Em oi.... What The Heo
Encountered such situation yesterday during my diner.
As usual, almost daily frequenting this bun cha joint run by end 40's lady, sitting on a small little stool and table, munching my food while observing views that pleasuring my eyes, flushing my throat with bia hoi... how wonderful can it be right. Well after flicking and adjusting the "tam" couple of time, it's time to move... and this is where the rude awakening started.
Getting used to "em oi", I started uttering "em oi... toi an mot suat bun cha, bao nhieu tien?". To my dismay, the lady start grumbling as though as she woke up from wrong side of the bed that day. Sensing something amiss, lucky with my colleague accompanied, get him to translate what is going on. With him as intermediate, cross words like how old are you is the source that triggered her dis-pleasure.
Now the question is that who to distinguish when to use what?
To my understanding, there are different categories in addressing female:
- Cu / Ba ( grandmother or someone is more than 60s )
- Bac / Co ( age group between 50s to 60 )
- Chi ( between 40s to 50s )
- Em ( majority no group age ) - depending on how old I am to address.
When I'm in Saigon, pretty confident that addressing any ladies by "em oi" will be perfectly correct unless you could see that she is old enough to be "ba". In facts all ladies here preferred to be called "em". Unfortunately in Hai Phong, addressing any lady needed some rocket science experiment before uttering the salutation. How I wish that it could be as simple as Auntie and or Uncle or Sir and or Madam.
Ending the "dispute", xin loi nhe spontaneously spill out from my mouth and continue with toi hieu roi... "chi" oi... vang vang. She know that I am a foreigner and by acting smart aleck... she confidently said "What The Heo" which I laugh all the way back home.
Troi oi... will patronise her joint today to see her reaction.
p/s: btw... I am same age as her as well.
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1
Encountered such situation yesterday during my diner.As usual, almost daily frequenting this bun cha joint run by end 40's lady, sitting on a small little stool and table, munching my food while observing views that pleasuring my eyes, flushing my throat with bia hoi... how wonderful can it be right. Well after flicking and adjusting the "tam" couple of time, it's time to move... and this is where the rude awakening started.Getting used to "em oi", I started uttering "em oi... toi an mot suat bun cha, bao nhieu tien?". To my dismay, the lady start grumbling as though as she woke up from wrong side of the bed that day. Sensing something amiss, lucky with my colleague accompanied, get him to translate what is going on. With him as intermediate, cross words like how old are you is the source that triggered her dis-pleasure.Now the question is that who to distinguish when to use what?To my understanding, there are different categories in addressing female:- Cu / Ba ( grandmother or someone is more than 60s )- Bac / Co ( age group between 50s to 60 )- Chi ( between 40s to 50s )- Em ( majority no group age ) - depending on how old I am to address.When I'm in Saigon, pretty confident that addressing any ladies by "em oi" will be perfectly correct unless you could see that she is old enough to be "ba". In facts all ladies here preferred to be called "em". Unfortunately in Hai Phong, addressing any lady needed some rocket science experiment before uttering the salutation. How I wish that it could be as simple as Auntie and or Uncle or Sir and or Madam.Ending the "dispute", xin loi nhe spontaneously spill out from my mouth and continue with toi hieu roi... "chi" oi... vang vang. She know that I am a foreigner and by acting smart aleck... she confidently said "What The Heo" which I laugh all the way back home.Troi oi... will patronise her joint today to see her reaction.p/s: btw... I am same age as her as well.- @alexneoh
Maybe it was that time of the month
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1
As I have been instructed, one doesn't tie pronouns to ages. Pronoun choice is relative to your age.
My wife's older sister, I must call chi (like "jee" rising). Older sister. It doesn't matter than she is 10 years younger than me. It's complicated. Because chi also carries respect, and she is the oldest in the family. An Asian thing.
So a woman around your age is chi because she will appreciate that you are conveying respect. Opposite in the US where women's heads explode if you infer they are older.
Anh is older brother. I use that for taxi drivers unless they are real young. Respect trumping age.
Em is younger brother or younger sister. Like waiters. Con ("gong") is kid . I don't use others.
