Troubled and Confused

It a still amazes me the mind games these gals can play. Loved the advice about putting the foot on her neck. A friend told me her, give them a finger nail and they will eat the finger, give them a hand and they will eat the arm, and so on. My wife plays the same game. We are separated and she became very demanding. I simply ignored her completely for perhaps 9 months. No she is singing a different tune. I told her I have raised many children and I know what to do when someone is throwing a fit. So don't even try it because you will starve to death.

Ciambella wrote:

why didn't you help her ...

you took too long  ...

you could have used your brain ...

rather immature ...

you forced her to the wall

you should have worked together

do you care?

That ... should have been done ...

Ow! Punch an OP!
So now it is all the man's fault.
Wife gets a pass, husband gets a lecture? 

I think OP has been pretty brave and vulnerable to ask for help.
He is in a tough spot, looking for advice for future decisions.
The past is done, now what should he do? Suggestion?

gobot wrote:

Ow! Punch an OP!
So now it is all the man's fault.
Wife gets a pass, husband gets a lecture? 

I think OP has been pretty brave and vulnerable to ask for help.
He is in a tough spot, looking for advice for future decisions.
The past is done, now what should he do? Suggestion?

Nope, there's no blaming or bias treatment here, just posing the questions as they surfaced in my mind while reading the story.  I'm also presenting the side that has not been seen before on these forums: a woman's POV.  There were enough bashing the woman in this story while we have only heard the man's side, and to be frank, his side left a lot to be desired.

What I read was the story of a man who did nothing to help when his wife talked to him about her financial problem and the path she planned to take to ease her concern.  He didn't care for the plan but said nothing and did nothing, so she went ahead with her colossally stupid choice. 

Fast forward a few months later, he became upset when she stopped contacting him.  He complained when she refused to discuss her new profession and her less than enthusiastic attitude towards him.  He complained when her behaviours changed for the worse.  He blamed it on the new company that she kept at her new profession, the company of which she would have not become a member had he done something about it right off the bat.

Then, being a brave but vulnerable man that he was, he came to the forum, asked a bunch of strangers for their opinions.  The strangers, all of them men, most of them have had very bad experience with women in this country, understandably told him that he needed to put his foot down, to either teach the half-wit gold digger (even though he told us she's definitely not one of those) a lesson or pull the rug from under her, whichever faster and easier.  So he put his foot down in a big way. 

Before, when he pushed, she pulled back.  Now, the role was reversed, he pulled back so she had to push.  Except that while pulling back, he also told her that he was going to take away the future that they planned together when they got married.   It's the age-old silly game of taking all the toys when leaving the sandbox, except these toys were so important that, without them, the sandbox would have the same value as a kitty litter.  Seeing her future about to go kaput, she got panic and relented quickly, and again became the "amazing" woman he believed that she has always been.

You implied that I gave the wife a pass. I did not.  I didn't give her anything but an attempt at explaining why she acted the way she did.  What she got from her husband's very belated reaction, however, was the important lesson on looking before leaping, on knowing that every action has consequences.  She definitely has learned her lesson, but instead of one that was taught to her in a cohesive manner, it was rammed down her throat like a horse pill taken without water.  Not an effective method in my book.

You also didn't like that I gave the husband a lecture.  Well, he does need a lecture on the importance of being decisive, of being the decision maker in a traditional relationship, of being the person his wife can lean on and can come to when she needs help, either emotionally or financially.  He also needs to know that while her *action* had bad consequences, his *inaction* created the trouble, confusion, and hurt feeling that they've both suffered.  A lesson lived is a lesson learned, thus lecture is sometimes the necessary evil.

You asked what he should do now and what my suggestions are.  The way I see it, if (and it's a big IF) I were a woman whose future lies on the palms of my husband's hands, a woman who would soon to leave my family and my home to be in a strange land with my husband as the only person I know, I would fervently wish that he would take care of *us* both, not just financially, but also emotionally.  I would wish that he would do it consistently, that he would listen and understand what I try to tell him without the need for me to spell out every letter (yes, it's the cultural difference, which we'll talk about in Diazo's new topic), that he would never again leave me feeling like a flounder out of water,  and that he would steer me from making the kind of mistakes that I have done in the past. 

That's what I (Ciambella, not the OP's wife) would suggest him to do.  Try to mend the tear in the marriage which her pecadillo and his own inattentiveness have created.  Leave the hammer out of the relationship and try understanding and empathy instead.  If he believes she is an amazing woman, then he should treat her like one.  If he doesn't like what she does, then he should make his feeling clear to her, but do it without a negative connotation.  I don't sense that she's stringing him along at all.  Instead, I think she needs guidance and assurance, and he should be readied to give her what she needs at a moment's notice. 

