WHY do Retirement Visas cost so much ??

I met an expat a couple of days ago who has been living in Bandung for a very long time. He told me that he has a Retirement Visa. He then went on to explain that in Jakarta it would have cost him 16 million whereas in Bali it only cost him 8 million. So he got it in Bali.

Based on that, I'd say that 9.5 million is still reasonable. But of course you could shop around a little.

Bruce, two factors are involved with the cost of a retirement visa. 

Factor one…you need a licensed visa agent to sponsor your retirement visa, and their fees will vary from agent to agent.

Factor two…the visa is good for a full five years.  Add up the cost of a normal one year residency KITAS visa, multiply that by five, and add on a fee, and you’ll realize that the retirement visa is fairly priced. 

Hansson, the story you heard from that expat in Bandung is utter BS.  There is NO way any of the three immigration offices in Bali would issue a retirement visa for an expat living in another Province of Indonesia.  Of course the person could have falsely declared their residence address as being here in Bali, but that would be against the law…deportation at the least being a certainty.  Moreover that person would have had to engage a local Bali based licensed agent to act as his sponsor…thus putting that agent in potential peril.   

Even within Bali expats need to apply for their immigration matters at the proper office based on the regency where they reside on Bali.

thank you Ubudian, factor two makes sense. I was referred to guy on Bali who said he has to work through Lombok guy as I plan to live on Gili Trawangan and the Bali guy said I might not have to employ maid OR have to provide lease on house.

You may very well be right Roy.

Actually I only talked with him for a couple of minutes at a bakery. I was just buying some sandwiches and cakes for us and the kids and bumped into him. Apparently he always goes to that bakery because they make excellent bread and butter croissants. Possibly he used to live in Bali and got his retirement visa there, and then much later relocated to Bandung. He didn't go into details. But he has been working in a very high level job in Indonesia for more than 20 years, speaks Sundanese too.

Anyway he seemed like a nice guy and that's all I care about. The rest is unimportant to me.

Understood.

I was a bit concerned with your first post as it implied that by shopping around to various immigration offices, one might be able to save some cash.

That is not the case. 

Cheers!

No need to be concerned Roy. I didn't think it polite to start interrogating him in the bakery about his visa process and there was quite a queue at the cashier. But I thought it interesting that he mentioned the large difference in costs between Bali and Jakarta, something I wasn't aware of.

I'm not really into criticizing other expats or arguing either here or with people I meet in the real world. I don't like to spend my time doing that. Whether this fella did something illegal or not to get a cheaper price for his Retirement Visa, well it's none of my business and I don't care. It is not important to me. There may be factors that we know nothing about.

I'm not into arguing either, but at the same time, I did not want to let the inference that one can shop around at various immigration offices for a better price on a retirement visa stand without it being clarified that this cannot be done.

That was the basis for my concern.

If there are differences in price, it'll be the agent fees, not immigration.
Immigration have cleaned up their act, so corruption is a thing of the past.
However, that doesn't mean agents won't try to rip you off.

You are probably right except, the bit about corruption being a thing of the past. That still goes on in some cities.

I've heard rumour about other places, but I can say Tangerang and Jakarta's main immigration offices are corruption free in my experience.
I'll go further, saying they've been extremely helpful on so many occasions, never even so much as hinting they wanted cash for any of the things they did.
I see immigration as a great credit to the new Indonesia.

I hope that all immigration departments will be corruption free one day. Then I will also see them as a credit to Indonesia.

I am sorry to burst your bubble.
Right now, the corruption method is "polite" or halus method. There are always winners and losers.

There will be time when corruption is a thing of the past. But it hasnt happened yet.

The top 5 corrupt system here happened to be all government functions:
~ judicial
~ traffic
~ immigration
~ provincial
~ goverment officials pns

Yes Enduringworld, I agree that the corruption method is more the "polite" method. A very good term for it. It is more subtle than before but of course it still exists.

No offence Fred, but there are probably tens of thousands of expats that go through the process of visa applications and if your own experience is one of finding no problem with corruption, that does not mean it does not exist. That is just one experience in tens of thousands.

The government is trying hard to eradicate corruption and it is certainly working in many areas, although the possibility to pay to "fast-track" still exists in many departments, although less and less all the time. Online applications are replacing over the counter applications in many government departments and that certainly reduces the possibility of corruption. But the way many departments do it is to take forever to process applications which opens the way for fast-track payments..

