Help on visa denial

@Jkb8536

rest if the rant or questions

i might be super naïve because  this is my first experience with all this. I was just over there in Vietnam in November 2022 to go visit her and her family but my trip got cut short bc I had a motorbike accident in sapa and ended up breaking my pelvis and had to get flown back to the USA on a stretcher 2 weeks later. She stayed by my side for 13 days in Hanoi french hospital. I got to meet her sisters but due to the accident I didn’t get to meet her parents except on a video call in the hospital. Our next step was for her to come visit my family. We were trying to take the normal steps in our relationship without jumping to marriage. I don’t understand how she is getting denied, we had 20 pages of proof that she has strong ties to Vietnam, business license, property investment contract, copy of all the traveling she  did with me, before meeting me and with her ex as well. She has been to Canada, Switzerland, France, Italy, Thailand, Philippines, Singapore just to name a few.. when she tried to provide the invitations letter, license or contracts they said they don’t need any of it and asked her three question and said your denied. They asked the point of the trip which she said travel to visit USA and to meet my parent and return home. They asked how long we were together for and another one I can’t think of at the moment. It feel like with us  trying to be honest and upfront about our relationship f’d us but I didn’t want them to think she was lying about anything and risk her getting permanently denied a visa. It’s like the US government is perfectly fine me marry her and bring her back and hoping it works but if we want to do a normal relationship step by step and meet the parent and have it happen naturally we can’t do that because they think every one wants to escape and live in the USA

we even emailed in and asked for the denial reason and it’s just got a generic response. They said they base everyone individually and look at background, travel history and several aspect and all the information is in the ds160 form and the officer doesn’t typically ask or need any other documents. Then at the very end it says we can reapply but need to provide proof … so how does one supposed to provide proof that they have strong ties when the officer refuses to even look at the documents that your trying to show ? They are pretty much contradictory statements.

it’s like they know she can’t appeal the decision and I can’t either so they use a generic denial and it’s just a money making scam of 160 dollars an appt for Vietnamese ppl.

I know a lot of ppl want to escape to USA but you would think that if she planned on leaving Vietnam she would have during the trips she took to all these other countries. USA is great and all but I’m sure France Italy Switzerland and all the other places would be just as good if she wanted to overstay and escape Vietnam.

sorry for the long rant but I’m completely dumbfounded bc of everywhere she has traveled to and all the proof we had but yet she was denied to even show it but yet the embassy says you have to provide proof.

Does anyone have any suggestions?  or is K1 or marriage in Vietnam the only routes we have? I mean I would have no problem marrying her but I first wanted to know she would be happy here instead of jumping straight to marriage . We both been married and know what we want and if I marry again it’s my last one bc I want it to be with the right person so I don’t want to mess anything up. My work let me travel for vacation but I doubt I can stay in Vietnam for a month for a marriage reason. I would prefer to marry in USA bc I feel her future papers will be easier.

@Jkb8536

Not a chance for a girlfriend.

Your best bet is to marry her in Vietnam first.

Many European countries are exactly the same…

@secedit

The first time she didn’t even mention me. Went thru an agency and we really didn’t think she would get denied since she travel to many different countries and we had the proof of sting ties. All they asked was three questions about her previous marriage and said she was denied. She tried to give the documents showing her strong ties but they wouldn’t even look at them.

it’s like they are using a computer to predict the approval so they are using the likely hood of her fitting into a box like others so they truly aren’t basing the visa decisions on the individual bc if they were they would see the travel history. Like I said the USA is great in all but I’m sure if she wanted to escape Vietnam she would have done it over the past 6 or 7 years of her traveling to all these other countries.

I don’t understand how they tell someone to provide the proof but when they bring the proof they say no we don’t need it.

-@Jkb8536

What's your background?

Some of your syntax hints that English might not be your primary language...?

Also, your vague understanding of her "divorce" has me wondering if you've actually seen proof of it on paper or did she just describe it to you?

@Jkb8536

I've been through getting a woman a spousal visa as well as a non immigrant visa.  For the latter they have some kind of algorithm that determines whether there's a strong risk the person will stay after the visa expires.  If you tell them she's going there to visit you they know that in many other cases the person in that situation did overstay the visa so they deny it. In fact most Vietnamese-probably more than 1/2- give some information to immigration that puts them in the category of being at risk of not coming back from the US. 

For K1 visa it's a fiancé visa.  Your GF can go there without you being married to her and she has a certain amt of time she can stay before you must either marry her or she goes back to VN.  Getting the fiance visa does not necessitate her marrying you but her staying longer in the USA does... actually it's much better to not be married and get fiancé visa than to be already married for many years and wait endless months and have to go through many more hoops to bring your wife to America on the spousal visa....

