Aids Agencies and Rebuilding Process for Libya

*** drugless and do your own homework

Sandman6 wrote:

**** drugless and do your own homework

are you 12 years old or something?

Sandman6 wrote:

*** drugless and do your own homework

oh.. now i get it. you're british. but 2 can play your word games.

"homework" for what exactly? what "homework" are you referring to ja sandman? maybe home work how to make extra money from libyan peoples? maybe homework how to make triple what what you can make at home so you can buy houses and apartments back in your own country? homework how to steal good paying jobs from libyan peoples? ja sandman, i am your biggest nightmare. we will take our money and build education facilities and train libyans how to build they own country and fill their own high paying jobs. libya is going to be rebuilt by libyans for libyans only. no room in libya anymore for foreigners who will take away good jobs and good salaries from libyans. game over! halas!

douglas1969 are you Libyan by any chance?

trex wrote:

douglas1969 are you Libyan by any chance?

libya must get rebuilt by libyans for libyans. we are trying to garner as much support and money for this effort as we can.

foreigners, in whos best interest it is to make sure the rebuilding process takes as long as possible so they can collect quadruple their normal salaries for as long as possible can not be expected to rebuild libya! from what i have been seeing of the real people taking, the root issues on top of a dictatorship were poverty, no prospects, low education and low literacy.  the new libya needs to address those issues and make them go away forever. going back to the endless spiral / old ways / of having foreigners leeching off the system and sucking money back into their own countries has to end. we will try to give libyans the training and education to make sure they can get their own good jobs in their own country.

This training that you speak of, is it charity work ? Somehow I think not, you yourself are there to suck money out of Libya.
Libya was awash with two bit training companies that had little to offer before the revolution. How many actually invested in a professional purpose built training centre ? None.

Flasher wrote:

This training that you speak of, is it charity work ? Somehow I think not, you yourself are there to suck money out of Libya.

Bulls eye! That answers my question too.

Flasher wrote:

This training that you speak of, is it charity work ?

Sure it is. A not-for-profit lobby group lobbying for  K12 and higher education reform in a new country counts as a not-for profit. The key to rebuilding a new country is education. You will never get people better paying jobs and raise their  standard of living by keeping them uneducated and unable to do highly skilled jobs.

Look at it this way, for the cost of sending one Libyan to a foreign university to get educated, you can educate 10 Libyans locally at the university level and probably at least 20 Libyans locally in the community college level. You do not need 6 years of university education to do a higher skilled level job. A 2 or 3 year collegite level education is more than enough to help them get good jobs and help the 40+ % of the population that is at or below poverty level pull itself out of poverty level. The key is Libyan government subsidized education for Libyans only.

Our group is comprised on highly experience faculty, staff and professionals and what our group plans to do is going to be 1000x more productive and positive for the country than security firms roaming the country looking for trouble. Our organization will help the country pull itself out of the key problems which have been plaguing it for the past 40 years.

You are full of Drugless. Libya is now officially one of the most fucked up countries on earth along with Pakistan, Somalia and the rest. Yeah....sort out the , and you'll still be in the stone age 20 years from now. Just grow up and accept that Libya is fucked up due to a Libyan.

Sandman6 wrote:

You are full of shit Drugless. Libya is now officially one of the most fucked up countries on earth along with Pakistan, Somalia and the rest. Yeah....sort out the shit yourselves, and you'll still be in the stone age 20 years from now. Just fucking grow up and accept that Libya is  due to a Libyan.

Sandman. You need to stay off the coffee. What is wrong with your head? Why do you want to go to Libya if you seem to hate the people and the country so much? Why wouldn't you want to help the peoples of Libya build a new future for themselves? That's what the entire past 9 months of war were about. A new future! A new future begins as people forget the past.

The future of Libya is in the hands of the Libyan people themselves. If they chose to "fuck" it up they will. If they chose to not do so, they won't. I am trying to put the past behind and accept the new chapter in history.  Also, don't forget that the population is much smaller than Iraq or Somalia. There are much less people who can "it up".

