Brexit and its implications for British, HU and any other citizens

I think 104 relates to EASA; for those that don't know, it's the EU equivalent of the US FAA or the UK's CAA.  In the EU, if you operate (so work on, or drive aircraft), you must be EASA licensed.  There were derogations based on where the pilot was resident (so US-based could fly on their FAA licence).  This is probably not the place to start talking regulatory matters, but suffice to say, it shouldn't be an issue, when we switched to EASA, it was simply novating one authority for another, it should be reasonably simple to switch back (just change the logo).  As long as CAA continue to operate to EASA standards, nothing changes, move along the bus please.

We already operate to EASA standards, nobody in their right mind would seek to lessen those and I suspect that most of the people who drive these aircraft wouldn't drive them to a lesser standard anyway.

Our aircraft manufacturer is primarily Airbus (which contrary to popular opinion is not owned by the EU, it's a multi-national conglomeration, who will always build to EASA) and the military (who are exempt, Crown immunity etc).  I can recall an interesting conversation with an RCMP security guy when he asked for my pilot's licence and I told him I didn't have one; HM the Queen licences all military pilots; he then asked me who she was; I pointed to the photo on the wall behind him; he never actually asked me if I was a pilot, which would have been really interesting (I'm not).

Cynic wrote:

I think 104 relates to EASA; for those that don't know, it's the EU equivalent of the US FAA or the UK's CAA.  In the EU, if you operate (so work on, or drive aircraft), you must be EASA licensed.  There were derogations based on where the pilot was resident (so US-based could fly on their FAA licence).  This is probably not the place to start talking regulatory matters, but suffice to say, it shouldn't be an issue, when we switched to EASA, it was simply novating one authority for another, it should be reasonably simple to switch back (just change the logo).  As long as CAA continue to operate to EASA standards, nothing changes, move along the bus please.

We already operate to EASA standards, nobody in their right mind would seek to lessen those and I suspect that most of the people who drive these aircraft wouldn't drive them to a lesser standard anyway.

.....

I agree, it must be something to do with EASA.  But it's less licensing for pilots/crew but manufacturing. 

Without the full text, we don't know why the EU has to wave it's magic wand.  But it seems ridiculous that perfectly acceptable aircraft certification is ok on the 31st December but not on the 1st Jan.   Who thought that fudge was good enough?  Shorts Brothers (then Bombardier, now Spirit) have been making aero parts in Belfast for years (OK, arguably different in NI).  But there's even BAE on the mainland.  All involved with Airbus.

That brings me to what this structure of the negotiating teams on the EU  and British sides were? I'd have thought Frost on the UK was Chief Negotiator and there were smaller teams per chapter.  But we've never heard any of those details.  They could have published it by chapters.  To me it looks like a Heads of Agreement type discussion paper.   

Perhaps we've all got the wrong end of the stick.  The summary could have been written in haste and not very well either.  But BJ had to get it over the line and had no time to get the nuances out the way.  Announcing an agreement became more important than the content.

Full Text of the Agreement:

Brexit Trade Agreement - Full Text - 1200+ pages

That brings back some memories; Shorts (used to be RAF Sydenham); my first visit it was just transitioning; they made the Skyvan there and then later on the Milan missile (which I was involved in); the old RAF Fire Training dump later became Moscow Camp during the troubles and was my home for 6 months.

Later on, was Bombardier - now - called Spirit and it makes parts for Airbus (A220 wings), they will use EASA standards until the FAA creates it's new corporate headed paper.  I've never read the EASA Regs, but I suspect they will be remarkably similar to what the FAA and CAA produce, other modes have UN level "guidance" documentation that shares the same Section Titles and paragraph numbers.  This is partly brought upon the aviation industry because of the existence of IATA which while appearing to be a regulatory body, is, in fact, a trade association.

Anyway, UK currently already manufacture and operate to EASA standards; nothing changes unless we change it - I will be amazed if we do, the only real aviation business we have with the US is exempted.  Airbus will continue to insist on EASA; hence my earlier thought; there is no point in creating yet another layer of administration when there is nothing wrong with the existing one, so change the headed paper - yes; more regs, no, that was never the point of Brexit.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Full Text of the Agreement:

Brexit Trade Agreement - Full Text - 1200+ pages

Wow, thank you - full of legal gobbledygook; I don't get paid to do this stuff anymore, so I shall leave it to the individual trade associations to produce their summaries.

Cynic wrote:

That brings back some memories; Shorts (used to be RAF Sydenham); my first visit it was just transitioning; they made the Skyvan there and then later on the Milan missile (which I was involved in); the old RAF Fire Training dump later became Moscow Camp during the troubles and was my home for 6 months.

