Expat interest in politics in Hungary

Atomheart has this "Western Liberal" pinata mindset -- I don't agree with something so it must be beat to death. It ignored centuries of scientific advancement and a rich culture that has dominated life throughout the globe.  As Fluffy mentioned, a majority of Hungarians are LGBT friendly.
Some 56% of Hungarians were found to be accepting of homosexuality, according to a survey made in June by Závecz Research.
Some 20% of Fidesz-KDNP’s voters belong to the “strongly accepting” group, while 24% are “strongly dismissive,

This shows a strong bias in Fidesz, but not the country as a whole.
https://hungarytoday.hu/survey-poll-hun … btq-party/

Atomheart probably considers Islam a religious invasion and yet Fidesz shows a lot more in common with theocracy than democracy, just like Iran.

The Pope himself has stated that gays and lesbians deserve respect from all and endorses civil unions (though not marriage). But Fidesz and its followers in their arrogance and pro-discriminatory mindsets, thinks it knows how to be a better Christian than the Pope.

In October, Pope Francis indicated in a documentary that he thought same-sex couples should be allowed to have "civil unions".
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-56402096

The most recent and heinous example of exploitation comes from O1G's govt. The Peruvian ambassador's cache of Gábor Kaleta.\
19 thousand pedophile images and videos were found on Kaleta’s computer, including violent footage.
Disgusting and deserving of criminal prosecution, right?!  But what did this govt hand down as punishment for such an actual, real, international outrage?
He was handed down a one year suspended prison sentence and ordered to pay a 540 thousand HUF fine.

In Népszava, Miklós Hargitai describes the message of the verdict as a call for pedophiles to ‘come to Hungary, join Fidesz and be safe and sound’....Hargitai accuses the government of protecting pedophiles within the Catholic church as well, and thus making Hungary the last country within the European Union still helping to hush up pedophile crimes.

This is not Western Liberals destroying Hungary, the destruction comes from within!

https://hungarytoday.hu/hungarian-press … sentenced/

Yes, I get it, everything West = good, everything East = bad, follow the west = smart, open towards Russia/China = dumb. The results of surveys always depend on who commissioned them. But I did not want to participate in this conversation, I recognize an echo chamber when I see one. Just wanted to offer another point of view for clarity and for the rest of visitors before they believe that OV is alone in this country.

Have a great day gentlemen! 

I know one of the richest men in Hungary is OV's BFF.
This guy used to be a gas  and heater repair man...
It's true then, "It's not what you know but who you know."
Or as my old,"gay "friends would say,"It's who you know or who you B***"!
Speaking of rules, yesterday the HU gov. voted to force those over age 60 to be vaxed.
They will have their family GP's tell them who isn't vaxed and where they live.
They will come door to door with medical students ready to vax right then and there.
Does this seem to anyone like a take down of seniors, maybe gov. around the world don't want to shell out in SS any longer and old folks cost to much to keep alive.
If they came around and forced everyone no matter their age to be vaxed that would be a differnt story but no one cares about those over age 60.
My husband said it's time to leave HU if they go that far but the US is also ging door to door...
It's a worldwide agenda.I wish I could believe they care and want to help out older peple but I don't believe in fairy tales.
BTW, I am not as liberal as I was when I was younger.
I wish no harm to anyone but also think this entire "gay marriage agenda" that the media is pushing is breaking up many families and hurting children in the end.
I and my husband may have this view because we are children of broken homes.
It's sucked when I was a child and always did.
Seeing daddy once or twice a month for a few hours or visiting him in his studio apt. for the weekend having him try hard to serve a dinner of boiled hot dogs. It hurt my heart then and still does to this day.
My husband said he used to see father's in the park pushing their children on swings and there was no one to push his swing.
I see all of my many cousins who's parents stayed strong and now all my cousins are very succesful people with strong family ties.
Break up the family and you can control everyone.
I also menitoned in the past I was taken in as a teenage runaway by a gay man who wanted to help me finish school and was like a big brother to me.
Maybe gays should stay single but get some benefits if in a serious relationship, save the divorces for straight people.

atomheart wrote:

Yes, I get it, everything West = good, everything East = bad, follow the west = smart, open towards Russia/China = dumb. The results of surveys always depend on who commissioned them. But I did not want to participate in this conversation, I recognize an echo chamber when I see one. Just wanted to offer another point of view for clarity and for the rest of visitors before they believe that OV is alone in this country.

Have a great day gentlemen! 

Aw, don't be like that.  It's important to engage - a good political system has an effective opposition.  But it's not a black and white argument over good vs evil, dumb vs smart etc.  I did say objective polling previously.   I'm truly interested to know how an O1G supporter rationalises their views.

The LGBT is in some ways a bit of a sideshow although potential for becoming part of the chemistry of a disaster for Hungary. 

Russia is simply out to cause chaos in the West to protect it's territorial ambitions in Ukraine.  Belarus is just a blip and unsustainable.   Russia would be more than happy for Hungary to move back into its circle and out of the EU.  It looks like it doesn't even have to try hard.  O1G has no friends anywhere else now. Poland is the same.

