Problems with Amt for Migration (Authority for Migration)

@WilliamNZ

I have no longer many dealings with the Amt; I just have to get my card renewed when my passport expires and I get a new one so can't say much about your problem, but I have been following Andreas Moser's blog for quite a while; apart from writing an entertaining blog on all sorts of subjects, he gives advice on immigration matters in Germany - not for free, but you get what you pay for; it may be worth having a look at his website. Google something like Andreas Moser blog English. He maintains his website in German as well and the standard of the language in both is excellent. HTH 

Complicated problem. It is true that personal attitudes come into play in making many decisions by Germany authorities rather than strictly just the laws and rules. One can be rejected for residency for example by one worker but could be approved by another based on the same data. The idea of going over a worker’s head to the boss is usually only likely to bring anything if it is a very clear violation of the rules. Otherwise, such workers have the power to assess and decide without having every decision questioned and reviewed.

My personal experience was that many civil servants make a decision based on a standard response. But there are often exceptions to rules that they are either unaware of or just don’t want to be bothered with. Best to be equipped with being informed of such rules that might counter their judgments. Such workers are very overworked and simply give standard decisions and don’t look for the possible exceptions unless they are clearly pointed out

But how does at least asking to talk to someone higher up worsen ones chances when one is being rejected anyway? It would seem that one has nothing to lose and potentially everything to gain. Very important is to keep a cool head and not make threats or scream about being mistreated. Stay factual and that you feel your case is not being properly evaluated. Neither an extreme of begging or to act threatening is going to get one anywhere and could definitely hurt ones chances. This is why lawyers are usually good for.

What some people have done is to change residence (if they have the possibility) and apply in another city, at least potentially giving them a new chance. But if one does have a strong case, if a lawyer with experience in such matters can get it through then one has little to no chance – at that particular office or municipality anyway.

As Tom wrote above, foreigner offices in Germany are often understaffed, overworked ad difficult to deal with. Furthermore, the regulations are so complex that differing interpretations are possible in many cases.

Apart from trying to change the officer's opinion (difficult!), contacting his/her superior (difficult!) or moving to a city with an easier to deal with office (difficult!), there is a way to appeal against any decision officials make - get the decision in writing and the letter must indicate how and where to appeal!

An appeal might take many months to conclude and may result in the officer's decision being reconfrmed (which is then final), but this is the only method you have.

@WilliamNZ

Case workers don´t usually drag out cases for the fun of it - that generates way too much work.

It´s not quite clear what is actually going on.

Have you received a decision, yet?

Have you made an application outside immigration rules?

Is the case worker asking you for documents you can´t provide?

Is the case worker stating any reasons (missing documents, you not meeting requirements for what you are applying for, etc.) why your application has not, yet been processed, if that is the case?

If you have received a decision (Bescheid) and you think the case worker made a mistake, have you appealed within 28 days of receiving the decision, in writing or "mündlich zur Niederschrift" (you go there, tell him you want to appeal, the poor sod then has to write everything down for you, read it back to you and if you agree with what he has written, you sign the appeal in front of him)?

@TominStuttgart Thank you for your kind response. I've understood your recommendation. And I have today asked for the contact details of the case worker's boss. Surprisingly, I was immediately given the information. And I have spoke to the manager. Sadly, nothing changed for the befits of my case.   

I appreciate your time for sending your response!!!!!

@beppi Thank you Beppi. Your reply is aligned with Tom's feedback, which makes total sense.

Amt for Migration will send me their official decision, and they told me that I can either accept it or legally go against it.

...My case is about the loss of German Citizenship.

My issue now is not knowing a way forward:

Lawyer is telling me that there is a way. While, Amt for Migration insists that there is no way. However, Amt for Migration sounds very convincing. Hiring a lawyer seems to be a waste of money.

But being a human being - my hope isn't dead completely. Voice in my head is whispering "What if the lawyer is right"....

I am not expecting anyone to help with my decision now, I'm just sharing...

@ALKB Thank you. You are right... As per my previous responses to Tom and Beppi, I will receive a written letter from the Amt for Migration. Cheers

...My case is about the loss of German Citizenship.

There is only a very limited list of circumstances, under which someone can lose a German citizenship (see https://southafrica.diplo.de/sa-de/sa-r … #content_0), and most of them are so obscure as to be irrelevant.

But two are more common:

• You acquired (by application, not by birth) a non-EU citizenship, without first getting an exemptional permission to keep the  the German one. In that case, as far as I know, you are probably out of luck - but a lawyer (ONLY an experienced immigation lawyer!) could tell you if there is any chance left. (The foreigner office won't tell you!)
• You served in a foreign army. Here, too, you are probably out of luck - unless it was a compulsory military service based on having dual citizenship (and being allowed so by German rules).

