Brexit and its implications for British, HU and any other citizens

SimCityAT wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

Its getting funny now that Farage wants an extension

I don't think it's that funny - he wants an extension AND a general election.  That's because he'll wipe out the opposition with his Brexit Party.  I think he's almost got a shot at being PM post-BoJo.

He will split the Tories, he doesn't have that much support.

This is interesting Tusk fails to back Juncker as he refuses to rule out granting further extension

Tomorrow will be a very interesting day, just as well I am off work, hope it doesn't go on all night I have work early on Sunday.

Farage will split the Tories but he could become the largest party and the Tories pushed into 3rd or even 4th place.   

I think it won't get through looking at the numbers Boris needs - he needs 320 to pass his deal.   He can only rely about 290 and stuck with a pool of independents/factions of various ilks who have to be persuaded. 

According to LBC's parliamentary maths, it comes down to only 6 or so MPs to make difference on the decision.

Have look HERE and see what Sky says.

SimCityAT wrote:

Have look HERE and see what Sky says.

That pretty much covers it. 

Even if it passes, there's still going to be dissent on any enabling legislation.   

The devil is in the detail.

No surprise.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/19/worl … rexit.html

It almost seems that by 2120 the UK* will still be asking the EU for an extension.... ** 

* Or maybe just England, as the Irish would have unified, and the Scottish and Welsh would have left the UK.....    **

** Yes, I am being facetious.

klsallee wrote:

.....

** Yes, I am being facetious.

Don't be facetious - there's enough of that going on in the Parliament what with all the sniping and back stabbing.

What was that definition of madness? Doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.

I am sure that it's going to get cancelled in a second referendum.  People want to go back to business as usual.

BTW, BoJo screwed himself by removing the whip from 20 or so MPs and grandees who might have supported his efforts when the chips were down.

BJ has to send the letter, but there's no absolute guarantee every country will accept it.
One thing is for sure, the lack of a unified front is badly damaging the UK, and probably a lot more than anything Brexit would have done on its own. This is very much like trying to fight a war with half your army working for the enemy.
The only way out of this is a general election but the remainers are against that, probably because they know they'll get hammered if they go to the people, especially Labour MPs in the north of England.

Fred wrote:

BJ has to send the letter, but there's no absolute guarantee every country will accept it.
One thing is for sure, the lack of a unified front is badly damaging the UK, and probably a lot more than anything Brexit would have done on its own. This is very much like trying to fight a war with half your army working for the enemy.
The only way out of this is a general election but the remainers are against that, probably because they know they'll get hammered if they go to the people, especially Labour MPs in the north of England.

I don't think it's a good analogy for half the army working against the other half. It's not an army taking orders.   It's a democracy and everyone has their own opinion and it's almost evenly split - just a fact.   An army obeys the generals who get their instructions from the politicians.

Labour hasn't got a hope of winning an election - Marxism died out when the wall fell. But if there was one, Farage has a chance to wipe the floor with the Tories or relegate them to the fourth party.

The only way out of this without an election - and meaning the Tories give up power - is for BoJo to hold another referendum and I am sure he will lose it hands down.   If he does call an election in between the extension on the letter, then he might actually win that unless the Lib Dems join forces with Labour.  I cannot see that happening - it's a step too far to see Corbyn in No 10. 

One thing it might do is remove the DUP holding the balance of power  and give more room for manoeuvre.

BTW, I guess the letter will ask for the end of January 2020 or end of March 2020.   If he doesn't get acceptance, he'll just withdraw Article 50 for enabling it later on.  They can just write legislation to do that and I am sure he'd get a majority for it.  The EU doesn't have a say in that process.

Boris is a bad idea, Corbyn way worse, but Farage - Where's the sick bag?

Boris won't withdraw 50 and, if the EU can't agree on an extension, he'll very probably let the UK crash out. The remainer MPs might call for a vote to revoke 50, but that means MPs will have to nail their colours to the mast, a bad idea for many if they want to remain MPs after the next election.

Looking at the news, Boris is doing as much as the Benn act says he must, but also making it clear with his letter to Tory MPs he has absolutely no interest in doing so, the latter already having found its way to Europe far in advance of the Benn letter.

The dance continues....

fluffy2560 wrote:

Don't be facetious - there's enough of that going on in the Parliament what with all the sniping and back stabbing.

