Vietnamese Mother in Vietnam and British Father - English baby Name?

I'm not 100% sure but believe the child must have a Vietnamese name to have a VM passport..

Not an acceptable answer LOL

Ciambella wrote:

I believe Vietnamese law dictates that in order to have a full foreign name (without Vietnamese first name), the baby must be registered as Vietnamese citizen first.  If not, s/he will be considered a foreigner who applies for Vietnamese citizenship, and s/he must have a Vietnamese first name.

This is what I posted a while ago about naming a child born to a foreigner and a Vietnamese spouse:

"According to Minh Gia Law Firm in Hanoi and Hoang Phi Law Firm in Saigon, if the child acquires a foreign citizenship first, then the parents must apply for Vietnamese citizenship as if the child is a foreigner even though s/he is born to a Vietnamese parent and in a Vietnamese hospital. 

In doing so, the birth certificate must include a Vietnamese name because any foreigner who applies for Vietnamese citizenship must be called officially by his/her VIetnamese name.  OTOH, if the parents choose to give the child Vietnamese citizenship at birth (a written agreement between the parents is required), then the child, a native born, can have his/her full name in any language as long as it's written in Roman alphabets. 

As there is more hassle applying for Vietnamese citizenship than a foreign one, it's advisable to have Vietnamese citizenship first."

Originally, it was the answer to an American father, but if the father isn't American but Australian, Norwegian, or Japanese, the Vietnamese law regarding the naming of the child is still the same, I would think.

If you don't mind that your child will carry a Vietnamese first name for the rest of his/her life, then the order of the citizenship doesn't matter, but make sure the name is something his/her English-speaking friends can pronounce and it doesn't have a negative connotation in English language.  Children (and adults too) can be cruel when it comes to teasing and taunting (my personal experience.)

I wonder if anyone achieved this?

For more info. I have not yet registered the birth with the Authorities. So, we are fresh.

My VN Niece just went off to see what the Authorities say on the first visit. I will update it here.

You already quoted my past answer above, which unfortunately is no longer 100% accurate, so this is the newest law as written, extracted, and translated:

"According to Clause 1, Article 4 of Decree No. 123/2015 / ND-CP dated November 15, 2015, modified and passed by the XIII National Assembly during the 10th session held on November 24, 2015, effective January 1, 2017, the child's surname is defined as the biological father's or mother's surname as agreed by the parents. The Civil Code also dictated that the name of Vietnamese citizen must be in Vietnamese or another Vietnamese language and cannot include numbers or characters that are not letters.  Therefore, if the child is registered as Vietnamese nationality, his last name can be the father's last name but the first and middle name must be Vietnamese."

As with many other Vietnamese who have dual citizenship, you can change your son's name when registering with your Consulate as a UK citizen, but his birth certificate will stay as dictated by the law here.  Eventually, you can apply for two passports on his behalf -- one with full English name, the other with Vietnamese first name and English surname.  All you need is an official document to show that both names belong to the same person.  That's where aka comes in.

iternfic wrote:

Yes, I am Australian, my wife is Vietnamese, and my daughter was born in Vietnam just over 4 years ago. She has has a full English name which was my wife's preference. It is on her Vietnamese birth certificate and Vietnamese passport. We followed the applicable registration process at the time which included a face-to-face meeting with the registrant. A year or so later I obtained Australian citizenship for her followed by her Australian passport. It seems the application of the different laws does vary by province and that may have been a factor as we do not live in Ho Chi Minh or Hanoi.

It's more than likely the reason you were able to give your daughter a full English name was her birth date: she was born before the new law came into effect on Jan 1, 2017.

SongwriterUK wrote:

I do not want him to have an official name and an unofficial name. I want him to be VN (he can become UK citizen later) I want him to get the best of all Worlds.

So? Anybody achieved this?

A young friend of mine here in VT and her English husband have a 2 year old son.  On the birth certificate, he has Vietnamese name and English surname.  On the registration with the UK Consulate, he shares his name with his father (they also share a birthday).  Both of his names are official.  Anthony II is his legal English name and that's what on his birthday cake today (a small one, dad has the larger one.)

