Expat interest in politics in Hungary

SimCityAT wrote:

My dog currently has a foot injury, and has to wear a cone to keep him from aggravating the situation. So I can personally tell you... Cones : They do work. Very well.

Moved from Protests in Hungary

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Not my thing to protest, so far there are not many protests that interest me.
Maybe if they held one about unfair banking systems, chemtrail spraying or even 5 G, that may get my interest but probably not.

Here is a larger question: Why would anyone prefer to protest about conspiracy theories (often not fact based) over real world factual issues like a decline or lack in personal rights and freedoms and inclusive democracy, police brutality, racism, etc.?

https://index.hu/english/2020/07/24/edi … x_resigns/

atomheart wrote:

https://index.hu/english/2020/07/24/editorial_board_of_index_resigns/

Yes, this was coming some days ago.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53531948

and

https://www.euronews.com/2020/07/24/ind … tor-sacked

One of my neighbours lost their job in the 2016 loss of Népszabadság.  I hope some freedom loving entrepreneur brings Index back to life from abroad where it cannot be interfered with by OV.   Their photo journalism was excellent and it will be missed.

YouTube documentary on Orban etc - in German with subtitles.

GuestPoster279 wrote:

Moved from Protests in Hungary

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Not my thing to protest, so far there are not many protests that interest me.
Maybe if they held one about unfair banking systems, chemtrail spraying or even 5 G, that may get my interest but probably not.

Here is a larger question: Why would anyone prefer to protest about conspiracy theories (often not fact based) over real world factual issues like a decline or lack in personal rights and freedoms and inclusive democracy, police brutality, racism, etc.?

Just look at the tick-tok-toe lines in the skies. Normal clouds don't do that pattern.
My cousin used to go every year for years to protest in from of the White House in DC with AIM. Russel Means was one of his frineds.
Little good all those protests for Native rights did in the long run.Russel spent many years behind bars.
His sister, my cousin and her children used to go up to Canada to the Mohawk res. for Pow Wows. They would go in a bus with a group from Conn. The bus had all sorts of messages written on it ect. A target for the powers that be. At the Canadian boarder the bus was told to pull to the side. Everyone had to leave the bus while it was searched and people had body searches.My cousin got into it with a boarder agent because he was frisking her 15 year old son and she didn't like it one bit.Almost came to blows over it( Don't mess with a native mother unless you have a death wish).After a few hours and them all being in handcuffs they were set loose and no one was even issued a fine for anything.
Have to be ready for anything when you try to buck the system.
Like I said, I'm not interested in protesting myself for a restuarnat to reopen. Need a real motovation to put my life and safety at risk by hitting the streets.
I know my grandfather who was forced as a US citizen to join the Czars Army as a teenager also was forced to beat down protesters in the sts. with clubs and swords. Don't think he ever enjoyed it but his back literally was up against the wall.
If a topic is important enough for me to risk my life for then yes, I'll be hitting the streets.
I think though at my age I really will leave it to the younger people to do something for themselves.
Too old now to care about the future all that much, this life isn't really all there is.
I know it is public knowledge that govs. are practing clud seeding, geoengineering and God know's what else is going on so how is that a conspiracy theory when they admit it is being done?
Whatever they are doing in the skies it isn't healthy to breath it in.
We washed our car last week and it already has sticky clue like junk all over the roof, no trees blooming yet either.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

.......
Just look at the tick-tok-toe lines in the skies. Normal clouds don't do that pattern.
....
I know it is public knowledge that govs. are practing clud seeding, geoengineering and God know's what else is going on so how is that a conspiracy theory when they admit it is being done?
Whatever they are doing in the skies it isn't healthy to breath it in.
We washed our car last week and it already has sticky clue like junk all over the roof, no trees blooming yet either.

I don't have any belief in any conspiracy about chem trails etc.  It's just condensation.   They don't need to cloud seeding here - it's raining enough already.  I'm walking in the forest a lot and trees there are in full flow, flowers are out and fragrant and my cherry tree is covered in white flowers.  Other trees are blooming  out here in the burbs.

But on the other hand, I'm often looking at the planes flying over Budapest using FlightRadar24.   

I've noticed an uptick in USAF flights to the area. Usually they fly from the Munich area down towards the Romanian border area and then fly around in circles there just West of Békéscsaba, then fly back towards Munich.  Sometimes they actually fly over my house at low level, land at Budapest (maybe re-fuelling), then go away again.  It must be a training activity.