@secedit

intuitively you'd think it's better to marry her in vn but it's actually easier to do fiancé visa and marry her in usa if possible...

@OceanBeach92107

I’m white, 37 and US citizen and 12 years same company, currently a National Director for a large US based outdoor company. Not sure on vague comment about divorce but maybe you missed it in the first post?

We both have papers from previous divorces. She had the proof of annulment/divorce but they never ask for it and they never gave her an opportunity to show any proof. Just like the second time she tried to present supporting doc and was told no and said we don’t need it and you’ve been refused.

@ntbusch1

yeah, but to get a k1 visa is a minimum of 15.5 months to just get to the final interview just to visit the USA to meet my parents.

I would prefer a usa marriage but k1 or marriage visa wasn’t the intent of her visit.  First try was a done by an agency and she had all paperwork I would assume she needed to show proof but they didn’t asked for  and she trying to provide it but they decline to even look.

so during the second try I was thinking okay we’ll be straight honest explain the situation have letter from my parents inviting her and guaranteeing all expenses. There shouldn’t be any issue with the embassy thinking she is lying and trying to overstay . If she overstays or tries to get married in the two week she visiting it would flag her and I wouldn’t want to risk her losing visa permanently. we were trying to do a normal relationship of me visiting her parents then her visit my parents then take the relationship to the next step type of thing.

again we had all the required paperwork show proof of everything and when she tried to present our burden of proof like they say you have to do they decline to even look. The response they sent back we asked was contradictory.

again I might be naive on this stuff but if the embassy says they review each case individually but they use a computer system to predict then each case isn’t evaluated individually. I was pissed the first day and called the embassy and finally got someone on the phone and he said they don’t have time to review documents but yet you’re supposed to provide proof thru documents? He gave all basic vague answers.

it’s like they know there isn’t a way to appeal the decision since they aren’t U.S. citizens so they give you the basic broad spectrum deny so it’s just a money grabbing deal for the government 160 per appt. You cant provide burden of proof because they decline to review it so it u either fit in a box based on all Vietnamese ciitizens or you don’t. the case is not individualized.

@secedit
intuitively you'd think it's better to marry her in vn but it's actually easier to do fiancé visa and marry her in usa if possible...
-@ntbusch1

Interesting! In Canada it's the other way arround. Marriage is the safest bet. A friend of mine, Viet Kieu from Canada, tried to get his wife of 8 years a tourist visa to Canada and it was denied. The "family reunion" route is the only safe one in Canada. Just impressive how differently two neighbouring countries can handle immigration.

It's virtually impossible to get a tourist visa for a single female from Vietnam. I was like you and tried to get one for my girlfriend at the time. In my mind I figured it would be easy as she would definitely return to Vietnam as I was living and working in Vietnam myself so of course she would come back to Vietnam with me. No go.

We have since married and she came back with me on a CR-1 visa in March 2021. We are staying in the US until she gets her citizenship in another two years, then moving back to Vietnam.

Go ahead and file for the K1.  It will likely take less than 15 months.  Once she gets it she can come for up to 90 days.  By the end of that time you either need to marry or she has to leave.  Don't feel obligated to marry.  Continue to date and then later you can marry in Vietnam and then file for a CR-1.  A "used" K1 that didn't end in marriage will definitely not hurt your immigration chances on the CR-1.  They can actually look at that as responsible relationship building.

I got a US student visa approved in 2012. not the same situation but reading your post I understand your frustration. I think the more desperate they can smell off of you, the more they're likely to disapprove your visa. The interview process is VERY up to the agent. LMAO. I know as when I was at the embassy, the lady in front of me got her kids visa approved but NOT HER. I was like the ffff? she was a mom who travels with her kids yet her visa got denied.

Also, if she has been denied once already, it is very likely it'll continue being denied. That record just stays with you. US is notoriously hard to get visa approved.

If your goal is to have her meet your parents. Why can't they meet her with you in Canada? or meet in Vietnam? Everyone can meet there since you have not met her parents yet. If you are trying to go the normal relationship route, that ain't it. Maybe the reason for her to come visit your parents are not enough for the embassy to approve of her. They get suspicious with "healthy relationships"

I'll definitely recommend you not to apply again right away. I don't know how it works really but the fact that she applied twice and got denied doesn't look very good. Change your plans and don't depend on the governments to help. Good luck

@nhi hoang76

i would consider the travel to Canada so everyone can meet but my parents don’t even have passports and never been out on the country. The her family would have to get Canadian visa if we wanted a family type meeting for everyone.

