A Hidden Crisis in Vietnam

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Indices wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

Indices, can you post links to your former projects that show your name as being one of the projects engineers. If you want people to get involved, some evidence of your past projects will help.

The people I am looking for know already and I see no need to make claims from building aircraft to knowing all there is to know about the Delta. The remaining senior positions to be filled are :

1)  Project Director and assistant.
2)  Materials Sourcing and Acquisition Director and assistant.
3) CAD Manager
4) Accountant
5) Public Information Manager.
6) Vietnamese/English liaison. ( 2 posts ).
7) Habitat and wildlife expert related to the specific region in question.
8) Agricultural consultant.
( All detailed responsibilities, further job descriptions, term of contract ( initially estimated at two years but subject to being finalised ) and salary expectation are available on request )

All senior engineers and geologists have already been chosen and are currently carrying out surveys much higher up the delta above the dams, much of which has already been completed although not all data has yet been analysed.
Manual labour, machinery contractors etc will be sourced locally where possible.

Every senior member of the project team has to be approved by the grant administration bodies who carry out their own due diligence with regards to qualifications, experience and so on prior to final selection which, whilst at my sole discretion, will be discussed with the senior team before appointment.
To my knowledge there are only two members of the forum that fit the bill for any of the above and both have been in contact. Whilst I extend respect to other members here they do not have the skills for this particular project unless I have overlooked someone for which I apologise and would suggest they get in contact.

The posts above have already been sent to various sources for distribution amongst the relative community but whilst preference will be given to those that I have had personal experience with before on previous projects I value new blood and innovative ideas so 'first timers' to such a project are very welcome to apply particularly those familiar with convex and concave accelerative fluid dynamic applications, the latest combined aquaculture/crop technology and projected food requirement economics.

Whats the name of this project. I will get my brother inlaw (UBND)to check out the project to get a better understanding of it.

There is no name as such, just a working description.
Sustainable Food Proposal/Reverse Osmosis System for the Mekong Delta.
The details will not be available for a while. This is at my request as we do not need lobbyists or endless sales people trying to make contact to supply whatever. Another reason is it is important to prevent the usual exploitation of land ownership within the catchment area affected by the project. Cheap unproductive land that will benefit will obviously rise in value and some properties over a much wider area may go either way depending on location. Everything will be done to prevent profiteering as far as possible so all, or as much as can be, will be in place before any details are released. I head the project so all enquiries will eventually come to my office although I may not personally deal with them.
There is a long way to go yet but so far looks promising. If you would like to register for more information as and when it becomes available you will have the opportunity to do so but there will not be any public debate or large-scale property development etc so anyone looking to make a profit from the project will be disappointed because there will not be any other than for the farmers and fish producers at whom the project is aimed.
All final details will also obviously go before the government although this will be done at a higher level than I have. If they give their final approval I have no doubt they will make sure the media are aware of it.

****

Is indices still on here? Sounds like he’s working on a game changer. I too would be interested in knowing knowing more about it or other projects he’s worked on.

phikachu wrote:

Is indices still on here? Sounds like he’s working on a game changer. I too would be interested in knowing knowing more about it or other projects he’s worked on.

Dont believe everything you read.

phikachu wrote:

Is indices still on here?

He's permanently banned.

Ciambella wrote:

phikachu wrote:

Is indices still on here?

He's permanently banned.

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

Indices wrote:

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

I admit to having gone through full programs of Cognitive Processing Therapy (CPT) and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and Anger Management through the Veterans Administration Health Care System.

I admit I have learned (usually) not to vomit forth every rage-inspired reactive thought that pings my mind.

I admit that I do my best--though not always meeting goals--to be proactive and introspective before opening my mouth to comment about other people.

And I am honored that there is a human being who I call my sponsor, to whom I can turn for brutally honest feedback.

You are the one who has written about your "Alcohol Abuse Counselor" and "Alcohol Abuse Meeting", otherwise I would likely not reply to you as I have.

You seem like a fine fellow, and more than one of us forum members have noticed your ability to write a story well.

From your comments I assume you are successfully abstaining from alcohol consumption (and "Consumption" as well) to which I tip my hat and say "Bravo!"