Not to be alarmist but it might be something to do with Putin's ambitions in Eastern Ukraine - training for troop movements in NATO. After all, Putin has been massing troops on the border of the disputed Donbas area.  That's looking like it could be a prelude to invasion.   That's going to put NATO and the EU on the spot.  Western countries have been piling weaponry into Ukraine.  But Putin is probably going to do what he usually does - make everyone Russian, then invade in order to "protect ethnic Russians" and act as peacekeepers.  Then essentially it's an occupying force.   I doubt Biden is going to step in on Russia and the EU is gutless when it comes to any confrontation with these kinds of regime.

It's more politics for here and it's going to be more EU issues. Hungary has been maintaining overly positive and cosy relations with Russia.  But the other members of the EU grouping for Poland, Italy and right wing France parties in the EU parliament have not been quite so friendly with Russia.   

So this could be more opportunity for the usual O1G duplicity in the EU front.   I doubt O1G is even naive enough to belief that O1G pro-Russian rhetoric in the EU is going to save Hungary from any Putin backstabbing.  Same kind of expendable convenience as Lukashenko in Belarus.  Convenient for the moment.

My brother is a US airline mechanic of over 35 years of experience. He thinks I'm a nut case with the chemtrails but I stand by my belief.
He is also a gun toadding NRA member who loves HIlary Clinton, so not sure what's up with him.
All I know is when the sky is grey and overcast, we do not feel so great.
I hardly remember what a cloud looks like without it appearing as a fog more then a fluffy mass of white in the sky.
I am very serious that perhaps they give some credit to the I.Q. of Hungarians and do not do this here in Hungary but in Vegas, you can play tic-tock-toe with the cloud formations in the sky. It is very horrid there.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

My brother is a US airline mechanic of over 35 years of experience. He thinks I'm a nut case with the chemtrails but I stand by my belief.
He is also a gun toadding NRA member who loves HIlary Clinton, so not sure what's up with him.
All I know is when the sky is grey and overcast, we do not feel so great.
I hardly remember what a cloud looks like without it appearing as a fog more then a fluffy mass of white in the sky.
I am very serious that perhaps they give some credit to the I.Q. of Hungarians and do not do this here in Hungary but in Vegas, you can play tic-tock-toe with the cloud formations in the sky. It is very horrid there.

Why would anyone want to spray chemicals on the population from aeroplanes?   That's too random. There are far easier ways of getting people dosed with whatever it is.  Why not put it in the water?  Or in food?  Or invent a pandemic and inject everyone?   

Maybe they are trying to stop us waking up in The Matrix.  I can imagine people going a bit nuts in a pandemic.  Like cabin fever.

Mrs Fluffy's uncle is going bonkers about the vaccination and thinks it's a plot but is unable to say by whom or for what purpose nor provide any evidence to back up his claims. 

More interestingly, I've been having a discussion with someone I work with in the US about cults and if this is a solid defence to loopy behaviour on the grounds of insanity or competence to stand trail for crimes committed while a member of a cult.  An obvious one is the Manson family or Jim Jones but there are plenty of other ones too which are heavily documented.   Defence at trial of being brainwashed by the cult leaders is a real hill to climb. It seems it was never very successful.   We started out on the path about the USAF Sargent who killed a couple of cops while ranting about the Boogaloo Bois.  We also considered if Trump was a cult.  We never really came to a conclusion before we moved onto more important matters - what new TV shows and movies were worth watching.

One outcome was that it's best to stick to reliable mainstream professionally run journalism outlets and not read about conspiracy theories.

Orban's not going the Euro Germany-Hungary football in Munich tonight.   

I am wondering if cancelled his visit because he'd get some serious booing.

Hungary PM 'scraps Euros visit' amid German LGBT row with Uefa

Prediction: Germany 3 Hungary 1

I'd like to say that Hungary is becoming a pariah, but I do not see consequences yet. Much like Poland. The amount of Euro money lost is trivial. But more and more countries are focusing on Orban and Hungary as a persona / country non-grata.

BTW - for anyone not keeping up with this law, uner the propaganda context of "protecting children", this legislation bans "anything gay or tolerant of gays" or sets up large financial penalties. Under the legislation, songs like "I will survivie", "It's raining men", and "Born this way" can be cited as propaganda against children. Movies like Harry Potter can be banned because Dumbledore is gay. Last year's rainbow "love is love" marketing campaign was strongly opposed by Fidesz and taken down under political pressure. Now it's a criminal offense if such advertising is shown. The most insulting thing is that it lumps pedophilia in with homosexuality, a walk back of 50  years and absolute nonsense. It's insulting, it's hurtful.

