Naturalization granted, now I am in a bind. Advice?

Just shooting from the hip here. If you apply for your passport online, you would get a protocol. If you left Brazil on your Canadian passport leaving shouldn’t be a problem. When you return if you showed them your resident card and the protocol one would hope that they shouldn’t give you any problems. As I said, this is a guess. I am sure others will chime in. I believe it is a requirement when you enter Brazil to show your Brazilian documents. However, when you leave Brazil, you can use your other country documents.

07/24/24 @jonesio. Congratulations on your naturalization!  I think that you should be ok with your CIE this time.  You're a legal resident of Brazil, and your becoming a citizen enhances that, it doesn't cancel it.  You're not able to obtain Brazilian travel documents through no fault of your own, but you have valid travel documents from your other country of citizenship, and proof of your legal residency in Brazil.

As the DOU states, the first step to getting your documents is to obtain your Título de Eleitor from the Justiça Eleitoral.  They're much more efficient than the other agencies that you're dealing with, and I would recommend going ahead and doing that.  That will be one less thing you have to do on your return, and in the very unlikely event that you're questioned on your return, it's proof that you've started the documentation process.  However, I do not expect you to be questioned.  Enjoy your trip!

   
As the DOU states, the first step to getting your documents is to obtain your Título de Eleitor from the Justiça Eleitoral.  They're much more efficient than the other agencies that you're dealing with, and I would recommend going ahead and doing that.
   

    -@abthree

Thanks for your input. I've just discovered that getting my título de eleitor is not going be easy, and perhaps   impossible, until this year's elections are over. The following note appears where one would normally begin the process on the TSE site:

"O atendimento remoto via Título Net está bloqueado entre os dias 09/05/2024 e 04/11/2024, conforme prevê a norma eleitoral vigente.

ATENÇÃO: Conforme deliberado na sessão plenária de 02/05/2024, o Tribunal Superior Eleitoral (TSE) autorizou que pessoas que desejem se alistar, revisar ou transferir seus títulos para o Rio Grande do Sul possam fazer solicitações até dia 23/05/2024."

In any event, I'll attempt to get some info in person.

07/24/24 @jonesio.  That's right, I forgot how close we are to the next election; I guess that they've already locked the system down.  Maybe they'll do something for you in person since you just received your citizenship.  Sorry about that, but it's one more reason that you really couldn't be expected to have your Brazilian documents before your trip.

To jonesio:

Is it such a mess in Salvador?

Did you check at https://www.gov.br/pt-br/servicos/obter … brasileiro ?

I got my brazilian citizenship jure sanguinis, in 2018, at the brazilian consulate in Milan Italy, and perhaps it was a little different from a naturalization.

Back then I was able to obtain my brazilian passport about one month after I've got my citizenship, at the brazilian consulate. And it was an electoral year.

Asking the brazilian passport at a Brazil's consulate in Canada, if fieasible whilst you'll be there, might be worth a try?

@jonesio

Applying for a Brazilian passport at this point is not recommended. You must have registered or exempted from TSE, CIN, and Junta Militar (Military Enlistment). These are obligatory conditions, and the PF passport system has paired up with these entities actually, Consequently, as soon as the PF agent inputs your details into the system, a red flag will pop up, leading to your denial and loss of travel expenses.

*Already paid passport fees are valid for upto a year.

Your CRNM won't be cancelled until your Brazilian passport has been issued, you ought to leave/enter with your Canadian passport along with your valid CRNM. As a naturalized citizen, when you apply for a Brazilian passport, the PF passport delivery agent are going to request for your CRMN at the time of passport delivery and you will receive an email notification of the cancellation of your CRMN within 24h.

I can offer you suggestions based on my personal experience since I recently went through these procedures myself.

    @jonesioApplying for a Brazilian passport at this point is not recommended.         -@Nomad Mundo

Thank you for your detailed reply, Nomad Mundo. If I understand you correctly, are you suggesting that I obtain the CIN (formerly RG) before applying for a passport? It sounds as though that would get around the problems you describe. Unfortunately, as I will outline below, that seems impossible in Bahia at the moment;

I have made some inquiries since my first post. Here's where things stand.

