Roughly How many Americans now living in Cuenca ? in Equador ?

According to the mayor of Cuenca, as reported by ABC News, there are about 4,000 Americans in a city of 500,000, .8% of the population.

If the mayor is correct, and even allowing that there are also some (though presumably smaller numbers) Canadians and Europeans -- that seems like a very small percentage to be causing as much economic disruption as is alleged.

I suspect there may be some exaggeration going on.

Bob

If you read the ebook recenbtly published on the Gringotree which reflects the average of several estimates and included work done by a local university, the number of expats is estimated at 2,500. The definition of expat is folks who live here permanently, or most of the time. That brings it down to 0.5%.

No matter which numbers you use, the expats are a very small percentage of the population to cause much of anything at all.  Such is the plight of minorities, only the bad aspects are exaggerated.  Wow. now I'm getting Kellogg's Mini Wheats commercials in Spanish.

I think it is unfair to blame the rising prices of some things in Cuenca on Gringos and I believe that 4000 expats is, if anything, on the high side at this time. The estimates range from 2500 to 5000. I saw an estimate that for every Expat moving to Cuenca, there were 7 Ecuadorians returning after a successful career out of Ecuador and and that they are in large measure responsible for rising costs of housing.

Totally unresearched and not much more than a SWAG
1.  World wide prices have gone up
2.  Even if the number is at .8%, the expat community would have to be loaded with riches to make such a negative economic impact on the cost of living.
3.  Import taxes are high
4.  Minimum wage increases
5.  Not real sure about the impact of returning Ecuadorians. Some come back with money and some have their house paid off, but others are coming back broke.  And it is not just in Cuenca that people are complaining of the rising cost of living.

My conclusion:
Blaming a particular group (us) for the rising costs is a simplistic answer to a very complex reality.

I'm resurrecting this thread from several months ago, since I came across some numbers from Cuenca HighLife

A June estimate of foreigners living in Cuenca by Ecuador’s mininistry of the exterior showed that U.S. citizens now comprise the largest group of immigrants in Cuenca. It also showed that there are about 2,000 official refugees from Colombia living in the city, here to escape the civil war in that country. The totals are:

U.S. citizens: 4,700; Colombians: 3,500; Peruvians: 2,150; Spanish: 950; Canadians: 575; Cubans: 525; Argentinians: 525; French: 250; Italians: 150; and Germans: 125.

That adds to about 13,500, so I'd say there's a ceiling of 14,000 allowing for handfuls from various other countries. About 2.5% of Cuenca's populace -- more than most of the estimates above, but still unlikely to have a huge impact on local prices.

But then there's the question of the definition of 'gringo': Is any foreigner (including Colombians and Peruvians) a gringo? You who are there can answer that, but my guess is no -- that most local people apply the term to people from North America and Europe. If that's the case, then the number of gringos is probably under 7,000 -- about 1.3%.

What about the additional numbers of foreigners who visit for extended periods (a couple weeks, a couple months) to decide if they want to make a permanent move to Ecuador?

With all the hype in travel magazines and on various web sites, you might have 10 to 20 foreign visitors, or more, to every foreigner who decides to stay. While the visitors would have little affect on real estate price increases, they would be just as likely to over pay for taxi rides, van transports, hotels, food, tour guides, etc., and the other foreigners who eventually make Cuenca their home.

Would Americans spend the cash to open a restaurant and charge American prices, if they didn't think their was a market for their services? .5% of the local population doesn't seem sufficient to keep a business running successfully. They'd have to know there is a steady flow of visitors from Europe and North America checking out Cuenca, who would be willing to pay inflated prices, unlike most locals.

When Americans like my wife and I sit at home viewing episodes of House Hunters International, we notice how many American real estate agents have packed up and headed off to foreign destinations to make their fortunes selling $100,000 properties for $300k to $400k to people who just sold their homes in the U.S. for $1.5m, and think they are still getting a bargain. It's the same perfect storm they created in 2003, when they colluded with appraisers and lenders and spiked real estate prices.

We have noticed that most of the warnings posted on this site have to do with Americans trying to sell inflated services to knew arrivals. I'd imagine there is a long line of locals also trying to climb on board any perceived gravy train. Home furnishings, cable and phone services, used automobiles, appliance salesmen, locals renting apts., cooks, cleaning services, tour guides, etc. Why stand back and let only Expats grab the money flowing into Ecuador. Economics suggest you ask yourself what the market rates are currently and what limits they will bare.