Hm.... Are we on the same page defining facetious? As far as I understand the word, it does not include sniping or back stabbing, both of which are neither humorous or amusing.....  https://www.dictionary.com/browse/facetious

Did you maybe misread it as factious?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/factious

I think sending a photocopy was facetious .. and stylish.

klsallee wrote:

...Hm.... Are we on the same page defining facetious? As far as I understand the word, it does not include sniping or back stabbing, both of which are neither humorous or amusing.....

I think Fred's nailed it there with his definition of the letter to the EU being flippant. 

On backstabbing I take my queue from the historical records surrounding Julius Caesar.   Backstabbing can be fun!

I cannot believe that we've sunk to the level that someone is trying to crowdfund the bumping off of Gina Miller!  That's really not very nice.  We are better than that surely. Besides she's a pretty cool person  with more cojones than many political types.

But otherwise, it's interesting now it's a flextension Brexit and rumours abound that the election will be just after Xmas followed up with Brexit proper end on 31 January 2020.

I have to agree.
Much as she ranks very low in the list of people I'd try to save from a burning building, I find a deliberate attempt to kill her somewhat distasteful.

Fred wrote:

I have to agree.
Much as she ranks very low in the list of people I'd try to save from a burning building, I find a deliberate attempt to kill her somewhat distasteful.

I dunno I think she's someone I'd rather like and respect.  I think I'd rather save her than say, Donald T or Nigel Farage.  Definitely not Tony Blair. Push him back in.

Anyway, LBC literally (1030h HU time) just reported that the flextension was granted to 31 January 2020.   Wasn't much else they could do but I reckon this means election for beginning of January 2020.

BTW, DUP is not agreeing to agreement - no border down the middle of the Irish sea.  They all voted against it.

So it's Brexit again and again, just on and blinking well on......like vikings and spam spam spam....

Looks like maybe another three months of pain and suffering:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/28/worl … nsion.html

Because the UK can not get its act together.

And I thought one of the reasons for the UK to leave was to get rid of EU bureaucracy.... Yeah.. Right. As is typical: those that point a finger at others forget that they have three fingers pointed back at themselves....   

klsallee wrote:

Looks like maybe another three months of pain and suffering:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/28/worl … nsion.html

Because the UK can not get its act together.

And I thought one of the reasons for the UK to leave was to get rid of EU bureaucracy.... Yeah.. Right. As is typical: those that point a finger at others forget that they have three fingers pointed back at themselves....   

I dunno if it's pain and suffering. It's just more like fatigue and uncertainty.  It's definitely not of the scale of death row. Imagine that scenario.  Cruel and unusual punishment right there.  Brexit is becoming a bit meh now.

I don't think it was ever bureaucracy as a major driver but more about self-determination.  But that's one of many influences in the Brexit mixing bowl.  At the time it was immigration but that's faded away somewhat IMHO. 

A lot of countries are stupidly paranoid about immigration - the UK, USA and Australia particularly come to mind.  I was having a discussion with an Aussie guy this morning and neither of us could actually work out what the real threat over immigration was.  It's a kind of nationalistic agenda pandering to local votes and annoying everyone else internationally.  Immigrants don't vote obviously.

The current thinking over there in my mothership (UK) is to consider allowing 16 year old kids to vote in national elections. I find that very unacceptable and almost like vote rigging.  18 is the age of majority and that's that.   There was even discussion that EU citizens can vote in a confirming national Brexit referendum.  Clearly they'd vote "stay".  Vote rigging again.

But on the other hand, it's always been the case that Commonwealth citizens with residency rights and for sure Irish citizens can vote in national elections and no-one complains about that.

fluffy2560 wrote:

neither of us could actually work out what the real threat over immigration was.

That's easy enough to sort.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with immigration and diversity, but there's a lot wrong with poorly or uncontrolled immigration.
Half the world wants to get to the US, UK, and a few other places but, if they were allowed to do so, those countries would no longer be able to sustain their native populations.
If a whole bunch of people went to the UK and started to work, the unemployment figures would go through the roof in no time, and that means a lot of very serious social issues, and very probably a lot of violence.
I also believe anyone moving from any country to any other country should be health checked for anything communicable, and vaccinations should be proven. Also, serious criminal records should exclude people from moving, from and to anywhere. That's why Gary Glitter can't get a passport, and quite right too.
One problem with Brexit, especially hard Brexit, is the immigration problem.The French government already makes it easy, or at least doesn't make it hard, for illegals to get over to the UK from France, but I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if they actually gave them train tickets after Brexit.
I trust the French government less that Boris or Farage, and I wouldn't trust that pair to pay back a borrowed quid.