However, you have a habit of tweaking your otherwise good stories and comments with judgements of other people, such as the forum "Mafia" you disdain.

So while I hope I get the chance to read more of what you have to say, I think it's fair to note (since you first introduced the subject of Alcohol Abuse) that your abstinence does not always seem to produce sober thinking, based on what you write.

That is meant as an assessment, not as a judgment of you as a person.

Maybe your counselor would find it interesting to read what you write on here but it sounds like you don't have that kind of relationship with your counselor, where you would provide your writings to show them the way you're thinking.

I won't make any more comments that allude to this subject.

Comments on Alcohol Abuse were written as sarcasm not fact although despite your admirable CBT you still seem occasionally to fail to detect humour. The problem I have with alcohol is that my supplier sometimes runs out of the Malt Whisky I prefer.

You comments are all the more understandable then, and I'll definitely refrain from commenting as if you and I are mutually seeking sobriety.

Cheers!

Before coming to VN the company  I worked for stored and distributed bottling materials for various companies in Ireland. On a visit to one bottling plant owned by Irish Distillers in Dublin, that produces  millions of bottles a week.. just 10 members of staff operate it. The manager there a third generation employee spoke of how when he joined the company every employee got a glass in the morning and another glass of whiskey in the afternoon. They provided a bus service for the staff to get too and from work. And on Saturdays they used to host AA meetings in the bottling hall..

LSP123 wrote:

Sorry but need clarify my bottle came in from Duty free Singapore, so cannot be FAKE!

First job many years ago when I left school was for a United Distillers Group, who owned Johnnie Walker at the time. You would be surprised where fakes turned up around the world. Some very reputable outlets were selling fake products without knowing

Best perk of the job at the time was monthly staff sales.. depending on pay grade could buy duty free spirits once a month. Gin, Vodka, whisky... Even Guinness who owned us at the time.

Hello everyone,

I had to remove some unnecessary posts.

Thank you for your comprehension.

Regards.

Loïc

Ciambella wrote:

phikachu wrote:

Is indices still on here?

He's permanently banned.

Must have missed the drama.  Why was he banned?

colinoscapee wrote:

phikachu wrote:

Is indices still on here? Sounds like he’s working on a game changer. I too would be interested in knowing knowing more about it or other projects he’s worked on.

Dont believe everything you read.

Oh I believe this.

https://tuoitrenews.vn/news/society/202 … 53565.html

I was just wondering indices role was in it.

phikachu wrote:

I was just wondering indices role was in it.

The article conflates two things; domestic water salinity and irrigation water salinity.   There are differences in tolerable limits of salinity and obviously in volume requirements.  Generally speaking, humans can deal with a lot more salinity in water than most crops can tolerate.  One exception may be coconuts which is the primary commercial crop in Ben Tre. 

The article mentions reverse osmosis but in the domestic water context.  Indices had made claims about using what he called "contraflow-deosmosis" on an agricultural scale which is doubtful.

I see...

I wonder why he was banned.

On the subject of coconuts, I have a thing for anything made from coconuts and love coconut water. Recently I even climbed up a coconut palm and picked my first ever one. That tasted amazing. Hypothetically (yes I really have tried googling this), if a coconut grows in polluted water could it ever get contaminated to the point it's... poisonous? Obviously If they grew coconuts in a place like Chernobyl I would never touch one let alone drink it but I mean like can water be dirty enough for the coconut to be bad for your health because you know how they say how pure coconut water is... I asked my girlfriend this and she said I'm stupid.

phikachu wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

phikachu wrote:

Is indices still on here?

He's permanently banned.

Must have missed the drama.  Why was he banned?

colinoscapee wrote:

phikachu wrote:

Is indices still on here? Sounds like he’s working on a game changer. I too would be interested in knowing knowing more about it or other projects he’s worked on.

Dont believe everything you read.

Oh I believe this.

https://tuoitrenews.vn/news/society/202 … 53565.html

I was just wondering indices role was in it.

My point was, don't believe what he was posting.