In short, he needs to step up for the role of head honcho *at all time*, or the same problem would happen again and again.

it's pretty obvious the wife is quite young...I'm guessing under 24 which would account for a lot of her behaviour.

I think it would make things interesting if people discussing their relationship issues could honestly state their AGE and if possible PHOTOS of the newlyweds.

That ain't gunna happen is it.   

I know blokes around here in "marriages" with up to 50 year age differences.   There's a bloke here 75 married to a 24 year old😳, he's telling me he's having issues.    She's probably sick of washing his incontenance nappies.  😆

You'd think even the dumbest of dumb would know by now that coming to these cheap Asian places looking for wives on dial-a-bride.com would know the problems they're highly likely to have.

It's all part of life's journey.   If these guys are clearly punching above their weight, they better get used to copping a few on the chin.

@ Ciambella
Probably the most well thought out and articulated piece I have seen on here in ages. I wish we could get more of the female input.
Not that you are wrong at all. But it sounds like you are coming from the female thinking....  or just the human thinking of the West. It has been my experience here anyway, that the female here does not fit into the convient stereotype of a Western women. I have found that they are the leaders of the home, very dominate, with men that are worthless for the most  part. Indeed, the only Western men I have found here that do not find it a difficult relationship is the passive male. And passive males are rarity in the jedeo-Christian dominate West. For it is from the Bible that we are taught the man is the leader and has the ultimate responsibility for the family and the family name.
  I can not really speak to this mans issues. I do enjoy hearing it. And like I said you speak wisely. Just not sure how easily it translates here. A Western women shows emotions. She can open up and cry and it is easy to see what she needs. Here they are hard as stone. In my experience and I am not sure you could make them cry if you did open heart surgery on them. They can never do wrong if even caught doing it. In the West we can apologize and admit our mistakes and move on. Here it seems saving face is the most important thing. I have found that you have to let them feed you a lie and you except it so they can save face. To date I have never found one that could apologize. Wish we could combine all this on the other thread I started. Again thanks for a great female input.

Yep!

@yogi
Very very true. Believe me I was told and inside K knew that with 30 years age difference she surely was not marrying me because she lived deep wrinkles, or the bulge in my pants. Yet we press forward and eventually realize it was truly for the buldge in our pants...  the one in the back pocket where the ATM card is stored.
I wis I could count the number of 20 something's that were just attracted to older mature 60-70 year old men due to the attributes of their maturity. Some hot mamas I must say. And the op I got anti for this admiration was $1,000 a month. And I know many well healed VNese men who have mistresses they build million dollar home for and they want for nothing. That was not in my plan at all.
  I am a more frugal lover. Let's see, a live in maid $200 a month, a live in chef $200 a month.... a little love along the way quite cheap for a 68 year old. Gosh that is a lot cheaper than the opening anti!!!!

@yogi. Yep. I'm 68, met my wife when I was 58 and she was 30. We had a platonic relationship for a couple of years - she was an executive with an MBA, I was working for an oil company.  Then I got really ill and she looked after me like no one else ever had. She found me an apartment and nursed me for over a year. I gradually got better and got a new job. We bought an apartment, then she bought a house. We got married in 2014. For a couple of years we were very poor, but her loyalty was unswerving. Even if she buggered off and left me tomorrow I could never repay her for what she did for me.

Yogi at #45. My VN wife and I married when I was 56 and she was 39.   We met in 1998 and married four years later. That's a pic of us next to this post.

Well I read a female's POV, but I didn't read the wife's POV. There is a lot in the female's POV that appears to be assumption.
OP didn't say he ignored his wife's financial worry, didn't say they discussed the bar job before she took it, didn't say he 'pushed' her (how?) until she pulled back, and what inaction is he responsible for? He is bad for not controlling his wife? Really? She was the one who changed, he took action to get her attention.

In the US, since 2nd wave feminism in the 1970s, male/female relationships have changed to be more of a partnership. The idea is each partner contributes their strengths, and every decision is made mutually, with emphasis on equality. Doesn't always work, you get power and ideology struggles. The old dominant husband/submissive wife pattern is especially taboo.