You were for democracy and free elections as most on this forum are? Part of democracy and free elections is you have to accept a decision which you don't like or agree with. That's how it works.

Did I just enter the twilight zone?  Douglas1969 used to be the one saying that Libya was F'd up and Sandman was the insider. Oh well... the only thing in life that is constant is change.  Anyways, back to topic, Libyans are comparatively very literate and well educated.  The problem was (and probably still is) that it wasn't what you know but who you know.  If you had wasta you were golden.  If anyone has a magic bullet for corruption, nepotism, and cronyism please sent it Libya's way.

What a pretty discussion!!! Lovely Q&A... Anyway, Douglas, What is your group doing? I'm one of the foreigners that has recently arrived in Tripoli and we hope we will be allowed to deliver some aid as equal partners, I am interested to know what your group is doing and how can we help... but, really guys, this attitude... "you suck... no you suck MORE..." a bit infantile.
Is the colour of your passport really that important? Maybe not all the foreigners are evil blood(petrol) suckers... really, do not believe everything Gaddafi said about us.

GISgirl wrote:

Douglas1969 used to be the one saying that Libya was F'd

True. I thought the civil war would drag on for 20+ years. And I was wrong. And I will save you the time wasted by chasing other old posts. I was rooting for Qadddafi's side for most of the war as I had every good reason to be. Qaddafi was the president every since I was a child, his picture was always on the wall. I had no clue (and I still don't really have a clue!) who the rebels and NTC really are. But the war is gladly over and these are the people who will be changing and fixing the country and I put my faith in their good graces.

Also, the Qaddafi and his regime never did anything to me or my family or harmed anyone I personally know in anyway. Everyone that I know actually benefited a great deal from Qaddafi and his regime. Sure, there were stories, and as we currently are seeing in the media, there are lots of stories, but as pointed out earlier, I had to reason to personally hate the regime as it never harmed me or anyone I personally know.

And peoples minds, thoughts and attitudes change. And its good that they do, otherwise no one would ever put down their arms  and would just keep fighting for causes which are long lost. This whole thing is over now and the process of fixing and rebuilding needs to get going.

Nepotism and corruption is everywhere. I am sure even places like Norway and Sweden and Britain, oy! --  has it as well?

But your comment has nothing to do with the big picture. What our group is trying to do by trying to bring the vast majority of Libyan peoples out of poverty through enabling them to get better paying jobs through heavy education reform in Libya. To build up educational excellence within the country and be able to train and educate people at an international quality level with a primary focus of keeping them living and employed in Libya to rebuild the country

In case you are not aware, there was a very strong employ Libyans in Libya policy under Qaddafi. And many foreign firms had to hire Libyans in positions which they didn't want to. The problems was it was a broken system and not well planned out. There was very different and comparatavily "poor" education in the country and the Libyans were not qualified for the positions they were placed in, and as a result, were not able to do much. Our group is hoping to change that and this is the opportunity to do it.

jotxo wrote:

Douglas, What is your group doing? I'm one of the foreigners that has recently arrived in Tripoli and we hope we will be allowed to deliver some aid as equal partners,

Unfortunately, right now, the group isn't doing much. We are having a hard time finding or getting though to anyone.  The focus is on lobbying the new government to reform the K12 and Education sectors. But that government has to be created first. Usually this kind of successful reform will almost always have a byproduct of opportunities for 3rd party vendors in the form of materials, supplies, content, food e.t.c. A college and university needs a lot more than just students and teachers to keep it functioning and operating properly.

Sandman6 wrote:

Libya is now officially one of the most fucked up countries on earth along with Pakistan, Somalia and the rest....Just grow up and accept that Libya is fucked up due to a Libyan.