One important thing to understand about salt tolerant crops like coconut is that the term does not mean that they prefer saline water, but only that they tolerate it.The same trees grown with a fresh water will probably outyield trees grown with saline, all other things being equal.  Coconuts are probably the economic crop of choice in Ben Tre because they will grow in areas and with water that will not grow rice.

One interesting thing about coconuts that does not come into play in the Mekong Delta is that they are elevation sensitive.  They will appear to grow adequately but will not produce nuts over about 1000 ft.  Yields are diminished starting at about 500 ft..  This comes into play on the more mountainous Pacific islands and is true even where temperatures and soils may be adequate or even favorable.

phikachu wrote:

Obviously If they grew coconuts in a place like Chernobyl I would never touch one let alone drink it but I mean like can water be dirty enough for the coconut to be bad for your health because you know how they say how pure coconut water is... I asked my girlfriend this and she said I'm stupid.

How do mangrove swamps cope so well with often daily submergence in sea water ??

The sources of drinking water from up river are being restricted due to hydro electric dams being built in neighbouring countries.  Seems green energy is bad for the environment in other ways

There must be a way to build desalination plants here that use little or no energy. If water tanks on home roofs can produce hot water in more rural areas by simply being in the sun all day then the same process must be adaptable on a larger scale ?? Need an engineer for this

Jlgarbutt wrote:

The sources of drinking water from up river are being restricted due to hydro electric dams being built in neighbouring countries.  Seems green energy is bad for the environment in other ways

I did a little map exploration.  There are no Vietnamese dams on the Mekong proper but it looks to me like the Vietnamese hydro power in the central highland is mostly driven by water in branches of the Mekong.  These are not tributaries that feed in but branches that feed out of the main river.  I wouldn't be surprised if the outflow of these branches was engineered to be amplified. 

Jlgarbutt wrote:

There must be a way to build desalination plants here that use little or no energy.

If you figure this problem out you will receive the Nobel Prize for Physics. 

Where is indices when you need him 😋

Dams in Cambodia and China are the ones reduce water flow further in land..

I would like to put in my limited twopence worth to this thread & just to give you all a small background to why I think I can.


I have no university degrees but do have technical engineering qualifications & a USCG & DNV MODU Chief Engineers Ticket.

I worked offshore on various oil production platforms, semi submersibles, drillships & Jack Up drilling rigs starting as a lowly mechanic, chief mechanic, maintenance supervisor, maintenance manager, asset manager & finally rig manager for what was in its day one of the biggest drill ships ever built. During this time (45 years +) all these described vessels produced their own potable water made from sea water either from Reverse Osmosis or waste heat evaporators & thats why I think I can comment & contribute to the discussion.

First off as far as I can make out there are two water issues in the Mekong Delta being discussed here :-
Issue 1…….fresh clean drinking water for human consumption.

Issue2…….water suitable to grow crops effectively due to the water contamination with chemicals & increased salinity.

So lets look at Issue 1………….both EVAP & RO can produce drinking water suitable for human consumption but in the situation of Mekong there are problems with water volume produced, power consumption & waste brine production.

EVAP fresh water production on a ship uses the ample supply of waste heat at 95 degrees C from the power generation say 3,000 kw to heat sea water & combined with vacuum drawn in the vap chamber then water boiles at about 70 to 75 degrees C & the fresh water produced on a 24 hours average was between 60 to 70 MT & that was enough for a ships compliment of between 120 to 150 persons. However on the down side the EVAP needs electrical power to drive a powerful vacuum pump, brine pump, chemical injection pump & all aux controls. Constant chemicals are added to stop scaling up of the evap pipes, internal chambers & of course chemicals are added to kill any germs bacteria etc that might have survived the process & are in in the produced water. Regular down time maintenance is essential on this type of unit & taken over a 1 year cycle normal replacement pumps chemicals etc would be in excess of 6,000usd for a quite small production in volume unit supplying 150 people.

RO uses membrane separation of salts & micro solids from the water under high pressure & is a lot less mechanically complicated but requires more power supply to work efficiently. A typical ships RO unit will require aux power supply for a pre filtration unit, HP water pump, brine pump, chemical injection pump, & controls. The fresh water produced on a 24 hours average was between 60 to 70 MT & that was enough for a ships compliment of between 120 to 150 persons. RO units are less maint intensive (down time) but are & can be quite expensive to run taken over a 1 year cycle normal replacement of membrane, pumps chemicals etc would be in excess of 10,000usd. for a quite small production in volume unit supplying 150 people.