1. I cannot get a titulo eleitoral from the TSE until the process opens up again on November 5, after the elections. I spoke with a TSE rep today who says that for a passport application the best I can do is to obtain a certidão eleitoral circunstanciada describing my current eleitoral status, which she recommended I present with a passport application (but she said it migh not be accepted by the PF as proof of my electoral status). I can get one of those quickly.
2. I  cannot  even  apply for my Carteira de Identidade Nacional (CIN) in Bahia. No government office (SAC) in Salvador is taking  reservations appintments for either a CIN  based on recent naturalization or for those who want to to replace existing RGs with the new CIN. The reservation system won't even allow those wanting to make an appointment in Salvador to search the agenda past the end of this month, and nothing is available this month. This mess has been created by the fact that the CIN issuance started in Bahia later than everywhere else and few SACs are equipped to deal with it. In fact, the only place in the entire state I could make an appointment is 400km away, and it has only one day available in Auigust. Until this is resolved, I won't be able to get a CIN.
3. This means if I were to apply for a passport, and if it were approved based on the Certidão eleitoral circunstanciada, I would have a passport but no CIN. Based on what you said, I would lose my CRNM if my passport is issued, leaving me with no identity card at all.  I'm not even sure whether the PF would accept my CRNM (which is actually a CIE because I've been here for 25 years and am old enough that I don't have to renew or replace it)

At this stage it seems that I have little choice but to do nothing until I arrive back from Canada in mid-November, by which time I will be able to start the process by obtaining my titulo eleitoral and, hopefully, the Bahia CIN mess will have been resolved. Of course, this means I have to hope that nobody at immigration notices that I am a citizen, not a permament resident, whenI leave and return to Brasil. I travel frequently, but am likely to stay in Brasil for at least six months after my return in November so I would have more time to get this done. (BTW, the military service issue isn't a problem for me because I am beyond the age at which it matters).

Does this make sense to you (or anyone else reading this)? Or if you have any other suggestions based on your experience and what I've just described, I'd be happy to hear them

    To jonesio:
Is it such a mess in Salvador?
Did you check at https://www.gov.br/pt-br/servicos/obter … brasileiro ?


    -@glimpser

Yes, it is a mess. For details, see my recent reply to NomadMundo. In short, no appointments are available to get a Carteira de Identidade Nacional (CIN) in Salvador or anywhere within 400 km of Salvador. And the TSE is not issuing new titulos until November elections are over. That's not Bahia's fault, but it means the state eleitoral office are also not issuing them.

07/26/24 This means if I were to apply for a passport, and if it were approved based on the Certidão eleitoral circunstanciada, I would have a passport but no CIN. Based on what you said, I would lose my CRNM if my passport is issued, leaving me with no identity card at all.  I'm not even sure whether the PF would accept my CRNM (which is actually a CIE because I've been here for 25 years and am old enough that I don't have to renew or replace it)At this stage it seems that I have little choice but to do nothing until I arrive back from Canada in mid-November, by which time I will be able to start the process by obtaining my titulo eleitoral and, hopefully, the Bahia CIN mess will have been resolved.         -@jonesio

Like you, prior to naturalization I had a CIE with "validade indeterminado" issued under the pre-2017 law.  I was not asked to surrender it when I received my passport, nor advised by email or any other method that it had been canceled (although it was obviously obsolete).  Perhaps this is a requirement that only applies to CRNMs issued under the 2017 law, or it may be one of those Brazilian regulations that apply everywhere, except where it doesn't, like so many at DETRAN.  It could even been part of the general inattention to immigration of the Bolsonaro Administration, in charge when I was naturalized:  they were, after all the people who did away with the Certificate of Naturalization as a "paperwork reduction reform", fortunately quickly restored by the current Administration.  I don't doubt that @Nomad Mundo was required to surrender his CRNM; I'll be interested to hear what your experience is, after your return.   

As for your trip, I think that your plan is a good one, with very little risk.