[ I will gladly accept corrections. Vietnamese Pronoun Law is full of special cases. ]
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1As I have been instructed, one doesn't tie pronouns to ages. Pronoun choice is relative to your age.My wife's older sister, I must call chi (like "jee" rising). Older sister. It doesn't matter than she is 10 years younger than me. It's complicated. Because chi also carries respect, and she is the oldest in the family. An Asian thing.So a woman around your age is chi because she will appreciate that you are conveying respect. Opposite in the US where women's heads explode if you infer they are older.Anh is older brother. I use that for taxi drivers unless they are real young. Respect trumping age.Em is younger brother or younger sister. Like waiters. Con ("gong") is kid . I don't use others.[ I will gladly accept corrections. Vietnamese Pronoun Law is full of special cases. ]- @gobot
If the woman is slightly younger(how the hell can you know) call her em. It should inflate her ego that you happen to think she looks young.
This woman sounds like a cranky middle aged woman, I would just ignore her or take your business elsewhere.
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I think it's out of politeness that you call some one Chi or Anh. I've had many people who are older than me called me Anh, especially if they don't know me or have just met me. I in return call them Anh or Chi. Unless you know the person or they are much younger than you, it's polite just to call them Anh or Chi.
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Encountered such situation yesterday during my diner.As usual, almost daily frequenting this bun cha joint run by end 40's lady, sitting on a small little stool and table, munching my food while observing views that pleasuring my eyes, flushing my throat with bia hoi... how wonderful can it be right. Well after flicking and adjusting the "tam" couple of time, it's time to move... and this is where the rude awakening started.Getting used to "em oi", I started uttering "em oi... toi an mot suat bun cha, bao nhieu tien?". To my dismay, the lady start grumbling as though as she woke up from wrong side of the bed that day. Sensing something amiss, lucky with my colleague accompanied, get him to translate what is going on. With him as intermediate, cross words like how old are you is the source that triggered her dis-pleasure.Now the question is that who to distinguish when to use what?To my understanding, there are different categories in addressing female:- Cu / Ba ( grandmother or someone is more than 60s )- Bac / Co ( age group between 50s to 60 )- Chi ( between 40s to 50s )- Em ( majority no group age ) - depending on how old I am to address.When I'm in Saigon, pretty confident that addressing any ladies by "em oi" will be perfectly correct unless you could see that she is old enough to be "ba". In facts all ladies here preferred to be called "em". Unfortunately in Hai Phong, addressing any lady needed some rocket science experiment before uttering the salutation. How I wish that it could be as simple as Auntie and or Uncle or Sir and or Madam.Ending the "dispute", xin loi nhe spontaneously spill out from my mouth and continue with toi hieu roi... "chi" oi... vang vang. She know that I am a foreigner and by acting smart aleck... she confidently said "What The Heo" which I laugh all the way back home.Troi oi... will patronise her joint today to see her reaction.p/s: btw... I am same age as her as well.- @alexneoh
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- Bác is older than your parents , cô is younger than your parents- @Vitamin_ Cụ / bà is older than you 40 years old ( come up again)Encountered such situation yesterday during my diner.As usual, almost daily frequenting this bun cha joint run by end 40's lady, sitting on a small little stool and table, munching my food while observing views that pleasuring my eyes, flushing my throat with bia hoi... how wonderful can it be right. Well after flicking and adjusting the "tam" couple of time, it's time to move... and this is where the rude awakening started.Getting used to "em oi", I started uttering "em oi... toi an mot suat bun cha, bao nhieu tien?". To my dismay, the lady start grumbling as though as she woke up from wrong side of the bed that day. Sensing something amiss, lucky with my colleague accompanied, get him to translate what is going on. With him as intermediate, cross words like how old are you is the source that triggered her dis-pleasure.Now the question is that who to distinguish when to use what?To my understanding, there are different