Work Visa with no degree

@Mngedo

While you have provided more information than most, what you have provided is really scant for the level of detail that you require in your answer. That being stated, I will take a shot at it.

First of all, salary at a company is not determined by the Chinese government in any way, shape or form. It is determined by the company. And, only by the company. If the company is reducing your salary for reason XXXXX, it is their decision, not any rule, law or policy of China.

This is an absolute truth and not a debatable issue.

The only relationship between salary and the Chinese government is in the amount of taxes that are withheld out of your pay. To keep the taxes low, many (but not all) foreign companies pay expat salaries in two ways.

[1] They provide a visible salary (often small) where taxes are removed, and [2] a hidden salary which is deposited in your normal foreign bank account. It is my guess that this is what the company is going to do in your case.

They will pay you 26,000 RMB/month in China and pay the taxes on this. The remainder of your regular salary will be paid to your regular (normal) bank account and your home nation taxes will be deducted out of it.

26,000 RMB/month is a pretty decent salary. It is certainly a managers salary and you will be fine living under it.

That being stated, please note that it is very unusual for a company to cut your salary for a expat salary. It is also rare NOT to have a dual salary scheme for expats in China.

You also brought up another issue. That is the lack of a BA. Now, the BA (or in my case BS) is normally a prohibitive roadblock in the obtainment of a Z-visa. Normally.

However, if you are a key person at a company or offer other skills (think of Steve Jobs, or Bill Gates, both of whom don't have degrees) you can get a Z-visa as a sponsored expert. This is an application process that must be handled by your employer. It is unusual, but not unheard of.

If they want you in this role, then you will get the visa. It's pretty straightforward.

What you need to do is talk to your HR about the dual payment scheme that is used by just about every company working in China. Best Regards.

@Vannrox

Firstly, thank you so much for the details in response, this is much appreciated!

It is the immigration provider whom our company has engaged for work pass application advised that i should have the China paid salary at a min of RMB 26K in order to get a chance of approval. This is due to the requirement “earn four times the average local salary” Question is, are IIT typically borne by the individual or the company? From the online calculator the IIT works out to be about RMB 2,700 per month. This will be difficult for me and which also means there is nothing much to the second part of my salary (paid in home) I thought it could be straightforward but doesn’t seems to be

Thank you so much again for “listening”

If you are applying for the work permit there is indeed a correlation between the points system and your salary.   If you don't meed the min required points you won't be able to get the visa.  26k is not a particularly high salary (it's average) so it seems like a fairly standard requirement.  There are others too like work experience but it seems like you must have met those.

The IIT will typically be taken from your salary by the company.

Take a look at the link below:
https://ins-globalconsulting.com/chinas-new-work-visa/

I assume that you are earning 26k RMB/month that gets you 14 pts, your ten years of experience get you 10 points - equivalent of a fresh BSc graduate.
That puts you on 24 points - there are another (up to) 60 points up for grabs, based on duration of stay and skills etc. So depending on your exact situation you probably won't qualify tor tier A but may walk it into tier B.

I am working for Chinese aerospace manufacturer so a split salary was not an option for me - I was able to negotiate an "after tax" salary figure which I was happy with, so it doesn't make any difference to me really. Maybe you can discuss this with your company.

All the best

VANNROX wrote:

....You also brought up another issue. That is the lack of a BA. Now, the BA (or in my case BS) is normally a prohibitive roadblock in the obtainment of a Z-visa. Normally. ....

Do you need to graduate from an accredited educational institute which is recognized by the authorities before you can use the qualifications you obtain to apply for the relevant visa?

The determination of the validity of your diploma is wholly up to the Chinese officials. In general, however, if the school is "brick and mortar", then they would probably accept your diploma. I have a BS from an accredited university. My ESL certificate was online but done in association with a physical school. I never had any problems.

Dear Mngedo:

The short answer is YES you can get a visa without a BA but it will not be easy.  In some cases it's impossible now.  Shanghai will NOT hire without a BA so you will need to figure it out.  My suggestion to you is get your BA, find an on-line school (accredited) and start.  The longer you put it off the longer it will take.  Begin with a 2 year program and get your Associate degree first.  There are good schools where you can do this and if you are motivated you can do it faster...and some now will take work experience into account.  Excelsior College is one such school. 

Next, taxes in China are easy to understand once you figure it out.  As a foreigner you can deduct stuff from your Gross pay which will reduce your tax liability.  I have done this in another thread somewhere...but here is the deal, you are allowed to deduct your rent and travel (local buses etc) and food and anything really related to your job.  These are all legal deductions!  Your employer will not want to do it but it's totally legal.

We deduct rent and travel so reduce the taxes (legally) for our employees.  So example:

You earn 26,000 and everyone gets 5000 right off the top as a standard deduction.  So your taxable pay is 21,000 and that means you will be in the 20% tax bracket if no other deductions are done.  21,000 x 20% = 4200 (less another standard deduction of 1410) = 2790 taxes...this is what you pay if we don't reduce it legally.

