Libya wants freedom

ode2libya wrote:

Since there aren't any expats left in Libya i assume it would not be too taxing to say something total irrelevant to expat life in Libya...all you guys that have been living in Libya and got to know the country and its people and I'm not talking about the corrupt policemen or the opportunists preying off foreigners but the real people. I ask that you please get involved with our cause, we need support in which ever form we can get we need voices to let the people know that it is only a minority of people that want Gaddafi to stay meanly the people that are knee deep in innocent blood, the people who would greatly lose out $$$ and his payed thugs which would make up less the 5% of the population if that.
The rest of the Libyans want Gadaffi and his crew out we don't want part of any process by which sayf is an interim figure. there can be no negotiations with this mad man as he will say one thing and do the opposite so how can we trust anything he says..42 years of corruption, tyranny, fear, exploitation, embezzlement is enough.

Hi there!
I was one of those who got to discover the real Libya and made many Libyan friends during my stay in your wonderful country - even though it was relatively short - only 16 months.  It pained me so much to have to leave - and I long to go back one day, to see my friends again, and to live and work there again.
Dont worry, seddeqi - I have made it my business since getting back to my country, to tell the truth about Libya and her people, and how very much you long for freedom.  Please know that there are MANY people out here who love and support you - you are not alone.  There are also MANY people praying for all of you every day.
God Bless you and protect you.
Jenni

I love and miss 'my people'in Libya as well and can't wait to get back and help in the rebuilding of the beautiful country for it's wonderful people. News update the British and French are sending in the Apache AH64D attack helicopter, they WILL make a huge difference, nowhere to run, and nowhere to hide now for the corrupt and murderous regime. Stay safe my Libyan friends and I will pray for you all and your country.

Clansman wrote:

the British and French are sending in the Apache AH64D attack helicopter, they WILL make a huge difference, nowhere to run,.

are you saying these helicopters will end up creating "the myth of a national hero" that will last even longer? Why is it the "WHite Man's Burden" [please read the poem by Rudyard Kipling] to make a huge difference? Haven't we learn enough from history?
Libyans want freedom, they deserve freedom, however (libyans, non-libyans) are all in the same predicament Clansman; sending the Apaches does not seem like the solution towards freedom to me (and by the way it is also illegal for foreign powers, according to international law, to pursue heads of states)
What is happening in Libya is not a video game of "cowboys and apaches",it is a terrifying human tragedy that will have lasting effects.
fk

To Clansman and other "idealists": Seems to me we all understood Moel's article VERY differenly.
to FK: +500

I would even specify "naive idealists"

fatmakumru wrote:

Clansman wrote:

the British and French are sending in the Apache AH64D attack helicopter, they WILL make a huge difference, nowhere to run,.

are you saying these helicopters will end up creating "the myth of a national hero" that will last even longer? Why is it the "WHite Man's Burden" [please read the poem by Rudyard Kipling] to make a huge difference? Haven't we learn enough from history?
Libyans want freedom, they deserve freedom, however (libyans, non-libyans) are all in the same predicament Clansman; sending the Apaches does not seem like the solution towards freedom to me (and by the way it is also illegal for foreign powers, according to international law, to pursue heads of states)
What is happening in Libya is not a video game of "cowboys and apaches",it is a terrifying human tragedy that will have lasting effects.
fk

FK don't quite know what you are driving at with this, UN mandate 1972 is VERY clear that all UN forces are acting to help protect the Libyan people from what has been deemed a muderous regime. If you are not familiar with military tactics, let me explain. It is all well and good dropping precision guided weapons on military storage areas and tank formations from 20,000 feet, but the 'regime' has changed tactics and are using more and more civilian 4x4 vehicles to transport troops and militia to do their dirty work. The Apache is a far more suitable platform to launch strikes against such targets than fast jets. No one is saying 'the white man' has 'saved the Libyan people'. I witnessed both first hand and through Libyan friends some of the 'human tragedy' you refer to, and I pray that a solution can be found soon, hopefully one that doesn't cost any more Libyan lives (on either side). The Libyan people have to decide what THEY want, not the UN or the west, but at this moment in time they have NO choice until the fighting stops and they can be consulted en mass.