Elsewhere and more importantly reality is that China is expansionist and in the Pacific/Asia, the US is beginning to push back now Trump is gone.  A lot of countries worldwide are in hock to China over investments but this is unsustainable, especially now the US is finally woken up to reasserting itself in that region once more.  US has vulnerable territories and interests in the region.   I can see a potential for conflict with China within 5 to 10 years. 

Hungary has over hundreds of years proved itself adept at always backing the wrong horse (remember Mohacs and Admiral Horthy etc). It would be shame for this bad decision making to continue with the upshot of more enrichment of  O1G and Co but for China, this is a cheap way to establish a base in-country.    An extreme view might be that it's allowing essentially a 5th column (Fudan University) into Hungary and the EU via the back door.  And at the expense of your own education system. It's quite bizarre.

Yes Atomheart, when losing an argument based on logic, it is always a fantastic way to show literally no merit whatsoever by using hyperbole and a lack of substantive counterpoints.
Don't engage on facts, don't use evidence, just use vague statements that have no relevance to the subject. 
Please try Fluffy's link showing types of arguments above.

And you do offer a different point of view -- one based on discrimination. It's wrong.  If a KKK member or a Nazi simply argued, well I have a different point of view, it doesn't take on the weight of a counter-argument. It only highlights the problem in your belief(s).

But I'd be as open to arguments and counter-arguments if you included logic, examples, and facts.
I gave you examples of such, and you gave as your reply.....a non-sensical argument that I believed nothing was good in Eastern Europe -- overlooking the blantantly obvious fact that I live here. Obviously, I saw some good...

Vicces1 wrote:

Yes Atomheart, when losing an argument based on logic, it is always a fantastic way to show literally no merit whatsoever by using hyperbole and a lack of substantive counterpoints.
Don't engage on facts, don't use evidence, just use vague statements that have no relevance to the subject. 
Please try Fluffy's link showing types of arguments above.

And you do offer a different point of view -- one based on discrimination. It's wrong.  If a KKK member or a Nazi simply argued, well I have a different point of view, it doesn't take on the weight of a counter-argument. It only highlights the problem in your belief(s).

But I'd be as open to arguments and counter-arguments if you included logic, examples, and facts.
I gave you examples of such, and you gave as your reply.....a non-sensical argument that I believed nothing was good in Eastern Europe -- overlooking the blantantly obvious fact that I live here. Obviously, I saw some good...

I'm really interested to know exactly what the drivers are to support the obvious nonsense of O1G and Co.   

My own drivers for the other way are a strong sense of injustice for members of society who are being victimised for no reason other than who they are.

YMMV!

So what inspires a supporter of illiberal "democracy"?  I've no idea how one could even possibly believe in such a thing.   It's like believing in the fairytale of communism (or fascism or a theocracy) as a way to solve societal problems.  Seems to sounds good on paper but fails to take into account human factors like greed and self-interest.   

Trump is of course a perfect example of using the propaganda techniques. I think the population realises over time this isn't working as they tire of the BS but of course one assumes that awakening would be before it's too late.  Like turkeys voting for Christmas.   

I read an article in the Guardian (click here) about the anti-vaccination people dying for Trump (i.e. not being vaccinated shows loyalty to Trump).   Docs say it's too late for the vaccination if you are dying on the ventilator.

fluffy2560 wrote:

My own drivers for the other way are a strong sense of injustice for members of society who are being victimised for no reason other than who they are.

Perhaps amusingly, my belief is simple -- based mainly on the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Mixed with a bit of Voltaire and tending your own garden....

Vicces1 wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

My own drivers for the other way are a strong sense of injustice for members of society who are being victimised for no reason other than who they are.

Perhaps amusingly, my belief is simple -- based mainly on the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Mixed with a bit of Voltaire and tending your own garden....

Dutch have a saying - Leven en het Leven - Live and Let Live.   In other words, mind your own business and don't try to mess with anyone else's business.  Works for me.

I'm quite interested in humanist stuff.   Definitely not interested in religion except perhaps some aspects of Buddhism.  Voltaire I've heard of but have no idea really.

BTW, apparently my daughter was asked by some Pride heckler - "do you want gay people talking to your children?" and her outstanding snap reply was "better that than talking to a priest".  Yay, defended herself with style!

You say you do not know Voltaire and yet have encapsulated the idea behind Candide quite effectively, to wit: Tend your own garden.

To take care of one's own responsibilities before trying to take care of others: “The mayor ought to cultivate his own garden before he starts telling the governor what to do.” This is the moral of Candide, by Voltaire: take care of your own, and the world will take care of itself.

A recommended read btw

And tremendous kudos for fluffyette!

Vicces1 wrote:

You say you do not know Voltaire and yet have encapsulated the idea behind Candide quite effectively, to wit: Tend your own garden.

To take care of one's own responsibilities before trying to take care of others: “The mayor ought to cultivate his own garden before he starts telling the governor what to do.” This is the moral of Candide, by Voltaire: take care of your own, and the world will take care of itself.

A recommended read btw

And tremendous kudos for fluffyette!