What was Costa Rica like in 1996, when my wife and I were close to moving their, compared with the cost of living in Costa Rica today? What was the driving force behind that change? Could the same happen in Ecuador?

What does the percentage of foreigners have to be to be disruptive to the local economy? Would the threshold be close to 5-7k permanent expats and another 30k to 40k foreign visitors, staying long enough to decide they need more time to think it over?

There is a reason countries like Ecuador and Costa Rica offered foreigners great investment deals to come and retire in their countries. They see a benefit. But they also know their needs to be limitations to prevent inflation that will negatively affect locals. There has to be a saturation point, wouldn't you think? Wouldn't the signs of that be when locals begin discussing their concerns about rapidly rising costs of goods and services? Or when they begin expressing anger towards those they believe are contributing the most to those rising costs?

Some sources claim there are seven times as many Ecuadorians returning home than expats showing up, and that the returners are the driving force behind the perceived inflation.

Perhaps the biggest problem is not necessarily foreigners in general, but rather the type of foreigners who are coming. Typically the first stage of foreigners that come are ones who are looking for a life change, learn to adapt, and adjust to their new environment. They integrate themselves, learn the language, or at least try. They don't try to change the country or culture. As a certain location gains popularity the incoming groups of people tend to be ones that don't want to adapt, or integrate. Think the world evolves around them, and that everyone is supposed to stop what they are doing to help them. Are very high maintenance, rude, inconsiderate, and treat the locals like stupid trash. Then when the locals laugh at them they spend all their time crying about how terrible the people, and country is.

This site will give you lots of good, current information about pensioner visa requirements in Ecuador:

http://yourescapetoecuador.com/relocati … migration/

What if that first stage, who has tried to adapt, tried to learn Spanish, and see themselves as nothing like the second stage, has contributed just as much to inflated prices and a disruption of the life locals once had? Just because some are content in Ecuador, and never complain about locals, doesn't mean they don't over pay for services and food and household appliances, or tip when they shouldn't, or pay too much for taxi and van rides, rent, home improvements, etc. They can come on Expat.coms and make statements about how wonderful everyone they meet in Ecuador is and how they love the culture and wouldn't dream of changing it, despite making day to day decisions that absolutely do affect the lives of Ecuadorians in a negative way.

I get that there are bad folks who make intentional decisions that disrupt the local economy and make natives struggle even more to get by. It just seems obvious that the group who points their fingers at them are doing much the same thing, only they seem oblivious of the consequences of their actions, thinking that their hearts are in the right place, and they don't mean any harm.

If builders start tearing down old apartments, that were renting for $85 a month to Ecuadorians, to build block after block of $500-$800 condo units specifically catering to foreigners, how do you suppose those Ecuadorians feel about having to pony up $150-$300 a month to rent another apartment? Yet, those foreigners will somehow feel that they had nothing to do with the disruption. They might even make a statement about how much nicer those blocks look after the old affordable apartments were torn down.

Ah I see your point. Think we are looking at things from different reference point. Was referring more towards some of the reasons why the mentality of locals towards foreigners is not always positive. From an economic perspective it stands to reason that the more developed, and the more convienences, resteraunts/bars, entertainment establishments etc. that become available then the prices will go up. Not really sure what the cost of living is in Cuenca, but would imagine it's probably much more than some place in Ecuador that no one has ever heard of. Of course the question is which one would have a higher standard of living, and that can be quite subjective, depending on what your looking for. I enjot Latin America, and have bought a lot of land in Panama, and perhaps will do the same in Ecuador down the road, but that all dependents on the price. Personally would never make a large investment in any Latin American country, because believe they always will be thirld world countries, and not worth the risk of a heavy investment. However am sure others feel differentely.

I was living in Costa Rica around the same time you and your wife were there. Actually a few years later, and is quite a shame the direction that country went, but there isn't really much you can do unless you want to forbid people to spend more than a certain amount. Is Costa Rica worth the price it cost these days? Probably not. Will Ecuador be worth the cost 15-20 years from now? Who knows? Would tend to think it probably won't be.