Mainly My mom isn’t in the best of health to travel to Vietnam or Canada  and they would end up wanting to drive it and that’s like 20 hours from where I live bc  my dad never been on a plane. It’s crazy to think about it todays age but they never had the urge to travel like that really .

we are just shocked from the start bc she has never had an issue getting visa for all her traveling before. She got her Canadian visa before trying for the USA back in April and it was a piece of cake. No issues and she had it in a few weeks. Then she went to do the USA and didn’t think it would be any different bc she just got a Canadian visa, plus she had visa to France, Switzerland, Italy and some other places so her proven track record of returning has always been good.

But like I said both time went in and 5 mins later she said they wouldn’t even let me provide proof of anything and denied me.

@SteinNebraska

thanks for the input, the one thing I worried about was, if I apply for a k1 when she technically isn’t a fiancé yet. They said her visa type wasn’t correct for her activities but yet we aren’t engaged so technically how can I do a fiancé visa.

Of course I can ask her and I would imagine she would say yes and then we could have the answer to “how did he propose” if that is asked but if I didn’t I would worry about them saying the relationship is not real.

it’s like a catch 22, they won’t let her visit on a tourist visa but they are forcing your hand into k1 visa when we aren’t engage yet.

i get usa is a dream for a lot of ppl around the world but it’s a dream for a lot of ppl to live places she already visited too and she returned from each.

It's just plain difficul but it's a high fraud country so the US is just very strict about it.  Too many come and never leave.

Conversely, a Vietnamese friend at work has been here for 12 years and she has had her sister visit a couple of times.  It helps because they own 4-5 hotels in Vietnam that they operate so she has "ties to her home country" that makes her go back.

The guy that I work with in VN has been here a couple of times but he got his Masters in Canada and he's coming on business.  He's coming again in March.  His son was able to get a student visa and is going to college in TX but again, he was a foreign exchange student here in High School a few years back.

@SteinNebraska

yeah we tried to show proof of strong ties by typing out multiple things in the ds160 and bringing a business license and property investment papers and other items. Pretty much everything they said we would need to show proof but they didn’t even consider looking. She had my hospital paperwork where I was hospitalized while I was in Hanoi showing all the statements were true. But no matter how much they say you have to provide proof you’re never given the opportunity to do so bc they say they don’t need it.

she is very reserved about it and said that’s just the way it is there and wasn’t going to say anything.  if it was me and they did that I would be asking for an explanation besides the generic one. They would be giving me specific details causing the denial and explaining how they came to that conclusion before I attempted to leave.

I get the fraud part but when my family did the invitation letter I had them scan their driver license onto the page and sign it so they knew it was real. You can’t fake looking up a DL in the dmv and see everything exactly the same. Then they said they don’t even look at those or take them into consideration but yet the embassy has forms you fill out to disclosing everything if I want to do it.

Supposedly I talked to someone in the visa department but I obviously couldn’t talk about the specific case since I wasn’t her but  I just asked questions and every time he said a generic statement I told him that makes no sense based on her history bc you say in your legal documents you take in account each person situation on their own. He replied to that saying we do treat each person as an individual then I said okay then why does she not get the opportunity to explain her situation and provide the proof you need. You place the burden of proof on the applicant but your officer denied the applicant the ability to present the proof. Based on what you just said to me on what she needs for a tourist visa she has proof on but yet you wont accept the proof and denied her the ability to present it for review. After that, he said they don’t have time for reviewing the documents and got an attitude with me. Personally, I could be wrong, but I think I was proving my point to him and I tried to lead him down my questions so he couldn’t just do a blanket statement. I asked him to explain why she wasn’t given the opportunity to present her case and he said this conversations over and hung up.

it just everything they said contradicts their own statements.I guess I’m naive and if that’s normal practice there but that’s some bs.

Personally, I could be wrong, but I think I was proving my point to him and I tried to lead him down my questions so he couldn’t just do a blanket statement. I asked him to explain why she wasn’t given the opportunity to present her case and he said this conversations over and hung up.

it just everything they said contradicts their own statements.I guess I’m naive and if that’s normal practice there but that’s some bs.
-@Jkb8536

You need to understand that the whole immigration process is very subjective and immigration officers have total power to decline an application for any reason they deem important enough. They don't need to justify themselves. They can decline an appplication just because they had a bad day or a bad coffee. You can be angry that the sun is rising in the morning but it won't change how things work.

