New Car Faulty

fidobsa wrote:

....When I saw the car on Monday we went for a short test drive but the salesman drove it. It was doing what we used to call "kangaroo petrol" but the salesmen indicated this was due to it being low on fuel, the qauge was showing empty.
I picked the car up this morning and went straight to a petrol station. It was running badly again and the engine management light was flashing. After I put some fuel in it seemed to be running better but the engine management light now glowed continuously. I took it straight back to the dealer but when the salesman tried it the light went out. I took it to the Tesco car park and parked it up as I had gone into town in my van. I took the van home and went back to town on the bus. Coming home from Tescos it ran fine but again the engine management light stayed on for the whole journey. ...

I don't know about the consumer protection, but it seems obvious they should fix it. You need someone to go with you to argue with them. Be aware of course, there's a lot of complete crooks dealing in cars in Hungary, but if it's a main dealer, I think it's just a communication/language problem.

Re: the kangaroo petrol, maybe the car was just cold. It has been terribly cold recently. If it was a diesel, then this might be more of a clue.

For the engine management light, when you switch on, there might be a code displayed by the way the light flashes on start up. Or there could be code displayed via some mechanism for switching the ignition on and off, or holding down perhaps a button on the display. Once you know the code, you can look it up on the Internet to at least give a diagnostic and a better idea of what's going on. The only other way to find out is to get it plugged into a diagnostic station. The dealer should have this kind of machinery or you could take it to a specialist.

This might help:

Hungarian Automotive Dictionary

Hi,

If you bought the car from a dealer and not from another regular person, (check the name of the seller, "eladó" on the contract, is it "Kovacs Janos", or "Opel Belezna kft"?) he has legal obligation to provide 1 year warranty (? szavatosság in Hungarian). Better yet, for 6 month, any fault is assumed to have pre-existed on sale making the seller responsible for fixing it unless proven otherwise. (In the second 6 months it's the other way around.)

In any sale you have 8 working days to cancel (elállás). You don't even have to cite any reason, you just changed your mind.

Consumer protection is "fogyasztóvédelem" and there is an agency that's supposed to handle such cases: http://www.nfh.hu/

At least that's the law, but I'm not a lawyer, and you'll probably need one because a used car dealer will cheat you out of rights and money without batting an eye.

Let me know if you need something translated or anything else I can help you with remotely.
I'll have to buy a car too quite soon, in similar category, and this is exactly the kind of thing I'm afraid of. I hope to take along a car mechanic friend, but he won't be able to spot everything either...

Oh and good luck :-(

Thanks for the replies. The paperwork does have the company name of the dealer and the receipt also has the Chevrolet logo. I did send an email to the dealer yesterday but it might be gobbledygook as I used Google translate plus the wording for the warning lamp from the owners handbook (üzemzavarjelzö figyelmeztetö lámpa).

Yes, that looks like "check engine light" all right.

fidobsa wrote:

Thanks for the replies. The paperwork does have the company name of the dealer and the receipt also has the Chevrolet logo. I did send an email to the dealer yesterday but it might be gobbledygook as I used Google translate plus the wording for the warning lamp from the owners handbook (üzemzavarjelzö figyelmeztetö lámpa).

Depending how handy you feel, you could try this:
Chevrolet Diagnostics

Another alternative is to use an interpreter. One thing I've done in the past for all sorts of reasons is to find an interpreter (costs some money), then get them on the phone in Skype, then call the garage. If the interpreter is up to their job, they will get stuck in, introduce themselves and then act as your "Hungarian" mouth and ears. They won't advise you but they will say exactly what you say and translate exactly what the other side says.

If you get an interpreter in the UK, you can pay in Sterling directly to their bank account. Shouldn't cost too much for 10 mins. Certainly shouldn't cost more than £10. 

While it's a pain to pay, it'll sort it out once and for all.

I requested a read receipt when I sent the email and I received that this morning. I will wait to see what happens. I would not be going anywhere in this weather anyway.

Whether your warning light was on or not when you took it back to the dealer was irrelevant. Newer cars record in their computer memory when and why the light turned on. Even if the warning light was off when the dealer tried it the error code was still in memory and the reason for the error you experienced could have been retrieved.