Clansman wrote:

the Apache AH64D attack helicopter, they WILL make a huge difference, nowhere to run, and nowhere to hide now for the corrupt and murderous regime. Stay safe my Libyan friends and I will pray for you all and your country.

I saw no difference the west has made, there must be a better solution. how long does it takes to build and how long does it take to destroy, yet the biggest question is who is suffering all the aftermath from both sides even the middle? it is the innocent and not the culprit. hoping that this is not already Iraq in the making!

mind you what ever happens to libya is affecting the whole world in general weather we like it or not, yet will continue to pray for the libyan and my libyan friends, stay bless all

sorry clansman UN 1972 is NOT very clear; if it was, a little boy who happens to be somebody's grandson would not have to die, and if it was really clear, there would be a UN 1973 for Syria... ooops sorry Syria doesn't have much of an oil to fight for, so allow me not to buy into any such mandates.
Look man, I don't want to engage in any political/military debate here because I sense that you must be missing and hurting for the streets of Libya as much as I do, since you too keep coming back to this blog (and boy am I happy to read posts of some of those people I used to read back when I was frolicking in my house in Tripoli, reminds me of a lost world)
So never mind, I'll wholeheartedly disagree with your position that celebrates or expects a positive outcome from this war. I am sure we agree that Libyans deserved better a year ago this time, they still do deserve better now. Let's pick up this discussion next year this time, if you are right, let's say I'll take you and your wife out for a drink in Tripoli, if I am right... well we'll still be sad, very very sad... and moving on in our relatively comfortable lives while Libyans will still be longing for freedom.
fk

ogochinago wrote:

Clansman wrote:

the Apache AH64D attack helicopter, they WILL make a huge difference, nowhere to run, and nowhere to hide now for the corrupt and murderous regime. Stay safe my Libyan friends and I will pray for you all and your country.

I saw no difference the west has made, there must be a better solution. how long does it takes to build and how long does it take to destroy, yet the biggest question is who is suffering all the aftermath from both sides even the middle? it is the innocent and not the culprit. hoping that this is not already Iraq in the making!

mind you what ever happens to libya is affecting the whole world in general weather we like it or not, yet will continue to pray for the libyan and my libyan friends, stay bless all

Whilst not proclaiming the west as Libya's saviour, it has all but halted the regimes advance Eastward, and destroyed over 30% of their heavy weapons and storage sites, If yhe UN hadn't become involved then their would have been MANY more innocent casualties and Gaddafi's regime would be back in total control.


Monetory sanctions have been emplaced,assets siezed embargos on oil export from the West of the country, what else would you suggest other than defensive military intervention ?

I would suggest they offer Gaddafi all his siezed assets if he stands down NOW and has democratic elections that are supervised by the UN, can't see it happening though.

FK we are in total agreement, we both want what is best for the Libyan people and pray they get it. I miss my friends and the country so much.

It is very sad that the majority of the world has no idea of the reality on the ground in the west of the country.  War will not solve anything.  If you think this conflict can be resolved by war then you have been lulled to sleep by the daily propaganda that your TVs bring to you each day. 

The longer this conflict continues the more difficult it will be to have any sort of reconciliation.  It is so sad, the Libya we all know and loved is gone forever.  I just hope that a ceasefire can be negotiated so the death and destruction on both sides can stop. 

Here is a link to a side of the story that is not being told by mainstream media. 

http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/06/going … -in-libya/

Stop the war in Libya!

bluejay wrote:

It is very sad that the majority of the world has no idea of the reality on the ground in the west of the country.  War will not solve anything.  If you think this conflict can be resolved by war then you have been lulled to sleep by the daily propaganda that your TVs bring to you each day. 

The longer this conflict continues the more difficult it will be to have any sort of reconciliation.  It is so sad, the Libya we all know and loved is gone forever.  I just hope that a ceasefire can be negotiated so the death and destruction on both sides can stop. 

Here is a link to a side of the story that is not being told by mainstream media. 

http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/06/going … -in-libya/

Stop the war in Libya!

Bluejay,
       whem one side REFUSES point blank to negotiate (prior to UN intervention), and when they do it is only on THEIR terms, what else would you suggest ?. I was in Libya when this civil war started, I witnessed people go from pro goverment to anti goverment overnight when they found out about the foreign mercenaries that Gaddafi brought in to murder his own people.

