Brazilian Nationality vs.Permanent Residency

01/23/23 What are the Pros and Cons of Permanent Residency vs. Brazilian Citizenship.

Roddie In Retirement🕵🏽.
-@Roddie Simmons

Hi, Roddie, That's a great question. The most important thing to understand about Permanent Residency in Brazil is that there are really no downsides. Unlike a lot of countries (the United States, for example) there's absolutely no pressure from the government for a Permanent Resident to become a citizen. You have all the rights of a citizen, except voting, holding office, obtaining a Brazilian passport, or competing for Civil Service jobs.  It doesn't make any difference to your tax status. As long as you're not out of the country for more than two years at a time, you can remain a Permanent Resident forever. I have a dear friend who founded and runs the largest NGO providing therapeutic services to handicapped children and adolescents in a northeastern state. Her husband and kids are Brazilian.  Her services to Brazil through her work are such that, if she wanted to, she could become a citizen immediately without meeting any qualifications under the "Special Naturalization" provision of the law -- all it would take is a word in the ear of the governor, and it would happen. But she can't be bothered, and she's starting her 50th year as a Permanent Resident.

The main advantages of citizenship are that you can vote (if you're under 70, you're required to vote), you can qualify for Civil Service jobs, and you can't be extradited, except to your home country or for drug trafficking. If you're a male under 40 you're technically liable for compulsory military service, but you will almost certainly be excused. You can maintain your previous citizenship, and have two passports. You have the protection of Brazilian diplomatic personnel abroad, except against any country of which you are also a citizen.

The hurdles, aside from just getting through the residence period between obtaining your CRNM and being able to apply, are providing a new set of the same documents that you needed to get your Permanent Residency, with Sworn Translations and apostilles, an unannounced home visit by the Polícia Federal to verify your residence, and the CelpeBras exam, if your native language is not Portuguese. The exam is only given twice a year, it's either a full day or two half days, a candidate needs to get at least a grade of "Intermediate" on it, and the final grade is the LOWER of the grades on the written and oral portions. I estimate that to achieve that grade, a candidate needs to be able to read, write, speak, and understand Portuguese, including writing essays in formal Portuguese, at about the level of a native Brazilian graduate of a good private high school. The year I took it, a little over 50% of the approximately 10,000 candidates worldwide passed it.

The government neither encourages nor discourages naturalization, but relatively few Permanent Residents care to go to the effort.

@abthree Thank you. I just left the PF in Lapa after being granted a residency permit and the supervisor said that I am eligible for naturalization after one year. But this clears up, for me as to the why. Besides, the way my Portuguese is going, it’s going to take me more than a year to get up to the level of proficiency in the language as you describe to pass the test.

01/23/23 @duzzimenino.  You're welcome! 👍🏻

If you'd like to try your hand at the test for free, you can download the previous tests here:

https://www.ufrgs.br/acervocelpebras/acervo/

The blank form to write each essay is included in the test, so if you use that and time yourself on each one, you'll get a feel for what the experience is like.

Brazil has a mutual agreement with the US where you can maintain both citizenships. 

The only benefit derived from Brazilian Citizenship  other than Government employment, would be the right to vote. 

You can be here for years, with your "green card" equivalent.   The difference is the document you bear.

Health Care Benefits are the same once you qualify for the SUS Card. 

I'm living in Brazil from 3 year's, married and I'm working here. but almost a year we are separate not yet divorce in the documents. After the divorce i can use my permanent residence card ( RNM ) or not. If I can use my permanent residence card then when I can apply for naturalization Passport. After the divorce in documents that I can marry with a foreigner in Brazil.

01/23/23 @janaan1.  Do you and your Brazilian wife have any children?

We don't have any children

01/23/23 @Janaan1. Okay, here's the situation:

Yes, after you get divorced, you can continue to benefit from your CRNM, at least for a while. However, if your divorce is unfriendly and your wife decides to report you to the Federal Police, the result will probably be an investigation that can conclude that the grounds for granting you permanent residency no longer exist, and you may be instructed to leave Brazil.

Even if your wife is friendly and doesn't report you, somebody else may, with the same result.

If you try to marry a foreigner and then to bring her to Brazil, that will immediately bring your permanent residency into question, because it's based on being married to a Brazilian, and now you would be trying to marry somebody else.

The ideal, of course, would be for you and your wife to reconcile. If that's impossible, you need an attorney of your own to review your options and plan some protection before you endanger your ability to stay here.

If I don't marry in Brazil and not go for divorce in documents. But we already separate and I can apply for a naturalization or not.

01/23/23 If I don't marry in Brazil and not go for divorce in documents. But we already separate and I can apply for a naturalization or not.
-@Janaan1

Yes, you can still apply for naturalization.  Keep in mind that on your petition for naturalization, you're going to have to state, under oath, your marital status, whether or not you have a Brazilian spouse, and the name of that person.  These statements will be checked during the home visit by the Federal Police if your petition passes its initial review.

