Cost of living in the Philippines - 2017

Really very simple.

If it is imported in cost more than USA

Taxes are cheaper

Labor and services including medical are cheaper.

So if you like massages this is the place for you.  I pay  about USD2.40 for good spa

in the USA USD 50

As an expat over all the cost of living here is much cheaper than western countries ,if you stick to local products ,but anything imported works out much more expensive. So its balance between how much more you want pay for quality imported product and a replacement cost of a local product cycle,this is true for most nonfood items.As far as food is concerned all local food is much cheaper if you can get used to it again if its imported food especially from the western countries its much more expensive cos most parrishables are airfreighted.There are cheap chinese products ,but they cannot be trusted and can often be harmful ,like plastic rice ,died veges and liquid inject prawns ect. We use mainly local produce some and  items imported from the west. When compare our grocers bill its almost a third of what we used to spend in UK or UAE.If you go to any fine dinning restaurant the costs is almost thhe same as the western countries,however fast food joints like Macdonald,KFC Pizza hut it is cheaper and consistent acceptable quality.Car fuel petrol is about 25 % cheaper and Disel even more ,cheaper than UK.Cost of public transport is is about a fraction of what it might cost you in the UK or UAE.On education I have no comments except that the standard is not up to mark .Cost of labour is cheap but productivity is also lacking one has to do do a measured comparsion  on the out put to gauge it right to see in actuality is it cheap or not,well thats about it folks.

rent 5000 peso
electricity 1800 peso
internet 1299 peso
kabel tv 500peso
groceries 15000,we buy few inport products ,am i coca cola slave kosts us about 1600 a month hehe,meat, fish ,fruit and veggys we all buy in the market great quality-nice price
we drive racal trike 500 peso gasoline
sigarets 3000peso
so for about 28000 we live quit nice in a small provincial city

greets Dirk

$2.40 USD for a spa? Where?

$2.40 for a spa? Where?

300-500 pesos for a doctors visit, but the doctor knows less than a US nurse.

> How much does it cost to rent an apartment/house in the Philippines? 
5000 to 7000 pesos any place other than Manila because Manila is a very large city and the prices are all over the place. I have a condo in a very nice community for 12k a month but I  hear others paying as much as 30k for the same thing. You just have to be firm and act like a local don't play bigshot and you won't get taken...there are guys here that pretend like they are getting a good deal when infact they were played... Be wise. Foreigner means money.



> How much do you pay for your public transport tickets (bus, subway, train, tram)?

I travel less than 20 pesos by Jeepney or tricycle. Bus is 25 to 80 pesos depends on how far. The simple way us that it's 50 pesos for each province. So if you  travel from far north Luzon to Manila 350 miles you will pay 750 pesos. From Manila to Batangus is 70 pesos.   

> Staple food: what do people eat and how much do they pay for basic food like bread, rice or pasta?

A meal at a food house is 35 to 50 pesos. It's called a budget meal.  One scoop of rice, veggies and meat and drink.

>What is your monthly grocery budget?

I am single so I eat out daily. I  mix it up. Sometimes food houses and sometimes fast food restaurant... Because everything is so cheap I'm never watchful about prices because even if I  ate at outback steakhouse everyday I could afford to do so because I literally save at everything else.

> How much does it cost to see a physician/doctor/specialist in the Philippines ?

I was hospitalized for 4 days stomach flu or food poisoning who knows... Anyways after four days and constantly giving me antibiotics and running tests I ended up paying 27,000 pesos. It was a private hospital owned by a family of doctors Dad Mom Two Sons and a Daughter. The are top notch in my book. Very professional and orderly.


> What is your children's schooling monthly budget?

N/A

> How much does it cost to fill up your car’s fuel tank?

Scooter 6 litre tank. Fuel 40 pesos per litre.

> How much do you pay for electricity/gas/water etc.?

Current /electric... 2k continuous air-con

Water  400 pesos.. Shower 2 times a day.


> How much do you pay for your Internet/phone subscription?

Internet and phone are bundled... 1500/month

> How much do you pay for your lunch pack on weekdays?

Already covered.

> How much do you pay for an espresso coffee?


I buy my coffee beans locally because the Philippines has beans that rank with the best. I  am paying 300 pesos per kilo. Roughly $2.50 per pound.


> How much do you pay for a cinema ticket?