Never knew about Candide.  I just Google'd a few things about it, tried to read the Wiki pages (heavy going and a bit TLDR).  I've had similar problems reading about Wittgenstein.  I tend to want the summary.

The closest discussion I could find was that Forrest Gump has its roots in Candide. I find that easier to relate to!  Apparently there are movies and a musical based upon it but it looks like no-one really covered it properly.

I was most amused to see Candide ridiculed the authorities - government and church - and the US banned its import in 1929.  As soon as that kind of thing happens I want to know what's in it.   It's the Barara Streisand effect.

I remember reading back in the 1990s, when I was doing a training course, a work called "Civil Disobedience" by Henry David Thoreau.  It's main tenet is nicely summed up by the Wiki pages as: 

"....individuals should not permit governments to overrule or atrophy their consciences, and that they have a duty to avoid allowing such acquiescence to enable the government to make them the agents of injustice".

It's not all great with Thoreau but some parts one could dip into and see how one could relate to it in certain contexts, particularly in current circumstances here, in HU.

No. 1 Fluffyette is at an age where injustices of the world are keenly felt - I remember feeling the same way about stuff back in the day.  It's really rather normal but she's way smarter than me.

My political views better to left aside, but even discussing on the topic in my view is a bit decadent. Most of us moved to Hungary because of the style of living, not because of politics (even if it can hit us). Why are we here,? (to me cost of living (although increasing quite a lot), good properties at a reasonable price (renting or buying), friendly people in my view (even if all want something from you (but that is in most countries)
Many good reasons to be in Hungary (Restaurants (although in my area not very diversified (bit minus)), theatre, swimming (Heviz lake), good neighbours, ....)
I am open (very open) to move, still (probably because of EU as well) Hungary has treated us excellent so far.

As other pluses, my first proper health diagnose was performed in Hungary (not in Netherlands, UK or Luxembourg). Perhaps I was just lucky to meet a responsible GP.
I also had my cataract treatment here (part of getting older I suppose).

YES some things to complain, but also YES many reasons to be happy about,
NEVERTHELESS I consider moving (things are becoming too expensive). But with Hungary as a whole (apart from the increasing cost) I am quite satisfied.

cdw057 wrote:

My political views better to left aside, but even discussing on the topic in my view is a bit decadent. Most of us moved to Hungary because of the style of living, not because of politics (even if it can hit us).

That's not true for everyone. Some of us came to work, even on a temporary basis and unexpectedly ended up with a Hungarian partner and time just passed.   Moreover because we've got houses, kids in school and now family connections here, it's become harder to just leave without incurring a significant cost.  We're invested financially and emotionally.  Therefore I wouldn't say it's decadent to talk about the politics here. 

I worry for my kids living in an increasingly authoritarian society that doesn't tolerate diversity or secularism.   The kids are being pressured directly not to be open minded, to be religious (directly in school) and not to respect other people's lifestyle choices or views.   

This is the way it's going here currently.   I see new churches being built all over the place including one 300m from my house - I've never seen anyone using it. 

I didn't expect to have  to counter increasing bigotry here, I thought it would become more progressive, not less so.

Another link:

‘It’s not a threat’: Hungary to hold anti-LGBT law referendum after EU legal action

Unfortunately, nothing new.

In a way I am a bit sad, we are in a decadent situation, I have some gay acquaintances myself and have very good relations with them. (In general they seem to be softer although some of them can be annoying). What is the decadent aspect is that people complain about (slight) changes (even if rightfully so) but rights of gays, democracy, .. in eg Tunesia, Afghanistan, Russia are almost fully ignored. Are women in Afghanistan less valuable then they are in Europe? Are Jehovahs in Russia really sub-humans? Being gay in Tunesia is I think more difficult then it is in Hungary (apart from the situation evolving on Tunesia)

Again I have nothing against gays (in general (with exceptions)) I even like them. Still if banning books for children and a general negative attitude could be exchanged for resolving some other situations it would be good.
Too much focus on local topics, what can I do? Not too much, I am no billionaire, the world is not honest. I give my views to political parties in the Netherlands and perhaps they store them somewhere (if I am lucky). I can buy Tunesian spices (via internet), for Afghanistan, I can just say stay to the parties. I am not a Jehova at all, but they really should not be prosecuted.

cdw057 wrote:

In a way I am a bit sad, we are in a decadent situation, I have some gay acquaintances myself and have very good relations with them. (In general they seem to be softer although some of them can be annoying). What is the decadent aspect is that people complain about (slight) changes (even if rightfully so) but rights of gays, democracy, .. in eg Tunesia, Afghanistan, Russia are almost fully ignored. Are women in Afghanistan less valuable then they are in Europe? Are Jehovahs in Russia really sub-humans? Being gay in Tunesia is I think more difficult then it is in Hungary (apart from the situation evolving on Tunesia)

Again I have nothing against gays (in general (with exceptions)) I even like them. Still if banning books for children and a general negative attitude could be exchanged for resolving some other situations it would be good.
Too much focus on local topics, what can I do? Not too much, I am no billionaire, the world is not honest. I give my views to political parties in the Netherlands and perhaps they store them somewhere (if I am lucky). I can buy Tunesian spices (via internet), for Afghanistan, I can just say stay to the parties. I am not a Jehova at all, but they really should not be prosecuted.