In order to be accepted for review, your application will  have to include all the documents required by the Federal Police, including  the certificate proving that you passed CelpeBras.

I already have all the documents

01/23/23 I already have all the documents
-@Janaan1

Then you might as well give it a try.  Best of luck to you.

Thanks, but like you told me before they gonna visit a house and I told you that I'm not living with her and we are separate and living in different cities. This gonna be a problem.

01/23/23 @janaan1.  That's why I suggested above talking to an attorney.   I suspect that before all this is through, you're going to need one. 

Thanks

@abthree You always seem to have the best answers!

I am fine with the Permanent  Residency.

My wife really thought ahead. Our daughter is 21. Born in the U.S. When she was 5 MONTHS old, barley able to talk my wife brought her to Brazil, taught her Portuguese as her First language and arranged for her to be a Brazilian citizen with dual passports.

I know, what was I doing while all this was happening. I think there was a Suprt Bowl going on. Big New England fan back then. Now that I live here with my wife and my Brazilian second mother I am trying to catch up.

Roddie in Retirement. 🕵🏽

Let me guess..

Roddie Simmons

My wife really thought ahead. Our daughter is 21. Born in the U.S. When she was 5 MONTHS old, barley able to talk my wife brought her to Brazil, taught her Portuguese as her First language and arranged for her to be a Brazilian citizen with dual passports

You probably were settled in East Providence, or Pawtucket, or Warwick, or Warren . Just an educated guess.

Brazilians were all clustered around East Providence, close to Warren Avenue.

Definetively not South Providence, Not Silver Lake, Not OIlveyville Sq. Maybe, maybe Cranston ( or Cranstah)

@sprealestatebroker.

Not Bad! It was the first one and since I am throwing all privacy out the window and we already sold the house, we were close to Waterman Ave., though I have seen some Brazilian restaurants and shops on Warren.

Roddie in Retirement🕵🏽

aka Roddie no longer in R.I.

@sprealestatebroker

Bonus Points: The stuff I left behind temporarily is in storage in Cranston.

Roddie in Retirement🕵🏽

@sprealestatebroker.
Not Bad! It was the first one and since I am throwing all privacy out the window and we already sold the house, we were close to Waterman Ave., though I have seen some Brazilian restaurants and shops on Warren.

Roddie in Retirement🕵🏽

aka Roddie no longer in R.I.
-@Roddie Simmons

Waterman Avenue.  I would've guessed, given some time.  It's a nice and quaint location,, a  mix of a commercial strip with classic old cottages with lawns off the main drag.   Close to Tasca's Dealerships. If not mistaken, that corridor went all the way up to Newport Avenue, correct me if wrong, connecting Seekonk towards Pawtucket.  Waterman Avenue was a quieter strip, compared to Seekonk Avenue, Pawtucket Ave, and Newport Avenue.

Cranston

I used to shop my gear  between the Goifer's Warehouse in Cranston and another place in Easton,MA.  The Cranston one was off Pontiac Avenue, probably close to your storage place. Closer to the New Tasca Ford's Lot.  I used to hunt for bargains, second hand clubs, closeouts on apparel.

The extension from Elmwood Avenue, then Reservoir Avenue, has  an excellent dining hall, Twin Oaks.  If you were a self calling worthy of your salt  goombah in RI, you had to take your grandma to dine there.  Best veal around and at the right tables, soothing sights of the pond surrounded by threes.   When the place was busy, you had to slip a $20 to the Maitre to get a decent table.  Went there a couple times. Very non descript place. Tourists went to Federal Hill.

Actually the food places in Cranston were a lot better on the Italian fare, than Providence.

My tool truck route  slightly touched Cranston @ Reservoir Avenue. I had South Providence and Johnston.  On Reservoir Ave I had three dim witted brothers who seldom bought from me, all cheapskates.

My route covered Johnston around Saint Rocco ( the Italian dame behind the counter at Mangiarello's Deli Stand, i had a crush on her. Tall, chin up,, scarf wrapped around here hair, bossy, dark hair, big round eyes ).  From Rt 6  around Atwood Avenue and off roads up to the Cranston Line.

South Providence I had Silver Spring, Broad Street ( Dominicans called it LA BROA,  Buddy Cianci patronized them and gave them a lot of public works , and got approvied a lot of small business loans there after Paolino left ) , the Armory,  Elmwood Avenuel, Manton Avenue, Potters Avenue.  Basically all of "Little Santo Domingo ( plus my share of Puerto Ricans, Guatemalans, Colombians ).   All the characters I dealt with, I miss them. 

The back road towards Hartford, I cruised many times through those rolling hill, and it was as scenery as you could ask for.

@sprealestatebroker
Bonus Points: The stuff I left behind temporarily is in storage in Cranston.