The reason why immigration is slow to stop corruption is because their clients are expats and therefore "rich" and to a certain extent they answer only to themselves.

But I am hopeful that one day it will be eradicated.

With regards to corruption within immigration, my own recent experiences dovetail with Fred.  Of course I am only referring to immigration offices and officials on Bali. 

It would be very fair and very accurate to state that on Bali, immigration is close to being 100% corruption free. 

I can state this with a high degree of confidence based on a number of factors…

-Discussions with my wife’s uncle who has been an immigration officer on Bali for as long as I’ve lived here.

-Feedback from numerous other expats with recent business at immigration.

-An almost virtual absence on other forums discussing recent cases of corruption by immigration authorities.

Compared to years past, immigration is as different today as night and day.  But of course, one would have to have lived here for a long time to fully appreciate how much they’ve cleaned up their act.

Hansson wrote:

No offence Fred, but there are probably tens of thousands of expats that go through the process of visa applications and if your own experience is one of finding no problem with corruption, that does not mean it does not exist. That is just one experience in tens of thousands.

None taken, but it isn't just my experience.

I've been in and out of many immigration offices of late, deliberately talking to people I meet, none of whom have complained about corruption, but two were really bugged because they could get what they wanted.
The fact their family members were being deported suggests bribes were not being paid, at least in those cases.
There are notices in every immigration office that state no bribes will be accepted, and price lists above every payment desk so clients are fully aware of the correct prices.
There is no argument about the corrupt past of Indonesia's immigration department, but the offices I've been dealing with are being very clear about their new policy and I've heard nothing negative from mates around the country, suggesting their local offices are equally corruption free.
All I've heard from the opposing argument is rumour and innuendo, but not a single verifiable fact, and absolutely no attempt to do anything about the claimed corruption.

The KPK is only a phone call away so they could kick up a stink with ease, but mouse farts are louder than the complaints, save one on a travel forum from a one post wonder, who turns out to be a liar and an overstayer with a chip on his shoulder, telling the world how he couldn't get the correct visa because there is no Indonesian embassy in Taiwan.

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic- … nesia.html

What's that smell? Not sure but there's a relieved looking male cow over there.

http://www.smiletravelvietnam.com/indon … -in-taipei

The form of "corruption" that is happening you really wont believe it.

The ones you are mentioning is overt and visible. Of course it is improving. And I am glad it is improving.

The ones I mentioned is really ingenious corruption.
They happened all across the board and I have seen it happening majorly in 2015, in a big way.

I wont be discussing in an open forum.
I might tell you if I know you personally. But it is a time waster long list of happenings to explain.
But it is an open secret among Indonesian. What oftens is an open secret among the people, Indonesian authorities often turns a blind eye or claim ignorance. It is a means to an end.

Of course it is good to be or stay optimistic. There are always good people or good system in a whole heap of bad apples/stuff.

Well you've got me there Fred. I won't stand outside the immigration department asking foreigners if there was any bribery involved.

You are referring to only certain offices that you have dealt with and I doubt other foreigners really would want to talk to a stranger about what goes on in their own case.

It is also a big no-no to talking about personal experiences here on a public forum if the experience at immigration was negative.

For the KPK, it is useless to report anything to them unless you have conclusive proof. Recording a conversation on your handphone voice recorder may not be enough and if you happen to get caught recording the conversation by one of several immigration officers who are watching you, then you can kiss goodbye to your Visa and any chance of living in Indonesia.

The way that bribes are done is different these days, no more direct asking. There are insinuations of  how much it would cost to get it completed because of a problem with the application. Problems in the process which is no fault of yours and will take a long time to fix, unless a fine is paid and then the process can be completed quickly. Whatever, there are umpteen ways that bribes can be suggested. Gone is the smiling face that asks for a few million rupiah to complete it quickly. Officers need to be more crafty now.

Fred, I am sure that immigration is really cleaning up, but it is far from over. Jakarta and Bali are the two main centers for applications and they will be more under the spotlight than others.

I would prefer that you said that from your experience and from a few people you have spoken to that you feel there is not much corruption in immigration, especially at the Jakarta HQ or wherever you go, but you cannot speak for all the other cities and provinces in Indonesia. You can only speak for your own experience and perhaps a handful of foreigners that you have spoken to. That does not warrant such a massive sweeping statement about the immigration and corruption in Indonesia.

