Health Insurance Hungary

A bit out of the blue, just wondering, are you retired, do you have employment, do you have your own company, early retirment (ie younger than 65)? Differs quite a bit between the various scenarios.
A bit of background is I am afraid essential.

Hi thanks for the reply, young retired at 53, not working so no pension coming in.
I was looking for basic health cover, the EHIC was enough until this year
Thanks again
Bob

Bongabob wrote:

Hi thanks for the reply, young retired at 53, not working so no pension coming in.
I was looking for basic health cover, the EHIC was enough until this year
Thanks again
Bob

I am not at liberty to share details but do not buy Generali. They let someone I know here down, really let them down in their time of need.

I do not know about your financial situation, but early retirement sounds good (also as for your financial means). You apparently have a residency permit to live here so it really should be quite easy as far as health insurance is concerned (I would suggest (I did myself) create a Kft, employ yourselves and your wife and all is done, (If you can create some " income" you can also offset quite some VAT)

Of course having a company creates some expenses, but also quite some savings. If you are actually having a residency permit you must have quite a good (financial) situation I would imagine,

I personally do not like any commercial health insurance, I am perfectly happy with the government scheme. (this will be around or even less then EUR 30 pm (which I think for European standards is not too high (I have to say you have to account that you pay for the dentist yourselves))

Question (for most) why Hungary, but very welcome nonetheless.

Bongabob wrote:

Hi thanks for the reply, young retired at 53, not working so no pension coming in.
I was looking for basic health cover, the EHIC was enough until this year
Thanks again
Bob

Are you trying to get a TAJ card and have you been told that you cannot make voluntary contributions for the health care component of social security?

Post-Brexit fallout?

For other readers I hope this will not become yet another Furniture thread, but I stay positive at this stage.

cdw057 wrote:

I do not know about your financial situation, but early retirement sounds good (also as for your financial means). You apparently have a residency permit to live here so it really should be quite easy as far as health insurance is concerned (I would suggest (I did myself) create a Kft, employ yourselves and your wife and all is done, (If you can create some " income" you can also offset quite some VAT)

Of course having a company creates some expenses, but also quite some savings. If you are actually having a residency permit you must have quite a good (financial) situation I would imagine,

I personally do not like any commercial health insurance, I am perfectly happy with the government scheme. (this will be around or even less then EUR 30 pm (which I think for European standards is not too high (I have to say you have to account that you pay for the dentist yourselves))

That's a relatively expensive way of getting state healthcare. 

100 EUR a month book keeping and capital/foundation requirements tied up for the Kft (~10K EUR/3M HUF equivalents). 

And the VAT you can only get if you charge VAT (used to be like that anyway). 

Maybe the obvious way to do it is to loan the Kft the foundation costs personally and then this debt will generate losses for some years or never be paid back.

Bongabob wrote:

Good Morning
Could any body recommend a basic health cover insurance company for Hungary ?
Many thanks

Please explain your situation?

Your profile says you are English, so when did you move?

I did this in Bulgaria, but the principle is the same anywhere in the EU. I registered as unemployed for social security, and pay my monthly contribution (13 euros in my case). This entitles me to free (or nearly free) state healthcare in Bulgaria. And I got a Bulgarian-issued EHIC which covers me when I'm elsewhere in the EU.

- @gwynj

I think this works in any EU country, even after Brexit. UK citizens, if they're a legal resident (whether obtained before or after Brexit), are entitled to contribute to the local social security system. Contributions (depending on amount/number) then entitle you to the country's usual benefits of pensions, unemployment, and state healthcare (and EHIC).

- @gwynj

Ah... yes... that's a whole other issue. There is a process for doing that (and I don't know if it works for Brits post-Brexit, but I'd guess it does).

I didn't touch my UK NI... just packed my bags and left. And then started from scratch as an EU newbie. So I know zilch about the transfer process, sorry!

The health cover comes pretty quickly (a couple of months of contributions) and this was the main issue for me.

If you're young and you're concerned about pension, then maybe a transfer could be useful. But, even then, I'd suggest that it's worth considering just starting from scratch in the new country (but only if their minimum years for pension coincides with your expected stay there). I worked in France for a few years, and I didn't do the transfer then either... so I have wasted/stranded contributions there as I didn't work long enough to qualify for the French minimum pension.

If you're a bit more mature (if you've been married 30+ years you probably are), then it might be quite interesting to top up your UK pension with voluntary self-employed NICs (which are cheap as chips). I think I paid about 15 years of NICs to get to a full UK pension entitlement.