@beppi

Thanks again Beppi. As you have guessed, it is #1 of common issues: my problems are due to becoming a citizen of Canada.

There is a citizenship reform coming, which will provision for not penalizing Germans, when they obtain foreign citizenship. But, according  to the Amt for Migration, it will only cover new cases, not the cases in the past.

@WilliamNZ Correct, so it will not apply to you. I also guess you don't fall into any other loophole - but ask a lawyer to be sure!

I agree with Beppi's assessment. Acquiring another non-EU citizenship means giving up German unless a specific exemption is approved before. The rules on this are clear; it's not a case of a worker not properly doing their job.

That one could now "undo" this retroactively under the new rules is simply not how things work. The laws at the time are relevant. And if it were allowed, then there would be a flood of hundreds of thousands if not millions of peoples wanting their German citizenship back. I would honestly question on what possible basis a lawyer would claim otherwise. Where is the legal argument? But since the new rules due to be implemented in 2024, were even suggested, I have recommend people to wait with taking another non-EU citizenship, or becoming German and having to renounce their previous citizenship to do so.

There are 2 exceptions to the general rule that did happen. German citizens persecuted by the Nazis (and their direct decedents) that fled and lost their citizenship have been given a pathway to have it restored. There were also former rules that German citizenship was actually passed on by the father and not the mother. A German citizen mother who gave birth to a child in the USA for example did not pass on citizenship if the father was not German. Having US citizenship for such a child was not a factor in this case as it is through birthright and not naturalization. Obviously such a thing was later seen to be sexist and in some cases the passing on the German citizenship retroactively approved.

But when one voluntarily naturalizes in a non-EU country it is neither through repression nor a matter of sexism. There is no theoretical basis to give back citizenship to people who basically chose to lose it. If a lawyer thinks these mentioned situations set a logical precedent then I would question his arguments if not his credibility.

But if one would now live long term in Germany they would have the option to eventually naturalize as German (again) like any other foreigner. But of course it might be difficult to manage the initial immigration.

    @beppi
Thanks again Beppi. As you have guessed, it is #1 of common issues: my problems are due to becoming a citizen of Canada.
There is a citizenship reform coming, which will provision for not penalizing Germans, when they obtain foreign citizenship. But, according  to the Amt for Migration, it will only cover new cases, not the cases in the past.
   

    -@WilliamNZ

Did you naturalize as Canadian before or after the 01.01.2000?

In any case, have you contacted the Bundesverwaltungsamt at all?

https://www.germany.info/us-de/service/ … er/1216660

@ALKB

OK, I didn't want to write everything about my case, but I will better explain it to avoid confusion and maybe it will help others....

I became Canadian in 2003....

In Germany, I was recognized as a "citizen persecuted" in 1993. I received a Spätaussiedlerbescheinigung (§ 15 BVFG) , in English it is somewhat like late repatriate certificate, which entitles to getting a German Citizenship automatically. On that basis, I have been given German Passport in 1995.  Here is a reference that supports this information on the website of [Bundesamt für Migration und Flüchtlingen] (it is in German):

"Anerkennung

Mit der Anerkennung als Spätaussiedlerin oder Spätaussiedler erhalten Sie automatisch die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit. Maßgeblich in dem vom Bundesverwaltungsamt durchgeführten Aufnahme- und Bescheinigungsverfahren ist Ihre Nachkommenschaft zu Deutschen. Die gesetzliche Grundlage für die Aufnahme von Spätaussiedlern ist das Bundesvertriebenengesetz (BVFG). Bis Ende 1992 geborene Personen werden als Spätaussiedler anerkannt."

https://www.bamf.de/DE/Themen/Migration … -node.html

Migration lawyer told me that the loss of my German citizenship by becoming Canadian in 2003 is correct. However, on the basis of the above, I should immediately get my German citizenship back. That is supposed to be the loophole in my case.... But the Amt for Migration is telling me "No", they don't see it that way.

Well, that is a VERY specific and rare case, which nobody here is likely to know (and neither the immigration officers). Looks like you'd have to find a very good lawyer and sue. And patience - these cases can drag on for years ...

@WilliamNZ

Well, if yu read through the link I posted, you can see that naturalizing after 01.01.2000 is good news. I think that´s more important than being a Spätaussiedler.