Now I will say that the fact Libya is 'oil rich' plays a massive part in the wests intervention. The UN has stated that the 'regime must stand down' and democratic elections then to take place. The regime has said they 'will fight to the last man and the last bullet (easy for a coward to say when he himself is not in the direct firing line 24x7)?.

What would you say is the solution ?, if the west pulls out it's support, the regime will be back in full control, and the repercussions will reverberate for a very long time, with a massive amount of 'blood scores' to settle.

There were no foreign mercenaries which is the sad truth.  So many falsely accused, lynched and cut into pieces.  The story of what happened will eventually come out like it did in Iraq with weapons of mass destruction. 

I too was in Libya and have remained in Libya since the beginning of this crisis and witnessed first-hand the tweets telling people to arm themselves and get Saidi at his hotel in Benghazi and then at the army barracks.  I also heard callers on BBC English stating that they were armed and heading down to Green Square to deal with the pro-Qaddafi supporters.  Remember the funny thing about the truth: there is your side, my side and then the truth. 

It is very hard for you to know the whole story since there has been a total news blackout on what is truly happening on the ground. You are getting only one side of the story and it has been cleaned up for Western consumption.  The nitty-gritty of it all is that horrific things have happened at the hands of the rebels and this has not gotten out into mainstream media.  One example, civilian witnesses have stated that they estimate one whole tribe has been killed in Misratah. Blood scores have been taking place from the very beginning. 

There has been an amnesty in place for all rebel fighters for some time now.  Hundreds have handed in their weapons, but have you heard about that?  Hundreds of rebels who were captured in the first weeks of fighting have been released to their families, did that make the news?  I am just saying that there is more than one side of the story and I am seeing it everyday and yet the international press does not mention it.

To continue the fighting will just add to the death and destruction.  Dialogue is the only solution and then there will  be a referendum on the future of Libya.  There will need to be some sort of reconciliation process as well, as the Libya of old is dead and gone.  Very, very sad indeed.

bluejay wrote:

There were no foreign mercenaries which is the sad truth.  So many falsely accused, lynched and cut into pieces.  The story of what happened will eventually come out like it did in Iraq with weapons of mass destruction. 

I too was in Libya and have remained in Libya since the beginning of this crisis and witnessed first-hand the tweets telling people to arm themselves and get Saidi at his hotel in Benghazi and then at the army barracks.  I also heard callers on BBC English stating that they were armed and heading down to Green Square to deal with the pro-Qaddafi supporters.  Remember the funny thing about the truth: there is your side, my side and then the truth. 

It is very hard for you to know the whole story since there has been a total news blackout on what is truly happening on the ground. You are getting only one side of the story and it has been cleaned up for Western consumption.  The nitty-gritty of it all is that horrific things have happened at the hands of the rebels and this has not gotten out into mainstream media.  One example, civilian witnesses have stated that they estimate one whole tribe has been killed in Misratah. Blood scores have been taking place from the very beginning. 

There has been an amnesty in place for all rebel fighters for some time now.  Hundreds have handed in their weapons, but have you heard about that?  Hundreds of rebels who were captured in the first weeks of fighting have been released to their families, did that make the news?  I am just saying that there is more than one side of the story and I am seeing it everyday and yet the international press does not mention it.

To continue the fighting will just add to the death and destruction.  Dialogue is the only solution and then there will  be a referendum on the future of Libya.  There will need to be some sort of reconciliation process as well, as the Libya of old is dead and gone.  Very, very sad indeed.

Here speaks a pro regime supporter I suppose !!. I have been in regular contact with my friends who are still in Libya. You blame the west for believing everything the western media reports, yet some of you are the complete polar opposite. Have you spoken to anyone in the East of Libya about the mercenaries that were initially responsible for some of the killing in Benghazi ?, or are you one of the 'blinkered ones' who see only the money grabbing evil west trying to intervene for the sake of the oil ?, and denying what almost constitues genocide from Gaddafi and his cohorts.

Have you been fired upon by Gaddafi militia for having the temerity to call them cowards for firing indiscriminately into the air in a narrow street with children hanging over their balconies watching ?, have you seen the dead bodies of young men who's only crime was to gather together in peace (un-armed)and then refuse to move on until fired upon by soldiers of the Libyan army ?.