150 to 200 pesos per movie

> How much does a gym membership cost in the Philippines? 

I pay 50 pesos for each day of work out. Not sure what monthly is because I'm not a regular at working out.

All in all if you  make $1200 per month in pension then you  are going to live well here. That equates to 60k a month and the average national income per family here is 20k per month with husband and wife working. So enjoy your retirement in the Philippines.

By the way I'm a smoker.  My cigarettes are Marlboro menthol and they run me 600 pesos per carton. That's 60 pesos a pack or $1.25 in my home in the USA they are $7.50 per pack.

wen i was sick i went to a dokter and i was wondering how he got his diploma (maibe he found it in the garbich can ),how ever,i went than to a small hospital in Toril and got all the care i needed ,the consultation there kost me 1500 peso and 1800 for the medication i needed .
so be aware of were ya seek medical help and ya be well.

Greets Dirk

Can anyone on this forum tell me the price of these drugs in Manila please?
Paroxetine (Seroxat) 20mg or 10mg Depression
Ropriniol 2.5 mg for Restless Leg Syndrome
Enalapril 5mg for High Blood Pressure HBP
Simvastatin 10mg HBP
Bendroflumethiazide 2.5mg HBP

i have no idea if these drugs or generik versions of them are availebol ,think hey will be availebol but for the price i think it wood be better to go to the pharmacist and ask them ,maibe your gf can do that .

greets Dirk

It depend on the city u live in .. At first ..

Guys let's not get into a pissing contest talking about doctors and medical care. I'm from America and it's much worse care there by physicians. Many are privileged kids from privilege families and they don't know Jack about what is going on... They simply give out prescription.

Now there are some of the best doctors in the world in the USA but generally the average Joe or Mary can't afford them. Just because they lack the financial resources here doesn't mean that you can't get Top knotch care. If you  seek out professionalism then you will find it. So please don't go bashing these people.  One thing to look for is a doctor owned hospital. They are usually private and small. Often times that doctor has done training in the USA, Israel, or Italy... The private hospitals have a link up to hospitals in the USA for major surgeries such as anurism, tumor, and bypass... Ask around.

Don't be so pessimistic.

Caloocan City North

Rent. 23,000 Piso a month. That is high end here.  3 large bedroom + maids quarters, 3 large full bathrooms, veranda upper & lower, 3 a/c units. View of river, mountains city & port, colonial stile home. Gated subdivision.  utilities 10,000 a month.  We have washer, dryer deepfreeze, refrigerator, 3 A/C units, LP gas, water, bottlewater on a cooler heater unit.  Food for most we buy at the market. Fish, pork, chicken, produce 1st quality pick it out yourself, for 3 adults 1 child. 3,000 piso a week. Then S&M another 3,000 a week for beer,soda, make up for wife & such. Gas for van. 250 to 1,000 piso a week if we go up in the mountains, beach, to the water falls or such. This is for  a 3 popper 5 passenger 4 wheel drive,  mini van, 5 speed manual, with A/C. & luggage rack on top. Rebuilt new title like new van. U.S. $5,000. They call them remanufactured vehicles here. Internet very slow. 500 piso a month, phone 300 piso a month for 2, No cable here. T/V on antina 3 stations. Your getting into high end living smaller town on U.S. $2,000 a month. Cloths & many other things I shop the discount bins. 5 polo shirts, button down collars tags removed inside. U.S. $10. cargo pants high quality $5 U.S. a pair. You must alway have a fer 1,000 piso notes hid in your billfold when out you never know what you will find. Cloths I might go 6 months & find nothing. Then be out & find pants or shirts I like very cheap in my size. I stock up then. Not mall shopping. Wife has her own money to buy her cloths. She is more main line shopping she spends more than me there.  Inflation. the piso was 40 to the dollar. Today it is 49 to the dollar. So in U.S. dollars there has been little. The dollar drops you have inflation. So $2,000 a month you can still live very well here. Over that like a king, $1,000 a month would be bottom end. Jeepney is 6 piso to the taxi stand from home. Pick up on corner. 100 to 120 piso to the centro or square down town from here. I pay 120 for some reason we always go the short way & I get very good service. Also if I can't find something I ask 3 taxi drivers that I know. They put out the word for me. Not in Philippines? In a week they will find one.