categories in addressing female:- Cu / Ba ( grandmother or someone is more than 60s )- Bac / Co ( age group between 50s to 60 )- Chi ( between 40s to 50s )- Em ( majority no group age ) - depending on how old I am to address.When I'm in Saigon, pretty confident that addressing any ladies by "em oi" will be perfectly correct unless you could see that she is old enough to be "ba". In facts all ladies here preferred to be called "em". Unfortunately in Hai Phong, addressing any lady needed some rocket science experiment before uttering the salutation. How I wish that it could be as simple as Auntie and or Uncle or Sir and or Madam.Ending the "dispute", xin loi nhe spontaneously spill out from my mouth and continue with toi hieu roi... "chi" oi... vang vang. She know that I am a foreigner and by acting smart aleck... she confidently said "What The Heo" which I laugh all the way back home.Troi oi... will patronise her joint today to see her reaction.p/s: btw... I am same age as her as well.- @alexneoh
- chị is older than you
- em is younger than you
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Encountered such situation yesterday during my diner.As usual, almost daily frequenting this bun cha joint run by end 40's lady, sitting on a small little stool and table, munching my food while observing views that pleasuring my eyes, flushing my throat with bia hoi... how wonderful can it be right. Well after flicking and adjusting the "tam" couple of time, it's time to move... and this is where the rude awakening started.Getting used to "em oi", I started uttering "em oi... toi an mot suat bun cha, bao nhieu tien?". To my dismay, the lady start grumbling as though as she woke up from wrong side of the bed that day. Sensing something amiss, lucky with my colleague accompanied, get him to translate what is going on. With him as intermediate, cross words like how old are you is the source that triggered her dis-pleasure.Now the question is that who to distinguish when to use what?To my understanding, there are different categories in addressing female:- Cu / Ba ( grandmother or someone is more than 60s )- Bac / Co ( age group between 50s to 60 )- Chi ( between 40s to 50s )- Em ( majority no group age ) - depending on how old I am to address.When I'm in Saigon, pretty confident that addressing any ladies by "em oi" will be perfectly correct unless you could see that she is old enough to be "ba". In facts all ladies here preferred to be called "em". Unfortunately in Hai Phong, addressing any lady needed some rocket science experiment before uttering the salutation. How I wish that it could be as simple as Auntie and or Uncle or Sir and or Madam.Ending the "dispute", xin loi nhe spontaneously spill out from my mouth and continue with toi hieu roi... "chi" oi... vang vang. She know that I am a foreigner and by acting smart aleck... she confidently said "What The Heo" which I laugh all the way back home.Troi oi... will patronise her joint today to see her reaction.p/s: btw... I am same age as her as well.- @alexneoh
Cụ / bà is older than you 40 years old ( up to )
- Bác is older than your parents ,
- cô is younger than your parents
- chị is older than you ( 1- 15 years old )
- em is younger than you
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1@Vitamin_
Thanks for the info but still there is no safe bet in addressing in a correct way. Anyway will let nature take it course.
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Ok, all right, well, return to the joint on Friday night and so unfortunate that she is not working. Returning back again Sunday and ta-da... she is there manning here usual core. Dragging my "translator" into translating, while ordering our diner, we actually have a good chat but still she prefer me to call her "chi" which I adamantly refused. Rational of addressing her as "em" is way better and not a provocation or any of either sort which I explained. Left with no choice, she admitted defeat and just accept as is.
Upon payment, well to my surprise, got a FREE... yes FREE "nem" ( simplified explanation, a spring roll ) instead. A really rare occasion isn't it which I don't deem myself as a pious after all the chatting. Merely VND10K per piece but it change my perception about VN concurrently. Cam on rat nhieu em oi... which she smile. Being cheeky again, rub her further by telling her that its "what the hell and not what the heo ( pig )" which she have a hard time twisting her tongue into pronouncing it all night long I bet.
In concluding, will need to scrutinise and make myself remember whether am I in north or south prior to trajected the salutation. Lesson learned...