SongwriterUK wrote:

My father just died and I would like to give him his name, not a VN one.

I am assuming it is not a secret.  Can you tell us your father's given name?  Although you may have strong sentimental motivation to use his name, you might want to be sure his name is pronounceable by Vietnamese.

If you go with a Vietnamese middle name, which might be useful if he goes to school in Vietnam, you still need to avoid names that are difficult for English speakers to pronounce, and as Ciambella alluded to, you need avoid names with accidental off color meanings in English .

Ciambella wrote:

"Therefore, if the child is registered as Vietnamese nationality, his last name can be the father's last name but the first and middle name must be Vietnamese.".....
....All you need is an official document to show that both names belong to the same person.

It sounds like if you really want your son to have his grandfather's given name, you will have to consign him to a lifetime of having to carry around a notarized paper explaining why his two passports don't match.

"Dad, why did you do that to me?"

If you have two passports with two different names how do you purchase a round trip airline ticket to VN and your home country?  Since the passport of entry into that country needs to match the passport being used to enter said country doesn't it pose a problem?  THere must be a way around it as it's common but I really don't know.

THIGV wrote:

It sounds like if you really want your son to have his grandfather's given name, you will have to consign him to a lifetime of having to carry around a notarized paper explaining why his two passports don't match.

Not really.  When the child is in the UK, he only needs IDs issued from the UK with English name, there's no reason to show his Vietnamese passport.  When he's in VN, he'll be known legally by his Vietnamese name, and the only time he would need to provide the proof that both names belong to him is when a legal matter demands it.

Moreoever, his two passports CAN be matched.  My explanation is in the reply to SteinNebraska below.

SteinNebraska wrote:

If you have two passports with two different names how do you purchase a round trip airline ticket to VN and your home country?  Since the passport of entry into that country needs to match the passport being used to enter said country doesn't it pose a problem?

For UK and Vietnamese dual passport holders:

Paragraphs 6.5, 6.6, and 6.7 under heading "Exceptions" of Annex A "Use of Names in Passport", Passport Policy issued by the Home Office on Aug 16, 2016 indicates that:

6.5  There are individual categories of applicant who may experience restrictions on their ability to meet the identity requirements of one name for all official purposes. These are primarily people who have dual nationality and who hold, have held or can obtain in the future a passport issued by another country.

6.6  Subject to the applicant being able to satisfy the following requirements, a passport may be issued in the name requested even where it differs from the name on the passport issued by another country. The following categories may be given exceptional consideration:

i.   The law in the applicant's country of origin restricts or prevents a change of name. Where there is such a restriction, the applicant will be required to provide evidence from their country of origin that a change of name is not permissible;

[snip]

6.7  In the case of points (i) above, a British passport may be issued and an observation placed in the passport saying:  “The holder has a [country] passport, number [ ] issued on [date] in the name of [ ]. This passport is due to expire on [date].”

There you go.  I doubt the Vietnamese government allows such observation in their passport, so in the case of SongwriterUK:

- when applying for a UK passport on his son's behalf, he should ask that the above mentioned observation is included in the passport.

- when buying airline tickets for his son in the future, he should use the English name as shown in the UK passport even when he uses the Vietnamese passport to enter and exit the country.

While we're at it, for US and Vietnamese dual passport holders, the US Embassy in Japan says:

"We believe that there will be no particular issue traveling with different names on the U.S. passport and foreign passport, but please make sure to bring both valid passports when traveling to the United States. We also recommend you [to] consult with the airline you are using in advance."

Hmmm

"3. Naming is restricted in the case of violation of legitimate rights and interests of other persons, or inconsistency with the basic principles of civil law prescribed in article 3 of this Code.

Names of Vietnamese citizens must be in Vietnamese or another ethnic language of Vietnam; and shall not be a number or a non-letter character."

