Building outside of Loja

aerialone wrote:

I am considering buying a larger parcel of land 15 min. south of Loja to build a place for my family to live.  I appreciate any advice or precautions and wonder if anyone can recommend a trustworthy adviser that I might consult before making any costly mistakes.

Dear Aerial One,

Welcome to the Ecuador forum.

You are wise to recognize the importance of getting good advice and avoiding costly mistakes.

Especially -- as indicated in your profile -- as a retiree planning to come to Ecuador in an extended family of nine across three generations.

Even though you have visited Ecuador before .. or may have built projects in the U.S. before .. it's important to recognize that building in La República is a complicated proposition.

Building in Ecuador is complicated by language barriers .. eccentricities of the culture .. arcane rules overseen by opaque bureaucracies .. and the fact that in a place the size of Loja you typically can't just drive over and pick up all the supplies you need at a local Loew's or Home Depot.

Additionally, living in Ecuador is extremely different from visiting Ecuador.  Not everybody adjusts.

More than a few eager Expats have been confounded -- and sometimes defeated -- by what they encountered in the property-acquisition and building processes.

I strongly suggest that you follow The #1 Rule For Arriving Expats in Ecuador....

Do not buy or build on property here until you have lived in the target area for at least one year.

cccmedia in Quito

Thank you CCC Media...   Yes I agree and your advice is very sound indeed.  I have only been in Cuenca and loved it but too cold for my wife.  I have lived in 3rd world countries (Thailand/Philippines) and I seem to adapt quickly and do not have unreasonably high expectations.  My wife is from Philippines and she also appreciates her blessings and does not complain or expect luxury.  Our children are in college and may or may not join us... but I want to make that an option and a possibility for the entire family to merge as some are still in Philippines and some in USA.  Because of age and children the ones in Philippines can not come to US but could come to Ecuador.  I think the Philippines is much more dangerous than most places and life would be better in Ecuador.  My wife speaks 5 languages with one being Spanish but she is not fluent and the only one that can presently speak it.  I would like to make a move before I am too old.  I have been processing information for 3 years and I agree that living there one year before making a decision is by far the wisest.  I'm just getting impatient I guess and wanted to make a real effort.  Living there for one year works easier for a retired couple than it would for a family.  It's actually a bit complicated and still trying to put the puzzle together.  A good point duly noted is construction material availability.  I will not be able to look into that until I physically come there.  I am sure there will be many hurtles.. hence my need for a knowledgeable adviser.    There are also water, sewer, electric, and availability of high speed internet questions I have for the site that I want honest answers to before I commit to a purchase.   Again... the 1 year advise is still the best... and I get that.  Maybe I can do at least part of that, but still need an adviser.

I don't doubt that if Loja -- or any other place in Ecuador -- is right for you and your family, you will be able to network your way to the resources necessary during that first year in EC.

You probably can't effectively research building-materials now, but as a retiree, you can learn a lot of Spanish between now and the back end of Year 1.

cccmedia in Quito

Please take the advice of cccmedia

I am a retired engineer who has helped out many many people such as yourself who got into trouble because the builder was either :
1, Under qualified or exaggerated qualifications.
2, Losing money because his fixed price bid was too low.
3, Provided quality acceptable to the country but not to western standards.

Live in the community. Listen to advice regarding contractors (including other contractors), observe sites under construction and take pictures, wait for people to prove they can be trusted not just because they speak English and have an agreeable personality. Remember prostitutes often speak very good English but they didn't learn it in a university.

Long after the contractor has gone you can be plagued but electrical, plumbing and sewer problems that were not evident when you moved in. Check guarantee's and if they can be enforced legally (often they cannot).

Please please don't underestimate the pitfalls of what you are planning, small mistakes can be very expensive.

Consider finding an architect, negociate a "turn key design/construction contract" and have him supervise the entire construction.  An architect will want to protect his reputation unlike a contractor.

Les has good advice    and obviously it's based on experience.

But consider the currently less-obvious choice for when you get to Ecuador -- long-term renting.

With such lack of clarity about how many members of the family will be living in Ecuador at any one time, renting a year at a time would provide much more flexibility for the 'troop movements'  over the years.

If there is an unforeseen problem -- for example, a neighbor bringing 24/7, loud, barking dogs into the neighborhood -- a renter can move.

Renting would also eliminate the potential big headache down the road -- selling.

cccmedia in Quito

Thanks les64.   