- @gwynj

Maybe HU let's you top up too? If he has 9 years, he just needs to contribute 6. Probably won't be much of a pension anyway, but every little helps. :-)

I'm not sure what the "HU citizen" question is for (but maybe it's just a shortcut, he assumes all citizens get free treatment, which is a common doctor assumption in the UK too), but I would not simply answer "no". I would clarify that I am a permanent resident (and I'd imagine you are by now). In theory, a HU PR has to be treated identically to a HU citizen in every respect except the right to vote.

- @gwynj

Maybe HU let's you top up too? If he has 9 years, he just needs to contribute 6. Probably won't be much of a pension anyway, but every little helps. :-)

I'm not sure what the "HU citizen" question is for (but maybe it's just a shortcut, he assumes all citizens get free treatment, which is a common doctor assumption in the UK too), but I would not simply answer "no". I would clarify that I am a permanent resident (and I'd imagine you are by now). In theory, a HU PR has to be treated identically to a HU citizen in every respect except the right to vote.

- @gwynj

@cdw057

I'm not sure how I offended you. I said that the UK full pension is a very useful income, especially if you are living in a lower-cost country such as Hungary or Bulgaria (or Turkey). Hence, I think it's a good idea to top-up and try to maximize your entitlement. I also appreciate that this doesn't much interest you as you're not a UK citizen. But I'd guess the Netherlands has a similar system. Or perhaps you have a nice fat pension anyway, in which case, well done you! :-)

Personally, I'm not at all looking forward to being 66 (wow, that sounds so old!), but 180 quid a week will be a nice birthday bonus. :-)

Separately, I thank you for your concern about my financial well-being. :-) But even without the UK pension, I think I'll be OK.

UK PENSION

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, I thought I'd explained it was 35 years requirement for a full pension, hence each year of contributions (or voluntary contributions) is worth 1/35th of the full weekly pension. And, of course, you are right that you try to top-up to 35 years, not more. (Although some who work do end up making more contributions, as it's obligatory, even though the pension won't increase.)

It's a great point that there is a limit of 7 prior years. But if someone was, say, 55, that still gives a lot of flexibility for topping up (7 prior years, 11 future years, total 18). There is, I believe, some extra leeway (10 years 2006-2016) depending on your age (born after 1951) because of the introduction of the new state pension. In your case, I'd guess, roughly 7 past, and 5 future = 12. Plus, as your retirement is fairly soon, the extra 10 years leeway likely applies to you (so, 22 years roughly, or 60% of a full pension).

There are some other rules, of course, I had tried to simplify. But, in short, it's worth having, if you're eligible. If you've already made 35 years contributions and you'll be getting a full pension, congratulations. If not, it's perhaps worth getting a pension forecast / NI record, and reading about this process.

https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-i … tributions

I've had the forecast and there's no value in additional contributions.  Never been informed on additional contributions with a leeway of 10 extra years as I would pay if it helped.  Never seen a link on what difference it would make.  It's like I've become paid up.

Mrs Fluffy has  been investigating how to pay voluntarily  back payments into the system here - she has  some gaps as she was travelling the world with me until the kids arrived.   She hasn't had a lot of luck finding out and if it's worth it here.   She's not that far away from retirement age herself.  As a local, it's a lot easier for her to find out. 

Always useful to see a link to see official info.

EU DIRECTIVES

If you read the EU directives, you will see that there are specific rights granted to "long term" EU residents, or permanent residents. This is part of the EU's aspirations for freedom of movement, social and professional mobility, and social integration.

The directives are quite clear that these rights are considered almost identical to the rights that come with a Hungarian (other EU) passport, which we similarly enjoyed with our UK passports prior to Brexit. You will find that a lot of national legislation across the EU mentions citizens or nationals... but also clarifies elsewhere that this includes EU long-term residents.

If you already have your HU PR, you can relocate elsewhere in the EU, for whatever reason, and you only have to meet the same formalities as EU passport holders (proof of address, proof of funds, proof of health insurance).

Need a link on that. 

My understanding is that there's no freedom of movement for British people now, even with HU PR.   The 5 year PR is not inter-EU transferrable until after 5 years when an 10 year EU blue card is required.  Then it's a kind of freedom of movement again.  It's not automatically given.   Needs to be applied for.  Yet another plastic card to justify existence here or anywhere.

BTW, our Brexit PR cards say Article 50 rights on them. 

BTW, the previous registration cards used here before PR cards became mandatory were not recognised outside of HU (in 2021).  It was a PITA crossing Schengen borders.  I haven't crossed a Schengen border outside of HU since because I was hassled in Germany by thick headed border guards.  I now don't travel across Schengen borders outside of Hungary now.  Only direct flights back to the UK.

