Real Estate - Property Rentals

Johanna MacRae wrote:

Do you know your monthly consumption?  Do you read your meters on a monthly basis?  Could you state the number of units of electricity you consume on average per month?  Or the number of cubic metres of water per month?  That's what consumption is.  Please list them.  This is what we should be comparing.  All the information I have seen tells me that 500 units of electricity per month and 12 cubic metres of water per month for a family of 5 is pretty reasonable. 

I do not know what else to say to explain that cost does not equal consumption.


Do you know that ex tenants have had their bank accounts and salaries frozen 6 months to a year after leaving a property on good terms with their landlords?

I do not want to alarm you but the bills that you have been receiving may not be covering the entire period or may be amended at some future date.

I'm sorry, I have been here over 10 years. No I have not taken any notice of my consumption in units. My bills have always been about the same so I don't question it.
I see the bill everytime and it's paid as normal, no funny business going on what so ever.
We are on 2 different planets. My friends and people I speak to, say my bill is normal and the same as theirs (on DOMESTIC tariff) You friends say yours is normal, can we agree to differ please. Again, I am sorry for showing concern.

FIND OUT FOR SURE  - NOW NOT LATER

ASK THE QUESTION OF HOW MANY CONSUMERS ARE REGISTERED IN THE PROPERTY  - AND IF 0 YOU WILL BE PAYING FAR TOO MUCH - THEN ASK IF THE LANDLORD WILL ALLOW YOU ON THE BILLS AS A CONSUMER IF HE SAYS YES THEN GET HIM TO SIGN FORM H

IF HE SAYS NO THEN YOU GOT A PROBLEM

BELEIVE ME THIS HAPPENS ALL TOO OFTEN.... IT IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR MANY UNWARY NEW ARRIVAL TO MALTA

Do you have access to the bill?  If so, look at the top right hand corner of the bill.  If it says zero next to number of residents and Domestic next to Consumer scheme, you are on the incorrect rate. 

Plus, has the landlord approached you with Arms Form H, change in the number of residents or Arms Form F, change in the account holder?  If not, it is highly likely that you are on the incorrect rate.

Unfortunately, you need your landlord's permission to be put on the correct tariff.  It's worth a shot but be warned that many landlords are reluctant to change the no. of residents on the bill from zero.

Please join our Facebook group, Class Action Against Arms, for further information and assistance.

OR EVEN RESIDENTIAL  AND ZERO  EQUATES TO DOMESTIC IN TERMS OF USING THE ONLINE CALCULATOR


bottom line here is to do your research find out before you sign the contract as if you dont  then its too late and your stuck with it for the term of your lease - or lose your deposit.....

refusing to pay the bills can lead to court and garnishee orders against you (even without proof of actual or alleged debt) and once that happens expect to visit court on a regular basis

Okay, I found a meter reading... From 8th April-20th June, I used 447 units of electric and 7 units of water.

toonarmy9752 wrote:

how sure are you that you are on domestic rate and why are you still on it - 70 is very low for domestic rate

we are still on domestic since only I have malta ID card, yesterday my wife and son got notice to come and pick theirs, today I got to come and pick mine (updated with new address) and now we are waiting for baby to get his notice so that we pick all at once :d
need I say we all submited at the same time the papers?

from june 1. till june 30. I've spent 174 units of el. and 6 units of water
arms web site, landlord puts non-residental with persons registered 0 and it worked out 63.31e

I have put in my contract sentence that I have a right to apply for different tariff using arms form H so I do hope that all will work well and landlord will sign it (he did say that he will when I asked him at point of signing )

coxf0001 wrote:

RoyR5085 wrote:

Thank you all for this thread and although we have signed a contract and it asks only for me to submit the readings when we arrive it does not state what tariffs we will be on etc? I emailed the agent earlier and I received this...

"I am not sure on the rates since these change however you are on a normal rate thus not commercial. For the 2 one is looking at 50-60euro. It all depends how careful one is".

We are two people in a 3 bedroom maisonette and always careful with waste and usage but now a little concerned to where this could go when paying the actual bill and if the landlord uses a higher tariff or not?

Any advice is very welcome as is what questions should we ask now to find out before we get a surprise later in months to come?

Cheers,

Roy & Linda

That is what you have to watch out for...Landlords don't even know about the 2 tariffs (or don't want to admit.) It's not commercial and normal, it's domestic or residential. That is what you need to find out from the landlord. It will tell him on the bill.

https://www.smartutilities.com.mt/wps/p … 1MzBLMg!!/

I have emailed them again...waiting a reply from the landlord to tariff should be used and it seems it should be the lower one anyway 'residential' but we will see.

Hi Matthew,
Me again.
It seems it is not to whether it is commercial or normal but to whether it is domestic or residential and that we should be on the lower tariffs as renting?

