Q: split type air-con installation

Hi Frank, I'm assuming the prices you mentioned are the installation prices.
I have had a few inverter type split systems installed and can be a minefield as you have seen. 2 years ago we installed a 2.5 Hp twin inverter LG in the living area which required a new breaker on the wall (32 amp double pole) with the outside unit wired back to the main switchboard. Very professional company and installation crew, PHP 42K for unit and installation. 1 year ago installed a 1 HP unit, LG dual inverter into the office (10ft x 10 ft) but an existing 20amp plug inside for power. 28,500 pesos. 5 or 6 minutes the room is cold, 26C
3 months ago same as above in the master bedroom as the 2 year old 1.25 hp window rattler (installed in the wall replacing an old unit that was failing) was noisy and power wise inefficient was 28,000pesos. Master B/R is 3.2M x 5M with ensuite but we keep the door closed takes about 15 minutes to reach 26C. Concrete block rendered home with in R.3 insulation in the living areas and hallways but not the bedrooms or office yet. Slack as I have the batts but am too lazy to get into a 50 C roof space, new roof coming and will insulate then.

Sourcing prices and installation for the 2.5 unit came from Savers.

https://saversappliances.com.ph

The other 2 units were secured on FB.
While I'm not sure if I was ripped off I was very comfortable with the outcome. Generally it's PHP 5 to 6K for the installation.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Steve.

My brother in law picked up a 1.5 hp LG inverter split system for me and it's sitting in my house waiting for me to finish my quarantine. I did some research and watched a few videos on how they do installations in the Philippines and I wasn't impressed. I packed all my HVAC tools and shipped them to Biliran and its waiting for me there. I will eventually install at least 3 systems but my bedroom is first. The service was going to be 75 amps but I had the contractor up it to 100 amps.

I have a 2 stage Robinair vacuum pump that I was on the fence whether to ship or not. It worked great, I was consistently pulling mini splits down to 160 microns with that pump.  I reasoned I could buy a voltage convertor cheaper than a new vacuum pump so I emailed Robinair about what size converter I needed and I received a reply right away showing which two wires to switch to convert the pump to 220 volts. I'm not sure they even use vacuum pumps in the Philippines.

I also packed Siemens disconnects and flexible conduit but I ordered line set tubing, communication cable and stainless wall mounting brackets from Lazada and all that has arrived. I ordered a 65mm masonry hole saw from Lazada also. Hopefully it will cut through 6" concrete filled hollow block. I have photos of the blocks being laid to help me miss the rebar. I just like doing it, I made excuses to install mini splits in the US.

bigpearl wrote:

snip

Thanks Steve, yes the amount does not include the aircon unit themselves. So far it looks right  6-10K

based on your figure, seems bout right compare  to what I'm getting also

2 Samsung split type digital inverter 2HP and 1.5HP (inc installation   circuit breaker)
1 Panasonic window type non inverter 1HP (DIY installation)
2 Electrolux - water shower heaters 3500W (DIY installation)

Total bill is going to be just north of 100K

Do you notice a big difference with the power consumption on non inverter vs inverter? All the research comes up with many saying the difference is big, 30% or more savings..

Moon Dog wrote:

snip

@moondog, wow you got the skills to do that yourself. Great. Unfortunately I am not skilled in the electrical department, I can change a socket. That's about it.

Can you recommend me a good wire or metal/pipe detector in concrete walls? I have a LOTUS and Black & Decker and they are kinda hit or miss.

Thanks

I checked on metal detectors a while ago mainly to check for rebar locations but I couldn't find one at a reasonable price that could detect at the depth I needed.

The electrical connections are the easy part, if you can change a socket you can hook up a mini split electrically. Pulling a good vacuum and doing a proper flare is a bit trickier. Removing non condensables like air and moisture is critical to the life and performance of your system and I'm not sure that is something they do in the Philippines.

The contractor that built my house put the A/C electrical connections where the indoor units mount. I made him move the connection outside, near the condenser locations. One of the guys I spoke to about drilling the well was going to do a fantastic job, but when I asked what size pressure tank he was going to install he said "you don't need a pressure tank" and I said "next". I have a Water Worker pressure tank in one of the balikbayan boxes. I changed the maid's room to a laundry room so I took it for granted a stand pipe would be installed for the washer drain but nope, it's a floor drain. I don't think this guy has built many houses for westerners.

