Buying property in Hungary

klsallee wrote:

But, for what it is worth, cckmcc is considering on buying an apartment. So I doubt horrors of digging trenches is relevant to his issue. 

Needs a permit even if the pipe is simply re-routed. 

Our permit is 4 pages of A4, one of which is quite detailed and we also have two A3 plans - each showing the pipe routing.   They've all got rubber "acceptable" stamps on them.

I think the actual connection must be done be the gas company but the parts downstream (i.e. from the meter) can be done by qualified persons (not necessarily from the gas company).

Thanks for all the advice... it sounds like making your own renovations are much more complicated... Can I clarify though, are permits only require for certain renovations? Is there a list of what needs a permit and what can just be done to the apartment.

Also, any idea which is a good bank to go with to start transfer money over. Are there any banks which open on weekends that allow people to open a bank account or do I only have an option to go on a weekday? Any idea if any online bank accounts can be opened for foreigners. I tried with OTP but they came back with a whole bunch of requirements and the online reviews on them don't seem to promising.

I think I've narrowed down my searches just to District VIII as I agree V,VI and VII seem to be a bit overpriced now...maybe I'm too late in this whole investment idea!

Permits: I did not get any permits just afterwards inspections for Gas boiler and new Electrical board. Inside the apartment I renovated everything without any permits (that is really a blessing of Hungary compare to Western EU or US)
But, that is also why you have beautiful 19 C apartment with recessed lighting , curved, dropped ceilings of purple color and all other crazy features that Hungarians mistake for 'cool' . They really never done anything to most of theri properties in the past 60-100 years and now their inner Interior decorator re-awoke in a form of vague memory of German home-design magazine they have seen in 1983.
Seriously though you would need professional to arrange for final inspections and make sure he knows Hungarian code requirements to pass inspection on the first attempt.
Cannot advise on the bank as the two I have tried sucked. Next I will try Doitche or Citibank.
Some professions are in real shortage in Budpaest , such as roth iron, metal work or real professional carpenter. It is hard to make any Hungarian do any project for any money. They just don't need money that much. Not to say they live rich, they do not. It is just different set of mind that requires very little and happy with it.

MOHCTEP wrote:

Permits: I did not get any permits just afterwards inspections for Gas boiler ........why you have beautiful 19 C apartment with recessed lighting , curved, dropped ceilings of purple color and all other crazy features that Hungarians mistake for 'cool' . ...

We're just getting a boiler installed and we are not allowed to even screw it on the wall.  In fact, they (the gas company) refused our idea to have a gas stove  because we have a cooker hood. 

This is because the cooker hood could draw CO fumes inside the living room from our wood burner.  It's not entirely clear to me how our wood burner relates to our proposed gas cooking hob but it's even got as far as the gas people saying very directly they will forbid a gas outlet in our kitchen in case someone tries to connect to it.  It seems a bit OTT to me.  I have seen some rules elsewhere which say that you can only use the cooker hood when the window is open - i.e. it's controlled by a micro-switch. 

For gas, we have to use gas company approved people to connect the boiler to the gas supply - they are gas company subcontractors.   I am told the gas company rules vary by area so it might be different in Budapest itself (we're only about 500m from the Budapest city limit).  We also need the house to be inspected before we can occupy it.  That's not so unusual.

Regarding the internal renovations, I'm told there are no rules on decor inside so long as these things are not structural (i.e. knocking down walls).  Changing things like windows changes the aspect outside to the street so these do need permits.

fluffy2560 wrote:

We're just getting a boiler installed and we are not allowed to even screw it on the wall.

Are you new installing or replacing? New installs are different than just replacing a boiler.

fluffy2560 wrote:

In fact, they (the gas company) refused our idea to have a gas stove  because we have a cooker hood. 

This is because the cooker hood could draw CO fumes inside the living room from our wood burner.  It's not entirely clear to me how our wood burner relates to our proposed gas cooking hob

Because a cooking hood can create a negative pressure in the house, drawing in air from the wood burning stove.

Of course, this regulation assumes that you are not smart and are smoldering your wood so that it is producing a high CO content. Like most regulations, such goes to protect the least common denominator in the population, so we all suffer. Even if you are smart, never smolder your fire, have installed external air sources, with heat exchangers, so there is no way a cooking hood could cause a problem, we are still are all assumed to be stupid people as if none of those smart actions exist under the "regulations".