Orban is pushing this "have 6 Catholic kids" agenda, "saving" Hungarians from evidentally rampant pedophilia in the gay community (/s), but most of the youth I speak with have no desire to stay in Hungary. Most who can, leave. And those are the skilled workers of course. I know I am looking now to Portugal as a retirement destination -- affordable, modern, friendly. Does anyone have experience there? Advice and conversations would be very appreciated.

Germans made a surprisingly poor showing, 2-2 with some last minute action saving Germany.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/23/foot … index.html

Vicces1 wrote:

I'd like to say that Hungary is becoming a pariah, but I do not see consequences yet. Much like Poland. The amount of Euro money lost is trivial. But more and more countries are focusing on Orban and Hungary as a persona / country non-grata.

BTW - for anyone not keeping up with this law, uner the propaganda context of "protecting children", this legislation bans "anything gay or tolerant of gays" or sets up large financial penalties. Under the legislation, songs like "I will survivie", "It's raining men", and "Born this way" can be cited as propaganda against children. Movies like Harry Potter can be banned because Dumbledore is gay. Last year's rainbow "love is love" marketing campaign was strongly opposed by Fidesz and taken down under political pressure. Now it's a criminal offense if such advertising is shown. The most insulting thing is that it lumps pedophilia in with homosexuality, a walk back of 50  years and absolute nonsense. It's insulting, it's hurtful.

Orban is pushing this "have 6 Catholic kids" agenda, "saving" Hungarians from evidentally rampant pedophilia in the gay community (/s), but most of the youth I speak with have no desire to stay in Hungary. Most who can, leave. And those are the skilled workers of course. I know I am looking now to Portugal as a retirement destination -- affordable, modern, friendly. Does anyone have experience there? Advice and conversations would be very appreciated.

Oh I hear you!

I'm afraid the LGBT community is the latest victim of O1G's long term political ambitions.   He always needs an enemy to demonise.  We've had judges, refugees, Soros and now it's LGBT dressed up in some religious and Catholic family nonsense.  Some people here must be dumber than a box of rocks to believe this ongoing BS. 

It's kind of interesting that Italy told the Vatican to mind their own business the other day.    I think the Pope should be noticing the world is going in another direction and get with the programme. Otherwise they'll become even more irrelevant than they are now.

As for the EU saying its going to do anything, I don't believe  it.   They are totally useless and as useful as a one legged person in a backside kicking contest.   I personally think they should look at how to kick Hungary and Poland out of the EU.  In any case, it's going to take years to make good on the O1G damage to society and drag Hungary into the next century.   Perhaps the ECHR might take on some cases which could help stop Hungary going back to the dark ages.   

But longer term, moving out of Hungary is starting to look more attractive.   I've been to Portugal and it's definitely Euro-normal.   It's definitely quiet, modern and easy.  My only concern is that it's all a bit small scale but that might be good.  We're thinking of the Canary Islands or perhaps Spain.  Our kids seem quite keen to leave once education is finished.  I don't think they want to stay here with all its limitations.   

Vicces1 wrote:

Germans made a surprisingly poor showing, 2-2 with some last minute action saving Germany.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/23/foot … index.html

I was wondering in which universe I had made that prediction Germany would squash Hungary.  But it was obvious Hungary were far more in the game than Germany.  It was almost like they were timid to take on the Hungarian defence.  Moreover, there was never anyone there to lob the ball to.   So the Germans had possession but nowhere to send it.  Massive gap in the German attackers in the goal area.   

My problem is political. If Hungary had won, the O1G would have been crowing about it for ages as justification for the massive stadium/football investments.  As it is, there's a lot of rationalisation going on this morning about how well Hungary did.  Well not well enough Viktor!

Last week while out walking we noticed several police cars and a police van parked on the side of the road.
There were cones set up too devert traffic.
About 4 or 5 cars had been pulled over and the police were standing on the sidewalk with a small group of men and women perhaps 8 people in all.
Looked like normal everyday people who had been pulled over .
Could of been because they all had a paper banner in their back windows and Hungarian flags sticking out of the windows.
The banner said in Hungarian,"New Beginings".
Looked like a new poltical party  or an anti-gov. org. was hitting the streets.
Not sure what happened , we walked by and then just turned back and left them in peace. Didn't notice anyone being arrested.
Wonder how often people have these small protests and it is never on the media?

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Last week while out walking we noticed several police cars and a police van parked on the side of the road.
There were cones set up too devert traffic.
About 4 or 5 cars had been pulled over and the police were standing on the sidewalk with a small group of men and women perhaps 8 people in all.
Looked like normal everyday people who had been pulled over .
Could of been because they all had a paper banner in their back windows and Hungarian flags sticking out of the windows.
The banner said in Hungarian,"New Beginings".
Looked like a new poltical party  or an anti-gov. org. was hitting the streets.
Not sure what happened , we walked by and then just turned back and left them in peace. Didn't notice anyone being arrested.
Wonder how often people have these small protests and it is never on the media?