Later on, was Bombardier - now - called Spirit and it makes parts for Airbus (A220 wings), they will use EASA standards until the FAA creates it's new corporate headed paper.  I've never read the EASA Regs, but I suspect they will be remarkably similar to what the FAA and CAA produce, other modes have UN level "guidance" documentation that shares the same Section Titles and paragraph numbers.  This is partly brought upon the aviation industry because of the existence of IATA which while appearing to be a regulatory body, is, in fact, a trade association.

Anyway, UK currently already manufacture and operate to EASA standards; nothing changes unless we change it - I will be amazed if we do, the only real aviation business we have with the US is exempted.  Airbus will continue to insist on EASA; hence my earlier thought; there is no point in creating yet another layer of administration when there is nothing wrong with the existing one, so change the headed paper - yes; more regs, no, that was never the point of Brexit.

I've flown in a Skyvan from Hull to Amsterdam.  It was an odd arrangement inside.  Like a flying Transit van with seats but with more noise and rattles.   I said to the guy next to me that it was an old design and they were still making them and he said, "Yup, I'd like to know when they'll finish this one".  Rather nice riposte.

I agree, there must be basically the same titles in all the  regs. I am not that up on EASA but I do know about mutual recognition for vehicles. Individual USA manufactured parts are all acceptable in the EU.   Seems hardly necessary to wait for the EU to let things digest.

IATA is just a union.  ICAO is UN level overarching supranational but they aren't regulators, more like holders on things like mutually agreed passport standards and airline liabilities.

Latest from BMBAH....

HU Permanent Residence Permit

fluffy2560 wrote:

I've flow in a Skyvan from Hull to Amsterdam.  It was an odd arrangement inside.  Like a flying Transit van with seats but with more noise and rattles.   I said to the guy next to me that it was an old design and they were still making them and he said, "Yup, I'd like to know when they'll finish this one".  Rather nice riposte.

I agree, there must be basically the same titles in all the  regs. I am not that up on EASA but I do know about mutual recognition for vehicles. Individual USA manufactured parts are all acceptable in the EU.   Seems hardly necessary to wait for the EU to let things digest.

IATA is just a union.  ICAO is UN level overarching supranational but they aren't regulators, more like holders on things like mutually agreed passport standards and airline liabilities.

LOL - I may have been the guy sat in the seat next to you; I used to make that journey quite a lot. 

Anyway, IATA and ICAO both predate the EU.  IATA is a trade association (some accuse it of being a Cartel), read the back of the ticket the next time you fly; it's been around for a long time (1945) and created just after ICAO - it is in no way, shape or form a Union.  IATA was created mainly because ICAO don't actually own any aircraft of their own and the guys of Panam, TWA etc were not happy giving a group of bureaucrats any say in how they operate their aircraft.  Anyway, I shall stop as this is going off-topic (again).  None of these bodies (from the UN down) are Regulators; Nation states have always reserved the write to regulate their (in this case) air-space.  It's only the EU that have created a regulatory body in EASA; something I grew increasingly uneasy with as it absolved politicians of accepting the responsibilities of their decisions.

Always happy to discuss this kind of stuff, I used to teach it and it's much more fun being able to give my opinion rather than follow the party line to pass an exam.

Cynic wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I've flow in a Skyvan from Hull to Amsterdam.  It was an odd arrangement inside.  Like a flying Transit van with seats but with more noise and rattles.   I said to the guy next to me that it was an old design and they were still making them and he said, "Yup, I'd like to know when they'll finish this one".  Rather nice riposte.

I agree, there must be basically the same titles in all the  regs. I am not that up on EASA but I do know about mutual recognition for vehicles. Individual USA manufactured parts are all acceptable in the EU.   Seems hardly necessary to wait for the EU to let things digest.

IATA is just a union.  ICAO is UN level overarching supranational but they aren't regulators, more like holders on things like mutually agreed passport standards and airline liabilities.

LOL - I may have been the guy sat in the seat next to you; I used to make that journey quite a lot. 

Anyway, IATA and ICAO both predate the EU.  IATA is a trade association (some accuse it of being a Cartel), read the back of the ticket the next time you fly; it's been around for a long time (1945) and created just after ICAO - it is in no way, shape or form a Union.  IATA was created mainly because ICAO don't actually own any aircraft of their own and the guys of Panam, TWA etc were not happy giving a group of bureaucrats any say in how they operate their aircraft.  Anyway, I shall stop as this is going off-topic (again).  None of these bodies (from the UN down) are Regulators; Nation states have always reserved the write to regulate their (in this case) air-space.  It's only the EU that have created a regulatory body in EASA; something I grew increasingly uneasy with as it absolved politicians of accepting the responsibilities of their decisions.

Always happy to discuss this kind of stuff, I used to teach it and it's much more fun being able to give my opinion rather than follow the party line to pass an exam.