When you take the car back you should demand they check the code with a code scanner, if the light is on or not. Or for about 50 Euro you can buy a very basic code reader to get the basic error code (what the code means should either be in your car's owner's manual or you can probably find it online for your make and model).

Some times these lights come on for very important reasons needing immediate attention, or for the most silly reasons with the most ridiculously simple solutions you would never think of unless you know about cars.

klsallee wrote:

..... the error code was still in memory and the reason for the error you experienced could have been retrieved....

This does not always work. Depending on the car, some intermittent faults are not actually saved in memory or are erased after every say, 50 engine starts.

Also the quality of cheap OBD (On Board Diagnostics) readers is highly variable, especially the ones you see on Ebay. Best to take it to a diagnostic station specialising in that make of car as they will have the proper service manual/codes.

fluffy2560 wrote:

This does not always work.

Works more times than not, so the dealer should have checked when a customer returned the car with a complaint that the check light turned on.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Depending on the car, some intermittent faults are not actually saved in memory

True back in 1996, but for most modern cars, such as a 2008 Chevy, most every bit of fault information is recorded. But that must be retrieved using a far more expensive history scanner (hundreds or thousands of Euros), not a inexpensive code tool (that typically only reads the fault code when the check engine light is on).

But, again, the point is the dealer still should have checked the complaint anyway just in case any history fault was recorded rather than just send the client along his way unchecked; it takes just a very few minutes to do such a check.

fluffy2560 wrote:

or are erased after every say, 50 engine starts.

But this was not the case is it? As he took it back immediately. So well below 50 starts. So not sure what value this comment has to this discussion.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Also the quality of cheap OBD (On Board Diagnostics) readers is highly variable, especially the ones you see on Ebay. Best to take it to a diagnostic station specialising in that make of car as they will have the proper service manual/codes.

I and others disagree:

http://www.auto-facts.org/auto-scan-tool.html


I would personally never buy anything on Ebay. Go to an auto parts store to get a good, simple, inexpensive one that fits in the glove compartment.

The more you pay for one, the more information they provide. But the basic ones should all report the same basic code fault information, as they are simply reading computer memory. If that code fault provides "useful" information to a layman or not is a different matter.

Having such a unit is like any tool, it is useful for the range and utility for which it is designed as long as you know what you are doing and know its limitations (see above link). For example, if you are on the road, and you have a code reader in your glove compartment, and you get a check engine light on that indicates an vapor leak, then you may have a significant problem or you may have just not tightened your gas (petrol) cap the last time you tanked up.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

This does not always work.

klsallee wrote:

Works more times than not, so the dealer should have checked when a customer returned the car with a complaint that the check light turned on.

I agree but I think it's a language problem rather than obstructiveness.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Depending on the car, some intermittent faults are not actually saved in memory

klsallee wrote:

True back in 1996, but for most modern cars, such as a 2008 Chevy, most every bit of fault information is recorded. But that must be retrieved using a far more expensive history scanner (hundreds or thousands of Euros), not a inexpensive code tool (that typically only reads the fault code when the check engine light is on).

2008 Chevys notwithstanding, I can only relate what I know from cars I've had direct recent experience maintaining, mainly Fords and Chryslers. Ford cars (even up to the present day) are notorious for not storing the diagnostic codes between restarts. We don't know how many restarts the Chevy Spark has done since this thread started.

My biggest beef with cheap OBD readers is that cheap diagnostic tools also do not allow you to change data in the vehicle memory, only to read it. For example, coding immobiliser keys (immobilisers are compulsory in Europe) requires modification to data in the ECU (Electronic Control Unit) if you do not have the master key. Also in Ford cars, the speedometer and the ECU are coded to each other. So if you try and change the speedo and don't change the codes in the ECU to the new ones in the speedo, the car will be immobilised (by disabling the fuel pump)!  Another issue with Ford diesel cars is that each injector needs to be coded in memory for correct calibration. There's a code stamped on the side of the injector.   

So, the point is, cheap OBDs are limited in functionality and while it might give you a generic code, it won't give you all the details and without the write ability, also not that useful, if for example, you need to upgrade the firmware.