Thank you also for the great advice.  I do fully understand the issues you point out as well and appreciate there are many  dangerous black holes I am unaware of.  I am not minimizing any of them.  On the other hand... I have to make the first step.  Normally the one year rule is golden..but my situation is different as I have no time and can not leave because of family and economic responsibilities.  I have not watched television since I retired 10 years ago and I spend every minute on important issues on a priority basis.  My major goal is to make it possible to unite my family in Ecuador.  I would not start construction until I have done much more research as you suggested nor could I build until I liquidate some commercial properties I presently have. What I am looking for now is advice on a large rural property, based on it's location, available utilities, and building potential.  The structure will come when I sell US properties and have some breathing room in time and money.  My wife is a Civil Engineer and understands the importance of careful planing.  My immediate goal is to make a good decision on the land purchase.  Although construction is a huge consideration,  only the lands location, characteristics, water quality, utilities and potential for building is the immediate concern.  At least then I will have a starting point established for the goal.

I agree that renting is a great idea... but my retirement status is extremely hectic, and it's not like I am sitting around watching TV.  I have not had a television for 15 years.... I had no time when working and running a business, and I have even less since retiring and buying some commercial properties.  Retirement sucks.  Hope to make it better before it's too late. 

aerialone wrote:

I had no time when working and running a business, and I have even less since retiring and buying some commercial properties.  Retirement sucks.  Hope to make it better before it's too late. 

Dear A-1 ... as in Type A personality ...

You only think you're retired.

A friendly heads-up ... you could face the need for a major adjustment when you 'retire' to Ecuador.

For anything more complicated than buying fruit, things here move at about 20 percent of the pace you may be used to.  And that's on a good week.

The language barrier is part of it ...  the bureaucracy too.   So are the mañana attitude ... the lunchtime siesta break...and the values -- family-over-achievement being an important part in  the South American psyche.

Patience ... Spanish-language learning ... and honoring the cultural differences will go a long way when you arrive here for good.

I wouldn't unload my plate in the U.S. just to then overload it when you get here.

cccmedia in Quito

aerialone wrote:

I agree that renting is a great idea... but my retirement status is extremely hectic, and it's not like I am sitting around watching TV.  I have not had a television for 15 years.... I had no time when working and running a business, and I have even less since retiring and buying some commercial properties.  Retirement sucks.  Hope to make it better before it's too late. 

Not sure where those commercial properties are, but if not in Ecuador and you plan to manage them from Ecuador you will probably need to hire someone in the USA to do it for you.  Could be a big problem.

Thanks for that information CCC.  I have heard about the slow pace, but never heard of the 20% speed rate.  On a couple occasions while in Cuenca, I watched construction workers and I did have to laughed and even called my wife over to watch how slow they worked.  Now that I think back... I can believe the 20% rate may be accurate. You are right, that would be one pace that would take some major adjustment for me. 
I have actually spoken with a worker I often hire here in the US. He is from Mexico City and speaks only some English...but enough to communicate.  He would be interested in going to Ecuador as well and is actually quite excited about it.  His building partner is American and speaks pretty fluent Spanish and he too was on board to go to Ecuador for building projects.  If I hired a local architect to oversee these two and these two supervised and monitored quality control, that would cover the communication barrier as well as work quality and supervision,  but would these two be accepted by local workers as supervisors etc?

That's creative thinking.  However...

The maestros in Ecuador tend to have their own trusted crews.  The team typically works together as a unit.  They know the ins-and-outs of doing construction in their local area and have developed comfortable roles in getting something done.

Personally, I'd prefer to avoid the obvious issues and also the unintended consequences of bringing in construction workers form Mexico.

The obvious issues include dealing with visas .. forcing a maestro to work with inconocidos .. providing food, lodging and expenses for the workers ... and the likelihood that bureaucratic/legal/technical issues would produce delays during which the Mexicans would be idled.

As for the unintended consequences, who knows?  I just know unexpected stuff would likely come up and I wouldn't want to go there.

cccmedia in Quito

Yes.... that makes sense... as I have no feel for the technical issues that may ensue.  The Mexican is from Mexico but has been in the US for 20+ years working.  He also has crews here and is called "Maestro".  I didn't realize that was actually a title for a supervisor of sorts.  Anyway...  I too am concerned of the extra costs of lodging, food, transportation, etc etc.. and of course not knowing the rules of the land.  My concern is the 20% pace of the locals,  but as I said before.. the construction may be a year after the purchase of the land so that I would have ample time to carefully plan to avoid as many unknowns as possible.  An option I had not thought about is to rent for a year while studying and planning the land site and the culture.  That is a great suggestion and something I am strongly considering now that I had not before.

