General assistance in moving

Hi Benjamin Coetzee,

Welcome to Expat.com and thank you for your detailed post. 

As you wish to move to Italy, i would first of all advise you to go through the living in Italy expat guide, it will definitely give you some starting information on the procedures that you need to undertake.
You will also find a dedicated article on the italian labour market in the same guide as well as an interesting article  on starting a business in Italy.
You may also get in touch with the embassy of Italy in South Africa for further information.

I also hope that some south Africans will get back to you very soon. 

When are you planning to move ?
Have you been to Italy before?

Hoping to hear from you soon,

Priscilla
Expat.com Team 

I do wish you much good luck.  I myself have been delayed in making any moves other than learning as much as possible, yes - due to Covid 19.
Please keep us informed.

Hi there Priscilla,

Thank-you very much for your reply, I have found the information you provided very helpful!

To answer your questions:

1.) I have not been to Italy before at all.  I know that is it best to check a place out before one moves, but when I look at the Italian friends I have, how they are as a people, I know it is the right decision.  It is as if I have family there.

2.) My heart will tell you that I want to move there yesterday.  But logically and realistically I think this will be a five year plan.  There are things I must do in preparation first and financing such a move will take time.

Once again, thank-you very much and I hope to converse some time again.

Kind regards,
Benjamin

Hi there,

Thank-you for your well-wishes!

I will definitely keep you updated and likewise, please let me know if you make a breakthrough.

Go well,
Benjamin

It sounds as if you want to set up an agriturismo - with guests and providing products grown on the farm.  Its not as simple as that unfortunately.  You will probably have to set up an an 'azienda agricola' which is a farm business,  or become a 'coltivatore diretto' which is a single farmer.  There are distinct rules on which and how many animals you can have.   You will need the help of an agronomo who can help you with the red tape and navigate the rules, as well as possible incentives you may be eligible for.

We have been there and done that as an agritourismo and as it has been said it is complicated. There are rules on how much PRODUCTIVE land you must own, ( in our comune location a minimum of 10 hectares is needed for arable use, or 5ha with 2 horses for riding, or goats, sheep for milk or 300 olive trees for oil and so on ( depending on your location) and an annual report the harvest annually to the Coldireti, plus registration of all equipment used, so if you end up in hospital after an accident with a chainsaw they  will cover you only if it is on the list.  The paperwork is never ending as is the time spent sitting and waiting to see the officer, which has quadrupled in these times, an accountant and tourism  officials are necessary.
Also be aware if you provide meals the insurance and legislation is astonishing, in case you poison anyone or they sue out of malice! Naturally public liability insurance is required in case someone has an accident while staying or working on your property.
We suspect from your email you wont be able to invest the time or the money in such an ambitious project initially. What you may consider is a smaller project with less land and obligations?
A B&B with 3 renting rooms ( in our location 3 rooms per manager is the maximum allowed), self catering, and sell your home grown produce at a local market. Honey and bees wax production takes little land and is very popular and has a very good price for example.
Be careful and ask the comune and Coldiretti before you  commit yourself.
Good luck
Marguerite

Hi Modicasa,

I appreciate the information you've provided!

It definitely sounds more complicated than I thought.  Here in South Africa, things aren't so tough, red-tape wise.

I would like to ask you, based on this information, if one were to then leave tourism out of one's farming activities, do the rules change regarding how many animals or space one may own?  And also, I assume that registering as a single farmer is easier than setting up a farm business?

Kind regards,
Benjamin

Hi there Marguerite,

Thank-you for sharing your personal experience and for the information!

It seems very tough indeed to mix agriculture and tourism - something I find more fluid here in South Africa.

What I'd like to ask you is similar to what I asked Modicasa above and that is: do the rules change if you leave tourism out of your farming activities?  If you wanted to own a parcel of land just for production and selling to a local market, is the process easier?

Secondly, I do enjoy the suggestion of setting up a self-catering unit and doing something like beekeeping.  I am open to ideas from people who've tried them!  Is it possible to run two separate ventures, first setting up a BnB, and then running a small farm when feasible?  I would like to avoid mixing tourism and farming if the red-tape is too much to cut through.
At the end of the day, I want to take the route that will provide for my family and me, but, I also want to have my own farm.

Kind regards,
Benjamin

Sorry I may have complicated matters. The big issue is the Agritouismo label which has lots of legislation as it is subsided by the government so naturally there are lots of checks and conditions to comply with.

Tourism is fairy easy, you register with the local comune and tourist office, a health and safety officer must inspect the premises to ensure they are up to standard and safe and you have the requisite insurances and certificates for the electric wiring etc. If you have a pool for guests it must be tested as must well water as many countryside houses do not have mains water. It still entails a lot of office waiting around and waiting for officials so plan at least a year to get everything in place. Airb&b and the like is a different matter perhaps, we never used them, but the tax office is watching on line sites carefully.

If you want to farm it is sensible to join the Coldretti ( a farmers union) as they will help with all the necessary paperwork and as a member you can get insurance and they will do your tax returns for a small fee etc. They can inform you when bonfires are permitted or forbidden, hunting season usually 1st Sept to end Feb but each region has its own rules. We live in a Bio area where great emphasis is given to no pesticides on crops and its lovely to see fields of corm with lots of poppies and butterflies. They use the 3 crop rotation system and grow beans that they plough back in to add nitrogen, its a lot of hard work.