On a ship by the way the water produced is so pure that you have to add minerals back into the water to make it suitable for human consumption.

So lets look at Issue 2 ………….both RO & evap can produce fresh water suitable for growing crops, & obviously its not sea water I presume we are talking about so the salinity will be much less. But in the situation of Mekong there would be problems with dirty supplied water & the vast volume of treated water required to make any difference, power supply & consumption & waste brine production.

EVAP just cant see the volumes of treated water to make a difference coming from solar heat & power, even although as I say the water to be treated would not have the salinity of sea water, but its just the volume of water & vastness of farm land to be treated to make a difference, I just cant see its at all feasible.

RO could do it I suppose but where is the power supply going to come from to power the thousands of RO units dotted all over the Mekong Delta & the money to maintain them. Also where is all the millions of gallons of brine that is produced going to go , back into the nearest open waterway & adding to the salinity? This is a very slow flowing delta we are talking about remember! (to produce 1 gallon of fresh water 1.5 gallsons +- of brine is produced aprox)

At least every 3 hours, both these types of systems require regular watch keeping, tweeking & logging of operational parameters to be maintained.

Please remember all my statements are made taking into my experience in an offshore environment & should be read as such. If there are systems out there now that fulfil the needs of Mekong solar power for example or less power to production volumes then I totally accept any input.

As an addition I would add that countries like UAE for example that are at the forefront of land based salt to fresh water production use Solar as a very small percentage in their total water production. Mostly they use excess waste flare gas from their oilfields that is basically free.

Life on the Mekong Delta will never be the same no matter how much treating of the water gets done. The natural annual ebb, flow & flood cycles of the river are compromised sorry to say it but I think for ever & only going to get dramatically worse in years to come.

https://theaseanpost.com/article/does-l … its-people

goodolboy wrote:

Please remember all my statements are made taking into my experience in an offshore environment & should be read as such. If there are systems out there now that fulfil the needs of Mekong solar power for example or less power to production volumes then I totally accept any input.

Thank you for what you wrote.  As Indices never could provide anything even close to the kind of technical information that you just did, I think it is fairly safe to assume that his "project" existed almost entirely in his own head.  As I told Jigarbutt, if you can devise a low power desalination method, you will be a world hero.  I think the whole thing can be put to rest. 

THIGV wrote:

One important thing to understand about salt tolerant crops like coconut is that the term does not mean that they prefer saline water, but only that they tolerate it.The same trees grown with a fresh water will probably outyield trees grown with saline, all other things being equal.  Coconuts are probably the economic crop of choice in Ben Tre because they will grow in areas and with water that will not grow rice.

One interesting thing about coconuts that does not come into play in the Mekong Delta is that they are elevation sensitive.  They will appear to grow adequately but will not produce nuts over about 1000 ft.  Yields are diminished starting at about 500 ft..  This comes into play on the more mountainous Pacific islands and is true even where temperatures and soils may be adequate or even favorable.

Thanks for trying to explain this, it doesn't quite answer the question I always have in my head when cracking open a fresh coconut. It's my fault for asking in a long winded way but I know you have background in agriculture and could perhaps answer it.

Basically, water contamination can affect crops right. Do you think the flesh and water of a coconut could ever be contaminated because of a polluted water source?

Like how we consume mercury indirectly through all the fishes swimming in the waste we dump into the ocean. Can a water in a coconut ever be contaminated like so? I know it's random but you brought up the subject of coconuts growing in salt water and I really do think about it.

I assumed that if the water was polluted enough the tree would die or bear less fruit until it dies but I do wonder if the water inside could ever get... unsafe.