You may be able (in a normal society) to get an exemption if you could prove you have dealt with the potential for CO from the stove as I outlined above. But I would not really bother, as I find complex solutions seeking exceptions are not really understood or acknowledged here without difficulty.

I find the "Hungarian" solution is to just get someone later to run a gas line to the kitchen and hook up a gas stove. No, I am not advocating that. Because, yes, that is illegal. And yes, if one is smoldering their fires in their wood stoves it may kill them. And so yes, it is not smart. I am just simply reporting how things are often "done" here. There is an independence streak in Hungarians. I actually appreciate that (but only when expressed smartly).

Side note: I plan to replace our gas range with an inductive range, as I  really like the multiple features, including safety features, of the inductive method of cooking. But that does not solve gas oven issues of course.

fluffy2560 wrote:

For gas, we have to use gas company approved people to connect the boiler to the gas supply

For both gas and electricity, if new installing or reconnecting, you need to get an approved contractor. That is one thing you can not get around here.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Changing things like windows changes the aspect outside to the street so these do need permits.

Well... Again "need" is relative. For one thing, rules for windows and such do vary between towns, regions and villages (and in some cases on specific properties under protection). It is not really a blanket law.

But added to that.... A story.

Our cellar doors once needed to be painted. They were old. On their last legs. But a good coat of paint could help them stay alive a few more years. My wife always loved the Greek blues of doors and shutters, so she painted them a light Greek blue. It was like that for years. Our house, on a hill, is quite visible. Thousands of people driving by on a major nearby road could see it and our blue doors. In fact, our blue doors rather stuck out. Years later we learned that "blue" doors were against the rules. But we only learned this because we asked about colors of our roof which we were then renovating. Yet, all those years, nobody complained about our "illegal" doors. Nobody came and told us to repaint it, nobody came to fine us. The doors were blue for a decade, which then made them eligible for "grandfathering" in and they could stay that way forever. But the doors themselves had other plans and the frame finally rotted away. The new doors we stained oak (an approved color). But I guess we could have painted them blue again if we wanted. And I doubt anything would have happened. Even if blue was "against the rules". In other words... As I said.... Always try to follow the law if you know them. But again.... This is Hungary. Which seems to be a live-let-live society.* In other words, don't over sweat the small stuff. Hungarians often work together socially to find a solution.

*Post script: But If one had any disagreements with neighbors, then you better follow the rules, as they will like nothing better then to report you. Vindictiveness also seems to run high here. 

When we were the first for a very long time to replace our front door, we looked everywhere to find the right shade of boring old brown to fit in with the rest of the trim in the house.
Since then all sorts of shades of tan to dark brown have been added to the house.
We were under the impression that since the building was from the 19th century that we had to follow a sort of code as far as any new repairs fitting into the colors of the house.
Over half the apts. in the house have followed us by adding a metal door to replace out the old wood door.
I actually liked the old door that had a glass opening in the middle, just way to easy to break in when we were out of country though.
Our new door has 13 security bars built inside of it.
Only a limited edition of keys too.
We bought the door ourselves and brought it home but had a pro install it , he had to do a bit of wood work and make sure it fitted proper into then old plaster walls.

cckmcc wrote:

Any idea if any online bank accounts can be opened for foreigners.!

I have opened accounts at OTP, Raiffeisen and Erste Bank.

But I had to open each account here, in Hungary, in person.

They all have full service, online access, in English. But they all have their problems and issues. And those vary, and differ between them. Not really happy with any one bank in Hungary. I just grin and bear it.

klsallee wrote:

Are you new installing or replacing? New installs are different than just replacing a boiler.

It's a new install - my point was that I could easily fix it to the wall myself even if I did not connect the pipes.

klsallee wrote:

Because a cooking hood can create a negative pressure in the house, drawing in air from the wood burning stove.