I don't know why I was sent on the Skyvan from Hull. They could have sent me from Manchester or Leeds for a more comfy journey.

I'm might be confused - when we had paper tickets I did read the back of them and I used to read about the 1967 Montréal Convention which is a multilateral treaty on liabilities and other stuff.  That's an ICAO thing and they are part of the UN system.   I was always interested in the SDRs - where I first came across the term.  SDRs have figured in my life ever since.

IATA is definitely not part of the UN system and not a treaty organised so it seems to me that it is a union (association or cartel, whatever label fits).  They do have standards of course.  Maybe I misread what you said.

I'm also thinking of Eurocontrol.  Covers UK so I wonder if this survives Brexit although it's nothing to do with the EU, it does have links to EASA. 

I remember when there was nothing but trouble with ATC at West Drayton. I used to live near there. I was stunned how antiquated it all was.  Obviously it's not there now and we should be grateful it's been modernised.

Date:  31st December 2020, Time 00:00h CET

In love and remembrance,  this evening we lay to rest UK membership of the European Union.

Gone and but not forgotten.

Leaves behind 1M disenfranchised and Brexit agreement disadvantaged UK resident and EU resident UK citizens.

RIP....

...sniff...sniff....

fluffy2560 wrote:

Date:  31st December 2020, Time 00:00h CET

In love and remembrance,  this evening we lay to rest UK membership of the European Union.

Gone and but not forgotten.

Leaves behind 1M disenfranchised and Brexit agreement disadvantaged UK resident and EU resident UK citizens.

RIP....

...sniff...sniff....

You never know, might be a blessing in disguise.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Date:  31st December 2020, Time 00:00h CET

In love and remembrance,  this evening we lay to rest UK membership of the European Union.

Gone and but not forgotten.

Leaves behind 1M disenfranchised and Brexit agreement disadvantaged UK resident and EU resident UK citizens.

RIP....

...sniff...sniff....

You never know, might be a blessing in disguise.

Quite the opposite Marilyn

SimCityAT wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Date:  31st December 2020, Time 00:00h CET

In love and remembrance,  this evening we lay to rest UK membership of the European Union.

Gone and but not forgotten.

Leaves behind 1M disenfranchised and Brexit agreement disadvantaged UK resident and EU resident UK citizens.

RIP....

...sniff...sniff....

You never know, might be a blessing in disguise.

Quite the opposite Marilyn

I suppose as a 3rd country national I don't fully understand what you're missing with leaving the EU.
Right now the world seems so topsy turfy that maybe, just maybe the EU will demand things from it's member's and those in the UK can give a huge sigh of relief that they don't get dragged into something we can't foresee right now.
Don't worry you always have your cousins in the US that have always stood ( most of the time at least) with the UK other then that affair we had in 1776!
Sorry trying to be funny but perhaps right now it could seem scary but it will work out.
I read somewhere that most all the rights of being in the EU will extend to ex-pats who had registered here in Hungary as residents.Not sure what that involves but as a US citizen I am always treated like I have a horn sticking out of my head, something one has to get used to.
The immigration office isn't fun if you must use them but it is doable.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

You never know, might be a blessing in disguise.

Quite the opposite Marilyn

I suppose as a 3rd country national I don't fully understand what you're missing with leaving the EU.
Right now the world seems so topsy turfy that maybe, just maybe the EU will demand things from it's member's and those in the UK can give a huge sigh of relief that they don't get dragged into something we can't foresee right now.
Don't worry you always have your cousins in the US that have always stood ( most of the time at least) with the UK other then that affair we had in 1776!
Sorry trying to be funny but perhaps right now it could seem scary but it will work out.
I read somewhere that most all the rights of being in the EU will extend to ex-pats who had registered here in Hungary as residents.Not sure what that involves but as a US citizen I am always treated like I have a horn sticking out of my head, something one has to get used to.
The immigration office isn't fun if you must use them but it is doable.

UK cannot avoid being part of Europe as that's where it's located.  UK will of course help Europe wherever it can and if it's able. But at least militarily, I don't see anything covered by the EU that isn't covered by NATO.  One winner might be Russia. Maybe they even manipulated the referendum. Who knows for sure.

All the background things that went on in the EU didn't really directly seem to affect people very obviously but there were things which were really in your face - free movement,  ability to live and work in member states, pan-European healthcare, visa free travel, mutual recognition of qualifications and many other things.  Most of those things are gone now for us. 

The US-UK relation is a strange one.  The UK will always follow the US but the US doesn't follow and assist the UK (people have long memories - Grenada invasion for example).  Many people in the UK think the US will only act in it's own interests and Trump embodied all that very visibly and vocally. Can the US be trusted again  to be a reliable partner? Perhaps not for many years until trust is reestablished.  If the US can elect a maniac to that powerful position, then everyone is going to be super suspicious of any motives.