Now we can deduct your rent which in Shanghai could be 8000 and local travel allowance of let's say 1000 so that means I can take another 9000 off so 21000 - 9000 = 12,000 and now you are in the 10% bracket.  1200 - 210 = 990 taxes

So, 26,000 - 990 = 25010 net and if you can find even more legal deductions you can pay even less.  It's the reason as an employer I keep the salary low and instead do a rent and travel allowance to make up the difference.  Your employer could if they want to do the same legally.

I suggest you get your degree...if you have any school already then see how many credits you can get for what you already have.  I am in the process of working with an accredited school in CA to help my teachers who do not have degrees begin the process to get one.  It's the best perk I can think of to get new teachers and keep older ones, get your education.

I wish you all the best.

LRai

Dear all,

Thank you so much for all the tips and advises. A quick update on my situation, my immigration provider was suggesting that i will have to meet min 60 on the points system and i barely but managed to add up to the number. So keeping my fingers crossed.

Now i have new questions, the plan is for me to arrive in China with M visa and they will submit the application. How is this process different from arriving with a Z visa?
I am imagining that i would feel more secure if i could submit the application, get approval before i leave for China (especially with my situation) . Any thoughts?

Dear Mngedo:

Please PM me and I will explain more.  Since it is applicable to you directly I don't feel I should post that info here.

I am not familiar with the M visa but I caution you on coming with anything other than a Z visa.  I think you need to do your homework and check out websites that will give you more info on what exactly is an M visa before you decide to do this.

That's my best advice.

LRai

Here is a link (it's a little old but may still help) http://www.visainchina.com/fvisa.htm

This link gives info on M type visas.  They are for business commerce only and are very temporary.  You can work with one but YOU CAN NOT TEACH ON THIS TYPE OF VISA

Hope this helps some

@lrai you stated that you are in the process of working with s school in CA... May I ask which school, and how do I start classes there? I previously taught in China, in several public and private schools, all ages and in many cities. Will that help get me a job faster in China, even though I don't have a ba/bs, but have enough points for an "expert visa" (hahahaha)

Thank you.

-Dillon.

Hello Dillonb,

It's been 5 months since Irai visited the forum.

You can start a new thread on the China forum to ask your questions.

Maybe other members will be able to provide you with all information that you need.

Cheers,

Cheryl

Expat.com team

@Dillonb but have enough points for an "expert visa"

That statement is interesting to me...I also don't have a BA/BS (though I do have a 'higher education' qualification), but have been a 'foreign expert' previously and worked 'at a school'...since then, though, I have been refused as a teacher due to not having a Bachelor's Degree. Do you have any references that refer to this alternative route?

Cheryl:

Yes I have been away from the forum for a bit, however I will respond to both of these questions via a PM as it would be best that way.

Dillionb and mrangry:

I have sent you both a PM, in general you must now have a BA to get a visa for teaching in China.  The points that dillion is speaking about refer to a system where the foreign expert office and the visa granting (PSB) award so many points for each category when they decide on who can get a visa.  You get points for education, for age (younger is better), for work experience etc.  You must have at least the min. amount to be considered. 

The final word on this is if you want to work in China at this time (2022-2023) you need a minimum of a BA in the field which you will teach, so if you want to teach English then it must be in English, or Education.  They make very few exceptions.  Also be prepared, training schools are no longer a good option, they are being put out of business here in China.  English is no longer a key subject so finding teaching jobs is not easy and right now most of us are teaching on-line (if not all of us).  The situation as of today Tuesday Dec. 20 is that where I live in the NE of China many people are sick now with flu, colds, and COVID.  Nothing is open due to sickness, we are not locked-down but nothing is open or working.  It's very hard right now to imagine after 3 years of this we are still not making much progress.  Working in China is not something you should consider lightly.  The road ahead will not be easy (not like in the past) and unless you are made of really strong stuff this is not the place to come at this time.

I really hope this is helpful   LRai

Hello lrai,

Happy to have you back!

Thank you for sharing this detailed message with us!

Cheers,

Yoginee

Expat.com team

yoginee:

I guess I have been away...LOL  After so many lock-downs this past year time has lost all meaning to me.  Always happy to help.

LRai

I'm still curious. I'm not specifically interested in teaching or working as a teacher (the original post didn't mention teaching), and I'm already in China (though not on a work visa).

I wonder how it turned out for @mngedo...did you make it? If so, then 'just in time', I guess

@Mngedo What?

Realistically, my salary is not sufficient for the Income Tax which would be applicable for RMB 26K.

This makes no sense.  Why would your salary not be sufficent for the IIT?  IIT is taken out of any salary regardless of amount.

@lrai

Great to hear from you. Yes. I advise everyone that China today is a challenge. Most people in the West have no idea what that means. Actually.