Their are always more than one side to any story, but to blindly believe as you seem to strikes me as ignorance.

We all want and end to this conflict and peace to return to Libya, but this is going to take time, and will NEVER happen whilst Gaddafi remains in power (unless we Westerners are more money grabbing than I think we are !!).

Clanman, 
Like I said before there is more than one side to the story and you obviously only want to hear that side.  As for not knowing the reality, I know families who received the cut up pieces of their loved ones because they were falsely accused of being mercenaries.  I am neither ignorant or blinded, but I like to know both sides which I guess to you means I must be a Qaddafi supporter. 
Good day to you Clansman.

bluejay wrote:

Clanman, 
Like I said before there is more than one side to the story and you obviously only want to hear that side.  As for not knowing the reality, I know families who received the cut up pieces of their loved ones because they were falsely accused of being mercenaries.  I am neither ignorant or blinded, but I like to know both sides which I guess to you means I must be a Qaddafi supporter. 
Good day to you Clansman.

My sympathy and prayers go out to all who have lost loved ones through this tragedy. What I was driving at was that the coverage you get in Libya of the conflict (like the lies about the baby being injured via a Nato bombing attack, which was proved to be a propaganda lie later on) are tending to make people blinkered. Not helped by the illegal war in Iraq re the supposed WMD (was never the case just a western excuse to remove Hussein).

During a civil war, many despicable deeds are carried out on both sides. But try and explain this to me - If he is so popular in Tripoli and with 'his people' why at the start of the conflict (prior to NATO being involved) did the troops stationed just down the road from my house (whom I was friendly with) change into civilian clothes ?.

Edit sorry I also forgot to ask, if his regime stands for the good of Libya, why are some of his ministers deserting along with numerous high ranking army officials, both groups stating that he has ordered attrocities to be commited in order to hold on to control ?

We obviously both want this to end for the good of the people and the country, lets hope and pray it is over sooner rather than later, and with as few lives lost as possible.

Clansman, I don't like to get into these discussions online because they lead to nowhere. No amount of Internet bickering can change a persons opinion, but I feel the need to chime in as your posts seem heavily skewed.

#1 - This war in Libya was originally sold by NATO to the world as "Qadaffi & his oppressive government & his mean military &  African mercenaries" against the "the civilan population". This story magically changed within a couple of weeks after  into "forces loyal to Qadaffi" vs "rebels". Note, NATO refuse to claim anymore that it's all military and mercs against civilians -- because, as it turnes out, there seems to be a large number of civilains who chose to fight againts the rebels. Gaddafi doesn't have than many civillains on his payroll to enttice them to pick up arms and fight so it's fair to assume these rebels are not as good natured towards other Libyans as NATO is wiling to portray them. 

#2 - The approximate number of casualities in the Feb protests was between 100 to 200 max, depending on whom you chose to believe. It's a bad number, but its good to keep it in context with the region. That is probably how many people die per day regularly in Congo, Nigiera and Somalia due to internal problems and no one from NATO lifts a finger. That original number is also NOWHERE near as bad as the 20,000+ casualities estimated by now plus the 500,000 displaced refugees and not to mention the billons of $'s in damages to Libyan infrastructure which when this is over, repartitions from NATO, if there are any, will hardly cover one building repair. On top of that, you need to add the complete desctruction of families, medical and psychological destruction of a very large number of civilians lives. NATO and Modern Warfare games do not mention what happens to a persons body and mind as they sit in their house watching their children and waiting for a bomb to fall on them from nowhere and kill them all. You are looking at psyciological problems, blood preassure, heart conditions, diabetes problems and many others medical conditions which will develop and have to be tended to my someone for the remainder of their lives.

#3 - Lastly, NATO claim to have dropped 600+ bombs and spent  close to 1 billion dollars bomding what is a relativaly small streach of land hugging the coastline. Gadaffi and his little military which were originally describled as tiny, useless, under trained and underfunded, and would be wiped out in 3 days. Well here we are, 3 months later and counting, and Canada just announced an extension of 3 months in the bombing campaign. 