Can you ask the landlord in regard to the:
1.    The tariff being used?
2.    Unit rates actual costs for:
    Electric:
    Gas:
    Water:
3.    Do you read your meters on a monthly basis? 
4.    Could you state the number of units of electricity consumed on average per month (previous tenants)?
5.    Or the number of cubic meters of water per month?

It would be very helpful today if we can establish this as we don't want any possible upsetting surprises going forward that is all.

Cheers,

Roy

His reply:

Good Afternoon,

I will forward the email to the owner and best he should reply as I would not be sure.

Gas is around 19euor and should last 3 months or so.

Meters are read once a month.

Regards,

Thanks for your guidance.

Roy

toonarmy9752 wrote:

bottom line here is to do your research find out before you sign the contract as if you dont  then its too late and your stuck with it for the term of your lease - or lose your deposit.....

It is incorrect to say that it is too late and you are NOT stuck with it for the term of your lease, as long as the landlord will sign form H to allow you as residents ARM's will change the tariff within 2 weeks (normally) as long as there are no problems. This can be done at any time within the term of you lease.

Things have moved on.  You are now no longer required to show an identity card to get the residential rate.  You can now produce a passport or most other kinds of identification.  Our group, Class Action Against Arms, was instrumental in achieving this for all the non Maltese.  (Since November 2013).

The non residential rate is exactly what it says it is.  It is the rate that is meant to be used by businesses, not the primary residences of people.  You are meant to be on the residential rate.  Your landlord does not know how to use the Arms online calculator.  If you look carefully, you will see:  If you qualify for the domestic rate, enter zero next to number of residents.  So Number of residents = zero is the domestic rate.  Number of residents = a number greater than zero is the residential rate.

No it is not incorrect.  It is illegal for Arms to give you the residential rate without the permission of the landlord.  Therefore you are at the mercy of the landlord and, unfortunately many landlords do not want to endorse Arms Form H for you.

The only bargaining power you have is before you sign the contract or, to an extent, before you start living in the rental property.

Hi Roy

I would ask your landlord if he would be willing to endorse Arms Form H, change in the number of residents.  Just to be clear.  Otherwise there is too much wriggle room. 

Remember that the residential rate is the rate you are supposed to be on.
The domestic rate is the extortionate rate that you are not supposed to be on.  But if you are on it, then no one does anything about it.  It is no one's fault but your own for not doing some research, you are told.

if he wont agree to signing form h after you have signed the contract it is too late

Johanna MacRae wrote:

Hi Roy

I would ask your landlord if he would be willing to endorse Arms Form H, change in the number of residents.  Just to be clear.  Otherwise there is too much wriggle room. 

Remember that the residential rate is the rate you are supposed to be on.
The domestic rate is the extortionate rate that you are not supposed to be on.  But if you are on it, then no one does anything about it.  It is no one's fault but your own for not doing some research, you are told.

Hi Johanna MacRae,
Thank you for everything. I will certainly will ask him to sign it but wondering what to do if he doesn't? Do you have a copy of it that you can email to me?

I will insist (as best as I can) that he puts us on the residential rate but do we get a proper bill which shows what rate we should be on anyway? Is he earning a profit from us?

Roy

Hi Roy

I tried to put the link for Arms Form H again but for some reason, it wasn't accepted.  I did put it in one of my comments in this very same thread. 

I don't know if you are on Facebook.  Our Facebook group, Class Action Against Arms, is fighting this very unjust insane billing system.  I would ask to join if I were you.  We have many experiences to share that could be useful to you.

As to whether he is earning a profit from you, possibly.  But, really what it comes down to is this dependence of the tenant on the landlord's permission to get the residential rate.  It is more likely that they feel it is not worth the hassle or that they are paranoid that Arms (the utility company) will tell the Inland Revenue that the property is not empty.  Which is not the case at all because of the Data Protection Act. 

Our group is fighting this and I have faith that we will prevail.  However, it may take a while.

Best regards
Johanna

I've copied the post with the link to Arms Form H. 

I would make absolutely sure that you take Arms Form H, change in the number of residents, to the signing of the rental contract.  Ask your landlord to endorse it BEFORE you sign the contract.  Otherwise you may be entering a nightmare legal scenario.  You will need a copy front and back of your landlord's id card too.

Arms Form H:  https://www.smartutilities.com.mt/wps/w  OD=AJPERES

So, it turns out Dux that you are not on the domestic rate.  You are actually on the non residential rate which is designed for businesses. 

Is your landlord aware of this?

Have you had access to your bills?  Does it say residential, domestic or non residential next to consumer scheme?