Roddie in Retirement🕵🏽
-@Roddie Simmons

Probably either off Pontiac Avenue , or by the Penitentiary.

Bonus back.  That chain of Adult Stores in MA and RI, Amazing, headquarters was a large mansion at the middle of  Park Ave. Inside, most of the clerks on the bullpen were girls. Regular 9-5 types, all busy bees.   i met once with the soon to be retired Controller, Mr. Turcotte. A nice amiable man.  i was pitching local phone service then with a CLEC.

My amazement is how those stores were so well run.  You went in them, not that creepy at all !!! .  Spacious floor size locations, on industrial zoned areas, non descript ample parking out back, lots of merchandise, and even women shopped there undisturbed.  When i see what they do here in Sao Paulo ( they call it, inconspicuously Sex Stores, duh ! all tight and poor on inventory ).

If I am not wrong, outside CA, they were then traiblazers. 

@Janaan1 I am alao a Pakistani living in Brazil please contact

@sprealestatebroker That is TMI for me, but I applaud your skills.

My time in RI was not even connected to Brazil. My father built our house and my natural mother was a PHD from Brown University, now with a Fellowship in her name. It wasn’t until she passed away when I was 5 that our Brazilian mother came into the family. My father built the house there because the family were constructors that built church’s for the African American community.

You still got the location right.

Roddie in Retirement🕵🏽

@sprealestatebroker That is TMI for me, but I applaud your skills.
My time in RI was not even connected to Brazil. My father built our house and my natural mother was a PHD from Brown University, now with a Fellowship in her name. It wasn’t until she passed away when I was 5 that our Brazilian mother came into the family. My father built the house there because the family were constructors that built church’s for the African American community.

You still got the location right.

Roddie in Retirement🕵🏽
-@Roddie Simmons

PHD from Brown University  - Cool. My Thermodynamics Class Professor had a PhD there.I am an Umass Darmouth Alma Matter.

Fellowship. - Means not only she had tenure there, she was also a donor..  Wicked cool.   Ivy League.  That buys good will under your Brethen for life.

the family were constructors that built church’s for the African American community.  Looks like this one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congdon_S … ist_Church

Or this one.

https://ebenezerbcprovidence.org/about-us/

Nice Architectural details.

My father built the house there

As opposed to bought a house there.   That's how it used to be.  People then did not bought properties, other than land. They built their homes. Spec houses, as you call them these days.  Even as recent as 30 years ago, most Azorean  Portuguese who went into the construction trade avoided buying those pre-fabs.  They built from the ground up. 

I am just a poor working stiff born in Brazil, with US citizenship, who lived in a Porugee enclave, New Bedford. 

Nice to meet ya.

Good Choices. Familiar with both.

01/23/23 @Janaan1. Okay, here's the situation:
Yes, after you get divorced, you can continue to benefit from your CRNM, at least for a while. However, if your divorce is unfriendly and your wife decides to report you to the Federal Police, the result will probably be an investigation that can conclude that the grounds for granting you permanent residency no longer exist, and you may be instructed to leave Brazil.

Even if your wife is friendly and doesn't report you, somebody else may, with the same result.

If you try to marry a foreigner and then to bring her to Brazil, that will immediately bring your permanent residency into question, because it's based on being married to a Brazilian, and now you would be trying to marry somebody else.

The ideal, of course, would be for you and your wife to reconcile. If that's impossible, you need an attorney of your own to review your options and plan some protection before you endanger your ability to stay here.
-@abthree

What he says is correct.  In so many ways, it mirror the Green Card Holder status in the US. 

Legally,  in the US, you only at a risk of deportation, as a Green Card holder, in the event of a serious felony.  And the deportation takes place after you served your penalty. In some cases, they'd rather deport you first. 

In  the US, you will not be deported, after granted a Green Card holder status, just because your ex-wife decides to report you to the INS.  |I am bound to believe that being reported to the Federal Police, giving it grounds for being deported, would have to be in committing of any serious criminal offense. But what do I know, anyhow?

02/06/23  I am bound to believe that being reported to the Federal Police, giving it grounds for being deported, would have to be in committing of any serious criminal offense. But what do I know, anyhow?
-@sprealestatebroker

Pre-World Cup and pre-pandemic, I have no doubt that you were right:  the Federal Police seemed much more likely to let sleeping dogs lie, and not to go after someone unless there were a serious (i.e., non-immigration) offense, or unless their noses were really rubbed in it and they felt forced to act.

Now, I'm not so sure.  Recently, they seem to be getting more serious about immigration violations.  It's all anecdotal and hard to track down, but the anecdotes all seem to point in the direction of tighter enforcement.  Besides, it's all computerized now, so when a request is submitted to admit a foreign spouse based on  Reunião Familiar, and the Chamante's status pops up as "resident foreigner benefiting from Reunião Familar because of marriage to a Brazilian" that's bound to raise some serious questions in the PF office.