Time to hang out a shingle in the PI, Moondog.. haha!

pnwcyclist wrote:

Time to hang out a shingle in the PI, Moondog.. haha!

Excellent idea! How is this for my shingle logo?

[img][/img]

Sorry Frank I missed your question from post #4.

Power consumption appears to have dropped 5 to 600 pesos per month since the last A/C installation in the master B/R. That unit runs 12 to 16 hours a day and the others rarely so a 5K regular bill dropped to 4.4 to 4.5K per month over the last 3 bills.
So on the surface appears to be a 10% saving, in reality running a 3 bed 2 bath home it's difficult to apportion that A/C's consumption over a billing cycle but I would guess at least 30% if not 40%.
At 30% equals 1.5K per month so I would agree with what you say with regards to a 30% saving, concurs with my 500 peso savings.

Sorry to waffle on but the best thing is we don't hear it grunting away like the old unit. The other way to save is centralising the unit, the old unit was mounted in the wall right in a corner so we had to run a pedestal fan all night to help move the air around. (dead/hot spots in the room). Now no pedestal fan.

Cheers,Steve.

Moon Dog, thanks for your informative contributions, much appreciated.

Vacuum pump here? What's that they ask. I installed many split systems in Australia over my plumbing years and each installation included my refrigeration guy to vac the lines and check for leaks,,,,,, very standard operation but not here.
As pnwcyclist mentioned there could be some opportunities here for you.

The proof of the pie will be in the eating when it comes to the 3 units we have installed here given potential contaminates now going through the system, how many years before the problems show up?
Living on the beach presents more problems with corrosion on the outside units, something I have no answers for yet.
We have to get rid of another window rattler in the spare bedroom and will probably install the same brand unit.

The other thing to watch for is the correct size unit for the space, there are plenty of calculators available online. 2 years ago I got some quotes to install the 2.5 HP unit in the living area, one company said no sir you need 2 x 2 HP units to cool this area. Bye.
The other companies said 2.5 HP was fine, as I calculated.
The 2.5 HP unit pulls the room temp down to 25/26C in 10 to 15 minutes (depending on outside temp) then the outside unit cranks down and runs at a purr.

Looking forward to more of your posts Moon Dog and BTW welcome back to the Philippines.

Cheers, Steve.

Thanks Steve, day 6 of quarantine and I'm glad to contribute where I can. I watched a few YouTube videos on split installations in the Philippines. One fellow built a fantastic house with some split units and when he fired one of them up it worked great, for a while, it was  apparently leaking at a flare connection. If he didn't pump it down the first time, and opens the system again, now he has a double load of air and moisture in the system.

When you lose he factory charge, or a portion of it, how much are you going to replace? There is only a gauge connection on the low side and the manufacturers are vague on pressures. One thing to do is note the system pressures and ambient temperatures at installation. Recording the pressure with the system off is good data as well as after it has ran for a while. If Kuya did not properly evacuate the system the running pressure may be higher than normal since you now have noncondensables in the system.

The other problem with not pumping down the system is moisture. Water in the system can cause an acidic solution to form which is not a good thing. Atmospheric pressure at sea level is 760,000 microns and rule of thumb is you need to be down to at least 500 and holding before you release the refrigerant into the system. I just let my pump go until the pressure stops dropping, usually around 160 microns, and when I block it in for a leak test it usually levels off at around 200 microns. At these extremely low pressures you have boiled off the water. Pressuring up the system with dry nitrogen before you pump it down is an even better leak test.

I manage to get the price down to 93K vs previous quote of almost 103K. Note: I went in with a wad of cash and my wife just kept haggling , oh man ever seen a pregnant woman haggle?   