Fred wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

neither of us could actually work out what the real threat over immigration was.

That's easy enough to sort.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with immigration and diversity, but there's a lot wrong with poorly or uncontrolled immigration.
Half the world wants to get to the US, UK, and a few other places but, if they were allowed to do so, those countries would no longer be able to sustain their native populations.
If a whole bunch of people went to the UK and started to work, the unemployment figures would go through the roof in no time, and that means a lot of very serious social issues, and very probably a lot of violence.

Yes, know all that, but it wasn't what I meant.  I was thinking more.  Obviously there has to be some checking on people that's just normal.  But skip past that bit.

What I really was interested in was why there was such a focus on that as a political point. It's like Trump and his wall.  Perhaps it's a way of creating an enemy and a threat even in peaceful times to leverage an ignorant and easily misled public.  And immigrants are  non-voters so appealing to them is pointless.  I'm more interested in the internal motivation of selecting that as a primary issue to gain power and who to target.

I recently passed US and Canadian immigration (unfortunately) in transit and it's all a bit ridiculous.  Why would anyone from any European or developed country want to stay there?  They want to go home unless they are the run.  Those folks can get their passports scanned at the machines in the UK and then they are through and out.  No reciprocal set up.

Maybe my quick diagnosis is already enough but I think possibly there's no real issue other than voter manipulation.

Fred wrote:

I also believe anyone moving from any country to any other country should be health checked for anything communicable, and vaccinations should be proven. Also, serious criminal records should exclude people from moving, from and to anywhere. That's why Gary Glitter can't get a passport, and quite right too.

Well actually that is normal to check as well but usually it's checks at residence permit application as that's higher risk of - for example - spreading AIDS (overdone fears if someone is on HIV anti-virals or uses Prep). I'd say dengue and malaria are worse risks.   Everyone can easily get their WHO ICV vaccination booklet out for their travel plans and it could be shown at visa applications.  Job done.   

But I agree on Gary Glitter.  No-one wants him in their gang.  Imagine if Jimmy Saville had been caught there too - Howzat then, Jimbo? He'd never have got out.  Or Rolf Harris - I don't really see why they don't deport him (his parents are actually Welsh so he must have dual citizenship - probably cannot rescind it). Whatever. Main thing is no-one wants him fiddling with his didgeridoo on their doorstep.

Fred wrote:

One problem with Brexit, especially hard Brexit, is the immigration problem.The French government already makes it easy, or at least doesn't make it hard, for illegals to get over to the UK from France, but I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if they actually gave them train tickets after Brexit.
I trust the French government less that Boris or Farage, and I wouldn't trust that pair to pay back a borrowed quid.

The French police apparently point the immigrants to the right places to get  on the trucks.   That came up with the Vietnamese deaths recently in the back of that lorry.   

Same issue happens in Hungary - the border fence pushed the immigrants onwards through to non-Schengen Croatia and thence to Slovenia where there were places just to walk through the border.  Once in Slovenia, that's Schengen and Calais is thereafter easy to reach.   I think it might be addressed now but when OV put up that fence there was consternation that HU was just pushing the problem onto their neighbours which is almost an act of aggression.  But that's HU thinking recently.

fluffy2560 wrote:

What I really was interested in was why there was such a focus on that as a political point.

You haven't been to Barnsley, have you?

Fred wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

What I really was interested in was why there was such a focus on that as a political point.

You haven't been to Barnsley, have you?

They wouldn't let me in there. 

No, not been for years up that way. 

Last place I was "up North" was Carlisle and Preston and that was in about 2018.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Fred wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

What I really was interested in was why there was such a focus on that as a political point.

You haven't been to Barnsley, have you?

They wouldn't let me in there. 

No, not been for years up that way. 

Last place I was "up North" was Carlisle and Preston and that was in about 2018.