Dan

The next year or two are a particularly bad time to bring in workers from another country.

In normal times, Ecuadorians object to foreigners potentially taking jobs that could go to lesser-skilled locals. 

At the moment, young Cubans are streaming into the country and Venezuelans are trying to.  The EC economy is reeling from depressed prices for oil producers .. a budget crisis .. and various natural disasters.  It's gotten to the point that El Presidente has already been letting it be known that he doesn't expect to seek re-election in 2017.

Foreign workers below the professional level may find it hard to get non-immigrant work visas and licensing, now more than at any time in recent history.

cccmedia in Quito

cccmedia wrote:

The next year or two are a particularly bad time to bring in workers from another country.

In normal times, Ecuadorians object to foreigners potentially taking jobs that could go to lesser-skilled locals. 

At the moment, young Cubans are streaming into the country and Venezuelans are trying to.  The EC economy is reeling from depressed prices for oil producers .. a budget crisis .. and various natural disasters.  It's gotten to the point that El Presidente has already been letting it known that he doesn't expect to seek re-election in 2017.

Foreign workers below the professional level may find it hard to get non-immigrant work visas and licensing, now more than at any time in recent history.

cccmedia in Quito

El Presidente not running for re-election is an indication that future projections are not good.

I seen El Presidente make his announcement about a week ago but may or may not run in the future.  I guess he was tired of dealing with the negativity of recent months.  It's concerning for me, because he had Ecuador's future as his personal concern.  It is not possible to keep everyone happy all the time. Infrastructure progress has been incredibly positive under his leadership.  If Ecuador returns to the way it was before Correa or corruption sets in,  I will have made a big mistake by moving there.  Still the US will not survive much more of Obooboo, so no countries seems to be stable anymore.
As for local employment, of course I would plan to hire locals,  it's the know-how of assumed American standards that I would want incorporated into a home I was building that locals may have insufficient knowledge of.  I'm a long ways away from building, so I will have plenty of time to check out local builders etc.

aerialone wrote:

of course I would plan to hire locals,  it's the know-how of assumed American standards that I would want incorporated into a home I was building that locals may have insufficient knowledge of.  I'm a long ways away from building, so I will have plenty of time to check out local builders etc.

You're right.  The standards for residential construction in Ecuador are typically considered at least a notch below what's common these days in metropolitan areas of the USA and Canada.

I'm pleased to read that you're subscribing to a mode of patience and caution, Dan.

cccmedia in Quito

All your advice has been helpful.  Thank you.....

Dan

A word of caution in regards to building your home: There are now building codes in place in Ecuador that must be followed in order that both the builder and later buyer are protected. Granted, many homes have been/are being built without those codes being followed, but I would advise that you find out the codes, relevant to your home and area, and follow them. I have a friend who purchased a gorgeous home, a few years back, this is about 35 miles south of the are you are considering building. After awhile, her house began to shift, and it is now a huge mess with huge cracks running through it in all directions, tiles falling off and terrible leaks. In order to get satisfaction for her loss, she has begun the long process of beginning court proceedings against the builder/seller. It will take years for her case to make it through court.

Long story made short: Do it right, don't cut corners and follow the building codes!

Great post, Susan.

This cautionary tale is a compelling reason why Gringos coming to Ecuador should usually rent, not buy, their home .. unless they consider it absolutely necessary to buy.

It's not just the construction itself, it's the daunting process to rectify the legal deficiencies as well.

cccmedia in Quito

I have to say, however, that buying a home doesn't have to be a terribly difficult situation, and it can be done successfully. But I would never suggest that anyone attempt purchasing in Ecuador without first having secured the help of a knowledgable and recommended lawyer to help them through the process. I was luck in that I got exactly what I wanted, a refurbished adobe, exactly where I wanted it, and for a great price. It can be done.

Thank you Susan.  Good advice for sure... of course I am planning on fully complying with building codes and recommendations.  Nothing will happen quickly and now I am trying to schedule a 3 month period where my wife and I can confirm that Loji is our target and that the land we find will meet our present &future needs and desires.  Thank you for sharing your friends unfortunate experience of the house built before codes were in place &/or enforced.  Such an experience would be a huge burden that no one wants to experience.

I can tell you right now, language will be a barrier between Mexicans and Ecuadorians. I am Guatemalan and it took me a good 3 months to understand everything of what most Ecuadorians were saying. They have a different vocabulary and it can be frustrating.

Also, building practices are different here than in both the US and Mexico. One thing I've noticed is that some homes radiate cold (concrete) where others conserve heat (use of skylights/ south or north facing Windows).