Says no to English name ...

By the way ... it is only David.

We have been calling my son David for a long time now ... inside mummy and out. I do not want him to be called anything else.

It's just a ridiculous situation.

He is currently a citizen of nowhere. That cannot go on for any length of time.

2 things to do.

1. He will be just British only and have to be the only newborn doing visa runs.
2. Call him some name that means nothing to anyone except a typist at the registry.

I am a bit angry I must say.

SongwriterUK wrote:

He is currently a citizen of nowhere. That cannot go on for any length of time.

2 things to do.

1. He will be just British only and have to be the only newborn doing visa runs.
2. Call him some name that means nothing to anyone except a typist at the registry.

I am a bit angry I must say.

Are you saying that he has no other Vietnamese family other than his mother?

No relative in Vietnam will care about his name?

No Vietnamese grandparents?

Did your wife agree to the idea of calling him David?

Because I have to assume that was your suggestion.

A strong suggestion?

And I apologize if I sound insensitive.

31 years ago my son's mother made a unilateral decision to name our son (born out of wedlock) using her last name.

So I have empathy for the situation you're in with the government here.

My wife loves the name. The whole VN family all know him as David.

I don't think some posters are getting this. He IS David. Not Phuong Trang Nguyen, or something.

His University degree, his police / government reports, his driving license will have somebody else's name.

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

And I apologize if I sound insensitive.

No need. It is hard to understand outside of the situation.

SongwriterUK wrote:

I don't think some posters are getting this. He IS David. Not Phuong Trang Nguyen, or something.

His University degree, his police / government reports, his driving license will have somebody else's name.

No, they will not.

He'll attend uni in the UK because no one in the right mind will settle for an inferior education system when a much better one is available.  Even before uni, he'll probably attend high school in the UK, not in VN, to prepare himself for the rigorous university admissions tests. 

All of his education degree will show his name as David.  He'll register to vote as David.  His driving licence will show the name David.  When he buys a house in the UK, the HM Land Registry will show David as the owner. 

Aside from the Vietnamese government, the entire world will know him as David because that's his legal name on his UK passport and all of his IDs except in the Vietnamese family book.  Unless he wants to marry a Vietnamese national and the ceremony is held in Vietnam, his marriage licence will show David as the husband.  Above all, doesn't matter where and whom he marries, his wife will carry his English last name unless they both agree otherwise.  He'll never a Nguyen, Tran, or Le.

Don't think of this as an upsetting situation because it's not.  Your son will know his Vietnamese roots, but the chance that he'll live full time in VN as an adult is slim.  He'll be an Englishman who has a second home and many relatives in another country.  He'll speak Vietnamese fluently during childhood but will lose some of it eventually when he moves to the UK to live.  He'll be like most of Overseas Vietnamese who have Vietnamese roots but are not truly Vietnamese in spite of their birth certificates.

David is his official name.  The Vietnamese name on his birth certificate is also his official name.  He doesn't have to choose between the two; he can be both although the Vietnamese influence will be smaller and the Vietnamese name will be used less often the older he becomes.

Ciambella wrote:

SongwriterUK wrote:

I don't think some posters are getting this. He IS David. Not Phuong Trang Nguyen, or something.

His University degree, his police / government reports, his driving license will have somebody else's name.

No, they will not.

He'll attend uni in the UK because no one in the right mind will settle for an inferior education system when a much better one is available.  Even before uni, he'll probably attend high school in the UK, not in VN, to prepare himself for the rigorous university admissions tests. 

All of his education degree will show his name as David.  He'll register to vote as David.  His driving licence will show the name David.  When he buys a house in the UK, the HM Land Registry will show David as the owner. 

Aside from the Vietnamese government, the entire world will know him as David because that's his legal name on his UK passport and all of his IDs except in the Vietnamese family book.  Unless he wants to marry a Vietnamese national and the ceremony is held in Vietnam, his marriage licence will show David as the husband.  Above all, doesn't matter where and whom he marries, his wife will carry his English last name unless they both agree otherwise.  He'll never a Nguyen, Tran, or Le.

