CPF Number vs Social Security Number

bepmoht - my take on the CPF is that it is a tax ID (Receita Federal) and not a retirement income ID, which would be from the INSS. I don't have INSS so I've not been exposed to issues about protecting one's INSS info.

MattB

@bepmoht I'll let our resident EXPAT.COM expert answer that one, but they are for two different purposes. For the purpose of the CPF it is necessary to give it out when a retail purchase is made. It is a good idea, though, not to share it with someone else. Think of it the same way you use your credit card. You would provide it to the retailer / gas station etc., but you would not share it with anyone else.... even if they were your ex-wife.

Roddie in Retirement🕵

12/13/24 @bepmoht.  The People of the United States are even more opposed to any type of a National Identity Card than they are to using the Metric System, so don't expect either to happen very soon.  In the last third of the 20th Century there was a spontaneous effort to use the Social Security Number (SSN) as a de facto National ID (even though the Card has always said on it "For Social Security and Tax Purposes -- Not For Identification") to meet a perceived need for identification, but the result was an ongoing stolen identity theft disaster because of inherent weaknesses in the system for any identity application.  Hence the pullback on other uses, and the warnings that have been drilled into us for years.

I won't say that it's absolutely impossible to steal someone's identity in Brazil, or to generate a false identity, with a valid CPF compared to a SSN in the United States, but it would be a lot harder.  Every Brazilian citizen has a photo ID with biometric data, the Registro Geral (RG), now being replaced by the Carteira de Identidade Nacional (CIN), with even more security.  Legal resident foreigners have the similar CRNM that we're all so familiar with.  Neither of those is easy to get, and one or the other is needed in addition to a CPF for activities like opening a bank account, buying a house, getting a job (with a Labor Card, too), buying a car, and many other significant activities.  The documents aren't easy to forge, and with a much lower rate of illegal immigration than the US has, the demand isn't comparable.

In a country with a relatively small number of surnames, the CPF does help to keep from confusing a particular José dos Santos's cell account from those of all the other José dos Santoses in the town.  There are a lot of cases like that where it's legitmately useful. An incredible number of people in Brazil are named Silva, Santos, or Lima alone, probably more of each than the Smiths in any English-speaking country.

That said, I try not to give my CPF when I make retail purchases.  I'm not worried about identity theft, but the Nota Fiscal system has the inherent capability of updating government databases with the information of most of the purchase transactions in the country.  If my CPF is on all my purchases, then in principle, it could track all my purchases, too.  I'm not saying that it does that, or even has developed the tools to do that -- yet.  But why make it easier?

"Eu so estrangeiro"..........3 magic words if you are worried about that angle.

@abthree

Makes sense. I guess there are advantages of a National ID database. The CPF tax id I guess is somewhat necessary in the way you present its purposes.

I wonder how the RF uses the CPF information....

For instance if my CPF is used in Brazil while I am in the US, will this raise a flag?  The example is a perfectly legal way to use my CPF as someone else could be paying my bills.

I guess that the CPF data provides an indication of economic activity.  However, there is also the cash economy that is not tracked...

You MUST give a CPF number for any purchase over R$1000, but you can CHOOSE to give it or not for a purchase of a lower value. If you do not want to give it for a purchase of over R$1000, then close the transaction (eg part of your shopping) before you reach R$1000 and pay for it, then start again!

The reason, I believe, for wanting a CPF number on large purchases is if a person is declaring very low income, yet buying millions in purchases, then the system will probably ring alarm bells. But a CPF is useless as any form of ID on its own, and is merely a tax ID number.

12/13/24 I wonder how the RF uses the CPF information....
I guess that the CPF data provides an indication of economic activity. However, there is also the cash economy that is not tracked... - @Pablo888

One curious thing that I discovered during the CIN process is that other agencies compare the identification data presented to them to the RF database, but the RF only records the mother's name, not the names of both parents. 

but the RF only records the mother's name, not the names of both parents. - @abthree

@abthree, yes, this is an interesting factoid.  There must be a reason for this.  May be with some more choppes, the truth may come out.

Just like many inventions started with coffee and drawings on a napkin, it would not surprise me that policies were conceived around drinks and social gatherings.

I am just looking forward to going to Brasil and spend quality R&R with Brasileiros.

12/14/24 but the RF only records the mother's name, not the names of both parents.  - @abthree
@abthree, yes, this is an interesting factoid. There must be a reason for this. May be with some more choppes, the truth may come out.
- @Pablo888

My hypothesis is the high number of Birth Certificates with no father listed.  There's been more pressure on cartórios to show a father on every possible Birth Certificate in recent years, especially since direct payments to families with children like Bolsa Família become widespread, but less before.

@abthree Always wondered about this since my initial introduction to Brazil was through my 2nd. mother after my natural mother passed when I was 5 and my Brazilian mother became a part of the family when I was about 8.

There is no Brazilian Government connection to my Brazilian 2nd. mother and rarely to my natural father.

Roddie in Retirement🕵

@abthree

Talking about mother’s names and CPF registry.

I’ve mentioned this before on the forum. My mother‘s name on my birth certificate, which is the birth certificate that I used to get my CPF and my permanent residency is her complete maiden name. For example; Susan Mary Smith. This is the name I believe is registered with my CPF number. It was obtained many years before I applied for residency. The name on my residency card for my mother is her married name.  For example;

Susan S Jones. She always used Susan Smith Jones as her married name. This way, keeping her maiden name in the mix. So, I often wonder if I should make the name of my CPF record Susan Smith Jones, instead of Susan Mary Smith? Or, does it really not make any difference? I have no clue. It’s just a little bit of a pain that I always have to remember this. For example, if I’m applying for something online and they want to check my CPF record and ask for my mother‘s last name I always have put Jones instead of Smith. Confusing,eh? Perhaps this is the way it is for everyone, does everyone have this situation?