So it's a kind of fantasy to think there is anything more special to the UK-US relationship.  There's always a kind of diagnosis going on when a new President comes in.  The UK thinks the UK should be the first place the new President should visit but we see Biden is planning on Germany.  The UK would see it as a kind of snub but hardly surprising where the power lies in Europe. 

We here who bought into the European integration thing have been sold out by nutters in the UK. It's going to cost us.  I'm already concerned about inter-country travel for work and business within the EU.  There will always be a "papers please" situation now at the border whereas previously we could just go straight in.  They will want to see return travel arrangements, money, maybe even visas and god knows what else to justify a stay. Mrs Fluffy used to get hassled entering the UK if not with me and all that went away on accession. But now it's all going to be back again.  Over years, I bet it all gets relaxed but it'll take another 5 years before that works out.

Definitely there's  a sense of loss.

I can see how a feeling of getting ripped off can affect those from the UK.
I suppose I can't miss what I never had, we Americans are always being asked for papers everywhere we go.
Have to wait in lines to enter at the airport in fact my last trip to the USA I was asked to wait while they took a photo of me for some facial recognition scan,even with my US passport.
OK, I had a care free attitude as I walked ( the plank) to the passport control booth. I was probably the last person walking in off the plane, we were in no hurry after landing and we were  jet lagged. I had put my passport in a pocket of my bag and couldn't find it right away, I just sat down in the walkway and dug inside my bag. No "normal" behavior I guess. I was too relaxed so of course they had to bug me.Or it could of been because on our way out of the US I refused to walk through a scanner and had a body search instead. They made it really dumb and took their time doing the search just to dissuade people from opptting for a body search. Another time both my son and i were pulled out f line even though we were in different lines to board. We both wore black leather jackets and black jeans and both have red hair... Why ? Was it pick on gingers day in Vegas?

Some good news for some Brit Expats; UK driving licence will continue to be accepted in the EU countries.  The E111 will also continue to be accepted as was up until 31 Dec 2020, until the current card expires; a new scheme will replace it - I'll keep an eye out for that.

Cynic wrote:

Some good news for some Brit Expats; UK driving licence will continue to be accepted in the EU countries.  The E111 will also continue to be accepted as was up until 31 Dec 2020, until the current card expires; a new scheme will replace it - I'll keep an eye out for that.

it's good news but doesn't give us back what we had before.   

Many callers to LBC radio were saying how there was inequity in the deal and I can sympathise with that view. 

As far as I can tell EU citizens who were registered in the UK can work without limitations in the EU (of course) but they can also work in the UK.

UK workers registered in an EU country cannot as far as I know. 

Registration is not cross EU so an EEA registration card (for example, here in HU) does not allow work in any other EU country. So that's not right or equal treatment. 

The only card that allows EU cross working is the EC permanent residence card after 5 years.

HU is currently saying our EEA registration card can only be traded for a HU permanent residence card, not an EC one.   

So that's definitely unequal treatment.  BoJo and Co never thought about that and sold many people out.

British people are now not covered by the free movement treaty rights.  The new agreement substitutes that and it means we've lost ground.

HU permanent residence only covers Hungary and stays longer than 90 days in 180 days without visas.

The visa thing is just ridiculous.  How long is that going to last?   UK allows 6 months for EU citizens!!  Again, inequality.  Why the UK agreed to that lack of reciprocity is beyond my understanding.

Oh, and then there's the ETIAS system - I think from 2022.  Painful.

fluffy2560 wrote:

it's good news but doesn't give us back what we had before.

Quite true, but they were items that were in doubt previously.

As to "what you had before", short of rejoining the EU, that's never going to happen and not in the power of the UK Government to grant you guys; as you correctly point out, the EU citizen living in the UK seems to have a much better deal than the UK citizen living in the EU.

Cynic wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

it's good news but doesn't give us back what we had before.

Quite true, but they were items that were in doubt previously.

As to "what you had before", short of rejoining the EU, that's never going to happen and not in the power of the UK Government to grant you guys; as you correctly point out, the EU citizen living in the UK seems to have a much better deal than the UK citizen living in the EU.

Yup, we're stuffed.  I am not sure how it could even be challenged - looks ripe for disputes on every level. I wonder though if it'll morph into some kind of Swiss type arrangement over the years.  I worked in Switzerland before and after EU cross border working and it was a ludicrously complex system there.  Waste of time really job wise but excellent for skiing at the weekend.

Some UK NHS guy on LBC was saying that there are thousands of jobs to be filled in nursing which cannot be filled within the UK and now, probably cannot be filled from Poland, Bulgaria or wherever.   A nurse rang in and said she trained as a nurse but is paid less than being a carer so she was going back to that.  Quite a muddle.   