But making statements that corruption in immigration it does not exist unless proof is given to you, here in a public forum, is just not going to happen. You may believe whatever you want, but you are really in no position to make such sweeping statements.

Again, no offence meant.

Regards,

Honestly Fred, I know it happens, you say it doesn't. I know I am right and you say you are right. We're not going anywhere with this immigration issue. Probably better to just leave it alone.

No doubt it is improving. But there are still way more progress to be made. The imperative is really hoping the the powers to be does not lose the momentum. Rather than be satisfied with the current gains only.

From the website below.
"Launching the 2015 CPI results yesterday, Akhbar revealed that the republic improved by 19 spots from last year to sit at 88 among 168 countries."

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/mala … ansparency

Interesting to note, reading Hansson account reminded me of how I have seen "corruption" in China. China did it with more class though on the exchange of money or favours, or on how to get things done. You will be stupid if you do it with no brains, with death penalty and wealth confiscation.

I was reminded on how easy to do anything in Singapore. When I was a kid, even a 10 year old can do his own passport and visa alone in Singapore. Piece of cake. Hassle free.
Most Indonesian embassy overseas are cleaner, because the laws in that country prohibits these kinds of activities.

Can Indonesia be like that in the future?

Enduringworld, I must say that I find your recent post about this “secret” corruption which is apparently known to Indonesians, but not to those of us who have spent decades living here to be comedic entertainment.  While I do enjoy a good fictional account of conspiracies and such, your post paints a picture of corruption that for some reason is totally out of view to the “rest of us” even though some of those “rest of us” are in fact Indonesian citizens with family members in various level of government.

In any event, I am certainly interested in learning more about this “ingenious corruption” that you mention, so please write to me via Private Message if that is more comfortable for you.  And, since you say that this “ingenious corruption” is a “long list” you can start with just a few of your favorites.   

Hansson, one objective way you can convince yourself that corruption within immigration departments in Indonesia is well down from days gone by is to review other forums relating to Indonesia.  The fact is, accounts of corruption by immigration written about on those other forums is way, way down from just five or more years ago. 

You wrote,

"It is also a big no-no to talking about personal experiences here on a public forum if the experience at immigration was negative."

I disagree.  Starting myself 18 years ago on the "The Bali Travel Forum" which was founded by the late Peter Rieger (and the first forum dedicated to Bali or Indonesia), I can assure you that in the old days the forum often included specific stories and details regarding corruption by immigration.  Moreover, as that forum has a great archive of past posts, one can go there and still find them if inclined to spend time doing that.  The same goes for a number of other forums which have been around for a while, including the old "Bali Expat Forum" now known as "Balipod."

I'm a glass half full, type of thinker.
Indonesia still has corruption issues, but Indonesia is fighting it and winning.

I see a great future for this beautiful country, and I'm going to do anything and everything I can to help in any way I can.
I don't for a moment thing I can do that much, but every little helps.
You just have to believe in the people of this great country, and I do.

As for the OP, check prices at immigration and shop around with the power of knowledge, not guess with no clue where you're starting from.

This thread has turned into an argument, something that isn't much use to anyone.
One insult has been removed, and several other posts are being looked at.

Perhaps we could calm down a little, please.

Fred wrote:

I'm a glass half full, type of thinker.
Indonesia still has corruption issues, but Indonesia is fighting it and winning.

I see a great future for this beautiful country, and I'm going to do anything and everything I can to help in any way I can.
I don't for a moment thing I can do that much, but every little helps.
You just have to believe in the people of this great country, and I do.

As for the OP, check prices at immigration and shop around with the power of knowledge, not guess with no clue where you're starting from.

Agree with that statement totally Fred. I'm also interested to see how this country develops further. It's nice being in a country that isn't fully developed and where you can see it progress.

As for the "high" cost of a retirement visa, if it is too expensive then perhaps think about staying where you are or consider retiring to another country. When you compare to places like Singapore or Malaysia then you'll find that the cost of a retirement visa in Indonesia is actually quite cheap.

I agree that the main offices which deal with bules are now good compared to a few years ago ,bali  ngurah rai since they moved away from the airport to the bypass , "before it was a right den of iniquity" , now I cant find fault .

