Obtaining a property in Bali.

Why not just sell her 1.5 are and both of you start fresh with her 60k and your 60k?  In other words, why bother with the uncertainties of selling after building, and almost certain cost overruns building on her 1.5 are?  It sounds to me like you’re only complicating things.

It is the kind of risk that I would never take. I mean we do not know where the land is, and if it really is worth AU$60,000 and how close a friend this person really is. We also do not know if you will make a profit or loss if you ever do sell it, and also whether that friend of yours will split the profit with you. Basically I would do the same as Ubudian suggests, she sells the land and if she does get AU$60k for it then talk again with her about doing your project somewhere better.

Hi Ubudian,
To sell the land and start afresh was our (my) first thought.
But the land is there ready to be built on. She owns it freehold
(Hak Milik) I've seen the land and the title deeds. If all goes well
it should be completed and sold fairly quickly.
Why would you suggest there would be uncertainties of selling ?
No more or less than I would have thought for any property sale.
Almost certain cost overruns ? Is that true of all building projects ?

Hi Hanson,
If I were standing in your place, this would be the advice I would give.
I don't know if the land is worth $60000 and I will have her obtain a couple
of written estimates.
How could you know how close a friend this person is ? Even I don't know
that, but it's a calculated risk and I'm happy to take it.
For a total of 1.2K invested she believes it might sell for 1.8K (She does know
about this stuff) I'd be happy with 1.5K and the knowledge that we can make
this thing work.
Do I know she will split the profits with me ? Absolutely not, but again, it's a
risk I'm prepared to take.

“She owns it freehold (Hak Milik) I've seen the land and the title deeds.”

Obviously then she is Indonesian, and that’s fine.  I only mention that as confirmation that the Hak Milik is in her name.

You wrote in your first post, “The land is not somewhere a foreigner would
like to live.”  And now you are asking, “Why would you suggest there would be uncertainties of selling?”  Well, if the land is located somewhere that a foreigner would not “like to live” then your market in selling it or leasing it will be very limited…i.e., to locals only.

Moreover, 1.5 are is a very small plot of land to build a house.  You can forget about having a pool, or even a parking area for anything aside from a motorbike or two.   

“Almost certain cost overruns ? Is that true of all building projects?”

Obviously, by that question, you’ve never been personally involved in a building project here on Bali.  Yes, these days you can count on any building project having cost over-runs.  You can also count on “Murphy’s Law” (if it can go wrong, it will) having a part as well.   

“But the land is there ready to be built on.”

That’s no reason for you to build on it when you have the more viable option of selling it as raw land and moving on to a project you “both could be interested in.”   

Anyway, you asked for thoughts…and those are mine.

BillyTea wrote:

Hi Hanson,
If I were standing in your place, this would be the advice I would give.
I don't know if the land is worth $60000 and I will have her obtain a couple
of written estimates.
How could you know how close a friend this person is ? Even I don't know
that, but it's a calculated risk and I'm happy to take it.
For a total of 1.2K invested she believes it might sell for 1.8K (She does know
about this stuff) I'd be happy with 1.5K and the knowledge that we can make
this thing work.
Do I know she will split the profits with me ? Absolutely not, but again, it's a
risk I'm prepared to take.

Hi Billy,

If you are happy with the conditions then just go for it. It will certainly be interesting whether it works out well or not. The question you asked Ubudian about over-runs, almost certainly there will be. I've never built on Bali but the same thing applies to other parts of Indonesia. Be aware that some building contractors quote low in order to get the contract and then keep adding things on. Anyway, it seems you are happy to proceed with it so good luck and enjoy. You will surely learn a lot from your first project.

Thanks Hansson,
To be honest I plan to keep out of any negotiations.
The builders will not know that a foreigner is involved.
This lady is no fool and I suspect it will be difficult for
them to take advantage of her. (but what do I know ?)

"The builders will not know that a foreigner is involved."



Sure they will.  This is Bali...there are NO secrets in Bali! 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!   