Samsung 1.5 split type inverter (installation included   outdoor circuit breaker)
Samsung 2.0 split type inverter (installation included   outdoor circuit breaker)
Panasonic 1.0 window non inverter (DIY)
2x Electrolux 3500W water heater (installation included)

We were going to go with their free installment plan originally but was quoted around 115K  (22K difference vs final Cash amount) - uh technically not fee, lol

Think there's definitely more room to haggle with cash vs even your debit or credit card as they usually take a % of the sales, Visa MC is 3% for example. I think they gave % off first and additional % off when I showed them I'm paying with cash.

like the song Wu-Tang Clan - C.R.E.A.M "Cash rules everything around me, C.R.E.A.M.
Get the money, dollar dollar bill, y'all" 

Delivery tomorrow, installation on Aug 3. Wish me Luck 

Moon Dog wrote:

pnwcyclist wrote:

Time to hang out a shingle in the PI, Moondog.. haha!

Excellent idea! How is this for my shingle logo?

[url]https://i.imgur.com/N5Rzxv7.jpg[/url]

Excellent! Ha ha.

Moon Dog wrote:

pnwcyclist wrote:

Time to hang out a shingle in the PI, Moondog.. haha!

Excellent idea! How is this for my shingle logo?

[url]https://i.imgur.com/N5Rzxv7.jpg[/url]

Nice....btw does that right lower end partition lead to the ground floor CR?

I was looking at this site, curiosity, we have purchased many things from them and when I revisited window rattler type units vs split there is really no comparison including installation costs. Plus a large hole in the wall or blocking part of your window

https://saversappliances.com.ph/product … ndow-type/

VS

https://tinyurl.com/4sn99y24

Item # 1 on the second page shows 59K   installation. Ben haggled with them and we had that unit supplied and installed for 42K but that was 2 years ago.
We need another unit for the spare B/R (replace the ageing wall rattler) that's why I'm looking, will most likely go back to our FB supplier as they are cheaper. Last one from them, LG 1HP dual inverter split was 28K installed.

A question to Moon Dog. Any suggestions to help protect our outside units given the salt air?

Stay safe all.

Cheers, Steve.

manwonder wrote:

Moon Dog wrote:

pnwcyclist wrote:

Time to hang out a shingle in the PI, Moondog.. haha!

Excellent idea! How is this for my shingle logo?

[url]https://i.imgur.com/N5Rzxv7.jpg[/url]

Nice....btw does that right lower end partition lead to the ground floor CR?

It does lead to the CR, otherwise known as the hole in the floor.

bigpearl wrote:

A question to Moon Dog. Any suggestions to help protect our outside units given the salt air?

I don't have any experience with salt air installation. I cut this from the LG installation manual. It mentions contacting LG Electrotonics for additional anticorrosion if all else fails.

[img][/img]

I'll chime in too on that question, as you know in Hong Kong there are a lot of apartment that faces the water.

I had colleagues, friends, hear it a lot. Nothing last long, not even the television. Thanks to Corrosion.

Corrosion is unavoidable, unless you are willing to spend a lot of money. Too much to deem it worth your investment given the appliance you can replace every 3-5 years is probably cheaper.

The img Moon Dog posted will slow it down, but wont prevent it 100%. It's the trade off for living in such a serene environment.

As for property or fences, the like. There's a special paint for that which I'm sure you already know.

Inside, you can slow it down by not opening the windows too much and controlling the air in and thru the house, but since you are by the water, it kinda the point to enjoy the air.

don't think there is a win/win scenario with this (don't quote me tho) 

Appreciate your time and input Moon Dog. The two 1 HP units facing the ocean (some 50 metres away) are the gold fin units that are recommended for harsh conditions (salt air) and are mounted under the eaves some 7 ft off the concrete patio. The 2.5HP unit is mounted behind the house on the lee side of the beach and not a gold fin, 2 years on showing corrosion on the condenser fins. The one year old gold fin on the ocean side is showing early signs of corrosion. I don't want to oil or spray the condenser fins as this will collect dust and bugs and lead to ongoing maintenance at least bi yearly pressure washing and re coating with a barrier.
I guess time will tell, the joys of living ocean front.

Cheers, Steve.

The home we finished last year has 6 Daikin-brand split units. Really like them, but 3 of them are now not cooling their rooms like they used to. I'm assuming they need a freon recharge. What do you guys think? Anything I might be missing? Air filters are clean. Thanks -- Rich

What's the model?