What I have seen in Vietnam is a pattern of marriage roles instead. Not equality, not dominant/submissive, but the man is expected to take a leadership role, and the woman has a caretaker role. Regardless of personalities or strengths. It is based on an acceptance of difference in the sexes (now called genders). Well, this  pattern, similar to my parent's generation marriage, would not play well in the US with 2nd and especially 3rd generation feminists.

I think the main problem the OP couple has is this kind of cultural difference, and it sounds like he and his wife are communicating better now (#26) . Long distance relationships are always difficult.

What do you say, @laststanding? Still here?

gobot wrote:

Well I read a female's POV, but I didn't read the wife's POV. There is a lot in the female's POV that appears to be assumption.

We would never see the wife's POV or the other side of the story.  It would have been ideal but it would never happen. 

The OP didn't say he ignored his wife's financial worry, didn't say they discussed the bar job before she took it, didn't say he 'pushed' her (how?) until she pulled back, and what inaction is he responsible for? He is bad for not controlling his wife? Really? She was the one who changed, he took action to get her attention.

Yep, there were a lot of assumptions on my part, but they're based on what the OP said and *not* said.  That's what we're all doing most of the time on these forums, weren't we, to make assumptions based on what people told us?  Those assumptions became facts when people told us the whole story and the true story, and they became so far off field when we found out later that the story was so abridged it lost all of the important parts.   

The OP told us his wife had concern about money and wanted to take up a bar job to find the fund.  He didn't tell us of his reply, so I assumed he didn't offer his help so she wouldn't have to have the job, and he also silenced his distate for her new job.

The inaction is the action he should have taken but did not.

When I used the word "pushed/pulled", I meant he called her repeatedly and insisted that they talked about her job (pushing), and she withdrew by refusing to cooperate (pulling).  It's not a bad thing that he insisted, but the timing was so way off.  He should have had the discussion before she took the job, not 6 months later.

He finally took action to get her attention, at a time when she no longer wanted to give it.  I never said I condone her reaction, but I can understand why she did it.  Understanding is fare from agreeing and accepting.

Since I strongly believe in communication, I think they seriously need to change the way they handled their conflict.

ralphnhatrang wrote:

Yogi at #45. My VN wife and I married when I was 56 and she was 39.   We met in 1998 and married four years later. That's a pic of us next to this post.

Nah.....not you Ralph . 
That's a good news story. 

Gotta get some pictures of the Train Wrecks  here.  😬   You might recall seeing a yank around here, he's 70ish, got a pony tail & looks like Willie Nelson  meets Colonel Sanders of KFC fame.  He's hit the wall with a 21 year old. 😆 He's still got his sense of humour though.  His cash took a hit , but that's how it goes.


Amazing coincidence here.....those ages you gave above are what my lady friend and I are at.     17 yr difference.    It's working well with a friends with benefits approach.

@Ciambella,
  Have you ever tried to communicate with these people in a meaningful educated way? If you could ever find anything they did not already know more than everyone in the world you might be able to start a conversation. Then you must deal with the fact they will defend their position until death, even if they know it is wrong. Then once past that they must save face. I too love to communicate and share. But here it is so so difficult. I guess that is among some of the cultural things.. In the West we can and do apologize. Here the entire earth will be dead before they will apologize. And they are the smartest uneducated people I have ever met. And when you present the facts to them to prove they are wrong they insist you must show them in Vietnamese.
I too thought the women's point of view read into the conversation lot I did not read. I guess I should go back and read it again. I know these gals like to play mind games. And that is what I read between the lines. He seems to have called her hand and she to capitulate. Which seems in keeping with the M.O. here. But we are only getting one side of the story so it makes it all enjoyable shit chat.

I don't have a relationship with anyone in this country aside from my blood relatives, so I don't have the kind of experience that you and many people on these forums have.  Still, I recognise that sincerity and a thirst for knowledge are difficult to find in most Vietnamese I've met since I moved here.

I don't remember the people around me were that way when I grew up.  We all had friends whom we trusted unreservedly.  We all thought and talked about our future.  Every high school graduate could speak, write, and read in another foreign language, and, with the right major (we had majors in high school), many of us did all of that in two foreign tongues.  People might have had to live hand to mouth but they were not ignorant of world events, and they understood how those events would have affected them.  The old men playing chess at the cafes and the local barbers discussed world politic on daily basis.  There was no local government officials breathing down their necks every time they turned around or checking on the identity of their overnight guests.  The newest release of foreign films were shown at the cinemas, the latest pop tunes in foreign music were played at the balls at weekends, and lending libraries were located in every district.