Might have been football supporters.  When we went to the Puskas stadium to pick up No. 1 Fluffyette (who was there for the football with my BIL) there was a large police presence.  They all had riot gear on.   The crowd was well behaved and just going home.  Driving around we only saw perhaps 2 cars with flags out.  I was a bit surprised as the visible supporters paraphernalia is so much more intense in other countries.

There will be more football people around as there should be more games but Hungary itself is out of the main competition.

Next game in Hungary is Netherlands vs Czech Republic on 27 June (Sunday) @ 18h.

Latest from O1G

Hungary's Viktor Orban will hold referendum on anti-LGBT law

I'm actually thinking this is a proxy for an referendum to leave the EU.  Or O1G to be out.   

Way I see it is if voters agree with the law, it's incompatible with the EU norms and potentially EU laws and if they disagree then O1G is incompatible with the voters.   

Could be by design.

Going to be interesting to see how this one plays out.

Interesting, so if the referendum passes, O1G can say he is enacting the will of the people over Brusselles, and try to win the masses. He is the hero of the Hungarians in his own mind. Of course, the only media that most Hungarians have access to is the O1G franchises, meaning they are deluded and sheepish and will be fed the lies that caused this abomination to be passed in the 1st place..
If the referendum doesn't pass, he saves face by eliminating the law, standing up for the rights of Hungarian citizens, and continues his long history of abject corruption, by removing the "Rule of Law" objections from the EU and continuing to receive huge amounts of money from Western Euro coffers.
A Win-Win for him.

I am thinking of the question of whether O1G wants to stay in the EU and I have to say he does. I think his giving into the referendum is a result of at least some EU pressure and the denial of EU funds.
O1G is like tRump -- in it for himself, and in it for money, and feeding his ego. It's difficult to earn a lot of international respect when you are short and fat with horrible political policies -- just ask Kim Jung Un. :-)
He has courted Russia, and been rebuffed.
He has courted China, with little success for favorable terms.
He tried kissing tRump's butt, but it got him nowhere.
He has no where to go but to remain with the EU to continue his formula for anti-prosecution and free rein to rob the populace blind.

What about the Phoenix spyware scandal, that's getting a lot of discussion going amongst my friends. What are your thoughts there?

Vicces1 wrote:

Interesting, so if the referendum passes, O1G can say he is enacting the will of the people over Brusselles, and try to win the masses. He is the hero of the Hungarians in his own mind. Of course, the only media that most Hungarians have access to is the O1G franchises, meaning they are deluded and sheepish and will be fed the lies that caused this abomination to be passed in the 1st place..
If the referendum doesn't pass, he saves face by eliminating the law, standing up for the rights of Hungarian citizens, and continues his long history of abject corruption, by removing the "Rule of Law" objections from the EU and continuing to receive huge amounts of money from Western Euro coffers.
A Win-Win for him.

Nice scenario.  But I was wondering was it by design or opportunity?  How clever is O1G?

The LGBT community was looking like the election target they were going to demonise but it seems to have taken on another and wider life they might not have expected.

Now at risk is the EU's 7.2 Billion EUR funds O1G was expecting to flow in for dishing out amongst his friends but now the  EU is threatening Hungary to a greater degree than we've ever seen before.

Some of the rhetoric is exactly the same as that being used in Poland and the recent case there that EU law cannot be supreme over the constitution.   If their supreme court rules that Polish law is superior, then Poland is instantly out the EU.

So perhaps this is the next step here - the constitution becomes incompatible with EU law or norms.  So what better way to test the water for HUexit to take a relatively throw away law and see if the proles will roll over his way after being bombarded by O1G's media friends (as you said). I couldn't see anyone voting for HUexit.  People would have to be so dumb but here, the intelligence of the voters ishould not be over-estimated.

I never thought the LGBT issue would have such significance in Hungary. I always thought corruption would pull down O1G.  If he isn't brought down, HUexit starts to take place, this country will be another Belarus.

Vicces1 wrote:

I am thinking of the question of whether O1G wants to stay in the EU and I have to say he does. I think his giving into the referendum is a result of at least some EU pressure and the denial of EU funds.
O1G is like tRump -- in it for himself, and in it for money, and feeding his ego. It's difficult to earn a lot of international respect when you are short and fat with horrible political policies -- just ask Kim Jung Un. :-)
He has courted Russia, and been rebuffed.
He has courted China, with little success for favorable terms.
He tried kissing tRump's butt, but it got him nowhere.
He has no where to go but to remain with the EU to continue his formula for anti-prosecution and free rein to rob the populace blind.