The lawyer will of course know more about this than I, but I can´t see how receiving German citizenship based on being the descendent of German settlers who left Germany a couple of hundred years ago is a deal that can be repeated several times during one´s lifetime.

Once you received your automatic German nationality, you were on equal standing with any other German citizen whose ancestors didn´t leave the territory and who also lost their citizenship when applying for another, non-EU (and not that long ago, even EU) citizenship.

Can you show strong and ongoing ties to Germany? Like parents/other family here? Did you keep visiting?

@ALKB

Thank you for your insights!!!

Yes, I have strong connection to Germany, my mother and sister live here. I came mostly to help my elderly mother, she didn't want to move to New Zealand....

@ALKB

You got it completely wrong about the reasons for "early German settlers" repatriation and compensation.

It isn't because we were ethnic Germans at all.

My ancestors have lived for over 180 years abroad maintaining German language and culture, but they had nothing to do with Germany any longer. When WWII broke out, Russians arrested millions of ethnic Germans, deprived them of everything they had, separated families husbands from wives, packed people in the cuttle trains like sardines (so that the weakest die during the transport) , and sent them all to various concentration camps in Siberia and Kazakhstan. These people had nothing to do with the war or Germany. Millions have died in suffering. Due to malnutrition, kids were born with many health issues. My mother was born in a concentration camp. Ethnic Germans were mistreated for decades in the ex Ussr...

After the war, they were kept captive until the early 1960s. Even later in 1960, these ethnic Germans were not allowed to return to their homes, no compensation was given, they were still unfairly labeled as "enemies of the state". Germany has recognised the tragedies and atrocities that my people have suffered as the fault of Nazis in Germany. These people were offered to "return" to Germany as if it had been their home land.

There is a big difference between your incorrect statement "can´t see how receiving German citizenship based on being the descendent of German settlers who left Germany a couple of hundred years ago" and the reality of what the real reasons for that are.

Time line doesn't support your case as presented. I don't think it matters how you became German. You still became Canadian in 2003 and thus gave up German citizenship. How can it matter if you were born German, or later recognized in such a situation in the 1990's? The loss of German citizenship by naturalizing in a non-EU country like Canada is for ALL Germans regardless of how and when their citizenship was recognized; not just say for ones who might have obtained it by naturalization. Being a "Spätaussiedler" is not an exemption, it just explains one's pathway to having gotten German citizenship before you gave it up. But if you had Canadian citizenship and afterwards had gone through the process for recognition of German citizenship as a "Spätaussiedler" then it might just have been possible to retain Canadian. Things were done in the wrong order.

    @ALKB
You got it completely wrong about the reasons for "early German settlers" repatriation and compensation.
It isn't because we were ethnic Germans at all.
My ancestors have lived for over 180 years abroad maintaining German language and culture, but they had nothing to do with Germany any longer. When WWII broke out, Russians arrested millions of ethnic Germans, deprived them of everything they had, separated families husbands from wives, packed people in the cuttle trains like sardines (so that the weakest die during the transport) , and sent them all to various concentration camps in Siberia and Kazakhstan. These people had nothing to do with the war or Germany. Millions have died in suffering. Due to malnutrition, kids were born with many health issues. My mother was born in a concentration camp. Ethnic Germans were mistreated for decades in the ex Ussr...
After the war, they were kept captive until the early 1960s. Even later in 1960, these ethnic Germans were not allowed to return to their homes, no compensation was given, they were still unfairly labeled as "enemies of the state". Germany has recognised the tragedies and atrocities that my people have suffered as the fault of Nazis in Germany. These people were offered to "return" to Germany as if it had been their home land.

There is a big difference between your incorrect statement "can´t see how receiving German citizenship based on being the descendent of German settlers who left Germany a couple of hundred years ago" and the reality of what the real reasons for that are.
   

    -@WilliamNZ

I am aware of the history. I do not mean to play down the suffering of Germans in Ukraine, Volga Germans, Danube Swabians, etc.

I did not mean to say that you don´t deserve German nationailty. I personally hope you succeed.

What I mean is, you received German nationality. Currently and historically, a German national automatically loses German nationality when naturalizing as another (at the moment non-EU) nationality unless they apply for a Beibehaltungsgenehmigung beforehand.

I would like to see legislation - and maybe your lawyer can show you, I´d be very interested - that states that one can give up (unknowingly in your case) the German nationality that was already in place and repeat the process because of the way German nationality was acquired in the first place. It might well be possible but it´s an extremely specific case that I somewhat doubt has been foreseen by lawmakers.

I still think the Bundesverwaltungsamt might be the place to enquire about this.

@ALKB

I will let you know about the outcomes.