This is a civil war in all respects. Ethniticity is a non-issue as over 90% of the population are Arab. Only 10% are minorities -- Berber, Tuareg, Negroid and others. So these are Arabs fighting Arabs.

We can sit around and fantasize all we want about tribes and loyalties, but the fact is, very little is know or understood about the inner forces, who is against whom and for what reasons. The inner workings within Libya have been in blackout and kept under tight wrap and firm fisted control for 40+ years by the Qadaffi regieme.  The only thing you know is that he overthrew Idris 40 years ago and since then they have been touting the Italian occupation and Omar Muktar history over and over again. The only person who knows is probably Qadaffi himself and he is not the clown in the clown suits and the tent which the media have been portraying him to be for the past 20 years.

ode2libya wrote:

Since there aren't any expats left in Libya

..some of my relatives are still in Libya, and most expats that are left there are Filipinos..

Hmmmm, also know of Brit's, Scot's and Maltese who stayed as they work at clinics etc, many expats have gone in to work as protection for the news crew's.
This idea that everyone just evacuated and left Libya to it is starting to grate, there are a lot of us who still do as much as we can to help both expats and Libyan friends in both Tripoli & Benghazi. There are also a few of us that know what is going on, both sides, and seeing this forum used as a propaganda tool by those who wish to spread fear & lies (again, both sides) is becoming depressing.

officeboy wrote:

Hmmmm, also know of Brit's, Scot's and Maltese who stayed as they work at clinics etc, many expats have gone in to work as protection for the news crew's.
This idea that everyone just evacuated and left Libya to it is starting to grate, there are a lot of us who still do as much as we can to help both expats and Libyan friends in both Tripoli & Benghazi. There are also a few of us that know what is going on, both sides, and seeing this forum used as a propaganda tool by those who wish to spread fear & lies (again, both sides) is becoming depressing.

Media make their bread by selling "fear & lies". If you think you are that well connected to the ruling gov. and think you know what is really going on, please feel free to share as there seems to be a great many desparate people in the world who are out of work and would like to go work there now.

As a former Yugoslav, I can tell you, anyone in their right mind leaves war zones if they have the money and means, or can scrap it together, to get out. The only people that stay behind are the ones too poor and broke to leave.

btw - as you are a brit, you are naturally aware that libyans are much more afraid of harming you than they are philipinos, turks, pakistanis and bulgarians.

Douglas1969, very jaded mate, some people stay behind to help the injured, to help those too poor or those who, for whatever reason, are unable to leave.

If we all just thought of ourselves, as a lot of you guys on this forum do, the world would be in worse shape than it is now.

officeboy wrote:

Douglas1969, very jaded mate, some people stay behind to help the injured, to help those too poor or those who, for whatever reason, are unable to leave.

If we all just thought of ourselves, as a lot of you guys on this forum do, the world would be in worse shape than it is now.

Officeboy, you make a very valid point which I hand't thought  of in my post. I can accept your view. I assume you are in the medical or humanitarian aid profession.

bluejay wrote:

There were no foreign mercenaries which is the sad truth. 

Absolute bollocks. I am a Libyan and I made it out a few days ago. Had I been in a position to respond to any of this nonsense before, I would have done , but not for the internet outage. I can tell you that THERE ARE foreign mercernaries in Tripoli, after having been stopped at checkpoints several times and seeing and hearing French-speaking sub-saharan folk.

There has been an amnesty in place for all rebel fighters for some time now.  Hundreds have handed in their weapons, but have you heard about that?  Hundreds of rebels who were captured in the first weeks of fighting have been released to their families, did that make the news?  I am just saying that there is more than one side of the story and I am seeing it everyday and yet the international press does not mention it.

More bollocks from the Green Flag brigade. By rebel fighters, do you mean the majority of ordinary Libyans who want rid of the Gaddafi Mafia?
To continue the fighting will just add to the death and destruction. 

Either the opposition die fighting or they put down their weapons and wait to be picked off one by one...either in their street, home, cupboard. Long live a free and democratic Libya without the likes of Gaddafi and his rent-a -mob

uefastriker wrote:

bluejay wrote:

There were no foreign mercenaries which is the sad truth. 