Passports feel a bit more secure, so I suppose it's an emotional issue. My partner is fixated on getting her Spanish passport, even though, as an EU PR, there will be very limited practical benefit. So, in this context, perhaps you feel that a residence permit is only a vague "permission" that can be withdrawn on a whim. This is not the case... and especially not with a PR. If you read this bit of the directive, it's very clear that once you have the PR it must be automatically renewable.

It's not an emotional issue.   Passport - EU or local - is definitely going to be useful.   There would be no need to mess about at immigration.   Passport control doesn't give you a second look with EU documents and we wouldn't  have  to plead for them not to stamp our passports which is only going to lead to trouble.   

I would disagree that PR provides any rights at all.  It's very hard to deport an EU citizen but here, things are more mercurial, ideologically and politically driven.  PR seems like it could be rejected or removed without reference to any claim of (EU) treaty rights, especially on political grounds. 

Got a specific link on these EU directive references for automatic renewal and automatic rights with equivalence to EU citizens' rights?

EU SOCIAL SECURITY

You may have tried to enroll in the Hungarian social security system in your first years (as a temporary resident) and been rebuffed. I am quietly confident that if you return with your PR card, you have to be accepted. But there are many foreign workers who come to Hungary too. If they have a job (as an employee with an employment contract) then they have to make social security contributions (even if they are not HU citizens or HU PRs). This is similar across the EU, as legal residents (temporary or permanent) have to be allowed some way of accessing the social security system, both for contributions, and any ensuing benefits.

EHIC

It is still possible to use your UK EHIC, but it's probably not correct (or, strictly speaking, legal) to do so! There is an obscure category of crime that is "health insurance fraud". More commonly it's foreigners (or, potentially, long-term British expats) coming to the UK in order to obtain fabulous UK NHS hospital treatment free of charge. But, similarly, it applies to folks using EHICs (or GHICs) outside the UK when they're not entitled to.

That's quite true, they are not supposed to be used if not resident in the UK.   

I've had mine in my wallet, but I've never used it. So I have no idea if there's any level of checking as to my entitlement to use it. Maybe they just check it hasn't expired and everybody's happy. :-)

I have used my UK one some years ago, pre-Brexit and it wasn't entirely worth the effort. It was easier to just pay in cash and skip the messing about.    It was slightly cheaper to get the medicines but it was hardly a lot.   But when I used it way back, they took all the numbers.   

Many years ago, we have used the NHS the other way during a visit to the UK.  Our baby was sick, the doctor was Polish which was kind of interesting.  Upshot was no-one asked a thing about documentation.  It was so long ago, our kid is now a tall teenager!

Of course, I understand the temptation. If you have a UK EHIC, it's issued for 5 years. And if you keep a UK address, it's easy to renew. And Hungary has refused you. So what does one do?

Even if it's not actually used for healthcare, it can be used to "prove health insurance" in PR applications so long as it's valid date wise.

I'm British, but I live outside the UK, and have done so for many years. I am an EU legal resident. I have a full NI record. But I am not, according to the rules, entitled to either use my UK EHIC, or pop back to the UK for free NHS hospital treatment. But, I agree, maybe I'd get away with the former when I flash my UK EHIC... and the latter might be especially tempting as I'd probably get away with it if I flash my UK passport.

In an emergency, the EHIC would be useful as a backup but here,  some kind of insurance might be useful.  Medics charge individuals for everything routine like blood tests so insurance might cover that.  Others here know that the private health insurance issued to those applying for PR is not very effective. 

The S1 is different. That specifically covers healthcare outside the UK, and is for non-resident UK pensioners. These work across the EU, so I'm sure Hungary will be happy with yours. But that's a few years away.

The S1 should be fairly automatic and I will receive mine in  2026. It's not that far away unfortunately.

Until then our options, officially, are a private health insurance policy, or sorting out our social security contributions/membership of local healthcare system.

Anecdotal evidence here is that individual expat non-company private healthcare insurance doesn't deliver here.  It satisfies the PR process but doesn't really pay out.   SS is a better way to go. 

- @gwynj

The EHIC was only meant to be used for travelling, it was never meant to use as a replacement for health insurance in the country. 

- @SimCityAT

Maybe HU let's you top up too? If he has 9 years, he just needs to contribute 6. Probably won't be much of a pension anyway, but every little helps. :-)

I'm not sure what the "HU citizen" question is for (but maybe it's just a shortcut, he assumes all citizens get free treatment, which is a common doctor assumption in the UK too), but I would not simply answer "no". I would clarify that I am a permanent resident (and I'd imagine you are by now). In theory, a HU PR has to be treated identically to a HU citizen in every respect except the right to vote.