Don't think of this as an upsetting situation because it's not.  Your son will know his Vietnamese roots, but the chance that he'll live full time in VN as an adult is slim.  He'll be an Englishman who has a second home and many relatives in another country.  He'll speak Vietnamese fluently during childhood but will lose some of it eventually when he moves to the UK to live.  He'll be like most of Overseas Vietnamese who have Vietnamese roots but are not truly Vietnamese in spite of their birth certificates.

David is his official name.  The Vietnamese name on his birth certificate is also his official name.  He doesn't have to choose between the two; he can be both although the Vietnamese influence will be smaller and the Vietnamese name will be used less often the older he becomes.

Sorry, not correct.

We live here. I cannot register him as his English name in the UK  ... he was not born in the UK. He was born here in VN.

In order to get a birth certificate in VN he must have a VN name. Unless a new law was just passed (please God).

Without that VN birth certificate, he will not be able to register with the UK authorities.

He will then be registered in the UK as his VN name. Because it will be the only birth certificate he will have.

Yes, he will be British but with a VN name.

https://www.gov.uk/register-a-birth

Register a birth abroad

You must register your child's birth according to the regulations in the country where the child was born. They'll give you a local birth certificate.

This local birth certificate should be accepted in the UK, for example when you apply for a passport or register with a school or doctor. You might need to have it translated and certified if it is not in English.

Unfortunately

However, a long-winded way of doing it would be to change his name once he is registered in the UK (in his VN name). Change it to David.

https://www.deedpoll.org.uk/can-i-chang … ilds-name/

A tremendous waste of time, but here we are.

I do hope I am completely wrong about this ... I might be missing something in the process.

I WANT to be wrong.

SongwriterUK wrote:

Sorry, not correct.

We live here. I cannot register him as his English name in the UK  ... he was not born in the UK. He was born here in VN.

In order to get a birth certificate in VN he must have a VN name. Unless a new law was just passed (please God).

Without that VN birth certificate, he will not be able to register with the UK authorities.

He will then be registered in the UK as his VN name. Because it will be the only birth certificate he will have.

Yes, he will be British but with a VN name.

I can't claim to understand UK law, but a child born abroad to a US citizen doesn't have to be registered in the US, just at the US Consulate in that country.

A Consular Report of Birth Abroad is the requirement to claim the child as US citizen.  Naturally, CRBA requires a birth certificate, and on the birth certificate in VN, there's a section to indicate the child's nationality. 

Because one of the parents is Vietnamese, by VN law both must agree on the child's nationality.  If they agree on the foreign nationality, the father can write "US" on that section.  Saying the child is American doesn't make it so because CRBA is the next step, it only means that the child will not automatically have Vietnamese nationality thus a Vietnamese name is not required.

After the child is acknowledged by the US Consulate as a US citizen, the Vietnamese parent can register for his Vietnamese nationality.  He MAY be required to have a Vietnamese name for the citizenship.  IF he must change name, that name is acknowledged ONLY by the Vietnamese government.  To the world at large, he's an American with American name.

If we want him to be Vietnamese, he needs a VN name. 100%. Nothing we can do. I wish it was otherwise.

But, yes, if we don't mind him having to get a TRC at 3 months old, he can be a foreigner living in Vietnam.

That is it.

To be Vietnamese = VN name no way around it.
Foreign = any name but TRC required. Never a Vietnamese citizen. Though he lives here.

If the UK or USA tried this (to make everyone have a Christian name for example) ... there would be mass riots, civil unrest, huge downgrades of our economies.

Imagine trying to get the Jewish, African, Islamic, Chinese communities to change their names? It is untenable ... and rightly so.

There are so many great reasons to live in Vietnam. This is not one of them.

SongwriterUK wrote:

If the UK or USA tried this (to make everyone have a Christian name for example) ... there would be mass riots, civil unrest, huge downgrades of our economies.