@Jkb8536
I've been through getting a woman a spousal visa as well as a non immigrant visa. For the latter they have some kind of algorithm that determines whether there's a strong risk the person will stay after the visa expires. If you tell them she's going there to visit you they know that in many other cases the person in that situation did overstay the visa so they deny it. In fact most Vietnamese-probably more than 1/2- give some information to immigration that puts them in the category of being at risk of not coming back from the US.
For K1 visa it's a fiancé visa. Your GF can go there without you being married to her and she has a certain amt of time she can stay before you must either marry her or she goes back to VN. Getting the fiancé visa does not necessitate her marrying you but her staying longer in the USA does... actually it's much better to not be married and get fiancé visa than to be already married for many years and wait endless months and have to go through many more hoops to bring your wife to America on the spousal visa....
-@ntbusch1

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

Boom

MAc

@Jkb8536
I've been through getting a woman a spousal visa as well as a non immigrant visa. For the latter they have some kind of algorithm that determines whether there's a strong risk the person will stay after the visa expires. If you tell them she's going there to visit you they know that in many other cases the person in that situation did overstay the visa so they deny it. In fact most Vietnamese-probably more than 1/2- give some information to immigration that puts them in the category of being at risk of not coming back from the US.
For K1 visa it's a fiancé visa. Your GF can go there without you being married to her and she has a certain amt of time she can stay before you must either marry her or she goes back to VN. Getting the fiancé visa does not necessitate her marrying you but her staying longer in the USA does... actually it's much better to not be married and get fiancé visa than to be already married for many years and wait endless months and have to go through many more hoops to bring your wife to America on the spousal visa....
-@ntbusch1

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

Boom

MAc
-@Mac68

Keep trying to push the square peg into the round hole (as the OP has been doing) and see how much progress you make.

As long as the OP keeps attempting to use something that is, as if it were something it isn't, this type of frustration and failure is inevitable.

Sometimes the greatest progress is made when people simply read and follow directions, instead of approaching problems with preconceived notions as to how something should work, and then attempt to force the instructions to work within their incorrect assumptions.

@Jkb8536
I've been through getting a woman a spousal visa as well as a non immigrant visa. For the latter they have some kind of algorithm that determines whether there's a strong risk the person will stay after the visa expires. If you tell them she's going there to visit you they know that in many other cases the person in that situation did overstay the visa so they deny it. In fact most Vietnamese-probably more than 1/2- give some information to immigration that puts them in the category of being at risk of not coming back from the US.
For K1 visa it's a fiancé visa. Your GF can go there without you being married to her and she has a certain amt of time she can stay before you must either marry her or she goes back to VN. Getting the fiancé visa does not necessitate her marrying you but her staying longer in the USA does... actually it's much better to not be married and get fiancé visa than to be already married for many years and wait endless months and have to go through many more hoops to bring your wife to America on the spousal visa....
-@ntbusch1

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

Boom

MAc
-@Mac68

Keep trying to push the square peg into the round hole (as the OP has been doing) and see how much progress you make.
As long as the OP keeps attempting to use something that is, as if it were something it isn't, this type of frustration and failure is inevitable.

Sometimes the greatest progress is made when people simply read and follow directions, instead of approaching problems with preconceived notions as to how something should work, and then attempt to force the instructions to work within their incorrect assumptions.
-@OceanBeach92107

OB,

You've done again.

Right to the 'Heart'  of the matter.

Thank you

MAc

@Jkb8536 Unless your girlfriend has either a large bank account or a business in Vietnam, your chances are slim to nil. The USA assumes everyone admitted will overstay their visa unless they have significant interests in their home country. I'm not a lawyer, so feel free to inquire with any $500/ hr lawyer of your choice.

@Jkb8536

In my observations the major (huge gigantic) roadblock is in the wording of the 214(b)  guideline (read tghem several times). The customs agents are *required* to *assume* that the applicant will attempt to overstay - unless s/he *proves* she/he will not overstay. On the surface, this is clearly an impossibility. But the task is essentially one of convincing them that she will not overstay and each agent has the discretion to evaluate as they see fit (I don't know that they have rejection quotas, but have suspected they do). So the question becomes "what is convincing proof?" The immigratuion website gives exambles, which i think are sometimes almost cast in stone and others seem to be more advisory.

It seems to me that the strogest "proof" would be a women leaving her minor children in VN while she visited the US. (lets face it, very few women would abandon their children for her own new life). A (responsible) job really helps - one where an employer has granted her time off and fully expects her to return. An education or other means of enabling employment in  Vietnam . Something that shows she is not destitute and trying to escape. A street vendor is not likely to be approved; a university professor is. Owning a house, having a car and bank account all help. i.e. "how much is she giving up is she doesn't come back?"