Part of the problem with any of these countries is the "price" culture shock for ExPats. My experience was with Panama. As a Canadian I went from paying five or six dollars for a single beer, to paying five dollars for a whole bucket of beers. Instead of ten dollars for a fast food meal I gorged on fabulous food for less than three dollars. Instead of ten dollars to go a block in a taxi I paid a dollar to go almost anywhere.

My reaction was to tip like I was back in Canada. It seemed more than reasonable to give my server a few dollars on a whole bucket of beers or a fabulous meal. I was soon warned not to give these "generous" tips and ten percent was the norm. To give a thirty cent tip on a three dollar meal made me feel cheap, but this is what the locals were upset about. When in Rome?

ChecMark wrote:

Part of the problem with any of these countries is the "price" culture shock for ExPats.

It's easy for us to fall into thinking in terms of US (or wherever home is) prices, and therefore overpaying. It's also inevitable that it will happen at times, and I don't think we need to beat ourselves up if we do it.

I visited a dental clinic located in an upscale mall popular with expats here in Cebu City. Lots of glass and modern furniture -- they had 'the look' down pat. After a cleaning (high-priced, but not outrageous) and exam, they suggested that I get several fillings, at 1500 pesos each (about $35). This would be a very good price in the US, but I had done my homework and knew it was double to triple the going rate. I thanked them politely and left -- I got the fillings (done quite well) at 500 pesos each.

But we can't know the 'right' price for everything, and it isn't worth haggling over small amounts. If I pay ten pesos for a banana from a street vendor that would cost a local five or six, I'm not going to get upset about being cheated, nor am I going to stay awake at night worrying about undermining the Philippine economy.

Bob

There are many lessons that can be learned from the economy of Costa Rica. From the early 90's to today, real estate has sky-rocketed. Casinos have been built. It's not unusual for an American couple to show up with $400k-$500k, looking for a vacation home and be told by a fellow gringo real estate agent, that they may have to "settle" for something a few miles away from the ocean, unless they are willing to pony up another couple hundred thousand dollars.

I don't think we should focus on something like over-paying a few cents for a banana. It's the spike in real estate prices, along with rent prices, that has the most profound affect on the people who will be serving you coffee in Cuenca. Eventually, the result is something like Aspen or Vail, Colorado. The wealthy live in comfort and luxury, and the people who serve them their meals and clean their homes, all have to live in a trailer 30 miles away, because they were priced out of the town because of the soaring real estate prices.

Part of the reason we chose to move to Flagstaff, Arizona, was because it was unique, as mountain towns go. Despite a large number of second homes, owned by wealthy people from Phoenix, the town has a rather middle to lower middle class feel to it. Some of the reason is the large number of students, and the large number of Navajo Indians. It's caused the town to look nothing like Aspen, and more like a less developed town that is a great vacation destination. There are loads of fast-food chains, pawn shops, dumpy run down motels, and a fair share of street people lingering about. We even got a Wal-Mart built despite the outcry of the well off crowd, who tried to convince the poor people they were too dumb to know those low priced Chinese goods were bad for the community, and they needed to support more mom and pops stores who would gouge them for 30% more.

I'm not trying to be cantankerous, I don't think. I don't pretend to know how to move to Cuenca and not disrupt the economy. Do I sell my $5000 mountain bike and buy a clunker in Cuenca, so I don't stand out or temp youngsters to steal my bike? Do I downgrade from watching high-def television on a 60" plasma tv, so I don't upset my landlord, especially when I insist I want a high-def DVR to record American football or movies? I've spent time in Brazil and I know how to blend in and not be marked or victimized. We don't dress flashy or wear jewelry. We don't currently live in a large home or in a great neighborhood. But we will eat out a lot and own some luxury items like a dishwasher and a laptop computer and flat-screen television. We will go jogging every day wearing nice running shoes while listening to music on mp3 players. That might be the most ostentatious thing we will do in public.

I'd be lying if I didn't say that I want a couple things from home with me in Cuenca. Is an expensive bike, a dishwasher, laptop, high-def tv, mp3 player and nice running gear, going too far? We're not looking for absolution. We just want to live a very active life, like we do here in Arizona, and try our best to adapt and blend in, should we make the move to Cuenca.

Rant over in 3...2...1...

Holy mackerel you have a $5,000 mountain bike? Oh snap.