But if you move to the smaller offices it still exists , in bali i have heard of peoples bad experiences in bulelang , I had a recent experience with misinformed imm officers in malang , if you read the larger forums ie living in indonesia you will still read current horror stories taking place in the class 2 offices , ya its a sad state of affairs , but all too common in developing countries.

tel522 wrote:

But if you move to the smaller offices it still exists , in bali i have heard of peoples bad experiences in bulelang , I had a recent experience with misinformed imm officers in malang ,.

Bad information might very well be unprofessional, but it doesn't make a corruption case, just a poorly trained officer.

Perhaps you could expand, quoting cases and/or news reports about this corruption.
Many people say and claim many things on forums but I find one thing absolute, and that's the absolute untruth in this.

"It's on the internet so it must be true."

Fred, I agree 100%.  Passing on rumors or hearsay is of no use or benefit to anyone…thinking specifically of the comment, “in bali i have heard of peoples bad experiences in bulelang.”

As it is, we have a long time member who lives in Singaraja on this board, his name is drbrucepk.  He visits us in Ubud quite regularly, and I know for a fact that he speaks very highly of the immigration folks in the Singaraja office.

I would agree poor training in some of the class 2 offices leads to problems, im not sure that the majority of people lie on the large forums here in indonesia , if you care to peruse living in indonesia forum there are some notable current threads about peoples problems with immigration , in particular regarding some unfortunate guys whom have recently lost their wives , these gentlemen are on kitap 10 years plus married, so therefore they must be allowed to stay indefinitely ,  but their respective offices are giving them a hard time on this , not very kind in my opinion

tel522 wrote:

.....im not sure that the majority of people lie on the large forums here in indonesia......

Yes I would agree with you on the above comment. Of the probable tens of thousands of expats that apply for Visas through Indonesia, just a tiny handful of regular contributors here, numbering maybe 2 or 3 or 4 are in no way a representation of expats in Indonesia. Even knowing a few more expats who have applied successfully also does not in any way give a true representation of corruption in immigration. They can only speak for themselves and their friends.

We all know it has existed before in a major way and some of us know it still does exist.

Therefore it is futile to keep going backwards and forwards on this. Each side will not budge. And here we are only a tiny percentage of expats who are relaying our experience or our friends experience.

So can we just stop arguing about whether corruption exists in the Immigration department?

Tel522, what do you mean by “a hard time?”  The KITAP visa is relatively new, so their circumstances may well be unique, or the first time those immigration officers have run into this particular issue. 

If, by saying “their respective offices are giving them a hard time on this” you meant that an officer said something like “give me 20 million and I’ll take care of it” then that would be corruption.

We are all aware of the many changes, and proposed changes to immigration and work permits that have transpired over the year plus since Jokowi was elected President, and that many of these implemented changes have resulted in confusion and uncertainty even within some immigration offices…but that is not the same as corruption. 

Hansson, while I agree with your comments that given the small number of us on this forum, by that nature ,is limited in personal experiences with immigration, the unarguable fact is that while forums on Indonesia used to be ripe with regular accounts of corruption by immigration...that is no longer the case.  In my view, that's pretty significant, and moreover it stands as valid documentation that corruption by immigration is today a mere shadow of what it used to be.

Nobody here is saying that it is 100% solved throughout Indonesia ...although I know for a fact, that here in Bali it is very close to 100% over. 

Stories I have been hearing...and these coming from expats I've known for many years, are in fact quite the opposite of what you would expect.  Those stories involve the expat trying to "persuade" the immigration officer to expedite or overlook an issue by way of money, only to find the officer refusing the incentive.

Corruption isn't like that anymore. It is not obvious nor direct. It may be done by intimidation, being told there is a problem and if you pay a fine or speak to "that officer" for a favour because you are missing a document then the process can be completed very quickly etc. Let's face it, immigration can find or create any number of reasons to reject a visa application if they so wish.

As I have said before, Jakarta and Bali may be pretty clean, but other places are not always. And I am sure corruption is negligible in Bali and Jakarta and reducing a lot in other places. But it does still exist Roy in some places.

I like Fred's comments that it is getting much much better and hopefully will be eradicated one day soon.

Right, enough about immigration. I'm off for a healthy brunch...!

tel522 wrote:

these gentlemen are on kitap 10 years plus married, so therefore they must be allowed to stay indefinitely ,

That is clear in law UU6/11.....2011?  10 years ago?
I'm going to sue my maths teacher.

