Does anyone know a good builder /roofer in Pécs

You will pay a bit more, I guarantee that! 

I do not know builders in Pecs personally, what I do know is that it is very, very difficult to find good local builders. However it is possible to do so, we knew a builder from Sweden (repat), some good jobs some bad, best experiences we had so far is with Russian/Moldovan/Ukraine and Romanian builders. We do not have a problem with prices (budget is fine), you have to be willing to take the risk of let us say gray work (ie no invoices). We try to avoid this and do things by the book, but if working alongside boundaries you can get a good price and more importantly good quality (me and my wife were impressed).

Just find local real estate agents or alike, they will get their commission if you bring profitable business. Alternatively you can send me a personal message and I might give you a contact (depending on arguments and budget to do so).

We lived in Hungary for more then 4 years and indeed finding good gardeners, electricians and builders is a challenge (we managed, but you have to be prepared to pay a reasonable price if you want good quality).

Hello
I know a number of good builders in Pécs.
I do not think one can put such details on this site so please message me with some idea of the scale of the project and I will pass on details of the builders we have used.

cdw057 wrote:

you have to be willing to take the risk of let us say gray work (ie no invoices). We try to avoid this and do things by the book

Recent law changes requires all construction to be reported daily to a central database. Suppose to cut down on gray/black work. Not doing this can result in hefty fines if caught.

And I agree, expats should follow the rules. Leave tax dodge games to the locals.

But, yes, it is really, really hard to find independent, legal, and competent builders, plumbers, electricians, etc in Hungary. They either work for large businesses or left the country to work abroad and make a better income.

Took us 18 months to get roofers. And this was done through our local, Hungarian, general contractor. So doing it yourself may have many issues. Suggest looking for a general contractor in your area rather than trying to organize this yourself.

Down here there are quite a few good builders but they do a lot of work in Austria and Germany as well as locally so you have to fit your projects in to their schedules.

croftg wrote:

Down here there are quite a few good builders but they do a lot of work in Austria and Germany as well as locally so you have to fit your projects in to their schedules.

True, and good point.

We had a difficult roof. Required a lot of leveling on the old rafters. So our first roofers ran out of time before they had to leave for the next job. Glad I had our general contractor. He got more roofers within two weeks (but they were not as good, unfortunately**). But we were living in the house at the time, and not much fun living in house without a roof.

The old story with old house: You never know what you really need to do, how long it will take, or how much it will cost, till you start tearing into things.


**  Side note: I have done construction in the USA, and needed to "watch" them and "correct" them more. Which is an important second side note Be there during any construction or renovation, else a lot of bad work can be hidden by tiles, dry wall, plaster, paint etc. which you will suffer for sooner than later.

We have used three general builders here, all recommended by architects. They have all brought in other trades when needed and all were of a good quality: Three because of availability.
We also use locals from the village for small jobs who originally came from recommendations from the village pub! They do need supervision but that works too.

Just to throw something in here...

We had our roof built from scratch including all the timbers and tiles.  We had to have  construction plans approved at the local government for it as it was a complicated design. 

If you want additional windows or severe modifications which change the look of the place, you'll need to get permission from the building control people at the town hall. 

I notice here people often just replace the tiles but really, you might as well reconstruct the entire thing at the same time. 

BTW, the "architect" did the planning and calculations but neglected to consider the weight of the roof and where it was supported. Our general builder was worried it could collapse due to long spans and heavier tiles.

In the end he decided to be safe he had to insert additional support columns but luckily these are embedded in the walls and cannot be seen and it looks "as designed".

And another thing, don't forget about guttering and drainage at ground level and where the water has to go when it's come off the roof.

croftg wrote:

We also use locals from the village for small jobs who originally came from recommendations from the village pub!

Been there, done that (15 years ago). Worst workers ever. Can not recommend that as an option.

But maybe we have different standards.

And..... my local pub closed down after going through different owners over the years. So maybe the source was the problem......

fluffy2560 wrote:

I notice here people often just replace the tiles but really, you might as well reconstruct the entire thing at the same time.