James Mitchell, where do you live?  Please tell us the city and province.

Perhaps the better responses to these questions should include the city/area/island of the Philippines the expat lives in.  Since I live in Southern Luzon, Cavite, Tagaytay City, my answers are as follows:

> House rent:  Small 2br/2bath house fully screened with water heaters in each bathroom & car port - P10,000.00/month. 

> Public transport tickets? - Don't use public trans, have car.

>Monthly grocery budget for 3 adults including shopping at S&R - P19,000.00/month (Don't smoke or drink alcohol = P00.00).

> How much does it cost to see a physician/doctor/specialist?  Have not been to a doctor/hosp yet. 

> What is your children's schooling monthly budget?  No kids

> How much does it cost to fill up your car’s fuel tank? Using Petron Blaze 100 @P49/ltr X 75 liters = P3675.00/month

> How much do you pay for electricity/gas/water etc.? Electricity = P3500 (includes 2 iMac computers, 4 cell phones, 99% LED lighting, occasional 2HP room A/C usage and a 22 cubic foot frost free refrigerator) + Water = P500, + Cooking gas P700.00 total: P4,700/month.

> How much do you pay for your Internet/phone subscription? PLDT = P2950.00/month for DSL 8 Mbps speed (includes 2 land lines).  Smart post-paid cell phone @ P600.00/month.

> How much does a gym membership cost in the Philippines?  About P700.00/month (cardio only), P1950.00/month full use with zumba).

> Cable TV = P600.00/month.

> Misc expenses = P4000.00/month

Total average in Tagaytay City = P36,225.00/month or about $725.00/month.

Hi im sonia ...i live in alabang
House , school, med bills , petrol, food , entertainment , utilities, car, maid , driver , etc about 120k per month .
We are four members ...from 2015 to now the prices have jumped quite a bit ...egs diesel from 19 to 33 p / liter....gas from 455 to 720 / tank ....grocery and meat products gone up too ....
Coming from malaysia...this place is a rip off ...zero service but huge prices to pay ....
Dont talk abt phone connective ...my bp will hit the roof ...
Its all a  mafia ...everything is run by private families that call the shots ...we pay the price.
Sorry ...but this is the true picture ...

Sonipudo wrote:

Hi im sonia ...i live in alabang
House , school, med bills , petrol, food , entertainment , utilities, car, maid , driver , etc about 120k per month .
We are four members ...from 2015 to now the prices have jumped quite a bit ...egs diesel from 19 to 33 p / liter....gas from 455 to 720 / tank ....grocery and meat products gone up too ....
Coming from malaysia...this place is a rip off ...zero service but huge prices to pay ....
Dont talk abt phone connective ...my bp will hit the roof ...
Its all a  mafia ...everything is run by private families that call the shots ...we pay the price.
Sorry ...but this is the true picture ...

you seems to have a very luxurious lifestyle as your costs are more than 3 times ours,and we have the idea we have a very good life here.but what i dont understand is ,if you find it so bad here, why stay?go live were you not have these complaints.
greets Dirk

Comparison of some cities PRA Facebook Post

Sir if you will inquire here they will give you costing and availability of yiur Precriptions

product.inquiry@mercurydrug.com

Mercury Drug  is well known through out Philippines

Kind regards

Larry

product.inquiry@mercurydrug.com

Sonia, you are very disgruntled. I'm not sure why so I'll be the devil's advocate for a while. First you are paying 3 to 4 times more than you should for what you are getting. Alabang is not like Makati. Makati is the Manhattan of Manila. Alabang is just a city mixed primarily of working class low income. The median income is 20k per month per family there. So how anyone can justify living above that is simply amazing. I'm in Paranaque just a 15 peso Jeepney ride from you. I'm paying 12k for a guarded condo community with all the amenities 2br, pool, gym, clubhouse, free Wi-Fi.... You need to scale it down a bit. Often foreigners play bigshot and get ripped off. Re-asses to see if that's what you did coming in. I  watched a guy get burned really bad from a deal with him renting a condo. The young kid who was playing agent asked him what his budget was... That guy told him that he had a budget of 40k for a nice 1br... Well he ended up paying 40k... The couple next door to him was in a two bedroom paying 8k. All of his neighbors were paying less than 10k for their units... Be smart and insist that you live like the locals... Pay what they pay... That's should be common sense but will too often I'm seeing people like yourself actually thinking you are going to live above them.. Not ever the case... Just scale it down and  try spending like say a local would.