Ubudian,
Your thoughts and ideas are much appreciated and very welcome.
Yes she is Indonesian, actually Balinese, and the Hak Malik is in her name.
Yes we believe we will be selling to locals, but "very limited " ?
Surely 90% of property sales in Bali will be by and to Balinese or Indonesians.
Although I believe that 40% of the luxury market is held by foreigners.
Yes 1.5 are is small. I believe it is 8mtr frontage running back 19mtrs or so
We were thinking of a 2 storey house with 2 bedrooms, but that is only
a rough idea.
No I've never been involved with a building project on Bali.
My questions regarding cost over-runs "Is that true of all building projects ?"
was meant to point out that if such things are common on Bali, the no matter
where we build, we'll have the same problem.
With the project costing in total $120k or so, I doubt we could do better,
and to cash up and look for something else for the same money might not
gain us anything.
Your thoughts again please.

Ok, smart ass, so they'll know. Can't do much about that.  I'll just try to be incognito.
I'm here to learn. So far you're doing a good job, and I really do appreciate your input.

I appreciate that you appreciate my input Billy.

As it is, I’m married to a Balinese and together with her and her family (famous for their alang alang roofs) we have done quite a number of building projects here on Bali over many past years, including off of Bali as well…viz, Sir Richard’s Necker Island.   

At this point you haven’t mentioned where this land is located, so further comments on my part would likely be more useful if you mentioned that detail.  Surely you know the golden rule when it comes to real estate…location, location, location. 

In any event, as your “partner to be” is Balinese, surely she has told you that the vast majority of Balinese live in their family compounds…and not in houses on 1.5 are plots.  The truth is, 1.5 are is barely enough for the family temples in a typical Balinese compound. 

The only Balinese I could envision being slightly interested in whatever type of home you might build on 1.5 are would be someone interested in it as an investment…to lease out.  Typically the kind of structure that would be built on your size property would be a kost or two or three…and it (they) would be rented out…most typically to other than Balinese Indonesians who are here temporarily for work.  Of course there are some Balinese temporarily displaced due to college or work that might be interested as well…but not to buy…only to lease. 

Once you build whatever it is you plan to build on that plot, you are limiting your market drastically…as you already said the location isn’t suitable or desirable for foreigners.  In my opinion you are far better off selling the land raw, and let the new owner decide what, if anything, they want to build…which for all you know might be a warung, a laundry, a shop…whatever…this again of course depending on location.

PS...an incognito bule on Bali?   

Cheers, and once again, good luck!

Ok, what you say makes sense.
Funnily enough the land was bought a little over a year ago and it was bought with
the idea of building a kost. She has the architects plans for the project. Her father
was to be her financial partner but became too ill to be involved. I imagine that it
would be one long building with several living units. I haven't seen the plans. The
idea was that she would manage the kost and that it would support her family. She
is divorced and has 3 kids. She also lost her well paid job this year.
The land is in Tabanan on the way to Tanah Lot.
We did consider building the kost together but the income from such a place would
be useless between the two of us, though I guess she could borrow money on the
equity for our next project. 
Ok so she sells it. Then she has $60000 and I have $60000. Suggestions ???
I wait with baited breath oh wise one.

“Ok so she sells it. Then she has $60000 and I have $60000. Suggestions ???”

She takes her 60k and invests it in one year certificates at her family’s village community bank where she can earn 12%...and you do the same with your money…banking or investing it in OZ.

If her land is saleable for what you say it is, then at 12% that works out to roughly 6 million IDR a month in interest.  Moving back to her family compound with her three kids, that is more than a reasonable amount to contribute to monthly compound expenses, and her kids are where they belong…with their ancestors and their living family. 

This personal stuff is none of my business, but, you asked.

Thanks for your time and your advice, Ubudian. I'll certainly
pass on the information you've given me.
Once again thank you.

No problem and good luck to both of you. 

Cheers, Roy

I've passed on your advice to my Balinese friend.
I don't expect to hear back until she's absorbed it.
Maybe tomorrow.
I do have one last question which will probably be
hypothetical now. That is, what is the best way to
send a substantial sum to Indonesia.
When I was there last week I tried to open an account
with ANZ in Denpasar. That's who I'm with here in Perth.
They tell me I have to deposit $2000 and they need
my passport and tax file number (which I didn't have)
I don't know that that's the best way anyway. Perhaps
there is a better ?

Generally speaking, foreigners need a KITAS (visa) and tax ID to open a bank account in Indonesia.  These restrictions generally have to do with concerns over money laundering and drug dealing. 