What about the Phoenix spyware scandal, that's getting a lot of discussion going amongst my friends. What are your thoughts there?

Haha, Kim Jong Un is one O1G's closest friends, I'm sure.    We can add ugly and gnome like to the the list of characteristics.

Yes, the spyware scandal is super interesting but somewhat strangely,  I'm not surprised at all about it.   In fact, I'd be surprised if they weren't bugging potential "troublemakers".  This kind of thing is the autocrat's instinct - remember Romania and Ceaușescu.  25% of the population were informants but the same thing can be done more directly.   

But it's not just Hungary, it's all over the place. Even Macron was spied on apparently.  Friend of mine said that Belarus uses that software extensively to monitor enemies of the regime.  They never mentioned that in the news reports.

BTW, there's a rumour going around that the cops will be using facial recognition to capture persons who appear to support the LGBT community during Pride.   This is really insidious stuff it's true. I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.  Makes you wonder what would happen to that data in forming up the arguments pre-referendum.

As for international relations, why would the US or China give a damn about Hungary?  They have bigger fish to fry.  The only one who might care is Putin but he's got other things to think about like Ukraine, Belarus and Crimea.  Hungary's just a blip on the back burner.

If you didn't hear, Hungary will hold a referendum on the LGBT law. I didn't think Fidesz could sink any lower, but here are the political propaganda questions in the referendum (below).  There is no way to answer them other than supporting Fidesz.
War Games: Strange game. The only way to win is not to play.

1. Do you support the holding of sexual orientation classes for minor children in public education without parental consent?

2. Do you support the promotion of gender reassignment treatments for minor children?

3. Do you support the availability of non-neoplastic treatments for minors?

4. Do you support the unrestricted presentation of sexual media content to minors that affects their development?

5. Do you support the display of gender-sensitive media content? Orbán read the questions, asking everyone to say no to the above.

*This is disgusting and repugnant to me. The conflating of adult sexual preference and pedophila is not only wrong and irrational, it is absolutely against the foundations of human values and dignity as expresseed in the EU Charter. Hu may indeed be on its way out of the EU...

In another room, somewhere in the Fidesz universe, a reporter asks about Fidesz's support for Pride (June was Pride month).

Fidesz spokesperson replies they would not be in the Pride Parade because there are no gays in Fidesz, it is incompatible with our political philosophy.
<general laughter from the audience>
Reporter: You don't have to be gay to be in the parade. It is a way of showing support for all people. 
Fidesz: We don't do that.

https://444.hu/2021/07/22/kitort-a-neve … ek-melegek

Vicces1 wrote:

If you didn't hear, Hungary will hold a referendum on the LGBT law.

Yes, it was in my post #55

Vicces1 wrote:

I didn't think Fidesz could sink any lower, but here are the political propaganda questions in the referendum (below).  There is no way to answer them other than supporting Fidesz.
War Games: Strange game. The only way to win is not to play.

1. Do you support the holding of sexual orientation classes for minor children in public education without parental consent?

2. Do you support the promotion of gender reassignment treatments for minor children?

3. Do you support the availability of non-neoplastic treatments for minors?

4. Do you support the unrestricted presentation of sexual media content to minors that affects their development?

5. Do you support the display of gender-sensitive media content?

Orbán read the questions, asking everyone to say no to the above.

*This is disgusting and repugnant to me. The conflating of adult sexual preference and pedophila is not only wrong and irrational, it is absolutely against the foundations of human values and dignity as expressed in the EU Charter. Hu may indeed be on its way out of the EU...

As one might expect and as you say, they are loading the questions their way so there's no consultation on what the questions actually mean. Orban is judge and jury.  And if it didn't go his way, would we even know?

Why not ask a question like:  "Do you support the rights of people to choose who they love?"  or "Do you support a person's rights to self determination?" or "Do you support a child's rights to be educated in an open,  fair, unbiased and non-judgemental manner?". 

There's an interview on the BBC with the HU FM about this referendum.  Nothing special, just the usual BS.   His argument is that it's about democracy but of course here, there's no fully effective opposition. Marginalising the rights of one section of the population at the expense of another is  just another chapter in the autocrat's playbook.

The timing is rather expected.  Looks like a skirmish prior to the election warming up.   I cannot see this being expedited on the EU side anytime soon.  Certainly not before the election.

Vicces1 wrote:

In another room, somewhere in the Fidesz universe, a reporter asks about Fidesz's support for Pride (June was Pride month).