Hi I live in the Davao Area my Latest Water Bill is 297.45 php for the month of February which is not bad it comes to around £4.79 compared to the UK its brilliant Electric is usually around 1315 php which is around £21 for the month, Sometimes it goes down sky tv and internet is around 999php £16 Food is the biggest expense but we try to use the public open market for Rice and fruit and veg and fish which keeps it down to around 16000php £256 a month its high this month because my partners eldest son was home from his ship but should go down next month

I use Davao Drs Hospital they are very good they cured my back pain for 500php

Also I dont smoke and only drink occasionally transport into the city from the Subdivision is around 30php, in a local eatery I usually spend 130php thats for kinilaw and rice and a coke again its a clean place where I go to the expat meetings

Having lived in the big city Cebu and now a province in Leyte I am finding the latter to cost significantly less. I think this is true all over the world.
Inflation has had its impact this last year, though the increase of the dollar
(my native currency) has offset its impact on my budget.
MONTHLY EXPENSES
RENT: 10000 pesos (3/1) stand alone house with maids quarters
ELEC: 900 pesos No AC "ACCLIMATE" it pays for the internet and phone
INTERNET: 1650 pesos
PHONE: 0 pesos, it is included with the internet I can take the phone anywhere in Leyte and all  PI calls are free.
Cable TV: 300 pesos
Propane: 175 pesos Used for cooking 3 meals a day
GROCERIES: 9000 for 3 people This can be done for less We eat well and usually have left overs to share
TRANSPORTATION: 50 pesos to Tacloban 150 pesos for Ormoc in a shared VAN 1000 pesos if Private 750 pesos by fairy to Cebu. around our local town 8 pesos for the pedicab. I have looked at cars (about the same as US) but I let the locals drive As a foreigner if there is an accident I will paying the bills. With so much public transportation available why take the risk
Movie: 150 pesos and another 150 for a soda and popcorn The best deal in the PI compared to the US.

Totaling the necessities that's roughly 21000 per month. In my 5 years here. I always have an expectation 40000 (800 US) As there are immigration fees, or medical expenses 1500 pesos a day for a private room in a private hospital 300 pesos to see a doctor.

In closing, to all my fellow expats, take you necessity budget and double it. I love the PI, but you don't want to be broke here!!!!!! LIVE POOR, ACT POOR, BE RICH.

Cdo missamis oriental.

FortuneFavorsTheBold wrote:

$2.40 USD for a spa? Where?

If you're near Davao, there's a place in Matina called Relax Spa, near Center Point mall. Massages are php 150, off peak hours. If you don't mind the noise (woman in cellphone next bay) or the massage lady talking to her colleagues and leaving you now and then - there you go.

Many places have off peak rates from between php150 and php250. A little higher than $2.40 and of varying quality.

Happy hunting!

Nathan juan wrote:

Guys let's not get into a pissing contest talking about doctors and medical care. I'm from America and it's much worse care there by physicians. Many are privileged kids from privilege families and they don't know Jack about what is going on... They simply give out prescription.

Now there are some of the best doctors in the world in the USA but generally the average Joe or Mary can't afford them. Just because they lack the financial resources here doesn't mean that you can't get Top knotch care. If you  seek out professionalism then you will find it. So please don't go bashing these people.  One thing to look for is a doctor owned hospital. They are usually private and small. Often times that doctor has done training in the USA, Israel, or Italy... The private hospitals have a link up to hospitals in the USA for major surgeries such as anurism, tumor, and bypass... Ask around.

Don't be so pessimistic.

Seems that you did to U.S. docs what you do not want done to docs here???

Either way, here's my take on health care. My reference is Cebu, Mati and Davao. I find the health care  here competent and parochial. It is triage oriented (focus on presenting problems as opposed to holistic or patient centered). It is paternalistic (doc knows best) even given the sometimes limited exposure to patient participation and wellness practices. Wait times for clinic hours (I have not found a doc here that does appts) can be from 1 to 5 hours, or more. A source of great frustration for me. Costs 400-500 per doc consult. Even for specialists, which I think is amazing, given the knowledge and experience I have found here.