Waste of money if not needed. We had to replace the battens, but the main rafters were fine. Rough cut logs. Stronger than any modern sawn lumber would be. And I called in a structural engineer to examine everything before we did the re-roofing so I know (money spent on him was money saved on replacing rafters). And I also asked about the new tile weight at the same time (our modern tiles were actually lighter, due to their overlap design so needed fewer tiles per sq. meter).

For details and photos see:

https://stcoemgen.com/2012/10/02/house- … pisode-28/

fluffy2560 wrote:

And another thing, don't forget about guttering and drainage at ground level and where the water has to go when it's come off the roof.

Excellent, excellent advice.

Most of our house wall problems were due to lacking proper water and rain gutters.

Made a special point to get those in (which also took time, getting a competent person to do the work)

https://stcoemgen.com/2014/01/06/house- … milestone/

There is a reason I named this post "A Milestone" -- details provided at the link above why it was and why gutters are so important. But here is a snippet:

It is an unfortunate but simple fact that I find many old Hungarian houses do not have sufficient water diversion. In fact, I would suggest that one of the major failings in Hungarian home ownership of older houses is not understanding the affects water has on the house.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

And another thing, don't forget about guttering and drainage at ground level and where the water has to go when it's come off the roof.

Excellent, excellent advice.

Most of our house wall problems were due to lacking proper water and rain gutters.

Made a special point to get those in (which also took time, getting a competent person to do the work)

https://stcoemgen.com/2014/01/06/house- … milestone/

There is a reason I named this post "A Milestone" -- details provided at the link above why it was and why gutters are so important. But here is a snippet:

It is an unfortunate but simple fact that I find many old Hungarian houses do not have sufficient water diversion. In fact, I would suggest that one of the major failings in Hungarian home ownership of older houses is not understanding the affects water has on the house.

We've been in our renovated house about 2 years now and we've still not got the drains sorted out.   Some of the rain storms here as we all know are torrential so one needs quite fat pipes to get rid of all that and get it away from the house.   I reckon everything has to be 2x to 2.5x the recommended size just to cope with that unusual 50-year event.

There are so many issues with water and damp in Hungary.   Many builders - as I've said before - think water can flow uphill.  Moreover, a lot of older houses don't have damp proof courses so all the plaster will come off and mould will appear inside. 

One way to get around it is to always ensure your house is at least 1.2m off the ground (capillary action limit) and then the damp with stay in the lower levels.  Might mess up your cellar.

Materials also important.  Here, it's all sandstone and basically a sponge. 

One thing I am not sure about here is if we can put ordinary rainwater down the ordinary sewerage drains.  In other countries it was permissible.   Others here have said just put it into the garden away from the house. However as I live on a hill, I'd be directing it into my lower neighbours house and garden which is definitely impolite.   

They already don't like us because our dog has just chewed a hole in their fence.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I notice here people often just replace the tiles but really, you might as well reconstruct the entire thing at the same time.

Waste of money if not needed. We had to replace the battens, but the main rafters were fine. Rough cut logs. Stronger than any modern sawn lumber would be. And I called in a structural engineer to examine everything before we did the re-roofing so I know (money spent on him was money saved on replacing rafters). And I also asked about the new tile weight at the same time (our modern tiles were actually lighter, due to their overlap design so needed fewer tiles per sq. meter).

For details and photos see:

https://stcoemgen.com/2012/10/02/house- … pisode-28/

Sure whatever's good. 

We took the opportunity to replace the 40 year old beams with new pressure treated anti-woodworm etc wood. We noticed in our shed, there could be woodworm.   But even with that,  I am sure the others were OK but I was looking for longevity, minimal maintenance and much more insulation.   

We had other reasons to replace the tiles.  Original ones were light/flat asbestos typical of the time and now they are ceramic tile.  The original tiles we were able to sell.  Asbestos tiles would have been a nightmare in other countries where you'd need specially suited removal people and they'd burn them.  Here, even if dangerous but not cut or dust laden, they'd still just go in the landfill. 