Absolute bollocks. I am a Libyan and I made it out a few days ago. Had I been in a position to respond to any of this nonsense before, I would have done , but not for the internet outage. I can tell you that THERE ARE foreign mercernaries in Tripoli, after having been stopped at checkpoints several times and seeing and hearing French-speaking sub-saharan folk.

There has been an amnesty in place for all rebel fighters for some time now.  Hundreds have handed in their weapons, but have you heard about that?  Hundreds of rebels who were captured in the first weeks of fighting have been released to their families, did that make the news?  I am just saying that there is more than one side of the story and I am seeing it everyday and yet the international press does not mention it.

More bollocks from the Green Flag brigade. By rebel fighters, do you mean the majority of ordinary Libyans who want rid of the Gaddafi Mafia?
To continue the fighting will just add to the death and destruction. 

Either the opposition die fighting or they put down their weapons and wait to be picked off one by one...either in their street, home, cupboard. Long live a free and democratic Libya without the likes of Gaddafi and his rent-a -mob

Thank you UEFA, I am not stating that what the west in the form of NATO are doing is out of the kindness of their hearts, it is more to do with oil wealth. But those of us ex-pats who lived in Libya, fell in love with it's people and the country, and then witnessed (first hand) the murder of innocents start to get a bit irritated when we are accused of only caring for our own future and income. I have MANY friends (both Libyan, and now ex-pat as it turns out) still their, and I pray that a quick end can come about to this tragedy. Our prayers are with you all.

Come on let's finish it. Very frustrating.

Clansman wrote:

it is more to do with oil wealth.

Libya does not produce that much oil when compared to many other oil producers.

Clansman wrote:

and then witnessed (first hand) the murder of innocents start to get a bit irritated when we are accused of only caring for our own future and income. .

Compared to the those who witness the murder of innocents in Syria or Yemen?

There is no leader who has emerged from the rebels in the 3+ months of fighting because none exists. Mark my words, this is going to end stupidly. Qadaffi will be replaced by the son whom he has been grooming to replace him and things will go back to business as usual.

Douglas1969: you seem to be baiting people on purpose... can I ask why?

Clansman made no comparison to Syria or Yemen, yet you seem to be trying to create an argument from every statement.

You got out safely, you stayed out, be happy you are safe and well. If you have anything constructive to add, please do so, if all you want to do is cause friction, please, go elsewhere.
OB.

OB I don't even know if Douglas has ever even been to Libya, not even mentioned in his profile if he has. Thanks anyway, the Transitional National Council can't/wont appoint a leader until fair democratic elections are confirmed as happening. As for any of Gaddafi's family taking over, Douglas has carefully ignored all statements from NATO and Obama in particular re that family.

Can't convince them all I suppose. Good luck OB mate.

officeboy wrote:

Douglas1969: you seem to be baiting people on purpose... can I ask why?

Clansman made no comparison to Syria or Yemen, yet you seem to be trying to create an argument from every statement.

You got out safely, you stayed out, be happy you are safe and well. If you have anything constructive to add, please do so, if all you want to do is cause friction, please, go elsewhere.
OB.

Beh. "Baiting" because I dont agree with NATO or towing the bullocks  arab spring revolution/freedom party line? And I am expected to agree with you because a) I am white b) I am a westerner c) the fight for freedom and democracy turned out so well for Afgansitan and Iraq?

I am not going anywhere. No where does it say this forum is for the right wing leaning only. If you want to hang out on pro-NATO or pro-War forums, feel free to use google.com and take your pick. You will have no trouble finding them. They are filled with couch potato warriors who have never had to put on a uniform in their life.

Clansman wrote:

OB I don't even know if Douglas has ever even been to Libya, not even mentioned in his profile if he has. Thanks anyway, the Transitional National Council can't/wont appoint a leader until fair democratic elections are confirmed as happening. As for any of Gaddafi's family taking over, Douglas has carefully ignored all statements from NATO and Obama in particular re that family.

Can't convince them all I suppose. Good luck OB mate.

We shall see mate. Saif has been on the international tour of "modernizing Libya" for the past 10 years and however much you may not like it, right now, he is the only Libyan educated, capable and qualified enough to do business with foreign companies on behalf of Libya. And last time I checked, foreign companies dont give a hoot about Libyan dates or oranges -- they just want to do business.