Facilities can be dated (even for modern hospital. For public, I would not want to go to any, if I had a choice.) Most equipment is competent, some new but lots being second hand or refurbished from western countries, China and Japan. I have had colonoscopy and endoscopy done (last year) at Chun Hua. Cant remember cost, but thought it was very reasonable/cheap comparedvto U.S. Or even Costa Rica, where I lived last. A doc I saw in Cebu a few years back told me straight away, the standards are less here than in western and european  countries for most all things).

We are getting ready to have twins. The hospital, Davao Docs, has quoted 8400/night for very nice private room. The OB doc has quoted about 100k. Maybe the total would be about php250k to php300k for cs with no complications (our prayer, no matter the cost, of course). If it was only one and natural, we'd be at a birthing center. They are the best here, in my opinion. And the mid-wives I have met are outstanding. Cost, that I know of php 7.5k - 10k

Had a friend (US) sho got into an accident. Hospital and docs were more than reasonable. Three surgeries, anesthesiologists, hospital stay, all just over 100k. The problem was they could not leave the hospital without paying the bill.  Now dont't get me wrong, I am not complaining nor is this negative commentary. Just to say, if you have a health emergency and need a hospital stay be fluid enough to pay the bill or have a credit card they take, because the longer they keep you (even if it is to settle your account) the daily rate keeps adding up.

Meds, my Concor 5 mg runs about $30 a month. A great deal for me. The Cialis 5 mg is expensive (still not the States but more thsn Costa Rica) runs about $125. I think because the government regards it as just a sex enhancer, not acknowledging its benefit to the prostate and no more 2 a.m. bathroom trips.

That's my two cents.

about not letting you leave whit out setteling the bill,just explain that if they do not let you leave you will file a complaint for beeing held hostige ,you will be alowed to leave

greets Dirk

Perhaps a much better approach to the topic of not being allowed to leave a Philippine hospital or medical clinic if there is an outstanding bill is to understand the 2007 "Anti-Hospital Detention Act" RA 9439, to determine if you qualify under it and make sure you/your family has complied with the law (i.e., it does not cover those patients in private rooms, etc.). 

If held, send a written notice to the administrator with the following section highlighted:

"SEC. 3. Any officer or employee of the hospital or medical clinic responsible for releasing patients, who violates the provisions of this Act shall be punished by a fine of not less than Twenty thousand pesos (P20,000.00), but not more than Fifty thousand pesos (P50,000.00), or imprisonment of not less than one month, but not more than six months, or both such fine and imprisonment, at the discretion of the proper court."

This is based on Sec. 2 which reads, "Patients who have fully or partially recovered and who already wish to leave the hospital or medical clinic but are financially incapable to settle, in part or in full, their hospitalization expenses, including professional fees and medicines, shall be allowed to leave the hospital or medical clinic, with a right to demand the issuance of the corresponding medical certificate and other pertinent papers required for the release of the patient from the hospital or medical clinic upon the execution of a promissory note covering the unpaid obligation."

This may not affect expats much but it most likely will affect their spouse's family.

Calif-Native wrote:

Perhaps a much better approach to the topic of not being allowed to leave a Philippine hospital or medical clinic if there is an outstanding bill is to understand the 2007 "Anti-Hospital Detention Act" RA 9439, to determine if you qualify under it and make sure you/your family has complied with the law (i.e., it does not cover those patients in private rooms, etc.). 

If held, send a written notice to the administrator with the following section highlighted:

"SEC. 3. Any officer or employee of the hospital or medical clinic responsible for releasing patients, who violates the provisions of this Act shall be punished by a fine of not less than Twenty thousand pesos (P20,000.00), but not more than Fifty thousand pesos (P50,000.00), or imprisonment of not less than one month, but not more than six months, or both such fine and imprisonment, at the discretion of the proper court."

This is based on Sec. 2 which reads, "Patients who have fully or partially recovered and who already wish to leave the hospital or medical clinic but are financially incapable to settle, in part or in full, their hospitalization expenses, including professional fees and medicines, shall be allowed to leave the hospital or medical clinic, with a right to demand the issuance of the corresponding medical certificate and other pertinent papers required for the release of the patient from the hospital or medical clinic upon the execution of a promissory note covering the unpaid obligation."

This may not affect expats much but it most likely will affect their spouse's family.

A legal opinion would be great. This guy is an expat. And had a private room. Good info......