“Let's face it, immigration can find or create any number of reasons to reject a visa application if they so wish.”

Since we are really into this issue…corruption within immigration, I want to make a few more points. 

My first point would be to ask, how many of you have seen and been able to read their immigration file?  I’ve seen and been able to read mine, and if the four folders were stacked one on the other, it would be close to 12 inches high.

Immigration files regularly contain notes and observations made by past immigration officers with whom an expat has dealt with.  These notes would include things like, demeanor of the expat, how they were dressed, how they acted during interviews, and also will include notes about any involvement/investigation by POLDA.  While one can argue that these notes are subjective in that they are not much more than observations/opinions of past immigration officers, the fact remains, we all have built our reputations here in one way or another.  And that reputation is best reflected in one’s immigration file.   

Indonesia, as a sovereign nation, has every right to keep close tabs on foreigners living within its boundaries.  It would be reckless to do otherwise.

So, with that said, the next time you hear of someone being given “a hard time” or facing difficulties with immigration, you might consider the possibility that there just might be some valid reasons for that.  But that is NOT corruption.

Fred wrote:

tel522 wrote:

these gentlemen are on kitap 10 years plus married, so therefore they must be allowed to stay indefinitely ,

That is clear in law UU6/11.....2011?  10 years ago?
I'm going to sue my maths teacher.

sorry my bad english , 10 years plus married

re my comment "hard time" , as a foreigner even on kitap we have to be super careful and respectful of its laws and citizens  of this country or any other we may stay in, other wise we can be kicked out , that of course is correct .

The 2 gentlemen I previously mentioned had cared for there sick spouses until the end , and 1 in particularly is not well off he spent most of his funds on care.

in the thread there was an inference  that this problem could be solved , but not by direct asking for cash , obviously both gentlemen have made their respective lives here and do not have the means to start again elsewhere .

yes the kitap law is new to many officers and further training is needed in some offices , but the law of 2011 is quite clear on this point , and unfortunately as time goes on more and more kitap holders may face this dilemma .

from a recent case where a guy overstayed 4 years, he was married to local and broke, immigration in jakarta allowed him to leave without fine or prison , as a humanitarian gesture , which I applaud ! and then you have the 2 cases I mentioned which I also believe should attract a little humanity.

We are really getting off topic here on this immigration thing. Back to the Retirement Visa costing so much, I personally find it not all that expensive, I mean Rp9,500,000 is only about US$680. Do you find that expensive?

If you want to retire in Malaysia you need to pay an Agent about US$2,000 - $2,500 to do your MM2H Visa for you and if you are over 50 years of age you need to deposit US$36,000 into a Fixed Deposit Account. If you are under 50 years of age it needs to be US$72,000. On top of that, you need to prove an income of at least US$2,400 per month. You also need to rent yourself a place and this is going to be several times more expensive than in Indonesia.

So paying Rp9,500,000 is really not much to be able to retire in this beautiful country. It's only US$680 !!!

It is pretty cheap. Doing the same in the UK would cost you a bomb, if you could manage it at all ... and consider the difference between Christmas on a beach in Bali against Christmas in the UK, watching brass monkeys shopping for welding gear.

I paid RP25,000,000 through the only licenced agent on Lombok for a 5 year retirement visa 3 years back.  It could be more expensive now. It should be the same anywhere in Indonesia.  Its really not expensive but I suggest you check whether the agent quoting the price is licensed or whether he has to go through the licensed agent meaning you pay double commission or triple commission.  On Lombok Immigration has set up a special office for expats which is really efficient but for a retirement visor you will need a sponsor and in my case the licensed agent is the sponsor.  He becomes responsible for your comduct in Indonesia.
Adrian

Hansson might know this.
Indonesian in many facets and walks of life know this. From the elites to the humble street person.
The Maxims are:

Kalau bisa dibikin susah, ngapain di gampangin. "What can be made complicated, why need to make it simple."
"UUD - Ujung Ujung nya Duit"

Hansson, perhaps you and I know more because we share similar business circles - with bandung and jakarta so close by. We might have been involved in KKN, knowingly and unknowingly every year. It is because it is accepted practise.

I can talk till the cow goes home, but the list of corruption matters in all facets of Indonesian system (including immigration - not just immigration visa offices) is simply far from over.
It might take a generational change to wipe/reduce KKN in all forms..

Lets leave those who thinks otherwise, to their own thoughts.