So, whatever happened in the last 4 decades must be the cause of this widespread mistrust.  Could that be the only way they can protect themselves in the new oppressive regime?  The younger generation (anyone under 45) was born into it so those characteristics are natural to them and they wouldn't know how to act differently. 

There's an American movie made in the late '90s called Pleasantville.  It's about an idyllic town where the only colours to be seen were black and white, temperature was the same every day, and no one questioned what beyond Main Street.  The residents were perfectly content in their world until two young people from the "real" world arrived and stirred up everything.  Rain came down, flowers bloomed, colours appeared, and people experienced different emotions.  The town fathers got panic.   Real emotions were dangerous because they could not be controlled, and the only reason Pleasantville was pleasant because everyone was taught to live and act the same way.

That's how I'm seeing Vietnam presently.  Not that it's idyllic, but the residents all share the same characteristics, all act the same way, and no one questioned what beyond Main Street.  Life goals?  Why bother, isn't living day to day is good enough?  Building a long term relationship?  See answer above.  It's very discouraging.

Dear Troubled and Confused,

I have lived in Vietnam for 20 years and have heard this story many times before. Cut you losses and get out as soon as possible. It might be hard but well worth it in the long run.

She will do all she can to stop you leaving but don't fall for it, she sounds no good.

Good luck and move on.

Nick.

Again very interesting comments Ciambella. I ponder what the heck happened and when. Was it the change in gov't, the switch to capitalization. But you hear young people on after another say they only want to escape from the prison they call Vietnam. No one seems to want to plan or work for a good future. If they can cheat someone today and get another dong they would rather do that then have a customer for life. And yes, I have some good storekeepers that work hard and are fair an honest. For me it gets very disappointing. Honestly I believe the ( I better be careful how I put this) people making the decision are perpetrating a fraud on the young university bound students here. They
are all encouraged to go to university and be taught from books that are so outdated, no one actually has the text, they go to the copy shop and copy the subject matter of the day. They pay $4,000 for a degree that is worth nothing and once they cross the borders of Vietnam they learn it is worthless and they must learn to become a manicurist in their new country.
  My Neighbor is a Vietnam trained architect that moved to Arizona and was so excited he was soon going to become and architect in America. I was honest with him and told him it just is not going to happen. He soon learned and he too enrolled in a manicurist school. Said he cried every night until he finally returned home. I have seldom seen a person so depressed.
  But you try to teach them, you try to tell them and they think they know everything. I suppose that is country pride. If you have nothing to compare it to I guess that should be expected. Sad.

Sorry I thought we were on the cultural thread. I need to unsubscribe to this thread.

Diazo wrote:

But you try to teach them, you try to tell them and they think they know everything. I suppose that is country pride. If you have nothing to compare it to I guess that should be expected. Sad.

Mx exgirlfriend was exactly like this. She thought she knows everything. Even about topics where she didnt have any idea about whats going on. And if you have a discussion and prove her she is wrong, she might admit it. After 2 weeks we had the same topic again, and she was like that other discussion never had happened.

Well, from a westerner point of view, you are not over-reacting but from a Vietnamese perspective, you are. The behavior of your "wife" is quite common for Vietnamese women. I have lived in VN for 7 years and know this to be true. If you need or want to discuss this further with me, then feel free to reply. Dr Mike

Long distance relationships are a problem if there  isn't a hundred percent trust on both sides . I had an eight year long distance relationship before I was able to come to Vietnam and marry.  I would not allow my then  fiancé to work in a bar even if she wanted to. That just  wouldn't work out for me . I trust her 100% when she was living with her family , but if she told me she was working in a bar at nights that would have been the end of our relationship . That would be like  putting a kid in a candy store and telling them not to eat the sweets . Plus my  paranoia would've got the better of me . A lot of people on this foram do not give the Vietnamese girls the credit they deserve. Yes we have all heard the horror stories, but I put that mostly down to stupidity . I would  say the Vietnamese girls are more  loyal than the European girls. Anyway good luck to this guy , I hope he has sorted out his problems .

I think this guy still has a chance, I suspect the girl is quite young and has realised her mistake

Just the fact that you're writing your question here should be enough to tell you.  You don't need our opinions.  You already know.

Any chance of a picture of her? 