Now many should understand the reason why most expats and their spouses are always directed to the private rooms…..  Even a semi-private room is often made "not available" as they rush you to the private room so the payment can be demanded or person held if they are not under RA9439. 

No matter what the facility staff may say the room type is, the expat must see it in writing, review the implementing rules and pay attention to definition "K" prior to agreement of the room type.  Definition "K" reads:

"K. Private Room - a single occupancy room or a ward type room divided by either a permanent or semi-permanent partition (except curtains) not to exceed 4 patients per room who are admitted for diagnosis, treatment and other forms of health care maintenance."

Not sure what "legal opinion" would help but a review of the above mentioned  "Implementing Rules" that are contained in Administrative Order No. 2008-0001 should be enough to provide the legal basis of the law. 

Remember the following:

Republic Act No. 8344
The Anti-Hospital Deposit Law
It states that it is unlawful for any hospital or medical clinic to refuse administering to patients treatment and support that could prevent their death or permanent disability.

and

Republic Act No. 9439
"An Act Prohibiting the Detention of Patients in Hospitals and Medical Clinics on Grounds of Non-payment of Hospital Bills or Medical Expenses.”

For more of a complete set of review documents, RA6615 & RA8344 will arm the expat with all the details needed.  Here is a example of a Promissory Note buried in RA6615.

Here is a related story from another expat on another blog.

How much does it cost to rent an apartment/house in the Philippines? 
Mindanao costs me 3500peso monthly for basic 2 bed house

> How much do you pay for your public transport tickets (bus, subway, train, tram)?
Jeepney 7 peso, taxi city limit approx 100 peso, motorbike 50 peso, trike 20 peso. All depend on distance

> Staple food: what do people eat and how much do they pay for basic food like bread, rice or pasta?
Chicken 135 peso per kilo whole chicken, pork 140/150 per kilo but depends on cut, fish, bangus, 140 peso kilo. Rice, whatever you wish to pay, I buy nfa grade 3, 27 peso a kilo but you can pay double that depending on grade

>What is your monthly grocery budget?
I don’t budget, I buy what I need but it would be probably be in the region of 700 per week as I buy mainly in the market and haggle.
How much does it cost to see a physician/doctor/specialist in the Philippines ? 
I use city hospital free consultation

> What is your children's schooling monthly budget?
Was 3000 peso a month High school now 1500 peso a month college

> How much does it cost to fill up your car’s fuel tank?
38 peso per litre

> How much do you pay for electricity/gas/water etc.?
Elect 700 peso ( don’t have aircon) water free

> How much do you pay for your Internet/phone subscription?
Internet 1000 peso month, phone prepaid unlimited 20 peso every 3 days

> How much do you pay for your lunch pack on weekdays?
I f I eat out depends, local carandaria can be as little as 30 peso 1 piece chicken 1 cup rice  inasal about 99 peso similar to all national outlets

> How much do you pay for an espresso coffee?
Don’t drink coffee now only salabat

> How much do you pay for a cinema ticket?
Don’t go to cinema

> How much does a gym membership cost
Don't use.

Basically you can pay as much or as little as you want.

min 1000 us a month wow wish I had that to spend. I have 600 gbp about 40k peso now. I throw money around like confetti on my close people. I live comfortable in a 2 bed basic house, no aircon (don't like) I run a 900rr motorbike which is quite economical if you want lol. I buy fresh local meats chicken fish and veg no processed at all. My quality of life depends on my g/f and friends not on the quality of the goods I own. Not that I am decrying you at all, it's horses for courses. Even I had US 1000 i would probably give more away lol. I enjoy my style of life I will grow up the day I die, 70 this year

davtjo wrote:

How much does it cost to rent an apartment/house in the Philippines? 
Mindanao costs me 3500peso monthly for basic 2 bed house
.

I live in Davao City. My small condo (about 400 sq. ft.) rent is like 25k. I was paying 30k for a three br house (1800 sq. ft.) in an upscale gated neighborhood. You are paying like US $70 a month. Do you mind sharing in what place you live.

Wayne

Seroxat about 1,900php for 30 tabs.

Don' know about your specific med for HBP, but Lisinopril runs about a 1000/mth.

Luckily, I have drug coverage through my pension in Canada so submit my claims from here and get reimbursed so avoid (maybe fake) generics.