Fidesz spokesperson replies they would not be in the Pride Parade because there are no gays in Fidesz, it is incompatible with our political philosophy.
<general laughter="" from="" the="" audience="">
Reporter: You don't have to be gay to be in the parade. It is a way of showing support for all people. 
Fidesz: We don't do that.

https://444.hu/2021/07/22/kitort-a-neve … ek-melegek

Ok, I didn't know it was June.  I'm obviously out of date on Pride events.  They might be doing facial recognition monitoring on the march on Saturday 24th.

Anyway, what about that Brussels guy who tried to escape down the drainpipe? I found it really rather amusing that the participants thought the cops raiding the party were dressed up as part of the entertainment.  Like a comedy.  We never heard more about that guy and what he's saying about the law.  Be interesting to hear if he's for the law or not.  Put him and his Fidesz mates on the spot.</general>

fluffy2560 wrote:

Anyway, what about that Brussels guy who tried to escape down the drainpipe? I found it really rather amusing that the participants thought the cops raiding the party were dressed up as part of the entertainment.  Like a comedy.  We never heard more about that guy and what he's saying about the law.  Be interesting to hear if he's for the law or not.  Put him and his Fidesz mates on the spot.</general>

Szajjer?  He's in the dustbin.
Honestly haven't heard a thing about him since.

Did you hear of these 2 recent events:
1. EU denies releasing Recovery funds to Hungary amid doubts in the auditing and justice system independence.
2. The EEC refuses Hungary funds (Norway, Iceland, Leichtenstein, Switzerland) amid concerns over rule of law and corruption. Hungary (O1G) says Norway owes Hungary (us)...

https://www.politico.eu/article/hungary … intensify/https://hungarytoday.hu/eea-norway-gran … n-okotars/https://www.euronews.com/2021/07/23/nor … s-for-ngos

Vicces1 wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Anyway, what about that Brussels guy who tried to escape down the drainpipe? I found it really rather amusing that the participants thought the cops raiding the party were dressed up as part of the entertainment.  Like a comedy.  We never heard more about that guy and what he's saying about the law.  Be interesting to hear if he's for the law or not.  Put him and his Fidesz mates on the spot.</general>

Vicces1 wrote:

Szajjer?  He's in the dustbin.
Honestly haven't heard a thing about him since.

Yes, that guy.   They should get him on the phone for comments.   

Vicces1 wrote:

Did you hear of these 2 recent events:
1. EU denies releasing Recovery funds to Hungary amid doubts in the auditing and justice system independence.
2. The EEC refuses Hungary funds (Norway, Iceland, Leichtenstein, Switzerland) amid concerns over rule of law and corruption. Hungary (O1G) says Norway owes Hungary (us)...

https://www.politico.eu/article/hungary … intensify/https://hungarytoday.hu/eea-norway-gran … n-okotars/https://www.euronews.com/2021/07/23/nor … s-for-ngos

I did hear about Norway blocking funds to LGBT-free areas in Poland but I didn't know it had finally reached Hungary. 

Makes you wonder what logic the HU politicians have in their heads when they say Norway is in the EU common market and they owe us money.  Works both ways - Hungary is also able to sell into Norway.   And besides grants are voluntary.

Looks to me like O1G beginning to be trapped in a nightmare of his own making.   

Euronews published this today - What's it like to be LGBT in Hungary amid Orban's rights crackdown?

I'll be at the Pride March today to show my support.

From my point of view, this is what it is currently like being gay in Hungary:
1. Constantly being looked at as a pedophile by a certain percentage of the population
2. Knowing the law is oppressive and you have few rights in this matter
3. Knowing that for the vast majority of civil issues, you cannot go to the police, they will not help you -- from simple disputes to assaults, they will laugh at you
4. In most businesses, if you come out, you will be laid off or severely hamper your career
5. The govt has slowly been forcing gay and gay-friendly establishments to close. When I was here in the early 2000's, there were more than a dozen such cafes, bars, and clubs. Drag shows were a fun event for all to see. Now there are only 2 gay friendly places that I know of. The culture is thrown underground and into apps.

And I cannot describe what the situation must be like for the youth. Being targeted by powerful societal groups, being seen as the scapegoat for child mutilation, having to live with the constant fear of being found out for who you are... It's often difficult enough in accepting societies, but nowadays...here.... It really is a sad, pathetic, enraging, disgusting, cruel, inhumane situation one usually only finds with despots, morally bankrupt regimes (the irony of using morals here...). Hungary is currently incompatible with the EU's values, charter, and foundations.

Vicces1 wrote:

I'll be at the Pride March today to show my support.

