the evenings from what I see.

Kids in Viet Nam are pushed too hard by their parents, some have no free time at all. This is not good!

Boy Coliniscapee that is sure true. Hate to loop this culture issue back to my wife. But this is exactly what caused her cognitive thinking errors. She was forced by her mom to do nothing but perfect work. If she turned in less than perfect her mom shunned and ignored her. She would give her and English word to pronounce . If she mispronounced it ( and how would her non-English speaking mom know it it was right or wrong) she would make her say the word a thousand times. She would first have to write it then say it so they could keep track.
  From this she learned ( or got the msg) that the only way to be lived was to be perfect. So sad for both. Her mom had no clue what she was doing to the child. And now the child/adult is damaged for life.

@colinoscapee
@Diazo

One of the benefits(?) of being old is remembering seeing the same thing in Japan 40 years ago.

And Japan is still that way. That is the Asian culture. When I lived in Japan they would send the elementary children to walking to school in short and short sleeve shirts in snow that was often over rooftops. Reason: to teach mental discipline.

No snow in VN but I walked to school and back home alone 5 days a week since first grade. School started at 7:00, so I left the house between 6:15 and 6:30.  No one in the family, except father, were awake.  Street lights were still lit and I was the only person (a child actually) walking the 2 miles on Tran Hung Dao Street.  I always stopped at the bakery to buy a square of sweet bread, ate it (sometimes with a scoop of ice cream inside) while dawdling the rest of the way.  Even so, I still arrived before the janitor opened the school gate and I liked it that way, just because.

Children didn't get coddled back then the way Diazo describes them today.

Ciambella wrote:

Children didn't get coddled back then the way Diazo describes them today.

Don't forget that Diazo's experience is not really the norm.  Also don't forget that part of what his ex-wife tells him may be just what she comes up with to counter his attempts to control her.

And don't forget that THIGV has no clue if I control my wife. You would think he lived with me and her. In the entire time we have lived together she has never been controlled by me. Where he gets these ideas is beyond me. In fact it is quite the opposite. While she has no friends I never told her she could not. To the contrary she refuses to allow me to have friends. She has full access to my income and I have no clue nor desire to know how much she makes. But the family gets none of it. She will not go to the market so I or the maids go to the market. She does not do housework or laundry . So I do the laundry and hire maids to do the rest.
  And my comment about cocooned children were in reference to other children not mine. I search my mind to recall a child that is not overly protected here. In fact I went out with a lady not long ago that had a 7 year old and she was still feeding the child at the dinner table. I told her let that boy feeed himself. His self-esteem will do wonders and he will be so proud of himself. As onexwould expect he threw a fit at first. He would not eat. I told her to tell him he did not have to eat tonight. And he was welcome to join us again tomorrow if he thought he might be hungry by then. He thought about itva moment and that did not sound so good to him. So he started feeding himself. I gave him a big hug as did his mother and I praised him for being a big person like us. He was so so proud of himself. His mom tells me she never had to feed him again after that.
  No I do not control anyone in my house. I have shared all that I have an they have full access to anything. Whatever it is they wish to do or try to explore I am behind them 100%.

Diazo wrote:

No I do not control anyone in my house.

It's not for lack of trying.  You may not control anyone but you certainly feel that it is your obligation to tell them what to do, even as in your own story, those for whom you have no direct responsibility.

70 years old wrote:

Spmcintyre58 wrote:

Nowadays in the (western) civilian education system I think that the policy is that no-one fails.

So true, and everyone gets a "PARTICIPATION TROPHY"..so sad.
This teaches children to think mediacracy is success and now these children are running the world.
....rise and fall of the western civilization, I guess.

I'm not against, what the military calls, "I was there" awards." Most of the ribbons that are on my or any other person who was in the military's uniform are "I was there awards."  Having credit for three Vietnam tours is an "I was there." But it is also significant. Note, one of those tours was "Blue Water" and off the coast. Only two of the tours were actually "in country."

The issue is when individual achievement awards are not given. Even an individual award as low ranking as my "Combat Action Ribbon" that has the same number of points as my "Good Conduct" award are even more significant.

Note, the "Combat Action" and the "Good Conduct" are my highest awards and are about as low ranking as individual awards get.

Well, I hear ya!

I got a GSM (General Service Medal) for going  to Northern Ireland a few times. One of the times was hmmmm how to describe it..... Ghastly really. Still have nightmares about it. They sent me the medal in the post. Obviously it didn't mean anything to the powers that be and, it sure doesn't mean anything to me now.

I got an LS&GC (Long Service & Good Conduct) medal for 18 years of undetected crime and, if ever a medal wasn't earned this is the one. I have to admit that I did break the odd rule during my 22 years of service and I should also say that I don't regret any of it. Rules are meant to be broken when the occasion demands.

Next time I'm in UK and if there is a call for me to attend a Remembrance Day Parade (as a civvy) I will proudly wear my two medals on my blazer and alongside them will be a beer bottle opener and a combat ration tin opener.