We also had the rafters increased in size and depth so we could use the roof space for additional storage.  It's fully lined and boarded and throughly insulated. While we were at it, we just decided to go the whole hog. So it's fully wired for power (and Internet!), access windows for the chimney cleaning etc.   We also put in all the conduits for doing the cabling for roof based solar panels as well. 

We tried to think ahead!

fluffy2560 wrote:

We also had the rafters increased in size and depth so we could use the roof space for additional storage.  It's fully lined and boarded and throughly insulated!

Rock wool is light. We put in this (spray foam would also work -- but was not an option at the time). And that increased the insulation thickness without needing to add to the beam thickness. in fact, it removed some issues of cold bridging since the beams do not go all the way to the interior. There are special screws/bolts to hold it all up (using thin boards) and the panel over it in place. Very light weight. And finished interior is livable quality.

fluffy2560 wrote:

We've been in our renovated house about 2 years now and we've still not got the drains sorted out.

Took us about 4 years.... Should have taken 4 weeks in a normal country.

fluffy2560 wrote:

One thing I am not sure about here is if we can put ordinary rainwater down the ordinary sewerage drains.  In other countries it was permissible.   Others here have said just put it into the garden away from the house. However as I live on a hill, I'd be directing it into my lower neighbours house and garden which is definitely impolite.

I installed infiltration tunnels (after they finally became available in Hungary -- had to wait 5 years between when I researched and found them online, and when they became locally available).

Such as:

https://www.okomarket.hu/Szikkaszto-ele … lagut-300L

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

We also had the rafters increased in size and depth so we could use the roof space for additional storage.  It's fully lined and boarded and throughly insulated!

Rock wool is light. We put in this (spray foam would also work -- but was not an option at the time). And that increased the insulation thickness without needing to add to the beam thickness. in fact, it removed some issues of cold bridging since the beams do not go all the way to the interior. There are special screws/bolts to hold it all up (using thin boards) and the panel over it in place. Very light weight. And finished interior is livable quality.

Actually the size of the beams was to hold the weight of stuff in the roof space rather than the insulation although that would have helped.   Rock wool would have been good and even necessary around say, a chimney, which surprisingly has to be insulated as well.  Obviously rock wool doesn't burn but it's an absolute sponge if it gets wet - they use it for growing plants without soil (forgot what that's called). 

If I was really going all out "eco" I could have used sheeps wool but not very practical here with stick in the mud builders.  So we've got fibreglass matting.  The roof space here is not liveable, not unless you're one of the seven dwarves.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

We've been in our renovated house about 2 years now and we've still not got the drains sorted out.

Took us about 4 years.... Should have taken 4 weeks in a normal country.

Yup, I'd agree with that for sure.

klsallee wrote:

I installed infiltration tunnels (after they finally became available in Hungary -- had to wait 5 years between when I researched and found them online, and when they became locally available).

Such as:

https://www.okomarket.hu/Szikkaszto-ele … lagut-300L

That's not a bad idea. Good tip.  We've not got much soil underneath so we'd have to bury that in rock I suppose.   But it's spongy so I guess if it was down 1m, water will just disappear.

Do you have to wrap it up with geotextile to stop them getting blocked?  Or is that not a problem with that design?

While we're here, have you ever had trouble with people and their wood burning stoves. We've noticed in the past accumulations of what we think is ash which lands on our roof, then washes down into the drains.   Wondering how to filter all that out?

fluffy2560 wrote:

Obviously rock wool doesn't burn but it's an absolute sponge if it gets wet -

Rockwool is water repellent, so avoids getting wet :

https://www.rockwoolgroup.com/why-stone … ncy-video/

It is fiberglass that absorbs water, has almost no water repellent features, and needs to be kept dry at all times. That is a major cause of rot in wood house walls, crawl spaces and ceilings in the USA -- sealed spaces with fiberglass insulation that gets wet from even home humidity is a bad thing (and sealed houses that can not breath make that worse).