Keep in mind too that Loja is about 9 hours from the nearest international airport. These are all things that you will discover living here some time.

I don't recommend bringing your own crew. You will be paying for them to have an experience of a lifetime, but will waste a lot of money waiting for them to become educated in the locals laws and building practices. Come here, integrate into the community, and hire a local, competent person who knows what they're doing.

Just to give you a benchmark, we rent a 6 bedroom home in Vicabamba and pay $420 per month. It's secure, and in town and unfurnished. It lacks many of the conveniences we had in the states like a dishwasher, a double kitchen sink, a hot water heater (it has suicide showers, calefones are fickle anyway I prefer the electric) or window screens. It still is in a beautiful location and has million dollar views of the mountains. We've been in the country for two years and would never go back for the world.  Just my 2 cents worth.  Good luck in your plans!

Thank you Xoie,  I appreciate your input and advice.  As soon as practical I am planning to come to Loji for several months.  I am at a huge disadvantage in that I speak no Spanish, but I have been many places (incl. Ecuador) that I did not speak the language and got along fine.  Of course I would plan on learning if living there.   During this time I will make connections with local English speaking advisers etc and confirm the area is where I want to settle with my family.  I am trying to liquidate commercial property in the US, so still have a way to go.   We do not presently have or want dishwasher and other typical luxuries,  but I am curious...  what is a "suicide shower"?  and "calefones".  I admit... I do like hot water in a shower, but have lived in areas it was not the norm.

Calefones are gas on-demand hot water heat. They are in most nicer rental properties. We had one in Cuenca but constantly had cold showers as they need to be meticulously calibrated to work consistently. "Suicide showers" aka "widow makers" are electric water heaters that mount directly on the shower head. In years past if you reached up to adjust the setting on the shower head you would frequently get a shock!  Not enough to kill you of course but it is unnerving as your standing in a puddle of shower water.  The bad thing about them is they can only heat up water as it flows thru the head and typically this means high water pressure gets you a cooler water temp. The place we recently moved into tho has nice ones. High water pressure and high heat, so If you go this route splurge on a better model.

xoie wrote:

Calefones are gas on-demand hot water heat. They are in most nicer rental properties. We had one in Cuenca but constantly had cold showers as they need to be meticulously calibrated to work consistently.

I have an electricity-only condo apartment with a calefon so apparently these are not restricted to gas-fired devices any more.

It's worth it to install a higher-end calefon.  This is not an area to skimp.  The unit that came with my brand-new apartment in 2013 was substandard and it burst spontaneously, flooding the apartment while I was in Mariscal.  Mold later formed and had to be remediated.  Walls had to be re-painted.  Carpeting had to be torn out and replaced with wood or faux-wood flooring.

I bought a better calefon and -- knock wood -- no problems in the year-plus since.

FYI, I had the plumber put the new unit in the shower so I could have better control over the water temperature.  The malfunctioning calefon had been in the kitchen.  The switch to the shower location has worked well although it now takes a minute to get water to heat in the kitchen.  The new unit has a digital readout showing the temperature of the water in the shower.

cccmedia in Quito

xoie wrote:

"Suicide showers" aka "widow makers" are electric water heaters that mount directly on the shower head. In years past if you reached up to adjust the setting on the shower head you would frequently get a shock!  Not enough to kill you of course but it is unnerving as your standing in a puddle of shower water.  The bad thing about them is they can only heat up water as it flows thru the head and typically this means high water pressure gets you a cooler water temp. The place we recently moved into tho has nice ones. High water pressure and high heat, so If you go this route splurge on a better model.

Suicide showers are not a product for the Gringo market, IMO.  Saving a few bucks is not worth it if you have to go through the experience of standing in shower water and getting an electrical shock if you touch the aparato.

I once rented a Quito apartment with a suicide shower for a few weeks .. used it once or twice .. experienced the shock .. and never used it again.  I substituted a system involving heating water in the microwave .. and using soap and a washcloth away from the shower.

Strongly advised -- use higher-end calefones instead.  $350 might be the right ballpark.

cccmedia in Quito

This is true. I guess the gas ones are becoming obsolete. Note to self though, in the event you do get your hands on a gas calefone, make sure to position it in a well ventilated area as carbon monoxide poisoning is an issue. Many people put them outside.

That was very interesting, thank you !  In SE Asia the nice places have electric heaters but not in the shower head, but a separate box large enough to heat water on demand with the std. 220 V current.  The individual gas heaters are available in the US.  I dont know anyone that has one because they are expensive, but they are also reliable.  Thanks again for the interesting info.!