You really are pretty far outside of my experience let alone expertise, but I will give it a stab.  I do know that toxins can accumulate in certain parts of the plant.  Sometimes this can surprise people.  I was growing watermelons in Hawaii in the 80's when most of the California crop had to be condemned because of an agricultural chemical that had accumulated in the fruit even though the farmers had applied it in the soil primarily to protect young seedlings.  As far as contamination of coconuts, I would think that heavy metals could be a concern but I don't know how the Mekong Delta water is with respect to heavy metals.  I wouldn't be too concerned about bacterial contamination of the water.  A lot of crops are grown in water that is unfit for human consumption.  Generally speaking plants are unaffected by bacteria and viruses that affect animals and animals don't catch plant diseases, so running the water through the crop is almost like a type of filtration.

Also, I wouldn't be concerned with the coconut water as opposed to the flesh.  If one is contaminated the other is likely to be, and conversely If one is unaffected the other will be too.  A high percentage of the crop in Vietnam is harvested young (in Hawaii these are colloquially called spoon coconuts because you can scoop the flesh with a spoon) but for mature nuts the flesh absorbs the water as it grows thicker.

Thanks for that.

Recently, I carried two watermelons from nha trang all the way to dao diep son (got to support the farmers who couldn’t export it). As we ate on the island, my girlfriend told me the story of Mai An Tiem who got banished to an island and grew watermelons. So i said I’d go around the island spreading the seeds to grow watermelon trees. Or the time someone took me to a pineapple farm and I couldn’t believe they didn’t grow on trees, takes 3 years and there’s only one. We talk about buying a house with land to grow more of our own food in future but I don’t think I’ll be very good at it.

I’ve just found out that coconut husks can be used as a filter for heavy metals. That’s kind of reassuring to my original concerns.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3X07000988

phikachu wrote:

Thanks for that.

I’ve just found out that coconut husks can be used as a filter for heavy metals. That’s kind of reassuring to my original concerns.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3X07000988

Hummmmmmmmmm Not sure about that, its what's inside the fresh husk you should be worried about & the article does say " carbonized" coconut husks can filter heavy metals, big difference from just husks I think! Activated Carbon is used as a filter in many processes including medical.

Basically just charcoal then 😂

Jlgarbutt wrote:

Basically just charcoal then 😂

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activated_carbon

phikachu wrote:

Thanks for that.


I’ve just found out that coconut husks can be used as a filter for heavy metals. That’s kind of reassuring to my original concerns.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3X07000988

Actually Phikachu you might just have hit on something there as far as treating the agriculture water, certainly and possibly more feasible than RO or EVAP theories muted in the first stages of this thread.

So I presume in Vietnam there are lots of coconut husks going free or at least cheap, lots of stones available, plenty sand  & availability of cheap land to set up a process .

So easy to to set up a big volume but basic Gravel Bed Filtration system.

1st stage mesh strainer to catch all the plastic, vegetation & dead things  before it gets to the Gravel Beds

2nd stage in the process a bed of small round river stones.
3rd stage in the process a bed of even smaller round river stones.
4th stage in the process a bed of smaller gravel.
5th stage in the process a bed of even smaller gravel.
6th stage in the process a bed of coarse river sand.
7th stage in the process a bed of fine river sand.
8th stage in the process a bed of coconut husk activated carbon.

But even this would require a power supply for pumping water to the system, pumping back washing water to clean the beds & pumping the (lets call it dirty back washed  water) back into the river system!!! This power supply could possibly be solar.

As an afterthought & just thinking out loud here ( have absolutely no experience in this field)  I just wonder if the beds could also be used for rearing fish, frogs, fresh water shrimps etc which would sort of contribute to the financial viability of such a system.

phikachu wrote:

I’ve just found out that coconut husks can be used as a filter for heavy metals. That’s kind of reassuring to my original concerns.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3X07000988

I didn't read the link, just want to reply to the term "coconut husks."  You (or the article) probably meant coconut fiber (coir). 

Back in the mid '60s when we lived in District 11 in Saigon, my father built an 18 cubic metre ferrocement rainwater catchment in one corner of our kitchen.  Above it, he installed a 6-layer filtration system, one of which was coconut fiber, or coir. 

Here's my excerpted translation of an article on the subject of using coir in treating wastewater, published on CESTI website in Feb 2013:  Coconut fiber

"Patent US7097768, granted to Pierre Talbot, Denis Pettigrew, Lacasse Roger, Belanger Ginette, Arcand Yves, and Jean Pierre Dautais, referred to the use of coir as a biofilter materials to treat wastewater in Vietnam and the wastewater treatment system using this filter material.