If a residency visa is not appropriate for you, leave your money in OZ and when needed for a large expenditure here, simply have your bank in OZ wire the funds to the appropriate bank account of whom you are paying here.  And, you can also keep in mind that whenever coming to Bali from OZ you can bring up to $10K (USD) with you without making a declaration.

just a thought tabanan is not an expensive area unless it has sea view , last year they were selling small to medium houses complete from 15k to 25k , your project seems expensive ? hmmmm

thanks roy

"last year they were selling small to medium houses complete from 15k to 25k"

Really?  I'd love to see some photos of those houses.

Well, there surely is no sea view !
Last I heard my friend is checking out builders.
She knows a couple, though they've never worked for her.
The idea is that she looks at what they've built and if she
sees something she likes asks how much ?

Do I read that correctly ? You're telling me a house in Tabanan
can be bought for $15000 to $25000 aud ? Hak Malik, complete ?

You're kidding, right ?

"you're telling me a house in Tabanan can be bought for $15000 to $25000 aud ? Hak Malik, complete ?"

Ask to see photos...as I did.   

1.5 to 3 era average perumahan houses 2 to 3 bed , the usual im sure you have seen this type of house on your travels in bali

Since you need a KITAS and Tax id to open both local and foreign bank accounts in Indonesia, you could transfer the money to your Balinese friend's account. Transferring a few hundred million rupiah to an Indonesian account is not a problem as I do it often from HSBC overseas to Bank Mandiri. HSBC just need to know what the transfer is for and I tell them it's for a house renovation. It's very simple.

yap 15 to 25 k , not a fancy villa you understand , but on 1.5 era what are you going to build ?

You mean like this "fixer upper special" for 450 million?  In AUD that's about $45,000.   

http://www.rumah123.com/detil-rumah-dij … mitula-cpc

dont look at what people are asking for the property , its the price they are getting which is important , its well known that prices have crashed in certain areas of bali

Thanks Hansson

"its well known that prices have crashed in certain areas of bali"

Not to the point of 15 to 25K for a complete house.  Not yet anyway.   

BTW, that house I linked to above...did you note the size of the plot? 

But hey, if you find a decent house on 1.5 are of land anywhere in Tabanan for 15 to 25K AUD, by all means please let me know.  We always have our eyes open for give away bargains!   

Ok, don't bother with photos, give me a couple of addresses
and agents name. I'll have her take a look and get the price.
(unless she's gone off the whole idea)

nope new houses , in fact a lot of developers of perumahans in that area have problems now bcs of lack of demand  , I personally dont like tabanan area, lack of facilities , beaches etc , I have no fotos but around Taman griya area there was many posters about the developments , cheap houses for normal people etc etc

Not if I get there first  Roy

OK, Taman Griya...Jimbaran...here's some ads for them. 

http://www.rumah123.com/rumah-dijual-di … ya-badung/

The cheapest one is 650 million (an old house).  Do you seriously think it could be had for 15 to 25K AUD?  That would be between 150 to 250 million.  I don't think so.

the reason why the developers posted in taman griya is bcs tabanan was so cheap ie sell your house buy a similar one and pocket the change , logic ya ?

I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying your statement that a decent house on a minimum size plot anywhere in Tabanan can be bought for 15 to 25K AUD. 

But, I'm happy to be proven wrong...which is something you have yet do.

as I said this was last year when I passed thro taman griya , there was posters everywhere , I never kept one bcs I dont like the place , Banyuwangi, a neighbor of mine bought a fixer upper 4 months ago 3 era 2 bed 3000$ , but its not my cup of tea  so I never kept the info also . .

Banyuwangi is in East Java...not Bali.  You're comparing apples to oranges my friend. 

I'm wondering...those posters you say you've seen...I'm betting they were the down payment with seller financing.

But hey, if you're a believer I've got this old bridge I left behind in New York when I moved here many moons ago.  I'd sell it cheap!   

Cheers!

" I've got this old bridge I left behind in New York "

Well, bugger me ! I've always wanted an old New York bridge.
How much do you want for it ???

the original point of the post was the gentleman referring to his potential investment in Tabanan, which I thought was rather expensive  , I wanted him to look more deeply into the project , at the end of the day to try and help him not to overpay if he chose to take that route ,