Much of the north, Barnsley being of note because I'm from very near that dump, is openly racist.
By "Racist", I mean anyone not white used to be totally unwelcome, but are now sort of tollerated - sort of.
The first Asian taxi driver to try Barnsley had his car tipped over and was run out of town.
Racial abuse against staff in restaurants and take aways is common, almost required, and anything vaguely European is considered "Filthy foreign muck".
People there voted for Brexit in a pretty epic way, partially because they see the EU as a load of cash grabbing masturbatory sub humans, and partially because they hate the French .... and the Germans to a level. 
Let it suffice to say, the EU is about as popular in Barnsley as a very unpopular thing in a place where it shouldn't be, and any MP that openly supports remaining will very likely suffer a stunning defeat at the next election, but not to the tories because they're are about as popular as anything french in that town.

However, people there are otherwise very friendly.

The above doesn't reflect my personal views, and is at least part of the reason I have no wish to return to that area.

Fred wrote:

....
Much of the north, Barnsley being of note because I'm from very near that dump, is openly racist.
....
However, people there are otherwise very friendly.

The above doesn't reflect my personal views, and is at least part of the reason I have no wish to return to that area.

Oh dear!  Remind me never to go to Barnsley.   But it's not exactly on my radar anyway - why would anyone go there?   As I may have mentioned, I have close family connections up that way and I lived up there sort of that way (further over to the left) in the late 80s/early 90s but I've never heard anything about endemic racism around the place.   Look at Bradford - huge population of folk from Pakistan/India/Bangladesh etc. Safety in numbers.

I shall never return "up north" anyway -  I think I'm in HU for the duration what with having a HU family now.     Probably I should be grateful for living in a country now where only 50% vote for an openly racist, antisemitic, homophobic, bigoted, fascist, nationalist and stupefying manipulating party.

Interesting bit about antisemitic votes when you consider the whole Soros thing was set up by 2 American Jews.
Much as Finkelstein and Birnbaum's fun plan was horrible in pretty much every way, you have to admire their work, and use it as a manual in how to spot a well organized set-up.

However, will the 12 December UK general election get spiked?
It's in a lot of people's interest to get the UK out of the EU, especially if you read the bits in The art of war about removing a potential threat before they get strong enough to be a problem, that possibly including a combined EU military.

States known to interfere in other nation's elections are very likely to come out to play.

Fred wrote:

Interesting bit about antisemitic votes when you consider the whole Soros thing was set up by 2 American Jews.
Much as Finkelstein and Birnbaum's fun plan was horrible in pretty much every way, you have to admire their work, and use it as a manual in how to spot a well organized set-up.

However, will the 12 December UK general election get spiked?
It's in a lot of people's interest to get the UK out of the EU, especially if you read the bits in The art of war about removing a potential threat before they get strong enough to be a problem, that possibly including a combined EU military.

States known to interfere in other nation's elections are very likely to come out to play.

Yes, indeed - that F&B model was strange indeed.  But the Hungarian right is nothing but adaptive and they've even extended it and repeated it but many are becoming wise. It's not rocket science.   We've had anti-immigrant, we've had Soros/Jewish conspiracy, there's been the CEU (Central European University) as an issue - all enemies unable to fight back. 

But we're not sure if OV will try for the EU as the enemy because he receives a lot of funding from them and you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

OV's star is beginning to wane.  They managed to elect a pro-reform (or at least opposition) mayor in Budapest so that's highlighted the differences between the voters in the countryside (pro-OV) and cities (anti-OV).   I wouldn't be so crass as to distinguish the voters as uneducated right wing vs the educated leftist liberals.  I am sure someone is going to comment on that.

Anyway, wavering on 12th December for an election in the UK.  I have no idea if BoJo will win or it'll just be deja-vu.   I did read that 50,000 HU citizens have registered for settled status in the UK.  I am happy about that because it'll provide a diaspora with a different viewpoint who may come back to infect, oops,  I meant educate,  the rest of them on the positiveness of liberal inclusive thinking.

The Tories are showing well in the polls, and have been since rubbish May realised she was rubbish and scuttled off to wherever rubbish politicians go when they're politically dead.
Boris, whilst clearly a git, is also a strong leader and that's what the UK needs right now. Corbyn is even more rubbish than May and the only reasons he's still leader is the far left are pushing for a Marxist at the head. The electorate know he's a prat and will very likely punish Labour as they did the Tories under May. Brexit, the party, might very well hold a party on 13 Dec.