This is not a "decadent situation". These are fundamental rights for a significant portion of the global and Hungarian populations. Whether you know these people or not, whether you endorse their biology or not, you do not have the right to determine their fundamental human rights. And a reminder that Hungary has signed the EU Charter of Human Rights making this a legal compliance issue.

Your equivalencies are without merit. We are not debating if there are places in the world that are worse. And it should not be a matter of pride if you are doing better than the ME in human rights abuses.  You should be striving to be better than you are today in these issues and not looking to compare the country on very narrow topics in comparison to other random countries.

Also, you do not have to be a billionaire to do the right thing. The world has a sense of tradition and moral correctness based on millions of people doing the right things every day. Those who have more ability through fame and finances may do more, but the right thing to do has no price tag. You choose to do it every day without paying a forint for it. You do not speed, you do not steal, you do not assault people... and neither do gays. It costs nothing not to discriminate against them.

As for Hungary compared to Hungary...
Hungary has seen the sharpest drop among EU countries in the annual corruption index compiled by Transparency International (TI), a global NGO.

Hungary dropped 11 points since 2012, scoring 44 out of a 100 on the index, indicating it had become more prone to corruption.

It has joined Bulgaria and Romania at the bottom of the list among EU nations - all ranking jointly at 69, out of the 180 countries surveyed. In first place, seen as the least corrupt, is New Zealand.
https://euobserver.com/economic/150758https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/hun#


It is shown as attacking democractic institutions and norms from the media to the courts to universities and more:
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/c … rs/hungary


This year's report puts Hungary in 92nd place after last year's 89th. The only EU country ranking lower is Bulgaria, while countries such as Albania, Moldova, and North Macedonia are ahead of Hungary.
https://telex.hu/english/2021/04/21/rsf … ngary-92nd

The anti-LGBT law reaches Formula 1 what with the Hungarian Grand Prix coming up this weekend.

Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel speak out over Hungary anti-LGBTQ  law

Hamilton says:
"I urge the people of Hungary to vote in the upcoming referendum to protect the rights of the LGBTQ  community. They need our support more than ever".

While the sentiment is there, he might be better off telling people NOT to vote (i.e. boycott the referendum) because the questions are so loaded that there's no way to actually answer them in a balanced way.

fluffy2560 wrote:

While the sentiment is there, he might be better off telling people NOT to vote (i.e. boycott the referendum) because the questions are so loaded that there's no way to actually answer them in a balanced way.

This is absolutely true. Participate in a farce, thereby legitimizing the discrimination despite the intent, or abstain and not let your voice be heard. Of course when the only voice you are given is one of discrimination then it is best to STFU.
I do not see a way out of this yet. I really do wish the EU would take this existential threat more seriously. Others are watching the free money flow into Hungary despite anything the govt does to deserve retribution -- from abhorrent levels of corruption and graft to inhumane levels of discrimination and scapegoatism.
Fingers crossed for some new, louder voices but I have not heard them yet...

Vicces1 wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

While the sentiment is there, he might be better off telling people NOT to vote (i.e. boycott the referendum) because the questions are so loaded that there's no way to actually answer them in a balanced way.

This is absolutely true. Participate in a farce, thereby legitimizing the discrimination despite the intent, or abstain and not let your voice be heard. Of course when the only voice you are given is one of discrimination then it is best to STFU.
I do not see a way out of this yet. I really do wish the EU would take this existential threat more seriously. Others are watching the free money flow into Hungary despite anything the govt does to deserve retribution -- from abhorrent levels of corruption and graft to inhumane levels of discrimination and scapegoatism.
Fingers crossed for some new, louder voices but I have not heard them yet...

Absolutely right.  In that article about F1, the quote from O1G was:

"The Hungarian prime minister, Viktor Orban, has said the policy is a matter for Hungary, not "Brussels bureaucrats"."

Well, a sound bite but it is the EU's business as it's a human rights charter issue which Hungary signed up to. 

So we're full circle again, taken to an extreme this is going to end up being a EU membership issue. 

If  HU government doesn't agree with the EU norms and the judgements of the EU court system, then it's  over for HU in the EU, just like it'll be over for Poland. 

I don't see that the HU people are going to accept such an outcome just for the love of O1G and his hateful agenda.  He just ain't worth it.

I reckon he'll back down but his timing sucks bringing this on when the election is due in 2022.  He should have done it later because the EU would be too sluggish to respond.  Then he could have just dropped the law when he's got what he wanted - i.e. to be in power again.

Article at Portfolio.hu has the National Consultation questions in English:

Hungary's new national consultation includes questions on anti-LGBTQ  law, Soros, migrants

Deadline for participants is 25 August 2021.

Saw a post on FB that OV is going to be interviewed by the US news personality, Tucker Carlson.
Tucker came to HU to tape the interview from what I gather.
I do sometimes watch him on U tube news, this should be an interesting interview. Not sure when it will air but I'll keep my eyes open.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Saw a post on FB that OV is going to be interviewed by the US news personality, Tucker Carlson.
Tucker came to HU to tape the interview from what I gather.
I do sometimes watch him on U tube news, this should be an interesting interview. Not sure when it will air but I'll keep my eyes open.