Coco peat works together with coir to form granules of different sizes and shapes (we'll called them coir seeds for convenience sake) as a filter material.  Thanks to the high elasticity, coir seeds are less prone to fracture than natural coir, allowing them to form a tight layer suitable for different types of wastewater with different flow characteristics.  Coir seeds can also filter out bacteria such as coli.

Many types of biofilter media are used for wastewater treatment but none meets all the necessary characteristics.  For example, sand is used to filter domestic wastewater through natural flow, but it's heavy, poor capillary, and subjected to many hydraulic effects while peat has many advantages when compared to sand but has low elasticity and poor stability.  To suit all requirements, coir seeds can be used in combination with filtering materials such as peat, inorganic minerals such as sand, gravel, perlite, geothermal fabric, or polymer.  Such combination would further increase the processing properties of all materials.

The patent indicates that the layer of biofilter should be about 20% to 80% (by weight) of coir seeds, (most suitable is 50%) with other filtering materials making up the rest."

As I stated earlier, I really don’t think bacterial contamination of the water presents a risk to coconut consumption, either flesh or water.  I wasn’t so sure about heavy metals so I did a little light checking and found a few papers.  One is a study focusing on sediments of the lower basin.  Generally speaking, heavy metal deposits are within limits.  http://www.mrcmekong.org/assets/Publica … uality.pdf   Another hypothesized that the dams actually reduced heavy metal contamination in waters downstream as the metals sank to the bottom upstream of the dams.  [abstract only] https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 … 012-0969-3  The only metal that was higher in the lower samples was chromium which may make sense as Vietnam and probably Laos mine chromium.  This element, used in stainless steel, was one of the motivators of both French colonialism and Japanese conquest in WWII.  Also chromium has rather high threshold levels for human toxicity.  Note that these papers tested sediments, which would presumably give higher concentrations than tests of water.

I did find articles on chemical analysis of coconuts for heavy metals.  However these were all location specific and none were from the Vietnamese delta area.  All in all, it does not seem as though heavy metal residues in Vietnamese coconuts is a problem.  Phikachu. you can enjoy your coconuts without fear.

goodolboy wrote:

I

So lets look at Issue 1………….both EVAP & RO can produce drinking water suitable for human consumption but in the situation of Mekong there are problems with water volume produced, power consumption & waste brine production.

RO uses membrane separation of salts & micro solids from the water under high pressure & is a lot less mechanically complicated but requires more power supply to work efficiently. A typical ships RO unit will require aux power supply for a pre filtration unit, HP water pump, brine pump, chemical injection pump, & controls. The fresh water produced on a 24 hours average was between 60 to 70 MT & that was enough for a ships compliment of between 120 to 150 persons. RO units are less maint intensive (down time) but are & can be quite expensive to run taken over a 1 year cycle normal replacement of membrane, pumps chemicals etc would be in excess of 10,000usd. for a quite small production in volume unit supplying 150 people.

As a matter of interest just spotted on VN Express this Reverse Osmosis unit (one of 24 it says)  installed for supplying drinking water in Ben Tre.


https://video.vnexpress.net/tin-tuc/tho … 00032.html

Soem newer apartments have this tech in the kitchens. I looked at one in Centara, and it came with reverse osmosis.

Downside is the water comes out quite warm, so have to chill it.
Also meams no more trips to local shop to orde bottled water.. girl who runs the shop is very friendly 😊

Jlgarbutt wrote:

Also meams no more trips to local shop to orde bottled water.. girl who runs the shop is very friendly 😊

The water supplier delivers to our house for the same price as bought in store.

Ours delivers them also.. but can order in store or via phone.

SteinNebraska wrote:

Jlgarbutt wrote:

Also meams no more trips to local shop to orde bottled water.. girl who runs the shop is very friendly 😊

The water supplier delivers to our house for the same price as bought in store.

Minus a smile from the pretty girl.

Pretty girl and smile makes it worth going out in the heat