Nigel (There's a powerful name you associate with great leaders </sarcasm>) is after a pact with the Tories. Power at any price is his goal. Deputy PM if the Tories can't do it alone?

Fred wrote:

Nigel (There's a powerful name you associate with great leaders </sarcasm>) is after a pact with the Tories. Power at any price is his goal. Deputy PM if the Tories can't do it alone?

Nigel will have to be elected to Parliament and some Conservative will have to give up their seat to be the only candidate worth electing in that seat.   In other countries, Minister is a job you can be given but not in the UK - elected office. It's not a banana republic (quite yet).

I think it's going to be a cliffhanger. It'll be interesting if it's another hung parliament or Nigel wipes the floor with the opposition.

Brexit update:

It's all bets might be off with the election looming next month.  Nigel himself is not standing as he has a bit of a failure record in general elections despite his popularity.  His goal is to be appointed ambassador to the USA so he can have more face time with the Teflon Don. 

It's supposedly a straight up Boris vs Jeremy bout but the Lib Dems are complaining for not being considered the 3rd party in the TV debates.  If they let the Lib Dems in for the debate, it'll have to include the Brexit party.  Brexit Party has said it won't contest seats where the Conservatives are standing.  That'll nobble Labour utterly as no-one wants - under any circumstances - a failed Marxist grandad and his sidekicks in the hot seats.  I couldn't believe that Diane Abbott was being discussed for Minister of Defence.  Like her, it doesn't add up*.

Economically, Australia/NZ are considering suing the UK and EU for messing up their exports to the region. Moreover, Brazil suggests the Irish Sea border is against WTO rules.

And last bit, EU has sent a nasty letter to the UK government because they didn't nominate a commissioner.   Still in the EU until they are not.

Tusk or one of those fellas said it wasn't too late to stop Brexit.

In the meantime, Hungary's nominated commissioners keep getting rejected.  They want the enlargement portfolio and very strangely that might include enlargement for Turkey what with the distasteful love fest going on with Orban and apparently now Erdogan is being feted by Trump.  In the same theme, the EU stabbed North Macedonia and Albania in the back.

As usual, no-one knows what is going on.


* this refers to her car crash of an interview on LBC over police numbers.

fluffy2560 wrote:

As usual, no-one knows what is going on.

I would say anyone with at least three brain cells knows what is going on. As long as those cells tell the digestive system not to swallow the cool-aid from politicians et al.

The Republic (law based) system is okay. But that is also currently failing to the Populist politician* call of the tyranny of the majority. They use the "D" word as only a means to their end, and when they get to their end, they remove the real modern meaning of Democracy (which really means a liberal rules based republic system of government). But they don't care about words. After all, East Germany was officially called the Democratic Republic of East Germany. It was neither democratic nor a real modern republic. Far right or far left, when it comes to getting and holding power, they all use the same political playbook.

Personally, I think any country willing to experiment with a unwavering commitment to a benevolent, listening Technocracy or Scientocracy may be something to consider.

*Politicians are useless. They only are there to help themselves and their cronies. Not sure why we need them. In fact, the world may be better off if they did not exist. Too many today in so called "Democracies" are drifting toward a Demagoguery or even a Theocracy.

The LibDems are a bit pathetic .. sorry, that's unfair, they're a lot pathetic

The Labour party is attacking Boris with a slightly deranged sheep known as Corbyn

The Tories are run by a dangerous populist fool, but one that has the only set out agenda on any policy point and is great at PR

As for the EU, their bull over the last couple of years has been a fine demonstration as to why the UK should get out.

The comments regarding politicians in the post above is a bit hard to argue with. I see it this way, serving politicians should not be allowed to earn any money at all except their official salary.
Do that and see how many of the corrupt sods stay around.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

As usual, no-one knows what is going on.

I would say anyone with at least three brain cells knows what is going on. As long as those cells tell the digestive system not to swallow the cool-aid from politicians et al.

In general we know what is going on insofar as it's usual business to suddenly come up with election related money for this and that.  After austerity, they suddenly came up with some substantial cash.