I can't understand you bro. You already used to think Libya was one of the most effed up places on earth before the uprising. Did you have a change of heart and decide that it really was a fabulous country until the revolution against Gaddafi's wise rule?

Just ignore this guy. He is and was always nothing more than a bigot and a racist whose main purpose in visiting this forum was to take shots at Libya, Libyans, and life in Libya. People who live in third world countries tend to develop a better understanding of people, cultures, and economic and social issues. Not so in his case, it would seem.

douglas1969 wrote:

Flasher wrote:

This training that you speak of, is it charity work ?

Sure it is. A not-for-profit lobby group lobbying for  K12 and higher education reform in a new country counts as a not-for profit.

So your doing all this out of the goodness of your heart for the the people of Libya and you're volunteering your services for no salary. Somehow I think not.

You can paint bullshit red but it's still bullshit.

hmm..I wonder what the admin of this site is doing?

Flasher wrote:

douglas1969 wrote:

Flasher wrote:

This training that you speak of, is it charity work ?

Sure it is. A not-for-profit lobby group lobbying for  K12 and higher education reform in a new country counts as a not-for profit.

So your doing all this out of the goodness of your heart for the the people of Libya and you're volunteering your services for no salary. Somehow I think not.

You can paint bullshit red but it's still bullshit.

There are different types of not-for-profit organizations. Some are just fronts for fund raisers to keep themselves employed and give themselves inflated salaries and other ones are real and have a real purpose.

I think you don't understand what this group is. Its a lobby group of academics trying to get in a hearing and convince the new government to make education a higher priority than foreign contracts. This is not new uncharted territory. Every single modern nations is doing this.

This effort does not mean there will be no jobs for foreigners. This effort does mean trying to give more Libyans in Libya good jobs which might have gone to foreigners at some point under the previous regieme.

Sandman6 wrote:

..Libya is ******* up due to a Libyan.

Not true and you have no understanding of Libya. Qaddafi was not a typical Libyan. He was a very peculiar person and it's in the past now. Anyways, Libya will never be a Pakistan or Nigeria purely based on the fact that the population is no where near as large and no where near as diverse -- its almost all Arab.

Flasher wrote:

So your doing all this out of the goodness of your heart for the the people of Libya and you're volunteering your services for no salary. Somehow I think not.

You apparently seem unaware of the fact that almost all NGOs, not-for-profits, and other organizations who do any sort of work to advance "a good cause", pay (modest) salaries or at least allowances to most of their staff. If you want to attract people who will actually be competent at what you want them to do then you're going to have to pay them something. People need to live.

That doesn't mean that there aren't organizations out there that give their biggest people somewhat extragavant salaries, but even then that doesn't necessarily mean that they accomplish nothing. I'm assuming you've heard of Wikipedia, because that would be a case in point.

What I find to be somewhat ridiculous is how you evidently seem to think that someone who he is here strictly to make money is A-OK, but someone whose come here to work on a cause they believe in is someone out to make a quick buck who deserves nothing but criticism and insults. Give the guy a break and stop being so quick to judge.


By the way douglas, I like your website

Thebigtuna wrote:

to advance "a good cause", pay (modest) salaries or at least allowances to most of their staff.

Depends much on the organization I think. I always suggest people go visit the office parking lot of the NGO. If you see a lot of brand new BMW's and Land Rovers, it's plainly obvious what they are up to.

This is not an NGO. Its a lobby group trying to get the country to make building more and better schools a top priority. Fyi, thats also what Obama is trying to do in the US to compete with the rising tide of Indian and Chinese universities which seem to be producing much more and just as competent graduates at a fraction of the costs the US ones are doing.