If it was me, I'd do the quick diagnostic test with the flashing light and see what it says.

fluffy2560 wrote:

My biggest beef with cheap OBD readers is that cheap diagnostic tools also do not allow you to change data in the vehicle memory, only to read it

That is the best features, IMHO. DIY should not be changing data. Reading and clearing codes for basic testing is all they should do; unless they are an advanced auto DIY or a trained mechanic, and for those groups there are of course more advanced tools.

klsallee wrote:

....
That is the best features, IMHO. DIY should not be changing data. Reading and clearing codes for basic testing is all they should do; unless they are an advanced auto DIY or a trained mechanic, and for those groups there are of course more advanced tools.

Feature or failure?

I general I agree but for some things, it's just a rip off. A Ford immobiliser key costs 100-120 EUR to include in the car's immobiliser system at a dealer. That's just silly money for something that takes 2 minutes to do and when you can buy keys for EUR 3 on Ebay.

fluffy2560 wrote:

A Ford immobiliser key costs 100-120 EUR .... That's just silly money for something that takes 2 minutes to do...

Agreed. But saving money is one of the main points of learning to DIY, isn't it?

Hola,

Vivo en Brasil con un visado de trabajo de reagrupación familiar. Trabajo como autónomo (CNPJ). En 2011 trabajé en Brasil y debo presentar ahora la declaración impuestos en Brasil. Estoy obligada a presentar el IRPF en españa por los ingresos brasileños y aplicar la exención por doble tributación internacional? El % de impuesto en brasil es mas bajo que en españá.

Gracias,
marta

Mcanabal wrote:

Hola,

Vivo en Brasil con un visado de trabajo de reagrupación familiar. Trabajo como autónomo (CNPJ). En 2011 trabajé en Brasil y debo presentar ahora la declaración impuestos en Brasil. Estoy obligada a presentar el IRPF en españa por los ingresos brasileños y aplicar la exención por doble tributación internacional? El % de impuesto en brasil es mas bajo que en españá.

Gracias,
marta

Este no es el sitio correcto para preguntar acerca de los problemas fiscales en España o Brasil. Pruebe los foros brasileños o español. Es un tema sobre la fijación de los coches en Hungría.

I have not used the car again until this afternoon which was a bit warmer at about -4 C. I went to town and the light stayed off at all times. It could be the problem is temperature related so I will perhaps try it first thing tomorrow morning.
I did get a reply to my email, inviting me to bring it to the service dept. but no specific appointment date / time was suggested.

fidobsa wrote:

I have not used the car again until this afternoon which was a bit warmer at about -4 C. I went to town and the light stayed off at all times. It could be the problem is temperature related so I will perhaps try it first thing tomorrow morning.
I did get a reply to my email, inviting me to bring it to the service dept. but no specific appointment date / time was suggested.

Hope it works out! I am sure they are not trying to diddle you if a main dealer. It's a big problem trying to communicate with people here in Hungary especially out in the sticks.

As long as you're smiling while complaining, it seems to encourage people to help (works everywhere actually).

My own car is suffering with the temperature but it's a diesel. They usually change the fuel in the winter to stop waxing but maybe this year the sudden cold snap has caught out the supply chain and the right fuel was not delivered. Just a thought.

The car seemed to have cured itself but on my way home on Sunday I was coming up the hill out of the next village and the light started flashing again. I went out again this morning and the light was on again so I took a photo of the clocks. As you might expect, the light had gone out by the time I got to the car dealer but I showed them the photo. They took it in the workshop and presumably plugged it into their diagnostics. If I have more problems I will contact Chevrolet themselves.

I emailed Chevrolet and they contacted the dealer. It sounds like either the fault is not one listed in the diagnostics list or the setup on this model does not have a memory that can be interogated. I took the car back to the dealer this morning and the light was still on so I left the engine running for them to see. Of course they switched off the ignition, re-started and the light went off! They then went for a test drive and it ran fine. I explained it normally only does the rough running / flashing warning lamp thing first thing in the morning. They want me to take it in on Monday and they will get me a loan car so they can keep mine overnight and try it first thing in the morning.
I wondered if it was the head gasket but I've checked for oil in the water and water in the oil and everything looks fine. If they can't find anything I will probably fit new spark plugs as it could be as simple as that.