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Encountered such situation yesterday during my diner.As usual, almost daily frequenting this bun cha joint run by end 40's lady, sitting on a small little stool and table, munching my food while observing views that pleasuring my eyes, flushing my throat with bia hoi... how wonderful can it be right. Well after flicking and adjusting the "tam" couple of time, it's time to move... and this is where the rude awakening started.Getting used to "em oi", I started uttering "em oi... toi an mot suat bun cha, bao nhieu tien?". To my dismay, the lady start grumbling as though as she woke up from wrong side of the bed that day. Sensing something amiss, lucky with my colleague accompanied, get him to translate what is going on. With him as intermediate, cross words like how old are you is the source that triggered her dis-pleasure.Now the question is that who to distinguish when to use what?To my understanding, there are different categories in addressing female:- Cu / Ba ( grandmother or someone is more than 60s )- Bac / Co ( age group between 50s to 60 )- Chi ( between 40s to 50s )- Em ( majority no group age ) - depending on how old I am to address.When I'm in Saigon, pretty confident that addressing any ladies by "em oi" will be perfectly correct unless you could see that she is old enough to be "ba". In facts all ladies here preferred to be called "em". Unfortunately in Hai Phong, addressing any lady needed some rocket science experiment before uttering the salutation. How I wish that it could be as simple as Auntie and or Uncle or Sir and or Madam.Ending the "dispute", xin loi nhe spontaneously spill out from my mouth and continue with toi hieu roi... "chi" oi... vang vang. She know that I am a foreigner and by acting smart aleck... she confidently said "What The Heo" which I laugh all the way back home.Troi oi... will patronise her joint today to see her reaction.p/s: btw... I am same age as her as well.- @alexneoh
although i am far from expert ...
1. nomenclature is all age-relative. ie it does not relate to absolute ie actual age. so em (male and female which is also confusing) if you are younger than me, anh (male) if you are older (and then others if much more old as you mention)
eg chi gai is always for old(er) sister - regardless of actual age
ut always for youngest family - regardless of age eg em gai ut, em trai ut (or just ut)
chi is always used for any unrelated female somewhat older - again the absolute age is irrelevant (see chi gai above for older sister ... there appears to no male equivalent that i can work out)
(and con gai, con trai for female and male child, and con for children generally)
and 'ban' is ONLY used as a generic general form when you are addressing an unspecified audience eg notices, ads, etc
personally i think is a really illogical silly system, but that is what it is
2. 'oi' means 'come here' and can be quite peremptory.
why on earth are you using that? you might say 'em oi' with rising tone if you are calling (younger) person to come to you, eg in a restaurant/ca phe
3. the first question most Viet ask is age if not sure! because they need to know so that they know what form of address to use
Viet women are quite pernickety about this. makes me laugh when i think of my pathetic (incorrect) attempts when i first came to VN, but as a friendly foreigner i was given leeway and forgiveness..
4. remember Viet women always want to be thought young: but conversely always think they are ancient over 40 and certainly 50.
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1Encountered such situation yesterday during my diner.As usual, almost daily frequenting this bun cha joint run by end 40's lady, sitting on a small little stool and table, munching my food while observing views that pleasuring my eyes, flushing my throat with bia hoi... how wonderful can it be right. Well after flicking and adjusting the "tam" couple of time, it's time to move... and this is where the rude awakening started.Getting used to "em oi", I started uttering "em oi... toi an mot suat bun cha, bao nhieu tien?". To my dismay, the lady start grumbling as though as she woke up from wrong side of the bed that day. Sensing something amiss, lucky with my colleague accompanied, get him to translate what is going on. With him as intermediate, cross words like how old are you is the source that triggered her dis-pleasure.Now the question is that who to distinguish when to use what?To my understanding, there are different categories in addressing female:- Cu / Ba ( grandmother or someone is more than 60s )- Bac / Co ( age group between 50s to 60 )- Chi ( between 40s to 50s )- Em ( majority no group age ) - depending on how old I am to address.When I'm in Saigon, pretty confident that addressing any ladies by "em oi" will be perfectly correct unless you could see that she is old enough to be "ba". In facts all ladies here preferred to be called "em". Unfortunately in Hai Phong, addressing any lady needed some rocket science experiment before uttering the salutation. How I wish that it could be as simple as Auntie and or Uncle or Sir and or Madam.Ending the "dispute", xin loi nhe spontaneously spill out from my mouth and continue with toi hieu roi... "chi" oi... vang vang. She know that I am a foreigner and by acting smart aleck... she confidently said "What The Heo" which I laugh all the way back home.Troi oi... will patronise her joint today to see her reaction.p/s: btw... I am same age as her as well.- @alexneoh
PS do you mean 'chua oi'? (my unicode not doing any accents (diacritics) here)
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@wits3
Thanks wits3 for the inputs. Could not admonish myself when starting a random chat. At time myself my disgorge words which I deem correct but likewise not pleasant to be heard. Anyway your statement of "personally i think is a really illogical silly system, but that is what it is" prevail and will have to accept it regardless.