I totally agree that education is a big need in Libya, but until the culture changes it is always going to be a struggle, ask anyone living / working in an Arab culture.
Primary School:
Children are out with family until late at night, Ramadan and Eid children are up until the middle of the night, they are then too tired to study and fall asleep in class.
Higher Education: Degree's are bought and sold, easily, two years ago a friend (Libyan) needed a degree, within two days he had one, direct from the University, not a forgery, an actual degree.
January of this year a female friend (Libyan) had an examination scheduled, she received a phone call telling her the exam time had been moved forward 5 hours, she now had 10 minutes to get to the exam class, which she could not do, so they failed her, no discussion.
I totally agree that Libya should be for Libyans, BUT you need to accept that this will take a lot of input from Expats and that comes with a cost.
Posts like the above, condemning all expats and accusing us all of trying to rip off the Libyan people will not help at all and may put people off coming to Libya to train and educate, leaving the door open to those that only wish to exploit as they will be the only choice left available to you.

officeboy wrote:

I totally agree that education is a big need in Libya, but until the culture changes it is always going to be a struggle, ask anyone living / working in an Arab culture.
Primary School:
Children are out with family until late at night, Ramadan and Eid children are up until the middle of the night, they are then too tired to study and fall asleep in class.
Higher Education: Degree's are bought and sold, easily, two years ago a friend (Libyan) needed a degree, within two days he had one, direct from the University, not a forgery, an actual degree.
January of this year a female friend (Libyan) had an examination scheduled, she received a phone call telling her the exam time had been moved forward 5 hours, she now had 10 minutes to get to the exam class, which she could not do, so they failed her, no discussion.
I totally agree that Libya should be for Libyans, BUT you need to accept that this will take a lot of input from Expats and that comes with a cost.
Posts like the above, condemning all expats and accusing us all of trying to rip off the Libyan people will not help at all and may put people off coming to Libya to train and educate, leaving the door open to those that only wish to exploit as they will be the only choice left available to you.

There are two very different things you are posting about and two very problematic issues with what you are trying to tackle.

#1 - You are passing your own values, opinions and judgements on a culture that are very different and distinct than your own. How a Libyan woman and man go about, and the choices they make,  in raising a Libyan child, are and always will be, very different than your own choices. How a Libyan Imam goes about teaching the Koran and crafting new Mulsims is also going to be very different than what you understand. These are elemental societal and cultural differences between you and the local population and are beyond the scope of what education reforms or political reforms can change and it will not change anytime soon as they have taken 1000 years to develop.

Btw - you might want to take into account climate difference between whatever place you are comparing Libyan parents parenting skills to before you pass judgement. For you will notice that in the boiling hot "Catholic!" south of Spain, the locals will be strolling around the center of town with their toddlers wide awake at 11pm as they have already had a log nap in the middle of the day and its still boiling hot at 11pm.


#2 - Circumventing the rigid academic obstacles is possible anywhere. Should you happen to have a rich parent who donates 1 millon pounds to Oxford or Cambridge, you will have your pick of any hard to enter program you wish to attend (regardless of your grades entering) and you will graduate without issue. ;-) It has no bearing on the big picture of the quality of graduates the university pumps out. The unique cases you mention are unique and has little bearing on the quality of Libyans professors, their integrity, their intelligence or their abilities.

Mate, no matter what anyone say's you'll argue against it.

I bow to your obviously superior knowledge and look forward to your future posts.

OB

officeboy wrote:

Mate, no matter what anyone say's you'll argue against it.

I bow to your obviously superior knowledge and look forward to your future posts.

OB

ahh. whatever mate! now you are putting on the superiority BS act for lack of something better.

so, lets get this straight, you spent the above post panning Libyans, you spent another post more worried about your car and what happened to your "stuff" than what happened to your neighbours while you were gone for 8 months, and now you are looking forward to Libyans giving you a nice cushy job and all your stuff back. and you can't phatom why a reader like me might think the way i do. i bow to your superior existence.