If you see a link to the interview, please share.   On the other hand, we'll hear the same story as we normally hear in Hungary.   

There's a related news item this morning over LGBT rights in Russia and how the media there portrays that community.

Tokyo Olympics sparks anti-LGBT slurs on Russian TV

It's obvious the "play" by OV is taken out of Putin's playbook.

I tried to find the first part of the interview last night on Fox news with U tube.
No luck as of yet.
Could be a bit of a time deley with U tube?
Maybe it's playing this week on HU tv with CNN?
I'll post if I hear more about it.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I tried to find the first part of the interview last night on Fox news with U tube.
No luck as of yet.
Could be a bit of a time deley with U tube?
Maybe it's playing this week on HU tv with CNN?
I'll post if I hear more about it.

Thanks.

I Google'd it and I found this CNN Reality Check commentary.  Playback was slow and intermittent.  Some Reality Check comments were against socialised medicine (nothing to do with socialism).  There are links to news reports about it too.

To be honest, I have no idea who Tucker Carlson really is. 

But since I just found out he was Fox News and a Trump brown noser,  it'll be just another backslapping misinformation fest for a minor autocratic regime, their beneficiaries,  sponsors and  supporters.

This picture is doing the rounds.  I didn't get it at first.  Clue: It's Hunglish.

Found this opinion piece interesting:

View Don't be fooled: Hungarian court ruling didn't allow pushbacks

The interesting thing for me was this idea of national characteristics and national identity.  As the opinion piece writer says it gives the right of the state to determine who is entitled to a national identity according to the state's definition of it.   So this means any characteristic could be used for discrimination - being British, LGBTI, French, Romanian or black or a refugee or Jewish in Hungary.  Anything they like.

I cannot see the CJEU upholding this result of the HU Constitutional Court.  The EU will impose  financial penalties.  It's a bit of a twist with the Polish judgement of a 1M EUR fine per day.  I suppose the same will be imposed here.   There's also the Bulgarian failure in the CJEU on LGBT rights which will reverberate around here too.

Tucker Carlson is a POS. He is a rich conservative (Swanson food fortune heir) who twists words into bizarre fallacies to stoke up his followers. He now has one of the most-watched shows on Fox.
He stokes racial division, he stokes debunked theories of political corruption, he doubts man-made climate change, he is completely hypocritical, he is just a pus-ridden, maggot-infested mudstain on the underwear of a nazi sympathizer. Oh, and he loves Orban.

Vicces1 wrote:

Tucker Carlson is a POS. He is a rich conservative (Swanson food fortune heir) who twists words into bizarre fallacies to stoke up his followers. He now has one of the most-watched shows on Fox.
He stokes racial division, he stokes debunked theories of political corruption, he doubts man-made climate change, he is completely hypocritical, he is just a pus-ridden, maggot-infested mudstain on the underwear of a nazi sympathizer. Oh, and he loves Orban.

Fox is an echo chamber.   People hear the same from others and it reinforces their own views. Its sort of like a route to right wing radicalisation. 

I suppose Tucker Carlson needs to get his latest "album" listened to before he becomes a has been and people turn away. It would mean more and more strange and dangerous stuff in an attempt to trump the previous theory (pun intended).  Eventually, TC will become irrelevant

We've got a strange guy in the UK called David Icke.   Not only does he have some extreme views, some of his output looks like the ravings of a lunatic.  He used to be a footballer, did sports broadcasting on the TV and now peddles bizarre theories.   Personally I think the guy had a mental breakdown somewhere along the line.  Maybe he'll come clean and say it was just a way to make money from gullible people.

My favourite theory is that the Royal Family are shape shifting lizards.  Hilarous!  They may be "lizards" but a lot of people are.  So what's so new about that then?!

fluffy2560 wrote:

We've got a strange guy in the UK called David Icke.   Not only does he have some extreme views, some of his output looks like the ravings of a lunatic.  He used to be a footballer, did sports broadcasting on the TV and now peddles bizarre theories.   Personally I think the guy had a mental breakdown somewhere along the line.  Maybe he'll come clean and say it was just a way to make money from gullible people.

He has a son, and he is going the same way, both are totally nuts

SimCityAT wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

We've got a strange guy in the UK called David Icke.   Not only does he have some extreme views, some of his output looks like the ravings of a lunatic.  He used to be a footballer, did sports broadcasting on the TV and now peddles bizarre theories.   Personally I think the guy had a mental breakdown somewhere along the line.  Maybe he'll come clean and say it was just a way to make money from gullible people.

He has a son, and he is going the same way, both are totally nuts

I suppose if you've been brought up on a diet of drivel and nonsense, it's going to surely blow your mind.   It's a kind of abuse.   Humans should be well rounded, cooperative and able to distinguish right and wrong. 

I always wondered if well known fascists' offsprings would be extremist too.  Stalin's daughter wasn't like that - defected to the USA.  On the other hand, North Korea....nuts  AND dangerous too.