@bepmoht My mother's name on my birth certificate is her married name.  Her maiden name is not on any of those documents.  I normally will not disclose that information, since it is one of the few identifying items that hasn't been compromised.  My mothers married name appears on my CPF and CRNM, since that is her legal name. 

@mikehunter

Nice.. Well in New York State (where I was born) in the 1950s for some reason they specifically asked for the mothers “maiden name”, that’s just the way it was. I’m glad everything is consistent on your documents.

@bepmoht Each state probably has their own rules on how the handle birth certificates - and after checking I found that there are actually 2 options I could have used.  The default option which has basic information, and the long form which has the mother's maiden name, hospital name, time of birth, etc. etc. etc.  When I applied for my documents, I used the default option.  I didn't even think about the long option.  Guess I lucked out.  ;-)

12/14/24 @bepmoht.  Same for me:  New York State Birth Certificate with mother's full maiden name, including middle name.  Which became the sticking point for me, because my husband and I got married in Illinois and registered our marriage at the Brazilian Consulate General in Chicago, which required my original Birth Certificate to issue the Certidão Consular de Casamento and included my parents' names as shown there.  The Certidão Consular was transcribed verbatim onto our Brazilian Marriage Certificate, which is the one document that apparently any Brazilian document either of us  takes out for the rest of our lives will have to match. 

Problem was that I got my CPF before we were married, and provided my mother's name in the usual American style, First Name, Last (Maiden) Name, no middle name, and showed her name and my father's names the same way on my Naturalization Petition.  So the Receita Federal and Justice Ministry records had to be retconned to match the Marriage Certificate before I could get my new ID Card. 

@abthree, since we are in the domain of names, how does Brasil handle hyphenated names?  My wife has a hyphen in her name and this is already causing confusion with her US passport which cannot include dashes.

She has not applied for the CPF yet and am wondering if she should use her passport - which has her name all in 1 word or her birth certificate and marriage certificate which have a hyphen.

The kids birth certificates do not have hyphens and the name are in 2 words. Ay ay ay....

@Pablo888 I briefly want to congratulate you for the question and tackling it ahead of time. As I may have mentioned before, my Brazilian Permanent Residency is due to my Brazilian daughter, because my Brazilian wife did not have an easy id with her documents.

Good Luck!

Roddie in Retirement🕵

Is one way to resolve this multiple name issue is to have a name change also known as AKA?  Will the Brazil government accept this AKA document as proof that this is the same person?

I had my name shortened about 30 years ago because I was afraid that people would get confused.  I am glad that I did that.

Funny that in my 28 yrs of marriage, this issue is just appearing....  I guess that I had a long honeymoon and I just woke up....

@abthree

This topic is hilarious in a way. I wish I still had the paperwork that I filled out for my permanent visa and RNE card way back in 2008. I started the process at the Boston consulate and originally it was supposed to be based on marriage to a Brazilian (my wife).Finally when I got my, permanent visa (it took like a year because at the time the Boston consulate was horrible at processing these things) and I reported to the policia  Federal, they informed me that it was based on retirement. Our certificate of marriage, which was registered at the cartorio in Brazil years later (2019) has my mother‘s maiden name just like it’s on my birth certificate. However, for some reason, my RNE card has her married name. I don’t know how this happened. It must have been the particular paperwork on the application at the time that asked for parents names, I do not know what proof they asked for at this time of my parents names but, I believe it was my birth certificate. I may have a PDF file on an old hard drive someplace with the copy of the original application but we’re talking ancient history here. Anyway, it’s all bizarre at this point in time.

12/15/24 @abthree, since we are in the domain of names, how does Brasil handle hyphenated names? My wife has a hyphen in her name and this is already causing confusion with her US passport which cannot include dashes. - @Pablo888

Brazil is NOT friendly to name forms that don't conform to Luso-Brazilian naming conventions (if you want to risk a headache, this is a good summary of those conventions:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_name) .  My lawyer husband doesn't know whether hyphenated surnames are legal or illegal; I've found legal cases in several states where the judges have not allowed Brazilians to add hyphens, but all of those cases involved changes to birth certificates, which is almost never allowed in Brazil, so there may not have been a specific objection to the hyphen.  That near-sanctity of Birth Certificates may provide your solution.

In your wife's case, I don't imagine that she wants her name run together the way it is on her passport.  If I remember correctly, you'll be going the "Golden Visa" route, so you're going to have apostilled copies of your Birth Certificates with Sworn Translations for the Polícia Federal anyway, and she'll get her CPF before you start the residency process, since it's so much faster.  Assuming that the name she wants is the one on the Birth Certificate, that's the document she should show to the people at the RF.  If asked, she can explain that the run-together name on her passport was due to a technical issue with the US passport system, and that the Birth Certificate name is her real name.  They should accommodate her, or at least insert a space between the names, which would comply with local practice.  She should print off her CPF card, and then when you go to the PF she'll have TWO documents with the right name, one a Birth Certificate and one from the RF, and they should accommodate her.

If the hyphen is the result of combining her maiden name with yours. she can try the same thing with the Marriage Certificate.  They're more likely in that case, though, to insist on a space rather than a hyphen, since that fits local practice.

Thank you @abthree.  Space in the name rather than traço - it is.

She kept her maiden name and she did not make a name change.  Good thing that I did not insist....