I can imagine how the people of Yugoslavia felt as their country disintegrated.  Ok, the EU is not a country but I know from working in Yugoslavia that many - particularly in Serbia - felt particularly aggrieved.  The other countries less so as they saw freedom from the centre. 

It's going to seriously affect families who bought into it.  I met one bloke there in Belgrade - his parents were Slovenians.  He was working and living in Belgrade for years and he had a Serbian wife and kids.  When the break up came, he had no real choice but to become Serbian.  To even visit his parents, he needed a visa but they didn't need a visa to visit him.  They could just about do it but they were old so eventually they'd have to stop.   He was very annoyed about it and didn't mind telling anyone.

Even my kids will be affected - some are British only and some dual nationals.  Who knows what it'll do for them!

Interesting how BoJo's Dad is now becoming French.  I guess that would also make BoJo French as well as a lapsed American.   

I suppose I shouldn't worry really.  I've not got that long before I reach retirement age.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Yup, we're stuffed.  I am not sure how it could even be challenged - looks ripe for disputes on every level. I wonder though if it'll morph into some kind of Swiss type arrangement over the years.  I worked in Switzerland before and after EU cross border working and it was a ludicrously complex system there.  Waste of time really job wise but excellent for skiing at the weekend.

Some UK NHS guy on LBC was saying that there are thousands of jobs to be filled in nursing which cannot be filled within the UK and now, probably cannot be filled from Poland, Bulgaria or wherever.   A nurse rang in and said she trained as a nurse but is paid less than being a carer so she was going back to that.  Quite a muddle.   

I can imagine how the people of Yugoslavia felt as their country disintegrated.  Ok, the EU is not a country but I know from working in Yugoslavia that many - particularly in Serbia - felt particularly aggrieved.  The other countries less so as they saw freedom from the centre. 

It's going to seriously affect families who bought into it.  I met one bloke there in Belgrade - his parents were Slovenians.  He was working and living in Belgrade for years and he had a Serbian wife and kids.  When the break up came, he had no real choice but to become Serbian.  To even visit his parents, he needed a visa but they didn't need a visa to visit him.  They could just about do it but they were old so eventually they'd have to stop.   He was very annoyed about it and didn't mind telling anyone.

Even my kids will be affected - some are British only and some dual nationals.  Who knows what it'll do for them!

Interesting how BoJo's Dad is now becoming French.  I guess that would also make BoJo French as well as a lapsed American.   

I suppose I shouldn't worry really.  I've not got that long before I reach retirement age.

UK NHS was 43,000 nurses short; there is nothing new about that, it's been that way for years, ever since Blair made all his reforms and borrowed all the PFI money to expand the NHS.  Covid has exposed the stupidity of it all because it's now impossible to maintain a professional network of ICU trained staff, so they don't even bother to try any more.  They just tried to bring back the recently retired doctors and nurses who have left the NHS in the past 5 years - none of them could lift a scalpel because they haven't had any diversity training and most of them told the Government to go and get stuffed.

Cynic wrote:

UK NHS was 43,000 nurses short; there is nothing new about that, it's been that way for years, ever since Blair made all his reforms and borrowed all the PFI money to expand the NHS.  Covid has exposed the stupidity of it all because it's now impossible to maintain a professional network of ICU trained staff, so they don't even bother to try any more.  They just tried to bring back the recently retired doctors and nurses who have left the NHS in the past 5 years - none of them could lift a scalpel because they haven't had any diversity training and most of them told the Government to go and get stuffed.

43,000 nurses is a lot.  Education cannot chuck out that number of nurses tomorrow.   There was a time a while ago when then were importing nurses (including some jobless doctors masquerading as nurses) from The Philippines.  My mother was in hospital at that time and she said they were all very good.  For them, at that time, it was massive opportunity as they were paid normal NHS nursing rates.   Bit of an ethics question - taking out medical professionals from where they are needed - brain drain and all that.

One of my relatives and partner were on the medical side in the NHS - cleared off maybe 5 years ago to work in healthcare in the UAE.  Both of them were extremely senior and went off there and show no signs of coming back to help out.  I notice from the UK hospital programmes a very large range of nationalities still working there but how long they can work flat out, who knows. 

I see the vaccinations are now being stalled due to staffing issues.

The total NHS jobs short is 100k, that's why they have been bringing in medical students in to help out.

SimCityAT wrote:

The total NHS jobs short is 100k, that's why they have been bringing in medical students in to help out.

Wouldn't surprise me if they were 10% short - NHS employs over 1M people.  They'll always have a turnover.  But short in what? 

If it was cleaners or receptionists then that's relatively easy to source I'd have thought.  Surgeons, nurses and so on, completely another matter of course.  Years of training.