Hi All
yes ,most of what you have says Mr Douglas is very true. I am Libyan and from Tripoli and I know all things here , yes we need good education  ,good  health care ,reconstruction the country
the gaddafi regime does not offer any good thing to remember him.  He was Worst person in the world. And the first in a dictatorship, ignorance and stupidity and theft. he was the cause of scourge in Libya.
Now we will build our country  and change our life to be best than before.
  Thanks
  hakim

Hi all,

Where can I get a good schawarma in Tripoli?

lol  - so much for change!

Douglas, It seems your in a minority, Expats are wanted back: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011 … CMP=twt_gu

I was not panning Libyans, I was commenting on the culture. All my friends and neighbors are safe and well, I speak to a lot of them daily. My "stuff" is fine, I am annoyed about my car more than worried, It's more about the fact it's being driven by a work colleague who has the balls to lie about it on the phone.

MOEL. How are you mate, I hear the Schwarma shops near Regatta still do the best.

douglas1969 wrote:

Also, the Qaddafi and his regime never did anything to me or my family or harmed anyone I personally know in anyway. Everyone that I know actually benefited a great deal from Qaddafi and his regime. Sure, there were stories, and as we currently are seeing in the media, there are lots of stories, but as pointed out earlier, I had to reason to personally hate the regime as it never harmed me or anyone I personally know.
--------------------------------------------------------------

That itself shows how selfish you are! Not all people that stood up were harmed directly by the Gaddafi regime, but they stood up against the tyranny, human rights abuse and in solidarity with others who were affected by the brutality of the regime, anyway all Libyans were harmed by that regime in terms of health, education, freedom, etc…

and after all what Libyans have been through, you talk about re-building as if people have no feelings or have no right to mourn... who do you think you are? pretending that its time to turn the page and start buliding... it will be time to do that when the Libyan people decide (Libyans who actually live in LIBYA) not you or me or anyother person who just wants to make money!!

Duglass1969 its obvious that you, your family and the people that you know are EX Greenies Lejan Thawria Gaddaifs asskissers. So We dont want you or your greenie group in Libya.

Mo M

Mo_marrakech wrote:

Duglass1969 its obvious that you, your family and the people that you know are EX Greenies Lejan Thawria Gaddaifs asskissers. So We dont want you or your greenie group in Libya.

Mo M

يا راجل اسكت موضوع فوق راسك بكل و منكش فاهم منا شي اسكت خيرلك. هذي الحاجة الوحيدة اللي شاطرين فيها, حوار منكش فاهم منا شي و خاش اتسب في الراجل و تتهم فيه انا من اللجان الثوريه. والله مفش غير التصرفات زي هذي اللي تعطي  فالاجانب فكرة سيءة عن الليبيين.

Stick to English guy's.
OB

am sorry if u got the wrong impression by my using arabic. i realise this forum is for english speakers an i do speak english but i needed to tell that guy off a bit in arabic to make sure he understands. the conversation was over his head and it was quite rude of him to jump in with some stupid nonsensical insults when he doesnt even understand what the conversation is about.

No worries, welcome to the forum.
OB

Freeleach, I dont talk to fungs if you know what i mean ya tais

Freelunch, that's ok. He's just being Libyan. He even thinks algae are fungi.

Officeboy, delighted!

Greeni supporting a greenie 3abed how nice. I dont know who algea thing you talking about ya 3bed.

LeMonde wrote:

That itself shows how selfish you are! (-- rest snipped)

The point I was making was that people benefited from the previous regieme in various ways. Anyways, I am not about to waste more time or energy arguing about the Qaddafi or the previous regime or how bad an idea or concept Jamhariya was for Libya and its peoples. The war was fought and it is finished. Its all finished now. How long can you argue about something that is finished. Move on.

Regarding your other points. You make valid points. I didn't intend for you to think my intention was to indicate that everyone should stop what they are doing and start building the day after tomorrow or that they should not mourn the tragedy of the last year. But its time to start to plan to collect and throw guns in garbage as war is finished. Also, as I stated earlier, you need to first elect a government. This one is transitional one now. You are probably looking at mid to late 2012 maybe later.

Best.