http://www.basementsystems.ca/crawl-spa … ation.html

There is even special tape in the US to seal joints around the house inner vapor barrier to keep moisture from the fiberglass insulation layer.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Obviously rock wool doesn't burn but it's an absolute sponge if it gets wet -

Rockwool is water repellent, so avoids getting wet :

https://www.rockwoolgroup.com/why-stone … ncy-video/

It is fiberglass that absorbs water, has almost no water repellent features, and needs to be kept dry at all times. That is a major cause of rot in wood house walls, crawl spaces and ceilings in the USA -- sealed spaces with fiberglass insulation that gets wet from even home humidity is a bad thing (and sealed houses that can not breath make that worse).

http://www.basementsystems.ca/crawl-spa … ation.html

There is even special tape in the US to seal joints around the house inner vapor barrier to keep moisture from the fiberglass insulation layer.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … arrier.JPG

Yes, fibreglass absorbs but rockwool does also.  It's OK if you render it properly but it's pretty absorbent if you don't. I concede there are different types but let's talk averages.  That's why they use it for hydroponics (I forgot the word earlier). 

If you put a lump of rock wool outside and leave it in the rain, it'll swell up and retain water but from what I've seen, fibreglass will just become sodden and won't swell up for air spaces.  Highly desirable to have air spaces for hydroponics but I digress.

There's a house near me which they insulated with rockwool but they didn't finish the render.  It's all swollen up near the surface and is disintegrating due to being soaked.  I have no idea why they didn't render it.  I insulated and plastered my own chimney using rockwool. Not very difficult to do. 

Most roof spaces here are "open" to allow circulation of air but we don't like that idea so we have air vents like this and they work just fine:



But those are other points for the OP's roofer in Pecs - make sure there are enough air vents.   From the bathrooms, there should be forced vents either to outside -  i.e. a fan come on when the light is on - and that vents external to the roof space.   But failing that there's also no excuse not to open the window a couple of times a week or even once a day for a short period.

fluffy2560 wrote:

BTW, the "architect" did the planning and calculations but neglected to consider the weight of the roof and where it was supported. Our general builder was worried it could collapse due to long spans and heavier tiles.

In the end he decided to be safe he had to insert additional support columns but luckily these are embedded in the walls and cannot be seen and it looks "as designed".

He did that free of charge, right? That's a bit odd, usually it's the builders who cut corners to keep the costs down, an architect won't risk losing his right to practice...

atomheart wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

BTW, the "architect" did the planning and calculations but neglected to consider the weight of the roof and where it was supported. Our general builder was worried it could collapse due to long spans and heavier tiles.

In the end he decided to be safe he had to insert additional support columns but luckily these are embedded in the walls and cannot be seen and it looks "as designed".

He did that free of charge, right? That's a bit odd, usually it's the builders who cut corners to keep the costs down, an architect won't risk losing his right to practice...

I used the term architect loosely (hence the quotes). 

A lot of these people are actually professional building engineers and not architects.   

We had the designer - a building engineer - and the general builder was also a building engineer. In fact, they all knew each other. 

Yes, the general builder (he had his own gang of people led by a foreman) did all that stuff and he also redesigned the stairs  putting the landings in different positions as the original designer messed it up.  Messed up other stuff too but it's a long story.

fluffy2560 wrote:

If you put a lump of rock wool outside and leave it in the rain, it'll swell up and retain water but from what I've seen, fibreglass will just become sodden and won't swell up for air spaces.

Irrelevant. Because you are using the wrong metric.

If you have any insulation exposed to a condition as described, your house is built wrong.

Within the design parameters of a normal house, such over wet conditions should never happen. And it is inappropriate to measure any product based on conditions they should not be regularly exposed. If they do, that is your problem and bad design, not the problem of the product selected.

atomheart wrote:

an architect won't risk losing his right to practice...

And, an architect uses physics and math to know what to do properly, at the lowest cost, to get the job done.