I think there's a metric for civil service vacancies I read in a book once. Something like 15% of all slots remain unfulfilled all of the time and the system has enough resourcing slack generally.  Obviously that model is out of the window.

One upside of COVID19 can be surprising - heard of an actor who got a temporary job during the pandemic helping out a place for mentally ill people and now decided that acting is out and training to be a mental health nurse is the right way to go.   Said it was eye opening and never realised how much it could mean to do that type of work.

fluffy2560 wrote:

43,000 nurses is a lot.  Education cannot chuck out that number of nurses tomorrow.   There was a time a while ago when then were importing nurses (including some jobless doctors masquerading as nurses) from The Philippines.  My mother was in hospital at that time and she said they were all very good.  For them, at that time, it was massive opportunity as they were paid normal NHS nursing rates.   Bit of an ethics question - taking out medical professionals from where they are needed - brain drain and all that.

One of my relatives and partner were on the medical side in the NHS - cleared off maybe 5 years ago to work in healthcare in the UAE.  Both of them were extremely senior and went off there and show no signs of coming back to help out.  I notice from the UK hospital programmes a very large range of nationalities still working there but how long they can work flat out, who knows. 

I see the vaccinations are now being stalled due to staffing issues.

It's certainly a big number, but more importantly, what does it mean.  The bottom line is the Government will do anything to avoid adding to the public head-count, primarily because of the way the structure is today, that for every new nurse, there is a requirement for 0.03 of an administrator, HR person, estates worker, porter, training requirement, Health & Safety person, a bigger canteen, more car parking; if they can't show that, then they can't employ the nurse.  The NHS get around that by using overtime (they call it the NHS Bank); my wife won't work overtime, but my daughter is currently working 7 days p/week (she has an extension to pay for) and the Covid environment is generating a lot of demand.  Vaccinations haven't stalled so much, but they're working Mon>Fri 9 to 5, mainly because the extra staff they need to work the evening/weekends can't be used because the NHS system requires them to be currently trained in whatever skill they are being used for (incidentally, you shouldn't be surprised, the Health & Safety at Work Act requires every single person working in the UK to be so trained).  If people want this thing stopped quickly, then they need to bring back Crown Immunity and suspend the training requirement of the Health & Safety & Work Act for a month at a time until the numbers start to fall.  There is precedence for that, they have already done it for truck drivers and the logistics industry.

Cynic wrote:

.....the NHS system requires them to be currently trained in whatever skill they are being used for (incidentally, you shouldn't be surprised, the Health & Safety at Work Act requires every single person working in the UK to be so trained).  If people want this thing stopped quickly, then they need to bring back Crown Immunity and suspend the training requirement of the Health & Safety & Work Act for a month at a time until the numbers start to fall.  There is precedence for that, they have already done it for truck drivers and the logistics industry.

Didn't know about H&S at Work Act but not surprised about that. 

There's a BBC article on people giving up - click here

I found it odd at the beginning they were thinking lifeguards and flight attendants could be roped into it.  It would take weeks to get through all that training listed.

No such requirements here.  They could get anyone vaguely familiar with pointy objects to do it. If you're a chef, you're in, carpenters and electricians too! All using pointy things.

I see Israel is really moving it along - they've even got drive in centres for vaccination.

Further to my post in the other thread...

I got severely hassled by German border guards over my HU registration card.  This was last night when  I returned to HU.   

The Germans do not recognise this card as valid saying it's not a residence permit.   No, it's not, it's a registration card.  They hassled me, even though it's currently equivalent until at least the end of the year (2021).   

My experience suggests not to volunteer this card at any border other than HU unless pushed to prove your status.   

I could hear from their conversation that they were trying to determine the length of my stay in Hungary.  As it happens, I "still have" 30 days of 90 days in 180 days so the big boss said, stamp it for 30 days.  I cannot see where it says 30 days on it but it must be recorded in the computer.

Of course it makes no difference to me so long as I can get in here because the card is recognised here as the HU government issued it.

I would also say, flying via an intermediate airport to the UK is ill advised.  Best to go on direct flights there and back and avoid being given s**t by Schengen jobsworths.

I'm afraid it's Brexit Ballcocks again.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Further to my post in the other thread...

I got severely hassled by German border guards over my HU registration card.  This was last night when  I returned to HU.   

The Germans do not recognise this card as valid saying it's not a residence permit.   No, it's not, it's a registration card.  They hassled me, even though it's currently equivalent until at least the end of the year (2021).   

My experience is not to volunteer this card at the any border other than HU unless pushed to prove your status.   

I could hear from their conversation that they were trying to determine the length of my stay in Hungary.  As it happens, I "still have" 30 days of 90 days in 180 days so the big boss said, stamp it for 30 days.  I cannot see where it says 30 days on it but it must be recorded in the computer.