Imagine trying to get the Jewish, African, Islamic, Chinese communities to change their names? It is untenable ... and rightly so.

There are so many great reasons to live in Vietnam. This is not one of them.

It is for the Vietnamese...

SongwriterUK wrote:

If we want him to be Vietnamese, he needs a VN name. 100%. Nothing we can do. I wish it was otherwise.

And you wouldn't want him to have two names, the English name on UK passport and Vietnamese name on Vietnamese passport?

There are probably a few million people in the world who have different names on different passports.  People whose names are not written in Roman alphabets.  Celebrities.  Authors.  Spies.  Undercover law enforcement.

For people who are looking to get current information who might read this post. Here are the concluding facts (as of 2020).

Vietnamese citizens (from VN parents or mix) must have a Vietnamese name. Whether a newborn baby born here in VN or an adult wishing to become a Vietnamese citizen.

For babies of one foreign parent and one Vietnamese parent, if you wish them to have an English or any other non-Vietnamese name the child will need to have 2 identities. One with your home country and one here in Vietnam. The identity here in Vietnam will be in their Vietnamese name only.

Your son or daughter will go to school or University in Vietnam in their VN name. They will drive, pay tax, etc in their VN name.

Once you have registered your child in the old country (in their Vietnamese name since that is on the only name on the birth certificate), you can then change their name by Deed Poll or similar to the non-Vietnamese name. Of course, that is entirely up to you. Not needed.

SongwriterUK wrote:

But, yes, if we don't mind him having to get a TRC at 3 months old, he can be a foreigner living in Vietnam.

Have you considered that there may be a situation where despite holding a TRC, you and he are forced to leave the country and his mother is forced to stay?  This could be through no fault of yours or his, such as war with a third nation.  This could be a long shot but not inconceivable (look North.)

THIGV wrote:

SongwriterUK wrote:

But, yes, if we don't mind him having to get a TRC at 3 months old, he can be a foreigner living in Vietnam.

Have you considered that there may be a situation where despite holding a TRC, you and he are forced to leave the country and his mother is forced to stay?  This could be through no fault of yours or his, such as war with a third nation.  This could be a long shot but not inconceivable (look North.)

Oh, it is not a sustainable situation ... I totally agree.

He has to be Vietnamese. So, he has to have a VN name.

Outside VN is a different matter. That is to be decided.

I don't know about UK; but in the US when the child turns 18, he can legally change his name in court.
Of course until then his name is still in Vietnamese on all legal documents.

My legal name is in Vietnamese and it's on all legal documents; but all my life, no one in schools or at work called me by my Vietnamese name.
In schools, they called me by my Christian name and at work they called me by my American name. So, you see, I have 3 names but the other 2 are not legal!

May be this is one way to do it with your son. Leave his Vietnamese name on all his documents. In the meantime, you call him David at home, in schools, with friends..... until he reaches 18, then you can change his name to be in English in UK by submitting  your application for name change in the British court while still keeping his Vietnamese name on his VN documents and VN passport.

I hope this makes you feel better.

In the UK you can change your name at any time. $50 and it's done.

So, yes, that is an option. It is all a needless pain in the 'arris though.

My daughter has a western name, and of course, her mom is VN and I'm western. She has VN passport and western also with no problem....I see no problem for you to do the same

Kitosan wrote:

My daughter has a western name, and of course, her mom is VN and I'm western. She has VN passport and western also with no problem....I see no problem for you to do the same

How old is she?

she's now 19 years old..but her western name was from day 1 !!

Yeah, I am a teacher and there are many students at my school with mixed foreign / Vietnamese names.

But that has all changed.

The state of play as of today.

Article 26 of the Vietnam civil code.

3. The naming is restricted in case it violates lawful rights and interests of other people and contravenes basic principles of civil law prescribed in Article 3 of this Code.

The name of each Vietnamese citizen must be in Vietnamese or other ethnic minority languages of Vietnam and not include any figure or any symbol other than a letter.