An on site foreman just uses.... Well often what "works" and what the client wants. This may mean over building to make it stable (i.e. costs more, but will be just as stable).

Science, math, physics (and gravity) will always win in the end (especially in cost/benefit). But I am assuming the architect is competent (not all are -- and one may need to list to the general contractor instead -- there is a balance here).

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

If you put a lump of rock wool outside and leave it in the rain, it'll swell up and retain water but from what I've seen, fibreglass will just become sodden and won't swell up for air spaces.

Irrelevant. Because you are using the wrong metric.

If you have any insulation exposed to a condition as described, your house is built wrong.

Within the design parameters of a normal house, such over wet conditions should never happen. And it is inappropriate to measure any product based on conditions they should not be regularly exposed. If they do, that is your problem and bad design, not the problem of the product selected.

Oh, going to be one of those discussions then!  Ok, I'll play for a bit.

Et porquoi the wrong metric?

I was only discussing about your claim for rockwool not to be absorbent but then you dodged for not explaining the use in hydroponics.   Willing to rap about it to clear up the differences.

And I mentioned a house nearby (NOT my house) where they had not rendered their rockwool for unknown reasons and discussed the fact that it looks like it's falling off due to swelling up and the surface breaking down.  I cannot say the level of liquid penetration to the house bricks below as I can only observe from a distance. 

I've got some compressed rockwool insulation offcuts in my shed I think, I'll see if I can find it, cut it to say a 10cm cube and then put it in a bowl with a litre of water and see how much bigger it gets.  I might have some fibre glass somewhere too.   If none of this works, I'll eat some humble pie.

My house is built just fine....er...if you ignore the silly mistakes.  But those mistakes at least don't include exposed insulation.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I've got some compressed rockwool insulation offcuts in my shed I think, I'll see if I can find it, cut it to say a 10cm cube and then put it in a bowl with a litre of water and see how much bigger it gets.  I might have some fibre glass somewhere too.   If none of this works, I'll eat some humble pie.

Sighs....

Irrelevant. Because no rockwool or fiberglass in a house will be placed into a bowl of water.

What matters is incidental water from, say, a roof leak, or air moisture from inside the house.  And its ability to continue to insulate, or not (how much an insulation expands when wet may not be linear to its insulation properties). That is, what any product is expected to experience during its installed life span and how it is affected by those conditions is all that matter. Excessively extreme conditions (like a bowl of water) are not relevant, because, as I said, if you have such extreme conditions your house was build wrong to start with.

There is no need for you to experiment, there are plenty of those already done by many agencies, manufacturers, etc. To show what each product can tolerate.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I've got some compressed rockwool insulation offcuts in my shed I think, I'll see if I can find it, cut it to say a 10cm cube and then put it in a bowl with a litre of water and see how much bigger it gets.  I might have some fibre glass somewhere too.   If none of this works, I'll eat some humble pie.

Sighs....

Irrelevant. Because no rockwool or fiberglass in a house will be placed into a bowl of water.

What matters is incidental water from, say, a roof leak, or air moisture from inside the house.  And its ability to continue to insulate, or not (how much an insulation expands when wet may not be linear to its insulation properties). That is, what any product is expected to experience during its installed life span and how it is affected by those conditions is all that matter. Excessively extreme conditions (like a bowl of water) are not relevant, because, as I said, if you have such extreme conditions your house was build wrong to start with.

There is no need for you to experiment, there are plenty of those already done by many agencies, manufacturers, etc. To show what each product can tolerate.

I don't know why the folks locally haven't rendered that particular wall but as it's outside, internal action is not so interesting. Besides, water is water.
 
I think standing in a flat bowl of water is perfectly fine as a test.  That's equivalent to horizontal rain storms over say, some days, months or years possibly.   

If you stand the cube up in a dish and fill it with say 1cm, you could see how quickly it sucks up the aforementioned liquid by timing it.   There would have to be some absorbed probably because of capillary action. 

I read that the air space is 20% in rockwool. Dunno about fibreglass.