  Like you, prior to naturalization I had a CIE with "validade indeterminado" issued under the pre-2017 law.  I was not asked to surrender it when I received my passport, nor advised by email or any other method that it had been canceled (although it was obviously obsolete).  Perhaps this is a requirement that only applies to CRNMs issued under the 2017 law, or it may be one of those Brazilian regulations that apply everywhere, except where it doesn't, like so many at DETRAN.  It could even been part of the general inattention to immigration of the Bolsonaro Administration, in charge when I was naturalized:  they were, after all the people who did away with the Certificate of Naturalization as a "paperwork reduction reform", fortunately quickly restored by the current Administration.  I don't doubt that @Nomad Mundo was required to surrender his CRNM; I'll be interested to hear what your experience is, after your return.    As for your trip, I think that your plan is a good one, with very little risk.        -@abthree

Thanks for the information, and the assurance.

Does the Certificado de Naturalização exist again? I followed the directions on the gov.br site to obtain a copy electronically and, after subscribing to the SEI site as instructed, was presented with an advisory that it hasn't existed since 2017. (See my result in the link.)

https://i.imgur.com/L2xLhiH.jpeg

07/26/24 Does the Certificado de Naturalização exist again? I followed the directions on the gov.br site to obtain a copy electronically and, after subscribing to the SEI site as instructed, was presented with an advisory that it hasn't existed since 2017. (See my result in the link.)
https://i.imgur.com/L2xLhiH.jpeg-@jonesio

This is where I got mine:

https://www.gov.br/pt-br/servicos/obter … uralizacao

This is where I got mine:

https://www.gov.br/pt-br/servicos/obter … uralizacao-@abthree

That's where I started, then followed the "web" option. It led me to the SEI! site, which required me to provide a bunch of documents and wait a day for approval. Then, when I clicked on the link for Certidão de Naturalização It informed me they no longer exist. Strange!

@jonesio

You may write to the Naturalization Division-MJSP (dinat@mj.gov.br). You may request expedited consideration by outlining your circumstances.

In my case, DNAT told me that my case would take 45 days to process, however I requested nicely and received mine within two weeks.

07/26/24 That's where I started, then followed the "web" option. It led me to the SEI! site, which required me to provide a bunch of documents and wait a day for approval. Then, when I clicked on the link for Certidão de Naturalização It informed me they no longer exist. Strange!        -@jonesio

That's amazing and very disappointing.  When I sent you the link I was on my phone and couldn't follow it into the SEI site, but I just did on my computer, and found my request for the cert on June 1, 2022, and that they sent me the cert electronically on June 3, 2022.  I keep the electronic version on my computer, and a printout in the file with my naturalization documents. 

What a shame if they've permanently stopped such an efficient and useful service.

Are you guys doing like this??

https://sei.mj.gov.br/sei/controlador_e … f670fac186

*It is intended for the request for the issuance of a Certificate attesting to the naturalization of an individual. The Ministry of Justice and Public Security no longer issues naturalization certificates, in accordance with Law No. 13,445/2017, naturalization takes effect immediately after the publication in the Official Gazette of the Union of the Naturalization Ordinance*

Above is the disclaimer advising that what was said in 13,445/2017. Prior to 13,445/2017, MJSP used to send certificates to your local city court based on your address on file, and you had to visit the court and present yourself before the judge and receive your certificate. Now, DNAT-MJSP issues certifications entirely online. The preceding disclaimer only applies to the prior system.

Just thought I would update the discussion in my post about the naturalization certificate (CERTIDÃO POSITIVA DE NATURALIZAÇÃO). The advisory that these are no longer available eventually disappeared from the SEI site, so I was finally able to make a request for the certificate. It took just under a month for my request to be processed, and I was finally provided with an electronic certificate a week ago. Slow, and the site is a little complicated because it appears to be something out of the computing world of the 1990s, but it worked,.

As for the other aspects of citizenship, I am still unable to apply for a new  identity card (CIN) or passport because I must first obtain my  titulo eleitoral from the TSE, which I mentioned earlier can't be done until early November, after the second round of the current elections. That will be followed by extreme difficulty in making an appointment to get a CIN in Bahia because everyone is doing the same thing after the process for obtaining the new CIN cards began. I check the SAC app daily and no appointments have been available in Salvador for weeks. I might have to try to plead with the PF to see if they can help me out, since unlike most Brazilians I need a first-time CIN as a new citizen instead of a replacement for an existing RG, which can be done any time until 2032. But that will have to wait until I get the  titulo eleitoral.

So, life goes on......