Tree felling for wood fires must be done with the permission of the forestali police and they have guns too, only once every 18-20 years if clearing large areas but being selective, no hillside stripping permitted and you must have the right insurance. Permission to fell umbrella pines, oaks, cypresses and olives is almost impossible to get  unless diseased and a danger. Felling a dead or clearing fallen tees is a different matter of course.
Be aware Italy does not have trespass rules, hunters and walkers can roam freely across your land unless you get permission to fence, due to breeding pheasant for example or protecting crops from boar , deer and porcupines, a real problem in our location and the saffron farmers get permission easily.

At our local market we often see farmers with apes selling excess foods out of the flat bed and several place have their own fresh produce stalls by the road side, so lots of opportunity.

Hope this is more encouraging
Ciao Marguerite

Yes, if you opt for 'turismo rurale' things are much easier - you will need a minimum of 2 ha in most places. 

What animals you can have is set by the province so is not a national guideline.    For example where i live I can have a couple of pigs,goats and sheep, but no larger animals except a donkey.

Hi there Marguerite,

Thanks again for your reply, it cleared things up and it was definitely encouraging.  I've got a good direction now in which to focus my research and planning.

I would like to ask you two more questions on this matter if I may.
Firstly, did you have to become a resident before you opened your business or was your business something that was concurrent with all the other facets of moving to Italy.  The reason I ask is because I see that one can only obtain permanent residency after 5 years in Italy.

And secondly, what did you register your business as?  Was it like a sole-proprietor limited or something else?  And how how much did the registering process cost you in this regard?

Kind regards!

Hi Modicasa,

Thanks very much for the clarification, much appreciated!

Kind regards!

Apologies for the delay in responding I didn't get a message notification.
We bought the property as an 'agritourismo' designated as an S.A.S ( society agricultural  Simple for several share holders) with IVA ( vat) license which the previous owner set up.  It was while at the Coldiretti who were sorting out some paperwork they said as a couple this type of Limited company was not appropriate and had us change it through a notary and the accountants to an S.S ( simple society) with my husband as the principal and I as a dependent so only he paid national insurance contributions and fees, also this meant only he was responsible for taxes etc even though the property is in both our names. It saved us in the long term on accountancy fees and other things. There are other company designations like SRL for very large concerns.
I cannot recall the costs but the Coldiretti are there to ensure even the simplest person ( believe me we had no knowledge of anything) we were not taken advantage of, things were explained and paperwork done so we did not trip up. There is an annual membership fee of around 70 euros, its may be more now, and a paperwork fee, perhaps 45 euros and if a tax Bollo ( a stamp bought at the newsagents) is needed they range from 16 to 46 euros depending on what government for it is for. Agricultural businesses get all sorts of intensives and help and the will steer you to them and help, but don't expect speed you will be asked to return and see other officers and transport paperwork between them. They do not discriminate everyone has to sit and wait their turn Its a much slower pace of life so go with the flow.
Notary's are  regulated by the government an have fixed fees for every task, so you cannot be over charged if you ask in advance. Often the charges are available on government websites, as are the legislative tax charges, consultancy is a different matter
It is regulation that you register as a resident is you are in a county for 6 consecutive months this could e done at the post office but with Covid-19 I think the Questura has again taken over this paperwork,. Then after 5 years you simply take your residency paperwork to the post office fill in another form and get a bollo for the 'permanent' permission to stay.
As a resident the vat on electric is 10% not 22% ( 3 phase you pay delivery of the electric on each phase, i.e 3x a single line, this charge is dependent of what you use, electric bills are difficult but with a single 3kw line say we use 25euro of electric add, the delivery, taxes, tv licence fee of 9 a month -they added it to the electric as people declined to pay otherwise- and its 56 euros plus to pay). 6kw more than doubles the charge per kwh, 9kw is frightening! Put up a wind turbine and use solar power 

Don't give up, be creative there were a couple of people milking donkeys and distilling lavender oil to make skin cream locally and doing very well and saffron is another product that grows here, ever tried saffron beer? They are very inventive!
Ciao
Marguerite

Hi there Marguerite,

I really appreciate all this information, it's really been a great help, and thank-you for your encouraging words.

I've got a lot of planning to do but you've definitely given me a direction in which to think and move.

I wish you and your husband all the best in your ventures in Italy!

Kind regards,
Benjamin

Hi Benjamin,

We spent a year in Italy and I grew vegetables and it was a wonderful year. We have been back in SA the past few years (Cape Town) for personal reasons but now are free (Covid permitting) to return to live there permanently and we also want to set up a homestead/smallholding. It is very complicated to do things in Italy compared to SA where you can basically buy a piece of land and do what you want. In Italy you can't even buy a mini tractor without being registered for VAT as an agricultural concern. I found your question while trying to understand the requirements for registering as a Coltivatore Diretto (I want a tractor )

Let me know if you want to talk.

@M Hunt

Hi is it possible for us  to write   eachother? You seem extremly knowlegable in the sector and i really need some help.

king regards,

marie

@M Hunt

Good Morning,

@kngladli

are you margerite?

Marguerite?

Greetings Marie, I am Marguerite, do you have a question for me?

Regards

M Hunt

@mafabia8

Hi Marie,

You can email me at: *** and I will do my best to answer the questions you may have,

Regards

Marguerite

@M Hunt

Thank you for getting back to me .

i just emailed you

Regards,

Marie