@Mngedo Hi Mngedo,

Understand your situation, I'd like to ask if you have a master degree? And you have more than 2-years of working experience? If you do, I may be able to help in obtaining a VISA, feel free to send me an email or message, and I could share you more information in regards

General reply to this thread:

If you want a z visa for China now (2023) it will require a BA degree.  If you are considering a teaching job then that degree must be in the subject you plan to teach.  Not all provinces have the same rules some are very strict and others not as strict.  There is a point system that has been discussed here and you would need to go to the link and see if you have enough points to qualify.  The tax table can also be found on line and it's pretty easy to navigate that.  Keep in mind that a salary in a 1st tier city (ie: Beijing, Shanghai) is usually much higher but then so are the living expenses especially rent.  You can do very well in a 2nd or 3rd tier city on a lower salary b/c the costs are also lower.

China is open for the most part now and COVID issues are few.  However, no one can say for sure what will be and there is always the chance we could have another episode.  Things are not back to normal (pre-COVID) but this is now the NEW normal.

Is China still a good option for someone who is looking for work?  Well it depends.  I can only speak to my industry which is teaching English at the public, private, or training center level.  This isn't a very stable industry at this time (we were under attack before COVID and since COVID it's been very difficult).  We have managed as a company to stay in business and keep our foreign staff, many other big name companies did not survive the last 3 years.  In our city we have lost about 70% of the foreign teachers and getting new teachers has been tough.  In the last 3 years we could NOT hire any new teachers from outside of China and I was lucky to find local teachers who needed work b/c their companies had closed or stopped paying them.

We are just now starting the letter of invite process again for new visas for teachers outside of China.  That process just re-opened late in Feb/early Mar 2023.  It is taking much longer than in the past and it's much tougher now.  New teachers must have a BA in English or Education otherwise we can't get them the Z-visa status.  We can get a working visa but it won't be for teaching and in some cases we have done that but we don't like doing it.  Converting visas to other status after the fact is very hard. 

Just to be clear, China had begun a program where if you graduated from a Chinese college in language you could convert that student visa to a working visa.  The process is daunting and we did it only to find out at the very last step that it was denied.  We ended up sending the teacher back to his home country and resubmitting all the paperwork for a regular working visa.  In short student visas can't be transferred, there may be some exceptions but they are exceptions and not the rule.  You can't convert a tourist or business visa to a working visa, so don't believe anyone who tries to tell you that it can be done.

Finally, the PSB (foreign bureau that deals with expats working in China) is getting very tough on foreigners working illegally here in China.  If you have a Z-visa you are only allowed to work for the company that got you that visa and taking other work on the side is illegal and if you get caught it's very serious.  One of our teachers (without our knowledge) took a side job and got caught.  The teacher was arrested and now has a criminal record in China.  This means once their contract is done with us they must leave China and can never come back.  They were also made to pay a hefty fine.  It's serious stuff.

Okay, I hope this is helpful to others who are thinking of coming to China to work.

@VANNROX

Nice to be back here, the last year was really tough, but our company has survived and so did I.  2023 had a rough start for personal reasons but I am on the mend and doing fairly well.  We hope we can stay working in classrooms and not have to teach on-line again.  If we can get at least one "normal" year again under our belts we may then be doing okay.

Hope all is good with you.

Take care

@lrai

Wonderful to hear from you!

I am retired. Well, I suppose you are never fully "retired", but trying to adjust to new realities while keeping busy. (If that makes any sense.)

Doing well.

We moved into a "small" town in Southern Zhongshan. Cost of living is so much nicer here, but driving a car is pure insanity.

You are 100% correct. China is now post-COVID, and it is a NEW reality. Whatever China was in 2019 is long gone. It's something completely different. That's for certain.

The funny thing is that many foreigners think that "OK, COVID is over, now I can go to China". Not so fast buddy. China has tightened up. Got far more serious. And "knuckled down".

I have always advised people "Do not come to China unless you obey the law", and that is now underlined, put in bold with three exclamation points.

China has much to offer a kind, helpful hard-working person. But the days of the dregs (you know what I mean) getting a visitor visa and planning to backpack their way though China while teaching English are over. Additionally, ESL teacher must know how to prep for classwork, know how to conjugate verbs, and be ready to go over and above... up their game... to work in China.

If you want an easy gig, go to Cambodia. Not China.

My little girl is in Kindergarten now. I often volunteer at her school for various roles. China is a participation society. So I don the yellow vest and do school crossing guards, clean the streets with a broom, raise the flag and occasionally offer a free English class. It's what you do when you BELONG.

I love China.

Hope things are good with you as well.

-VANNROX

yep, total agree with all you have said.  I got really sick in Jan. 2023 and so I am on the mend and I will be partially retired starting this year.  However I am on another 3 yr visa and planning to stay as long as I can.  Life here has it's quirks but overall it's not bad.