I would check it out.  It sounds as if your landlord does not know the score.

sure seems like dux might have a problem too - as non residential charges vat too... as its meant for commercial entities not residences

Duxx wrote:

toonarmy9752 wrote:

how sure are you that you are on domestic rate and why are you still on it - 70 is very low for domestic rate

we are still on domestic since only I have malta ID card, yesterday my wife and son got notice to come and pick theirs, today I got to come and pick mine (updated with new address) and now we are waiting for baby to get his notice so that we pick all at once :d
need I say we all submited at the same time the papers?

from june 1. till june 30. I've spent 174 units of el. and 6 units of water
arms web site, landlord puts non-residental with persons registered 0 and it worked out 63.31e

I have put in my contract sentence that I have a right to apply for different tariff using arms form H so I do hope that all will work well and landlord will sign it (he did say that he will when I asked him at point of signing )

should be approx 34 at residential rates
and about 54 at domestic

nb I have assumed three consumers

toonarmy9752 wrote:

if he wont agree to signing form h after you have signed the contract it is too late

Correct, if he will not sign, but that is not what your post, which I quoted, said.
It said once you had signed the contract it was too late, which is not true, if the landlord will sign the form at a later date then you are ok.

To give you an example, we have agreed on two occasions that the landlords would sign the form and we have signed the lease, we have then filled in the form after signing the lease and the landlords have signed it and taken it to the ARMs office themselves about a week later. No problem.

If you have doubts about the landlord then by all means get the form signed first!

in terms of being safe until such time as a landlord has earned your trust then my advise to anyone would be not to sign a contract until after agreeing (in writing) to sign form h - i have come across several people who have been in such a position where the agreement to sign form h was made verbally then later after they signed the contract they changed their mind....

foxglove      i stand by my statement as being true and correct -

bottom line here is to do your research FIND OUT BEFORE YOU SIGN THE CONTRACT as if you dont  then its too late and your stuck with it for the term of your lease - or lose your deposit.....

Johanna MacRae wrote:

I've copied the post with the link to Arms Form H. 

I would make absolutely sure that you take Arms Form H, change in the number of residents, to the signing of the rental contract.  Ask your landlord to endorse it BEFORE you sign the contract.  Otherwise you may be entering a nightmare legal scenario.  You will need a copy front and back of your landlord's id card too.

Arms Form H:  https://www.smartutilities.com.mt/wps/w  OD=AJPERES

Hi Johanna, many thanks but the link didn't work for me but have asked to join your FB group.
We are not expecting (hopefully) any problems with this but as we understand it we should be on the residential rate preferable as this being the lower cost anyway if he is on a domestic rate then we end up paying a lot more and if he isn't earning a profit then it could be that he gets a tax break or pays less VAT?? We will let you know how we get on.  Not sure what to do if he wont change or sign the form though?
Cheers and thanks.
Roy

it wont be a tax beak  - well not a legitimate one  - tax evasion is more likely.

How much is the different in cost in domestig and residential utilites? Our landlord says that it is just a few cents. Is that correct or is he lying?

Tommy

We get a bill every 2 months and the difference for us (2 people) is, - last bill was 105 euros with two residents and would have been 153 euros with no residents, that was around 400 units electric and 18 cubic meters water, which may be a little higher than average usage for water.

it depends on the units used and the number of people registered as consumers - my guess hes saying its only a few cents because he either doesnt know or is lying to get you sign ..... my best bet would be the latter....

do the calcs on the online calculator for residential at zero consumers and then do it again with the number of consumers in the property that should be registered as living there  -  the average consumption is about 4-4.5 units per day per person... i say that as its been pretty stable for us over 6 years.....in four very different apartments

It depends.  The greater the number of people living there, the greater the difference.

Just to give an example:  At the residential rate, you are allowed 33 cubic metres of water PER PERSON per year at the rate of 1.40 euro per cubic metre.  If you are a family of 5 you are therefore allowed 165 cubic metres of water per year at this price.

On the other hand, if you are on the domestic rate (no. of residents = zero), you are allowed 33 cubic metres of water per year at 2.19 euro per cubic metre and then you have to pay at 5.14 euro per cubic metre.  For a family of 5, 33 cubic metres is about 2.5 months' worth of water and then you are paying at the eye watering 5.14 euro per cubic metre.

In our case (a family of 5) at the residential rate, we should have been paying an average of 93 euro per month.  At the domestic rate, we averaged about 177 euro per month for exactly the same consumption.  So in our case it was about 100% more.

Well done Johanna we seem to have a success due to you and friends as my landlord has now agreed to change us from the higher rate (domestic) to the lower rate (residential)....excellent and thank you!!
Roy & Linda

FANTASTIC!  So very glad. 

Hi I am Marianne from (moderated : advertising is not allowed)

There have been developments on the insane Arms billing system.  Watch this space:

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/vi … lls.528991