From my point of view, this is what it is currently like being gay in Hungary:
1. Constantly being looked at as a pedophile by a certain percentage of the population
2. Knowing the law is oppressive and you have few rights in this matter
3. Knowing that for the vast majority of civil issues, you cannot go to the police, they will not help you -- from simple disputes to assaults, they will laugh at you
4. In most businesses, if you come out, you will be laid off or severely hamper your career
5. The govt has slowly been forcing gay and gay-friendly establishments to close. When I was here in the early 2000's, there were more than a dozen such cafes, bars, and clubs. Drag shows were a fun event for all to see. Now there are only 2 gay friendly places that I know of. The culture is thrown underground and into apps.

And I cannot describe what the situation must be like for the youth. Being targeted by powerful societal groups, being seen as the scapegoat for child mutilation, having to live with the constant fear of being found out for who you are... It's often difficult enough in accepting societies, but nowadays...here.... It really is a sad, pathetic, enraging, disgusting, cruel, inhumane situation one usually only finds with despots, morally bankrupt regimes (the irony of using morals here...). Hungary is currently incompatible with the EU's values, charter, and foundations.

That's terrible.

It's a nasty game the government is playing and they are going against the flow.  Religious bigots are also helping the government with its agenda - another set of interfering patsies for O1G's agenda.   Other governments and actors have become more enlightened and the sky hasn't fallen in.

One of my kids wants to go and I'm thinking I need to go and be a minder.  She's at an age where being indignant at social inequality is strongly felt and that's good.  Shows engagement.   I asked her if I should come and she was annoyed and that wasn't a good idea.  Mrs F is also forbidden from going with her.   

But I want also want to protest but I'm a foreigner and if I got arrested or facial recognised and tracked down, I could end up being  in trouble and end up being deported.  My kid is Hungarian so nothing would happen to them.

What's more depressing is that there's an atmosphere where I feel I might be roughed up by the authorities or deported for speaking my mind on the politics of this country. Or indeed even just supporting those who have a right to be engaged.

LIve streaming for the protest from HVG via Facebook

Click here - HVG Live Stream

Route the protest will take - click here - Map/Route

We're back now, I know, we don't have the protest stamina of youth.
I hope your daughter got to go, there's a wonderful diversity present. Every one of them detested by the government.
The police were out in full force. And some of them were HOT! :-) If they check the cameras, I walked by several of them several times. They know who they are! :-)
Lots of foreigners, lots of foreigners who had no clue about the most recent Hungarian governmental policies. They were shocked when I explained.

Loved the livestream link -- looking at where they are filming, I was definitely on it. I was the one with the cute dog. Did you see me? I am sure the govt did...
:-)

Vicces1 wrote:

We're back now, I know, we don't have the protest stamina of youth.
I hope your daughter got to go, there's a wonderful diversity present. Every one of them detested by the government.
The police were out in full force. And some of them were HOT! :-) If they check the cameras, I walked by several of them several times. They know who they are! :-)
Lots of foreigners, lots of foreigners who had no clue about the most recent Hungarian governmental policies. They were shocked when I explained.

Loved the livestream link -- looking at where they are filming, I was definitely on it. I was the one with the cute dog. Did you see me? I am sure the govt did...
:-)

I have been watching the live stream but on and off as I had to do some car repairs.  I can see they are just passing Rudas Baths as I type.

I realise my daughter wanted to go and hang out with her friends and I'd have cramped her style.  She had to explain that to me.  I thought it was a protest but it's more celebration.  Bit late to join now as they approach Taban and the park.

Now I've seen it on TV, I should have just gone anyway as it looks like quite good fun and a very well mannered crowd with plenty of dancing.   I doubt I could have  walked all that way due to a dodgy back but could have dipped in.

I saw some guy with a dog mask on and carrying the Swedish flag.  So they'd have some trouble facial recognising him!  I could have worn an anti-COVID mask.

Links to news reports on Budapest Pride 2021 march:

BBC

Euronews

Yes, I saw the dog mask Swedish flag guy.
There were plenty of characters there.
There were lots of celebratory activities -- free badminton and chess, dancing, some cosplay, mostly just chats with friends and such. Really good, colorful fun.

And one more link:  [link under review]

Vicces1 wrote:

there's a wonderful diversity present. Every one of them detested by the government.

***

atomheart wrote:

Vicces1 wrote:

there's a wonderful diversity present. Every one of them detested by the government.