That's because, they are in the so called purdah period where no substantial policies can be announced.  Boris is still PM and government continues but only in a caretaker role.

What we don't really know about is where Brexit is going which is what we really want to know.  So we're all in limbo.   On the 13th December, we'll know where we are going but I think we'll be going nowhere fast STILL - all the wheels will be spinning but there's no traction.  If the Lib Dems get in and it could be a possibility - there's no-one else to vote for, at least for some of the electorate, it's no-Brexit.

klsallee wrote:

The Republic (law based) system is okay. But that is also currently failing to the Populist politician* call of the tyranny of the majority. They use the "D" word as only a means to their end, and when they get to their end, they remove the real modern meaning of Democracy (which really means a liberal rules based republic system of government). But they don't care about words. After all, East Germany was officially called the Democratic Republic of East Germany. It was neither democratic nor a real modern republic. Far right or far left, when it comes to getting and holding power, they all use the same political playbook.

Yes, well, as usual what's in a name? I just saw a documentary on the fall of the wall, what with  it being the 30th anniversary.  Plenty of deadly lessons there.   Their version of democracy was communist.  But it's just the same as DPRK (North Korea).  I've had the pleasure of travelling by road to Berlin while it was still separated and immediately afterwards.  The place was way behind West Germany.  It was at least 30-40 years behind in social development.  It was worse than Hungary was like when I first arrived in 1994.

They have had some experiments in a few places when people were given the opportunity to vote on everything via voting technology. It was a disaster that gummed up the works.  People would quibble over the most stupid stuff like when the rubbish/garbage was collected.  People don't really need to vote at that level.  One can always hire a chef to take care of the menu.  People can delegate but some people cannot even do that.

klsallee wrote:

Personally, I think any country willing to experiment with a unwavering commitment to a benevolent, listening Technocracy or Scientocracy may be something to consider.

Without the label, maybe we already have that and this is what it's like.  It's a sort of directed muddle averaging out a direction. I suppose that's what you get out of it. 

klsallee wrote:

*Politicians are useless. They only are there to help themselves and their cronies. Not sure why we need them. In fact, the world may be better off if they did not exist. Too many today in so called "Democracies" are drifting toward a Demagoguery or even a Theocracy.

At the moment, there's a bit of push back (it's feedback loop after all) - we've seen that in the HU elections with the opposition finally getting out the OV lackys  in Budapest and elsewhere. If DT gets the push - people aren't getting what they wanted - then the others should start disappearing.  Unfortunately, religious fascists will take too long to disappear.  Another few years of Donny will p*** off a lot of people.   

I was only just reading up on Elizabeth Warren.  I doubt she's got a chance though but looks like she might just make the others start thinking - I had to smile about her billionaire tax.  Like that'll happen! 

I was disturbed to hear in some reports that some CBP people had used Gilead like language when checking passports. I couldn't believe that was creeping into daily speech in the USA.   If so, they're doomed.

It's all over.  31st January 2020. 

BoJo has a substantial majority. 

What's more disturbing is that the SNP won so many seats. 

The poison dwarf Sturgeon says that's a mandate to have another Scottish independence referendum.  Her argument is that if it's OK for NI then it's OK for them. 

Anyone British has a dog in all those races not just the Scottish contingent.  I hope BoJo will just tell the dwarf that it's not going to happen and to work on other matters within the Brexit context.  BoJo doesn't need the SNP to get things done so tough luck and two fingers to you Nicola.

I hope that BoJo's plans sort out quickly the UK-inter EU arrangements for things like mutual recognition, insurances, health care, mobile phone services, banking and blah-blah. 
 
I'm going to be annoyed arriving at BUD airport from the UK and have to queue up more than necessary and have the Vam going through my bags.

The poison dwarf is really very silly, but since all the arguments for brexit are the same as the arguments for Scottish independence, the Jocks above the border have a point.
However, since Boris has it tied up and the traitors effectively castrated, politically at least, the UK can renegotiate and Europe will have to offer a serious deal. The EU only had one real power to argue with, that being the traitors, but all they can do is wimper from whatever dark corner they hide in. It's also rather amusing to see the lady libdem boss stuffed like a haggis.