Interesting news re: Poland primacy of EU law

Brussels begins legal action against Poland over primacy of EU law row

Poland's result is going to be interesting for HU since OV's recent pronouncements:

Orban says Hungary will defy EU court ruling on asylum policy

Looks like opening salvos of a wider battle to come across multiple fronts.

One thing of interest to me is the lack of coverage of the consequences of these actions from the EU's point of view. They make a high-handed lofty argument about cohesion that means nothing to the average working-class Hungarian or Polish citizen. What really may drive the point home, especially in this time of soaring inflation, is the amount of money being held up and why -- say it loud, clear, and often that hundreds of millions of Euros are being held up specifically on X, Y, and Z issues.
Europe stands with Poland on the Belorussian border dispute. France, Germany, and others have been very clear about that. So be just as loud and clear about the Rule of Law and what that means to the average citizen.
Again, keeping the language pointed not as lofty pie in the sky ideals, but as actionable, implementable policies, where only a few obstructionists stand in the way.  Again, in this time of soaring energy prices and general inflation, as Fluffy has said before bringing up Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs pyramid, the fact 2 gays are kissing or that lady over there has to wear a mask when going to the store become non-issues when it's my choice to heat my home and feed my family or starve on these nationalistic principles.

Vicces1 wrote:

One thing of interest to me is the lack of coverage of the consequences of these actions from the EU's point of view. They make a high-handed lofty argument about cohesion that means nothing to the average working-class Hungarian or Polish citizen. What really may drive the point home, especially in this time of soaring inflation, is the amount of money being held up and why -- say it loud, clear, and often that hundreds of millions of Euros are being held up specifically on X, Y, and Z issues.
Europe stands with Poland on the Belorussian border dispute. France, Germany, and others have been very clear about that. So be just as loud and clear about the Rule of Law and what that means to the average citizen.
Again, keeping the language pointed not as lofty pie in the sky ideals, but as actionable, implementable policies, where only a few obstructionists stand in the way.  Again, in this time of soaring energy prices and general inflation, as Fluffy has said before bringing up Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs pyramid, the fact 2 gays are kissing or that lady over there has to wear a mask when going to the store become non-issues when it's my choice to heat my home and feed my family or starve on these nationalistic principles.

I am not really sure why they are keeping quiet about it but I can guess.   Perhaps just waiting for the court case to follow it's path and see the result.  It seems to me PL will lose.  Why would the court shoot itself in the foot by ruling in favour of PL and the chaos that could follow?  It could even lead to the disintegration of the EU.  It's a risky strategy to rule against the EU. 

They also probably don't want it to be a war of words entertaining Putin who might be the author of the entire thing.  He favours distabilisation in the USSR's former satellites.  As others (Cynic) says, Poland-Belarus border issues are about NATO and not the EU per se.

I think does affect many HU and PL citizens because may ordinary people will want the opportunity to work abroad on higher wages and opportunity or just travel. 

What I don't get is how far PL and HU want to push it?   Leaving the EU would be a terrible idea for those countries. What would be the alternative but eventually emerge as some kind of banana republic run by tinpot wannabe dictators like here. And who would really care if Russia invaded and HU was out of the EU.   Meh, take it Vlad.

It's been bad enough for the UK to get out and that's a big economy.  It's going to take years to recover there.

It'll be even worse economically for HU and PL to leave.

It is a wasteful game that I would say simply extends O1G's wish to remain in power using divisive politics. This was his official statement earlier this year regarding Huexit:

    "The official English version reads: "[T]he time has come, now in July 2021, to seriously consider the possibility of our withdrawal from a union of states with a thousand bleeding wounds, showing imperial symptoms, and treating the eastern and central European countries incredibly arrogantly." The reason given: "Our paths have diverged as the West now consciously ( … ) breaks from Christian morality and values. Instead, they aim to build a cosmopolitan, faceless world society based on the unbridled self-enjoyment and self-destruction of the individual ( … ). [By contrast,] we Hungarians, Poles and central and eastern European people hold on to our cultural and religious foundations."

Budapest-based political scientist Peter Kreko told DW that an exit from the EU was not yet in Orban's interest. "He is, however, interested in turning public opinion against the EU in order to potentially blackmail Brussels with the threat of a possible Huxit. In this regard, his aim is to aggravate hostility towards the EU in Hungary."

- I can only imagine a blackmail scenario because, as you [Fluffy] wrote, both countries are large majority supporters of remaining in the EU (Poland 84% / Hu 67%) and those numbers have only gone up in the last few years.  BTW - looking at the youth vote, it is 82% pro-EU with HU adults aged 18-34, no doubt for the freedom of movement economics. And again, pulling out the Fidesz opinions, they have a majority anti-EU opinion, but skew to an older population.

So again, with rhetoric like the following, how serious are Poland and Hungary about leaving the EU (currently), and to what end?
“Brussels sends us overlords who are supposed to bring Poland to order, on our knees,” a leading member of Poland’s governing Law and Justice party, Marek Suski, said this month, adding that Poland “will fight the Brussels occupier” as it fought past Nazi and Soviet occupiers.