- @gwynj

You're still not getting my point as to the legality of your EHIC (or your UK NHS) usage. It's a bit arcane, maybe, but it's a true thing. Maybe it doesn't matter, especially as you seem to have gotten away with it, no problem. You seem to be assuming that if you're British, and you have a UK EHIC card, that you're entitled to get medical treatment anywhere in the UK and EU (if EHIC, the world if GHIC) on Boris' tab. This is not actually the test (it's a while since I read it, but I believe it's to do with being "ordinarily resident" in the UK, and this can apply to both Brits and foreigners - and generally doesn't apply if we've been living elsewhere for the last few years).

I assume you are addressing me - use the quote button.

You didn't read what i said nor do you know the circumstances.  I never said I used an EHIC card when I was wasn't entitled to use it.

I'm a bit more risk-averse perhaps, so if the situation arises that I do actually need some treatment, that would not be a good time for me to find out that they do have some way of deciding that they shouldn't accept mine. :-)

You are right that the EU directives say that an EHIC should satisfy the health insurance requirement for immigration. But not all countries agree. Bulgaria accepted mine. Spain didn't... on the very logical basis that as soon as they admitted me, I would be a Spanish resident, and hence the UK EHIC should not be used/accepted.

You also, I think, are perhaps a bit confused about PR, Permanent Resident, which in EU-speak is a "long term" resident.

I don't think I am confused at all.  PR means permanent resident in HU.  It doesn't give me any rights in say, Austria.  Now the UK is out of the EU, we're all the same as 3CN (third country nationals) and  from what I read we need a EU Blue Card to work outside of HU in another EU country.   These are only available post-5years PR. One of Boris's unintended consequences.

They don't (as far as I know) issue 5 years PRs. They issue the temporary (initial) residence card for 5 years (to EU citizens, to non-EU citizens usually 1 or 2 years). Then, at 5 years, when you renew you get the long-term residence permit which is issued for 10 years. The 10 year card is the PR. The 5 years card is a residence card, but not a permanent/long term one. The 5 year card grants you local country rights, the 10 year cards grants you EU-wide rights.

Here in HU, there are only 5 year PR cards in the first instance for Brexit folk.  The renewal after 5 years means issuance of a 10-year card but current information is that it needs to be applied for.  It does not renew automatically.  I'm looking at  my PR card and it's only valid until 2027 as I received it this year. 

Before I had an EEA registration card (this is what they issued to British citizens, post Brexit and these expired 31 December 2021).     These EEA cards were unrecognised by border cards despite them being valid in HU.  Since they have now expired, PR cards were issued as per the 3CN route but it does say Article 50 on it.

It's a screw up in itself as it takes no account of previous time in Hungary and will therefore affect any attempt at naturalisation which requires one to have had a residence permit for I think 5 years  (don't remember exactly but it's not that long).   

WIth the 5 years card they might discriminate on the social security (if you're unemployed / not working / studying / retired... but should be OK if you're employed or self-employed). With the 10 years card they shouldn't discriminate at all.

The PR is valid as a travel document instead of your passport within the EU. Your temporary card isn't, so if you flash that at immigration they will ask for your passport.

That's definitely not how it works. 

The HU system is that you have an RP card and you need afterwards a national ID card separately issued. It says  on the ID card that it's an ID card issued to foreigners.  It says quite clearly on the back of my  ID card in very big letters that it's not valid for travel.   I should say that EU ID cards are no longer valid for travel to the UK.  A passport is required.   

I haven't travelled through a Schengen or HU border guard check using the RP or ID card but I suspect they'll ask for both when I come back into HU.   We went to Austria by car and nobody checked on passports, only COVID paperwork.  Our car is HU registered.

Maybe you're right that an Article 50 PR is more restricted than a regular PR, but I have not found anything that says this.

There are private medical policies designed only to satisfy immigration (these are for emergency treatment/repatriation). So they do pay out, but only in very narrow circumstances. These are not true health insurance policies to cover you for all/most medical situations. The former is very cheap (say 100 euros or less), while the latter tends to be quite expensive (say, 500 euros up to thousands of euros, depending on your age, pre-existing conditions, and country issued). Travel insurance is yet another type of medical cover, which has similar cover to the cheap immigration option, but obviously isn't acceptable to immigration as it runs out quickly (usually has maximum of 60 or 90 days per trip).