The missing story is yet to come, that being the total breakup of the EU, something that could well happen as EU taxpayers are told they'll have to pay what the UK stops coughing up upon Brexit.

fluffy2560 wrote:

The poison dwarf Sturgeon

By commenting on her physical appearance in this way, you are dehumanizing and objectifying her. And you are really coming across as a misogynic. You, who claims to be a liberal. Sad.... Stop it. Else from your rhetoric it might be hard to tell you apart from white male privilege groups in the USA...... Which is really sad.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Anyone British

Maybe there is your problem in thinking. Many Scots may think of themselves first and foremost as Scottish, not British. The Union is relatively a recent part of history, no reason why one needs consider it fixed and unchangeable. In fact that seems that is mostly an English world view.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I hope BoJo will just tell the dwarf that it's not going to happen

Sounds almost like an Englishman calling for an other Rough Wooing..... 

After all the Irish and the colonies got tired of the English. The Scots seem to be moving in that direction, and the Welsh are getting an inkling for the same. If you want to people in a union maybe start by not dehumanizing their leaders. More from carrots than sticks. Just saying.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

The poison dwarf Sturgeon

By commenting on her physical appearance in this way, you are dehumanizing and objectifying her. And you are really coming across as a misogynic. You, who claims to be a liberal. Sad.... Stop it. Else from your rhetoric it might be hard to tell you apart from white male privilege groups in the USA...... Which is really sad.

Ooo...fighting talk.....

Ah, well how wrong you can be!   Bit of a cultural deficit there matey.

I was actually drawing parallels to the character Lucy Ewing in the TV show Dallas. In the UK media, Lucy Ewing was referred to as the poison dwarf..

In that show her character's personality that she's always up to some scheme or other to manipulate others in some dodgy way but doesn't really understand her own situation until she realises becoming more conciliatory works better.   

I don't actually know how tall she is.  She could be the poison stick insect.

Any apology? 

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Anyone British

Maybe there is your problem in thinking. Many Scots may think of themselves first and foremost as Scottish, not British. The Union is relatively a recent part of history, no reason why one needs consider it fixed and unchangeable. In fact that seems that is mostly an English world view.

I think I know better, what with it being my country. I wouldn't call the Act of Union of 1706/1707 (which both countries ratified) 300 years ago as recent history (although 300 years ain't long for the UK).   

We're all mixed up as people amongst the home nations so we're all invested and we should all have a say.  Everyone in the UK (apart from some in NI) knows they are British first. 

In any case, BoJo isn't going to cave in to what Sturgeon says.  They will be out the EU anyway as she has no power to be the one trick pony/one hit wonder she aims to be.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I hope BoJo will just tell the dwarf that it's not going to happen

Sounds almost like an Englishman calling for an other Rough Wooing..... 

After all the Irish and the colonies got tired of the English. The Scots seem to be moving in that direction, and the Welsh are getting an inkling for the same. If you want to people in a union maybe start by not dehumanizing their leaders. More from carrots than sticks. Just saying.

Tut-tut.  That's not true.  The UK wanted to divest itself of the further colonies as it could not afford to keep them.  They mostly had autonomy anyway.   All colonies have their own parliaments and govern their own affairs apart from defence and possibly foreign affairs.   Wales hasn't been a separate country for almost 500 years.   As for the Irish getting rid of the English, the English were never in Ireland.  The only presence there was the British.   

And besides, the Scots voted against independence previously and that's a 50-year decision.   The  population voted SNP but that's because they couldn't face voting Conservative or Labour.  It's not about independence despite what Nicola said in the past.  She even said that herself this morning.

Fred wrote:

The poison dwarf is really very silly, but since all the arguments for brexit are the same as the arguments for Scottish independence, the Jocks above the border have a point.
However, since Boris has it tied up and the traitors effectively castrated, politically at least, the UK can renegotiate and Europe will have to offer a serious deal. The EU only had one real power to argue with, that being the traitors, but all they can do is wimper from whatever dark corner they hide in. It's also rather amusing to see the lady libdem boss stuffed like a haggis.

The missing story is yet to come, that being the total breakup of the EU, something that could well happen as EU taxpayers are told they'll have to pay what the UK stops coughing up upon Brexit.

The Scots may think that but I cannot see BoJo agreeing to even think about it.   Doesn't need the SNP to pass laws for the entire country.  All the opposition is way below his majority.