Reading through this thread, I just wish to comment as below. I have been living here for 5 years.
Someone said "Vietnamese women will defend their position even if wrong".
Isn't this what the Communist ideology is all about - My view is the only viewpoint and all others are wrong. Isn't that the strong influence that permeated this nation prior to their 'opening up'?
"They will never apologize'
Again, this holds well with the concept of 'face saving'. This in part is what Chinese culture is all about. And these people were also strongly influenced by that race.
The OP told his side of the story but the wife's POV was not given any airing. Presumably, part of the purpose is to invoke sympathy from the males on this forum and to complain about his 'raw deal'. Ciambella had analyzed the whole episode very well, and I , even being male, could understand her completely and agree fully. These days, VN girls in the city are quite well educated and look at marriage as a partnership, although deep down, the family is always the core point of their focus.
A very very difficult decision is whether to leave the family behind to travel to a strange land both culturally and physically.
Once they are convinced you are their true love, the loyalty is beyond reproach and you can count on 'growing old with white hair together' as the saying goes.
It's the VN male who will play the field.
Strange story about Pleasantville it just reminds me how NK controls its population, strangely familiar!

Like everyone else I would cut it off now no more contact no more money and find someone else that you can be happy with because you will never be happy with her

Like everyone else I would cut it off now no more contact no more money and find someone else that you can be happy with because you will never be happy with her

this also seems like the right to start doin a little shopping on your own for a new relationship... we all know the best way to get over the last failed relationship is to get another one going...
and I think we all know not to judge all VN women by the bad ones we hear about... there are many fine ones out there I'm sure... just don't start to rationalize in your mind that a hot bar girl or hooker is any more than just what you saw... get you a good unspoiled one from the countryside... there are still plenty of fine ones left that would be glad for what you can do for her and her family...

To all of you who advised the OP to terminate the relationship and find himself either another partner:  Do you realise that he's married to her?  Without her consent, it would be divorce by single request -- a complicated matter in which irreconcilable differences is not recognised as a good enough reason.

I forgot about that.. most marry after coming to US but he said they already married her there.. 😍... what a mess now

I agree 100%. This is bad to say but it is very differcult to change a girl that has worked in a bar. The bar is a crutch for their needs either financial or companionship. You can take a girl out of the bar but you cannot take the bar out of the girl.

Thank God for that.  If you took the "bar" out of the girl, there'd be nothing but schoolmarms riding around on their motorbikes.

TYPO

jkelly5762 wrote:

Thank God for that.  If you took the "bar" out of the girl, there'd be nothing but schoolmarms riding around on their motorbikes.

Some of us want more than just a sex partner or a "business" companion (cook, housekeeper, laundress, shopper, translator, masseuse.)  Don't get me wrong. All those skills are great -- and so is sex --- but late at night ... in bed or out, I want someone that I can have an intelligent conversation, esp. as one gets older.

In the Army, recruiters call really dumb candidates ... "Rocks with lips." Nah, not that kind of person for me.

   It'd be cool to meet someone of --any ethnicity -- that's bright, attractive-enough, preferably educated and, ideally, partying, shopping & fashion are not their prime drives.
   
   Fantasizing can be healthy.

Right on. Divorce should be the last resort. Differences can always be sorted out, if both try hard enough. If you stick by the vow, love and forgiveness will find a way.  The past will fade away and it's time to move on. All the very best for pure happiness. 

I think you need to find a way of spending more time in Vietnam and find out what is really going on. Then you can draw your own conclusions. In the meantime keep a close control of money. Do not stop the money but keep it to the essentials. The key is spend time together. My experience is you neverr really find out what Asian girls think..their attitude and mindset is different and we will never understand......

Diazo wrote:

. They can never do wrong if even caught doing it. In the West we can apologize and admit our mistakes and move on. Here it seems saving face is the most important thing. I have found that you have to let them feed you a lie and you except it so they can save face. To date I have never found one that could apologize.

Wow, sounds like my ex, who was Chinese. In the year or so I was with her I think the most honest thing she said to me was (in an angry rage after telling a blatant lie) “I DONT SAY SORRY”!!! And she didn’t mean in that instance, she meant it was a hard rule of hers. I think I moved out a week later. Crazy how admitting mistakes and apologizing is looked at in completely opposite ways in East and West.

👍👏👏

The problem for a foreigner is when they look at a Vietnamese person it is hard if not impossible to understand that persons place in society. Whereas at home in your own country you can look at someone and immediately know many things about a person.  This in my opinion significantly increases the relationship risk for foreigners. Adding to the problem is that most Vietnamese women are beautiful which further clouds a mans judgment. Add to this the language and cultural differences and its not an easy path imo.

I mean, it might not be a traditional kinda answer, but I'd recommend dating at least a few women in let's say SE Asia and understanding how it goes or can go before seriously committing to a relationship (around here), espesh if this ends up in a marriage