I used to travel extensively pre-pandemic and insurance has always  been a problem here and it has got worse post-Brexit.  Some insurance companies here have a kind of "fake" policy heavily caveated that can be used with immigration. Payout is minimal.    More interestingly, long term all year travel insurance is  something that is hard to find here. 

Longest I've seen from the UK is 120 days.   There are backpacker policies available out of the UK but usually involves younger people who are unlikely to die of illness.   Upper limit on age is another issue.

Most of the above can be verified in the relevant EU Directives.

DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC definitely applies to you as the non-EU family member of an EU citizen:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content … mp;from=EN

If you've been in Hungary more than 5 years (and got the PR), DIRECTIVE 2003/109/EC should apply:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content … mp;from=en

Clock restarted with issuance of PR.  Previous time pre-Brexit in Hungary  looks like it was lost.  As EU citizens we didn't need PR cards, just registration. None of that is carried over to PR.   It's another Boris Brexit bonus.

- @gwynj

EU COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 2003/109/EC

"concerning the status of third-country nationals who are long-term residents"

"The integration of third-country nationals who are long-term residents in the Member States is a key element in promoting economic and social cohesion, a fundamental objective of the Community stated in the Treaty."

"Member States shall grant long-term resident status to third-country nationals who have resided legally and continuously within its territory for five years immediately prior to the submission of the relevant application."

"The status as long-term resident shall be permanent, subject to Article 9."

"Member States shall issue a long-term resident's EC residence permit to long-term residents. The permit shall be valid at least for five years; it shall, upon application if required, be automatically renewable on expiry."

"In order to constitute a genuine instrument for the integration of long-term residents into society in which they live, long-term residents should enjoy equality of treatment with citizens of the Member State in a wide range of economic and social matters, under the relevant conditions defined by this Directive."

"Long-term residents should enjoy reinforced protection against expulsion. This protection is based on the criteria determined by the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights. In order to ensure protection against expulsion Member States should provide for effective legal redress."

"To avoid rendering the right of residence nugatory, long-term residents should enjoy in the second Member State the same treatment, under the conditions defined by this Directive, they enjoy in the Member State in which they acquired the status."

- @gwynj

EU COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 2003/109/EC

"concerning the status of third-country nationals who are long-term residents"

"The integration of third-country nationals who are long-term residents in the Member States is a key element in promoting economic and social cohesion, a fundamental objective of the Community stated in the Treaty."

"Member States shall grant long-term resident status to third-country nationals who have resided legally and continuously within its territory for five years immediately prior to the submission of the relevant application."

"The status as long-term resident shall be permanent, subject to Article 9."

"Member States shall issue a long-term resident's EC residence permit to long-term residents. The permit shall be valid at least for five years; it shall, upon application if required, be automatically renewable on expiry."

"In order to constitute a genuine instrument for the integration of long-term residents into society in which they live, long-term residents should enjoy equality of treatment with citizens of the Member State in a wide range of economic and social matters, under the relevant conditions defined by this Directive."

"Long-term residents should enjoy reinforced protection against expulsion. This protection is based on the criteria determined by the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights. In order to ensure protection against expulsion Member States should provide for effective legal redress."

"To avoid rendering the right of residence nugatory, long-term residents should enjoy in the second Member State the same treatment, under the conditions defined by this Directive, they enjoy in the Member State in which they acquired the status."

- @gwynj

My thinking is that this does not apply to working rights.  It might allow freedom of movement and possibly the right of residence but would not allow working rights as they were pre-Brexit.   I see that it's dated 2003.  There will be superseding information in the WA (Withdrawal Agreement).

- @fluffy2560

For UK passport holders, I'm reasonably certain that it doesn't allow freedom of movement and working past where you were registered on the date Brexit came into being.  There have been many examples where, for example, people (Brit passport holders) who worked the seasonal jobs could not travel from their waitressing job in Spain, to their similar job in Germany.  Maybe this is an issue specific to how those 2 countries have interpreted the Brexit agreement.

To be honest, it doesn't affect me and I'm done with travelling; if the country of destination makes it too hard, I just won't go and couldn't give a flying f**k tbh; my point is that I'm not the only one and it seems like the EU are cutting off their nose to spite their face.  I can understand why some may take the opposite view.

All my kids (and more recently my grandson) are dual nationals by birth, so have both a valid UK and EU (NL) passports; they all now reside in the UK, but have the right to live and work anywhere in the EU - it is all rather bizarre and seems a lot more hassle to try and administer than the political point-scoring they seem to see as being their job.

- @Cynic