Of course it makes no difference to me so long as I can get in here because the card is recognised here as they issued it.

I would also say, flying via an intermediate airport to the UK is ill advised.  Best to go on direct flights there and back and avoid being given s**t by jobsworths.

I'm afraid it's Brexit Ballcocks again.

I'm sorry that happened to you, what a scare.
I know I'm going to ruffle a few feathers but we NEVER step foot in Germany if there is any way we can avoid the place.
Had nothing but hassles everytime we were there in one way or then other.
Boarder crossing, cancelled fights, lost luggae rude behavior from airport staff,BS when trying to ship a car back to the states, rude behavior by a German citizen on a train , being scammed at a motel, having to pay for 2 rooms instead of one rom because our son was 12 years old and the rules were 2 adults per room, not 2 parents witha child. Oh, yes broke a tooth because while forcing us for the 2nd night in a row to stay there due to no plane out Ihad to eat some pig slop they served us in a hotel we had to stay in. The rice was so hard my tooth cracked in half on the first bite. Pain but I just held it in and had the tears roll down my face. Never told them because I know the drill, they would say I was faking it or something.
One flight outta there they delated the plane so long while having everyone on that flight stand in line for hours. There were senior aged people in line who had just come from visiting the camps there on a tour. Nice way to say  thanks for visiting our cuntry. I finally got to the clerk at the front of the line and said I want water and so does everyone else in line. I'm was surprised the actually listened to me. They gave me a wateer bottle and had a cart of water rolled out t give everyone something to drink after hours of standing in line.
I happened to have a few protien bars in my carry on and gave them out to some seniors who were ready to crash from waiting so long.
Just don't need the agravation of being there for any reason. My family roots are from Frankfurt too, what a shame...
Direct flights are best.

Further reminder of 2022 ETIAS €7 registration and authority to travel within the EU:

Brits and Americans must pay €7 to travel to the EU from 2022


More concerning regarding permanent residents is this (my highlighting) which increases uncertainty no end:

"If you live in an EU member state country, ETIAS may or may not affect you depending on your nationality. Residents in Europe will not be affected by ETIAS in their resident country. However, if they intend to travel to Europe, it may be necessary to obtain an ETIAS.

At present, those who are residents of a European country will not require an ETIAS in order to carry on living in the respective European country. Residence in a Schengen country does not qualify for the ETIAS, as it is strictly for travel purposes. However, there may be further regulations for those who wish to leave their residence country and visit another Schengen country.

If you are a foreign national who requires a Schengen visa in order to visit other European countries, it is likely that you will still have to apply for a Schengen visa. Those who require a visa in order to visit other Schengen countries will not require an ETIAS.

On the contrary, residents in European countries who did not previously need a visa in order to visit other EU member state countries may have to apply for an ETIAS in order to be able to travel to other European countries.

This information is subject to the nationality of the EU resident, as well as the European country of residence and the national visa regulations that will take effect once ETIAS is official."

This level of uncertainty this late in the day is not encouraging.  What it might be saying is that national permanent residence is unrecognised in another EU/Schengen country (i.e. outside the country of residence, in this case Hungary).

Just read this to my wife.  After her snort of derision of anything the EU does, she reminded me that she won't pay a single cent to any country.  She's an EU citizen with a Dutch passport, has no intention of ever applying for a British passport as she has permanent residence in the UK and the right to free travel anywhere in the EU - I think someone screwed this up somewhere.

Cynic wrote:

Just read this to my wife.  After her snort of derision of anything the EU does, she reminded me that she won't pay a single cent to any country.  She's an EU citizen with a Dutch passport, has no intention of ever applying for a British passport as she has permanent residence in the UK and the right to free travel anywhere in the EU - I think someone screwed this up somewhere.

It's easy to snort derision when protected by EU rights and a handy EU passport.   We poor old British people resident in the EU have lost all our treaty rights.  And now we have to seek permission to continue our lives as they were before.  And we are no longer treated equally as nationals of the EU country we live in.

I am getting to the point where I think the UK and EU conspired to violate our civil rights. 

British people who live outside the the UK lose their voting rights after being away longer than 15 years.  That seems an abuse.  We didn't have a say and we were sold out.

I finally got round to sorting my residency card today. If I had known how simple it was I would have done it earlier. I don't have to worry about anything for the next 10 years.

There's a new Entry-Exit System (EES) being introduced mid-2022:

EU Entry-Exit System

This has not been heavily advertised - first I'd heard of it was today. 

Note that the EES includes biometric fingerprint tests, i.e. all non-EU (UK) persons in a car would have to get out and have their prints individually checked at the ports and borders.  EU is selling this as efficiency over the passport stamping but it's likely to cause huge queues and potential for considerable confusion and even anger.   