Your relationship status is *not* very likely to help. I witnessed one student-visa applicant suddenly fail when she disclosed that her BF worked for the school where she would be a grad student. They told her to apply for a marriage visa. Similarl;y the officcial webside rather discourages letters of support - accept from existing family. Such letters seem to  open up more questions than they solve (like *why* are you offering to support). (remember that few people seriously want to maintain a long term, long distance, exclusive relationship).

yes, its a real bitch. I wish you luck in threading the narrow twisty path.

@ntbusch1
yeah, but to get a k1 visa is a minimum of 15.5 months to just get to the final interview just to visit the USA to meet my parents.

I would prefer a usa marriage but k1 or marriage visa wasn’t the intent of her visit. First try was a done by an agency and she had all paperwork I would assume she needed to show proof but they didn’t asked for and she trying to provide it but they decline to even look.

so during the second try I was thinking okay we’ll be straight honest explain the situation have letter from my parents inviting her and guaranteeing all expenses. There shouldn’t be any issue with the embassy thinking she is lying and trying to overstay . If she overstays or tries to get married in the two week she visiting it would flag her and I wouldn’t want to risk her losing visa permanently. we were trying to do a normal relationship of me visiting her parents then her visit my parents then take the relationship to the next step type of thing.

again we had all the required paperwork show proof of everything and when she tried to present our burden of proof like they say you have to do they decline to even look. The response they sent back we asked was contradictory.

again I might be naive on this stuff but if the embassy says they review each case individually but they use a computer system to predict then each case isn’t evaluated individually. I was pissed the first day and called the embassy and finally got someone on the phone and he said they don’t have time to review documents but yet you’re supposed to provide proof thru documents? He gave all basic vague answers.

it’s like they know there isn’t a way to appeal the decision since they aren’t U.S. citizens so they give you the basic broad spectrum deny so it’s just a money grabbing deal for the government 160 per appt. You cant provide burden of proof because they decline to review it so it u either fit in a box based on all Vietnamese ciitizens or you don’t. the case is not individualized.
-@Jkb8536

Disclaimer: I am totally newbie about marriages etc, like idiot about all that stuff. Do not know clue about US family laws, but I am aware that no matter what in US law is heavily biased toward woman during divorce crap. Since you do not mind getting married, why you not get married in VN instead of marriage in US, if marriage goes south you can easier detach yourself in Vietnamese court *AFAK* in US (worst case) you gonna pay her apannage for rest of her life?And by the way her visa problem by marriage you get solved ? I guess as divorced woman she will happily accept your proposal :-)

Disclaimer: I am totally newbie about marriages etc, like idiot about all that stuff. Do not know clue about US family laws, but I am aware that no matter what in US law is heavily biased toward woman during divorce crap. Since you do not mind getting married, why you not get married in VN instead of marriage in US, if marriage goes south you can easier detach yourself in Vietnamese court *AFAK* in US (worst case) you gonna pay her apannage for rest of her life?And by the way her visa problem by marriage you get solved ? I guess as divorced woman she will happily accept your proposal :-)
-@narcrepellant2525

I believe that in terms of equity of divorce settlements that it matters not where the marriage took place, rather, it is the jurisdiction in which the divorce petition is filed/adjudicated.

Disclaimer: I am totally newbie about marriages etc, like idiot about all that stuff. Do not know clue about US family laws, but I am aware that no matter what in US law is heavily biased toward woman during divorce crap. Since you do not mind getting married, why you not get married in VN instead of marriage in US, if marriage goes south you can easier detach yourself in Vietnamese court *AFAK* in US (worst case) you gonna pay her apannage for rest of her life?And by the way her visa problem by marriage you get solved ? I guess as divorced woman she will happily accept your proposal :-)
-@narcrepellant2525

I believe that in terms of equity of divorce settlements that it matters not where the marriage took place, rather, it is the jurisdiction in which the divorce petition is filed/adjudicated.
-@Aidan in HCMC

Exactly, it doesn't matter *where* you got married. I got married in Vietnam but when divorcing in Canada, they didn't care where the marriage took place, as long as the marriage was done lawfully in that country that is.

So to adhere to @narcrepellant2525's version of 'safe' marriage and divorce, you'd need to divorce in Vietnam. The thing I'm wondering is how difficult it would be to get a divorce in Vietnam when the marriage was done abroad. I got the feeling it might get tricky. Also, the divorce certificate from Vietnam could be easily challenged in a Western coountry as being "fake" and bought for.