Likewise it maybe the same scenario when you are at a local restaurant where the table is presented with multiple sauce for dipping, even VN'ese are confused and having hard time figuring out which dish to go with which sauce. Even the owner are "blur" as need to refer the chef for advise. Equate to daily life encumbrance, it has evidence the complexity of local which at surface may appear mandate.
Well life in Vietnam is always a learning curve. Everyday will forsee new mundane circumstances and glad to explore more.
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@wits3
small correction/addition
i am informed that 'ban' can be correctly used if speaking to person of same age
it is all a bit ridiculous, but that is why (if any doubts about age in this context), the first question you will get asked is your age (which of course foreign women feel quite confronting espec because they do not understand why)
On the other hand, apparently Viet tend to think our (far easier simpler) idea of you/me etc to cover every situation is somewhat rude and discourteous. go figure.
Oh. i should also mention that Viet usually refer to themselves in the 3RD PERSON, ie they will not use 'I' (toi) a lot, but instead refer to themselves in the 3rd person ,eg em, anh. i would have to check just how far that extends, eg do 'chi gai' (older sister) refer to herself as that? she may just use 'chi' (but still 3rd person).
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Encountered such situation yesterday during my diner.As usual, almost daily frequenting this bun cha joint run by end 40's lady, sitting on a small little stool and table, munching my food while observing views that pleasuring my eyes, flushing my throat with bia hoi... how wonderful can it be right. Well after flicking and adjusting the "tam" couple of time, it's time to move... and this is where the rude awakening started.Getting used to "em oi", I started uttering "em oi... toi an mot suat bun cha, bao nhieu tien?". To my dismay, the lady start grumbling as though as she woke up from wrong side of the bed that day. Sensing something amiss, lucky with my colleague accompanied, get him to translate what is going on. With him as intermediate, cross words like how old are you is the source that triggered her dis-pleasure.Now the question is that who to distinguish when to use what?To my understanding, there are different categories in addressing female:- Cu / Ba ( grandmother or someone is more than 60s )- Bac / Co ( age group between 50s to 60 )- Chi ( between 40s to 50s )- Em ( majority no group age ) - depending on how old I am to address.When I'm in Saigon, pretty confident that addressing any ladies by "em oi" will be perfectly correct unless you could see that she is old enough to be "ba". In facts all ladies here preferred to be called "em". Unfortunately in Hai Phong, addressing any lady needed some rocket science experiment before uttering the salutation. How I wish that it could be as simple as Auntie and or Uncle or Sir and or Madam.Ending the "dispute", xin loi nhe spontaneously spill out from my mouth and continue with toi hieu roi... "chi" oi... vang vang. She know that I am a foreigner and by acting smart aleck... she confidently said "What The Heo" which I laugh all the way back home.Troi oi... will patronise her joint today to see her reaction.p/s: btw... I am same age as her as well.- @alexneohCụ / bà is older than you 40 years old ( up to )
- Bác is older than your parents ,
- cô is younger than your parents- chị is older than you ( 1- 15 years old )- em is younger than you- @Vitamin_
thanks for the more specific clarifications. we need a littel matrix ... older than me but not older than parents etc :-)
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1289
Considering that seven of my wife's nine siblings are older than her but all of them are 10-20 years younger than me I got educated on this fairly early in the relationship so as to not offend anyone.
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