I think it's a bit of a shame about the Lib Dem leader as she seemed fundamentally honest if rather naive.  Corbyn is now in the bin.  No way that Marxist message of McDonnell was an easy sell. Been there, done that, what idiots.  And of course BoJo gets his adoration as a Churchill substitute and an absolute mandate to ram Brexit through.

Really speculating here but there are a couple of things going on in the EU which could be part of the break up  - Poland, Czech Rep and Hungary are not signing up to climate change and judicial autonomy. And the autocratic nature of Eastern European leaders pretty much leads one to believe without the EU oversight, we'll enter a period one party right wing states  with Putin at the centre of a regional grouping.   Maybe even end up with 1956 again.  Pleas for help will go unanswered (again).

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

The poison dwarf Sturgeon

By commenting on her physical appearance in this way, you are dehumanizing and objectifying her. And you are really coming across as a misogynic. You, who claims to be a liberal. Sad.... Stop it. Else from your rhetoric it might be hard to tell you apart from white male privilege groups in the USA...... Which is really sad.

Ooo...fighting talk.....

Ah, well how wrong you can be!   Bit of a cultural deficit there matey.

Ran your original comment by many women I know. All found your comment very insulting to women. You are arguing from the completely wrong perspective. And that is an insensitive one. And  very non-liberal. That is why there is a growing "Me Too" movement. So many men just don't get it when they are insulting women. So, all other comments by you are just excuses along that same line of ignorant insensitivity (such as trying to excuse this as a cultural issue.... oh, please... an excuse could not be worse). If you don"t get that, I can not help you.

Man up. Yes. You need to apologize.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Anyone British

Maybe there is your problem in thinking. Many Scots may think of themselves first and foremost as Scottish, not British. The Union is relatively a recent part of history, no reason why one needs consider it fixed and unchangeable. In fact that seems that is mostly an English world view.

I think I know better, what with it being my country.

That is one way to look at it. Anther way is you are only expressing your English opinion about what you call "your country" should be. Much like a "Northerner" had their opinion versus a "Southerner". Or a Royalists versus Parliamentarians. White rose versus red rose. Careful. Your biases are showing. Else should I mention all the times you comment about my country? Which were always to me cool, because I respect your opinions --- so should you* (if you claim to be liberal) when it is visa-versa.  Shocking as it may be... others may have different opinions..... And those opinions may have a good point.

* Does not mean you have to agree with it or like it of course.....

klsallee wrote:

.....
That is one way to look at it. Anther way is you are only expressing your English opinion about what you call "your country" should be. Much like a "Northerner" had their opinion versus a "Southerner". Or a Royalists versus Parliamentarians. White rose versus red rose. Careful. Your biases are showing. Else should I mention all the times you comment about my country? Which were always to me cool, because I respect your opinions --- so should you* (if you claim to be liberal) when it is visa-versa.  Shocking as it may be... others may have different opinions..... And those opinions may have a good point.

* Does not mean you have to agree with it or like it of course.....

Nah, it's my British opinion  and the name of the country UK gives you a clue how I can claim at least more than a passing interest, even close to a level of expert "sovereignty" over the discussion.    Perfectly legit to say I have an interest as does anyone else from the UK.   BTW, those were civil wars - war of the Roses, Roundheads etc.  So they weren't nationalist events. 

We're not so divisive in the UK over the home nations.  It's one thing we don't do which is different to the USA.  We don't label people African Americans or Latino Americans or whatever or witter on about genetic heritage like 1/4 Russian, 1/4 Brazilian or whatever.  No-one cares in the UK as we have other anchors for who we are. A lot of the time one finds mixed up heritage in the UK as people moved around.  People are usually just British first and then might in passing say they are Scots, Irish, Welsh or whatever but it's not really important for anyone except the SNP or maybe nationalists in NI. 

Unfortunately the poison dwarf wants to sow divisions and split the country.  I don't see why she should want to do that. Everyone knows she's very capable and articulate in many ways and she could have been PM of the entire country if she had played her cards right.  She'd do better improving the record of the SNP in real stuff like education, health care etc.  They've an abysmal record there.

Please do "fight back" about the USA.  Bring it on!  How about California independence then? I don't claim an investment in that at all but I'm sure you do!