With strong support for the EU, as cited, O1G may have used inflammatory rhetoric for effect, rather than intention as many revolt even in his own party. He has backtracked stating:
In a radio interview last week (article written September 25), Orban said Hungary “will be among the last ones in the EU, should it ever cease to exist.”

Researchers state:
Hungary’s anti-EU rhetoric is likely a “test balloon” to gauge public support on how far the government can take its conflicts with the bloc, Hegedus said, and to garner support for the ruling party ahead of elections.

“I think they are framing this whole issue very consciously so that people will associate the European Union with rather controversial issues which are dividing Hungarian society,” he said.

So divisional politics ahead of a close election in Hungary?
No idea the Polish political desire...it is already financially suffering a bit from the anti-LGBT legislation and campaigns.

I'll step off my soapbox, apologies for the long message. Aside from egos, I cannot fathom why autocrats like O1G trod down the path of negative hyperbole when they could be doing so much good for their nations. The list is long and getting longer of these types throughout the world. I'm waiting for some sort of consequences, but they seem to be in short supply. From Putin to Trump, from Lukashenko to O1G, and even Xi in China, brash divisive politics seems to be the Teflon of this generation, absolving political leaders of any responsibility for the societal divisiveness they themselves cause while complaining about exactly the same thing.
Anyway - Best wishes to all for a Kellemes Karacsony / Boldog Unnepeket!! 

Citations:
https://www.dw.com/en/hungary-vs-eu-is- … a-58934527

An older survey (2017) still shows a majority of Hungarians against the government and strongly backing EU membership:
https://www.iri.org/sites/default/files … tation.pdfhttps://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019 … ean-union/

Vicces1 wrote:

It is a wasteful game that I would say simply extends O1G's wish to remain in power using divisive politics. This was his official statement earlier this year regarding Huexit:

    "The official English version reads: "[T]he time has come, now in July 2021, to seriously consider the possibility of our withdrawal from a union of states with a thousand bleeding wounds, showing imperial symptoms, and treating the eastern and central European countries incredibly arrogantly." The reason given: "Our paths have diverged as the West now consciously ( … ) breaks from Christian morality and values. Instead, they aim to build a cosmopolitan, faceless world society based on the unbridled self-enjoyment and self-destruction of the individual ( … ). [By contrast,] we Hungarians, Poles and central and eastern European people hold on to our cultural and religious foundations."

Budapest-based political scientist Peter Kreko told DW that an exit from the EU was not yet in Orban's interest. "He is, however, interested in turning public opinion against the EU in order to potentially blackmail Brussels with the threat of a possible Huxit. In this regard, his aim is to aggravate hostility towards the EU in Hungary."

- I can only imagine a blackmail scenario because, as you [Fluffy] wrote, both countries are large majority supporters of remaining in the EU (Poland 84% / Hu 67%) and those numbers have only gone up in the last few years.  BTW - looking at the youth vote, it is 82% pro-EU with HU adults aged 18-34, no doubt for the freedom of movement economics. And again, pulling out the Fidesz opinions, they have a majority anti-EU opinion, but skew to an older population.

So again, with rhetoric like the following, how serious are Poland and Hungary about leaving the EU (currently), and to what end?
“Brussels sends us overlords who are supposed to bring Poland to order, on our knees,” a leading member of Poland’s governing Law and Justice party, Marek Suski, said this month, adding that Poland “will fight the Brussels occupier” as it fought past Nazi and Soviet occupiers.

With strong support for the EU, as cited, O1G may have used inflammatory rhetoric for effect, rather than intention as many revolt even in his own party. He has backtracked stating:
In a radio interview last week (article written September 25), Orban said Hungary “will be among the last ones in the EU, should it ever cease to exist.”

Researchers state:
Hungary’s anti-EU rhetoric is likely a “test balloon” to gauge public support on how far the government can take its conflicts with the bloc, Hegedus said, and to garner support for the ruling party ahead of elections.

“I think they are framing this whole issue very consciously so that people will associate the European Union with rather controversial issues which are dividing Hungarian society,” he said.

So divisional politics ahead of a close election in Hungary?
No idea the Polish political desire...it is already financially suffering a bit from the anti-LGBT legislation and campaigns.

I'll step off my soapbox, apologies for the long message. Aside from egos, I cannot fathom why autocrats like O1G trod down the path of negative hyperbole when they could be doing so much good for their nations. The list is long and getting longer of these types throughout the world. I'm waiting for some sort of consequences, but they seem to be in short supply. From Putin to Trump, from Lukashenko to O1G, and even Xi in China, brash divisive politics seems to be the Teflon of this generation, absolving political leaders of any responsibility for the societal divisiveness they themselves cause while complaining about exactly the same thing.
Anyway - Best wishes to all for a Kellemes Karacsony / Boldog Unnepeket!! 

Citations:
https://www.dw.com/en/hungary-vs-eu-is- … a-58934527

An older survey (2017) still shows a majority of Hungarians against the government and strongly backing EU membership:
https://www.iri.org/sites/default/files … tation.pdfhttps://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019 … ean-union/

That post really hits it all very squarely on the head. I think too, it's just a way of extending time in office.  O1G always said that Fidesz should be in power forever more. Presumably with him at the helm guiding the Hungarian nation to his (and only his) hateful vision of nirvana. 