The government does not detest them, they are politicians, they just follow the wishes of the nation. "Celebrating diversity" for the sake of it and calling it "progressive", corrupting the meaning of the word is a western liberal thing that we don't want anything to do with. And most of us don't detest LGBT people either, but we do hate the tendency to overrepresent and glorify them in the media. Ostracizing sick people is bad, but presenting their ways of live as normal to children who haven't developed a sense of normality yet is worse. Many of us are glad we have a ballsy government that dares oppose the trends and are not afraid being labeled the bad guys. I don't think for a second that they are not doing it primarily to stir controversy and fortify their position, but I'm really glad this country is not following the west blindly.

Although that's mega troll like, I'll engage.

For them, nationalism is just another way to stay in power and continue to self-enrich themselves. 

I'm interested  to know how you could explain the sudden rise of Lőrinc Mészáros's financial empire - from gas fitter to oligarch?  All under O1G's watch.  How did that happen? And the rest of Orban's entourage?

fluffy2560 wrote:

I'm interested  to know how you could explain the sudden rise of Lőrinc Mészáros's financial empire - from gas fitter to oligarch?  All under O1G's watch.  How did that happen? And the rest of Orban's entourage?

It's an unrelated question. Most of us also believe that our government is corrupt. I never claimed Orban was a saint. I just said that most of us respect their stance on liberal topics.

atomheart wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I'm interested  to know how you could explain the sudden rise of Lőrinc Mészáros's financial empire - from gas fitter to oligarch?  All under O1G's watch.  How did that happen? And the rest of Orban's entourage?

It's an unrelated question. Most of us also believe that our government is corrupt. I never claimed Orban was a saint. I just said that most of us respect their stance on liberal topics.

It's very related because it's part of the same process. 

We've had the same kind of behaviour each time there's an election.  Orban needs an enemy to incite the population's ire and does it through his dominance of the media. 

It's been the judiciary, refugees, media, Soros and now it's LGBT. It's just demonising another section of civil society to remain in power.    It's moving now to using the EU as an enemy which can only go one way.

BTW, objectively, judging by the numbers in the Pride march yesterday, there's no "most of us", there were thousands there showing support and just tens in the opposition protest.   

Don't you even consider that you're being manipulated and hoodwinked?

Like I said, I believe he does this to stay in power. Regardless, he is addressign a real issue most of hungarians agree with.

atomheart wrote:

Like I said, I believe he does this to stay in power. Regardless, he is addressign a real issue most of Hungarians agree with.

Is it a real issue?

Don't you think what they agree with is just a manipulation and misinformation?  Example: What did you think of the questions put forward in the "national consultation"?   Are they fair? Or loaded?   Would you think it likely that thinking people would engage on that?

There are several objective surveys around that show more than 50% of Hungarians now agree that same sex marriage (for example) is acceptable.   So that's not "most of Hungarians".   You can Google it yourself.

Unfortunately for OV, much is going against the flow elsewhere and doing the same thing each time the outcome is going to be inevitable.   People get tired of this kind of thing.   It's not like history hasn't seen this kind of thing before. Looks to me like the  LGBT law is going to be a EU battle that OV cannot win.   If you scroll back on previous posts, there was discussion  that it could come to HU being kicked out if they do not comply with the norms of the EU and refuse to comply with the decisions of the ECJ etc.   Step too far for Hungary.   

Worth looking at this link to see how many ticks one can get against OV's record. It's clearly a set of pages OV has permanently available on his desk.

It is a real issue.

Could have the same arguments for the 50% agreeing to same-sex marriage: it's the result of manipulation and misinformation.

Yes I know that leving the EU is the most probable outcome and I think there are very strong arguments for it.

atomheart wrote:

It is a real issue.

Could have the same arguments for the 50% agreeing to same-sex marriage: it's the result of manipulation and misinformation.

Yes I know that leving the EU is the most probable outcome and I think there are very strong arguments for it.

I reckon it's changing opinions and development.  The proof is in the pudding.  Lots of countries have legalised same sex marriage and they continue to function the same as before.  The sky didn't fall in etc.  And no-one sits around worrying about it.

But what's your motivation to be against it?  I mean specifically?  Is it religious?  Or what? 

I don't believe the majority of HU people believe that the LGBT law is a battle worth dying for if it means exit from the EU.   Imagine the chaos and economic damage.   

But I do believe OV will force it if it means he can continue in power and milking the system.  He's got no-one else to demonise.

It's really going the wrong way - being "friends" with China,  Belarus and Russia isn't going to be the long term bet. 

Hungary is a small country and no-one will miss it if it regresses into isolation.

One thing which might be critical in OV's thinking is the idea that there would be inquiries and investigations into his entourage's wealth.   One of the reasons why he needs to keep it going.  Some of his friends bought into it and could end up doing time.