I have been in Libya and lived there long enough to tell you that Nalut is a very, very small place (unless real estate has somehow exploded on barren rocky unpopulated high alititude land!) and I can't for the life of me understand how the media are blowing it up to be some city(!) engulfed in cross fire.

Ahhhh, just checked your status, lived there until 1986, obviously I apologise and bow to your superior knowledge.

Moving on... too many nuggets appearing. Stay safe people, will update on Benghazi in about 10 day's. Then I'm off on a new adventure, so look out for me on here but under the Saudi header.

officeboy wrote:

Ahhhh, just checked your status, lived there until 1986, obviously I apologise and bow to your superior knowledge.

Moving on... too many nuggets appearing. Stay safe people, will update on Benghazi in about 10 day's. Then I'm off on a new adventure, so look out for me on here but under the Saudi header.

on your way to sucker some other poor 18 year old's to go fighting, are ye?

You really are a twat :-)

yes, you are right. if i was 12 i would get into an online flame war with you.

Clansman and OB, did you read Moel's article?
agreeablelife.wordpress.com-2011/03/27/libya-as-i-see-it
what did you understand from it?

To say that Saif is the only one capable and educated enough to move the country forward shows either a criminal lack of understanding of the situation in Libya or of Libyans as a people, and the plight of ordinary Libyans, or an underlying complicity of the repressive regime that has for far too long scuppered the aspirations of my people.

douglas1969 wrote:

officeboy wrote:

Douglas1969: you seem to be baiting people on purpose... can I ask why?

Clansman made no comparison to Syria or Yemen, yet you seem to be trying to create an argument from every statement.

You got out safely, you stayed out, be happy you are safe and well. If you have anything constructive to add, please do so, if all you want to do is cause friction, please, go elsewhere.
OB.

Beh. "Baiting" because I dont agree with NATO or towing the bullocks  arab spring revolution/freedom party line? And I am expected to agree with you because a) I am white b) I am a westerner c) the fight for freedom and democracy turned out so well for Afgansitan and Iraq?

I am not going anywhere. No where does it say this forum is for the right wing leaning only. If you want to hang out on pro-NATO or pro-War forums, feel free to use google.com and take your pick. You will have no trouble finding them. They are filled with couch potato warriors who have never had to put on a uniform in their life.

B0LL0X, you know nothing about ANY of our pasts, Serb perchance ?.OB is not 'a couch potato warrior' and neither am I or many other Brits whom I knew out in Libya, you brave enough to go back NOW as the likes of OB is doing to 'help the people' ?, thought not.

Masterr wrote:

Clansman and OB, did you read Moel's article?
agreeablelife.wordpress.com-2011/03/27/libya-as-i-see-it
what did you understand from it?

Masterr I missed it sorry, I deaply respect Mo's writing, and will read it.

uefastriker wrote:

To say that Saif is the only one capable and educated enough to move the country forward shows either a criminal lack of understanding of the situation in Libya or of Libyans as a people, and the plight of ordinary Libyans, or an underlying complicity of the repressive regime that has for far too long scuppered the aspirations of my people.

Your distaste for the family and the regime is what it is -- but what really matters is what the West and Western companies think of whom they would like to deal with. What they have been seeing for the past 10+ years is Saif's face parading on Western television and being hailed as the face of a new, modern, Western friendly Libya. Just watch what happens.

Clansman wrote:

B0LL0X, you know nothing about ANY of our pasts, Serb perchance ?

Now you are being daft. What does my ethniticity or whether you are Scott or Welsh have any to do with any of our disagreements over whether NATO is doing a good thing or making things worse in Libya for Libyans?

Masterr wrote:

Clansman and OB, did you read Moel's article?
agreeablelife.wordpress.com-2011/03/27/libya-as-i-see-it
what did you understand from it?

Actually a very poignant post and it brings up some questions  which has been evaded and unanswered and is the source of many consiiracy theories.

Libya "was" or "seemed" to have been on the cusp of massive change, in a very good way, just before all this happened. They were pro-West, they were building ties with the West and many multi-national corporations. They were participating on massive economic discussions of how to modernize the country and make it better for all citizens and then all this happened. I find it completely mind boggling how they went from Friend #1 to Enemy #1 within a span of a week!