I do think it's a fad though, this rhetoric of division.  It cannot go on, people are going to suss it out and new thinking has to enter the population.   Fidesz has been in power for 10 years, which means there's more or less a generation coming of age who have known only that and the benefits of the EU.  I cannot see them voting to remove their rights.  O1G seeming to backtrack is just a smokescreen to his agenda.

But as you say, this weird  kind of strata of society which are too dimwitted or brainwashed (radicalised?) to think for themselves.  Sorry, dimwitted is harsh, but I'm beginning to think this is how it is.  My FIL was like that and many of his peers.   He lived an isolated, bubble like, echo chamber of coddled life under communism which fostered a range of xenophobic views.  Ideal fodder for manipulation.

O1G has been bashed by the EU courts a couple of times now.  However he tries to sell it to the population, he's going to have to stop BS'ing when he's forced into compliance or HUexit will happen.  People are going to notice eventually.

I have hope that O1G will be out in the next election and it will become more reasonable.  But I'm not holding my breath.

It's unusual for a US president in office or out to voice support for an overseas candidate, but Donald Trump has come out for Viktor Orbán in no uncertain terms.

"He is a strong leader and respected by all. He has my Complete support and Endorsement for reelection as Prime Minister!"

zif wrote:

It's unusual for a US president in office or out to voice support for an overseas candidate, but Donald Trump has come out for Viktor Orbán in no uncertain terms.

"He is a strong leader and respected by all. He has my Complete support and Endorsement for reelection as Prime Minister!"

Respected by all?   That's a stretch.  Got a link to that?

Summary:  A discredited ex-President, head of a family of alleged racketeers, facing criminal charges in the USA supports O1G, the unpopular and suspect PM of a sovereign, independent and foreign state.

Well, that's OK then. 

No problem that  Donald Trump feels he has a need and permission to interfere in the affairs of a foreign state.

Trump does not give a damn or care about that midget thief. It is just the usual orban propaganda/lies.

afarkas1111 wrote:

Trump does not give a damn or care about that midget thief. It is just the usual orban propaganda/lies.

O1G thinks it might improve his standing to have Trump on his side. 

I reckon it causes more damage to be associated with such a f***wit.

What's next Putin and Xi Jinping and Luksashenko endorse O1G too?  Yay!  Dobby, Poo Bear and the mustachioed cockroach give their rubber stamps of approval.  Means a lot.  Thanks guys.

Apparently O1G is asking for donations for his advertising campaign for this years election.   Good luck with that!

fluffy2560 wrote:

Apparently O1G is asking for donations for his advertising campaign for this years election.   Good luck with that!

The asking for campaign money is a page right out of tRump's playbook. Poor people send him, a corrupt "billionaire" who pays no taxes and has a list of bankruptcies and financial "irregularities" surrounding him, but he begs for money stating it is for the good of the country, but if you read the fine print, the campaign can do anything they want for the company -- like pay off tRump's debts to a German bank, or pay for him to go golfing.

O1G, a vastly corrupt politician, stealing money, refusing EU audits, and enriching himself, his family, and his cronies from siphoned EU funds and internal practices is now begging for money... Why not ask his friend Lorencz?
But it worked for tRump who raked in millions...you know there are grannies who will send money to O1G as well. It should be shameful, it should be illegal, but this is how low immoral global politics and idiocy has dragged us down to.

Vicces1 wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Apparently O1G is asking for donations for his advertising campaign for this years election.   Good luck with that!

The asking for campaign money is a page right out of tRump's playbook. Poor people send him, a corrupt "billionaire" who pays no taxes and has a list of bankruptcies and financial "irregularities" surrounding him, but he begs for money stating it is for the good of the country, but if you read the fine print, the campaign can do anything they want for the company -- like pay off tRump's debts to a German bank, or pay for him to go golfing.

O1G, a vastly corrupt politician, stealing money, refusing EU audits, and enriching himself, his family, and his cronies from siphoned EU funds and internal practices is now begging for money... Why not ask his friend Lorencz?

But it worked for tRump who raked in millions...you know there are grannies who will send money to O1G as well. It should be shameful, it should be illegal, but this is how low immoral global politics and idiocy has dragged us down to.

I don't think it would work here.  O1G voters must be tiring of it, worn down by the endlessly pathetic regurgitated bile we see on the posters now.   

But apart from that, if anyone still believes in him,  I'd be very surprised, especially with his fight with the EU.   No-one wants to leave the EU here.  It's the only thing holding him to account and besides, the HU people have benefited tremendously.   Why would they give that up for him?   

Obviously Putin and Xi Jinping are just manipulating him for their own ends.  I don't think he can see it from inside his bubble.   They might even be responsible for much manipulation.

As for his entourage, they will investigate once O1G is out of power.  Most of the money is probably already in Dubai and the private jet is on standby.  I believe the same model is going on in Belarus except no-one wants that guy to hide in their country - except perhaps Equatorial Guinea.  I expect most of O1G's supporters will be investigated as well but while the top echelon escapes, the lower level will probably be convicted.