It's not clear if those with permanent residence cards would be checked as well.   Recent experiences are that the EU border guards are over zealous as regards UK citizens and their stays in the EU.

US operates such a system and it's a pain in the derriere there too.

fluffy2560 wrote:

There's a new Entry-Exit System (EES) being introduced mid-2022:

EU Entry-Exit System

This has not been heavily advertised - first I'd heard of it was today. 

Note that the EES includes biometric fingerprint tests, i.e. all non-EU (UK) persons in a car would have to get out and have their prints individually checked at the ports and borders.  EU is selling this as efficiency over the passport stamping but it's likely to cause huge queues and potential for considerable confusion and even anger.   

It's not clear if those with permanent residence cards would be checked as well.   Recent experiences are that the EU border guards are over zealous as regards UK citizens and their stays in the EU.

US operates such a system and it's a pain in the derriere there too.

The EES Regulation does not apply to EU citizens, TCNs with a residence permit and
family members of EU nationals with a residence card (page 11): https://euagenda.eu/upload/publications … ipment.pdf

SimCityAT wrote:

....
The EES Regulation does not apply to EU citizens, TCNs with a residence permit and
family members of EU nationals with a residence card (page 11): https://euagenda.eu/upload/publications … ipment.pdf

I didn't read it all as my eyes glazed over and I slipped into a short coma.

Anyway, I am not sure how that would work.  They'll have to check documents and relations to EU citizens to know that one is not subject to EES.   So it's going to be the same or worse effect - being stuck in queue.  And then there's ETIAS which we might be subject to or not.  No-one knows.

Reminds me of the contradictions for entering Ireland  from the UK.  One has to show passport to show one is not subject to border controls.  D'oh!

Someone I know (not a British or Irlsh citizen) who was regularly travelling London-Dublin and told me the trick used to be to  get an appropriately coloured Irish or British passport cover which would not draw attention.   No idea if it was BS or true.

Nothing makes sense anymore. 

SimCityAT wrote:

Nothing makes sense anymore. 

My own problem suddenly is that the fancy new residence card could take 21 days to get here.   

I've just heard my very old Dad has problems.  So if I go to see him, I should only take direct flights.

Which is annoying as I've COVID cancelled credits with a couple of airlines but with intermediate stops in EU countries. That's because the Euro border nitwits in other countries don't recognise HU documentation and stamped my passport as a tourist.

Bet Boris and his Johnson didn't see any of this coming.   Case of PPP (P*ss Poor Planning).

We also thought about driving to the UK next June on a major road trip.  God knows how that will work out.

They stamp passports regardless and it's up to the individual country if they do or don't. Its all stupid because your passport is registered every time you go through border control anyway.

SimCityAT wrote:

They stamp passports regardless and it's up to the individual country if they do or don't. Its all stupid because your passport is registered every time you go through border control anyway.

Not sure.  FCO says no stamps for residents.  And passports change.

In DE, they were arguing amongst each other whether they should stamp my passport or not.  In the end, they said to each other, "give him a 30 day stamp" or words to that effect because they couldn't (or didn't want to) recognise the HU registration card.  How they can tell about the 30 days, I don't know unless they entered it on the computer. From my  position, I couldn't see what they were doing.  It was really annoying.

This is the card I have (which is still valid) which they didn't recognise.   They could have easily looked it up on PRADO.

REGISZTRÁCIÓS IGAZOLÁS EGT-állampolgár részére

Only 18 per cent of Britons think Brexit is going well, poll finds

SimCityAT wrote:

Only 18 per cent of Britons think Brexit is going well, poll finds

Doesn't surprise me.   Now the reality and inconvenience is beginning to seriously bite, one has to wonder what it was all about.  It's a perfect storm of morons driving the ship.   

Reminds me of political experiments in the past with direct voting.  If you actually ask the masses their opinion in an unmanaged way, you end up with stupid policies.    Ask a stupid question get a stupid answer.

There's a Simpsons episode where they introduce a bear patrol tax after Homer's trash gets rifled through by a wandering bear.  Gold plating means it ends up with helicopters, SWAT teams and so on.  And then Homer - a main anti-bear in my trash organiser - gets a whopping bill.  And obviously Homer is against that.

Leaving was a dumb thing to do.   Better to be inside the tent p***ing out than outside the tent p***ing in.  Imagine the reforms that could have been applied from inside.   

Maybe it'll fall to bits anyway  - Polexit doesn't seem so far away and HUexit might be around the corner if Orban wins next year.   

One of the first things Mrs F said to me this morning is that she doesn't want HU to leave the EU.  The EU is the only thing keeping an eye on extremist politics here.