Errr...that's what I said before.  Wood burner, yes, I know that, but we're forbidden from having a gas  hob as well which is odd since the cooker hood is directly above it. Other people have gas hobs even if they don't have wood burners but apparently we're not allowed.  They seem to have conflated the gas hob and the wood burner and forbidden us from having all gas in the kitchen (but it's OK for us to have electricity and a wood burner and a cooker hood).   They don't seem bothered with us having a gas boiler upstairs and a cooker hood downstairs.   It might be about gas and "open" flames.  We have no solid idea. 

In any case we have installed multiple smoke sensors AND we also took the time to have CO sensors upstairs and downstairs.  These are actually compulsory in some countries but not apparently in Hungary.  In any case, we're cautious. 

The solution would be (as I said) to put a microswitch on the window such that the cooker hood only works if you open the window. 

But Mrs Fluffy has given up as it's just too much hassle to argue and we want to get the work done. So we're going to be all electric in the kitchen.

klsallee wrote:

Side note: I plan to replace our gas range with an inductive range, as I  really like the multiple features, including safety features, of the inductive method of cooking. But that does not solve gas oven issues of course.

For both gas and electricity, if new installing or reconnecting, you need to get an approved contractor. That is one thing you can not get around here.

We looked at inductive hobs (ranges) but you need new saucepans and we've got nice ones. Didn't think it was worth it.

So long as you are doing the "house" side of the meter, you can essentially do what you like (but I wouldn't recommend it unless you know what you're doing). I'm pretty competent on electrical installations. I almost totally rewired my house in Austria (I needed the power company to do the other side of the meter) and I deal often with much larger electrical installations professionally.  I will be adjusting my wiring to my outbuilding when the weather improves. I already rewired it  once using overhead cabling as a temporary measure.   But now construction has moved on, I got the electrician who did the main house to give me 20m of armoured 3-phase cable and got a couple of lads to dig a proper trench to put the cable in. 

klsallee wrote:

Our cellar doors once needed to be painted.

That debate is soon to start with our new place.  What colour?   I was told blue houses mean you're a Romanian as that's popular down at the border apparently. Never noticed myself.  We could go sandy yellow as that's pretty popular or a light pink or even a forest green minimalist style.  No idea yet but bound to cause a stir thereabouts.

I'm gonna stir it up further by replacing my traditional post box with an old British post box.   I am already planning where to place my flag poles. I want to put my Union Jack up on the Queen's birthday and my England flag on St George's Day.  That'll put the cat with the pigeons. I might be able to get forgiveness if put up the Hungarian flat on the HU national day too. 

Anecdote: I asked my Austrian neighbour what colour I should paint my fence.  He advised brown. I said I'm thinking of blue or green.  He said that no way should fences be blue or green - not the done thing at all. People would complain. In the end, I painted his side brown and our side green.  That said, I went to the DIY store and sure enough, they do not even have blue or green fence paints.  I had to bring it from the UK (it was on special offer so it was well worth it).

fluffy2560 wrote:

That debate is soon to start with our new place.  What colour?

I finally go tired of local gossip. So for the house new plaster, we went with white....

fluffy2560 wrote:

I'm gonna stir it up further by replacing my traditional post box with an old British post box.   I am already planning where to place my flag poles. I want to put my Union Jack up on the Queen's birthday and my England flag on St George's Day.  That'll put the cat with the pigeons. I might be able to get forgiveness if put up the Hungarian flat on the HU national day too.

When my wife was the local mayor, she got complaints that someone put up a rainbow flag up on their own property.

Seriously? What is wrong with people?

It is someone's own freakin private property, for goodness sakes.... The complainers should sod off (as Brits may say).

She ignored the complaints. Much to her credit.

Thanks, would you know if any of them open on weekends to have bank accounts set up or is everything normally only available during the week?

cckmcc wrote:

Thanks, would you know if any of them open on weekends to have bank accounts set up or is everything normally only available during the week?

I do not have country wide experience, but I never saw a local bank open on Saturday or Sunday here.

There is a reason it is called bankers' hours...

I can only suggest you go to each bank's web site, and look at their published open hours. Also search on each branch. They may  show open hours for certain branches, which may have extended weekend hours.

I have  never noticed our bank being open on the weekends.
We sometimes go into their lobby to use the ATM and the building is dark and locked except for the ATM area.
We use Raiffeisen.
My in-laws had their rod iron fence in Erd painted a dark green with yellow trim. It made the house look "happy". I suppose they used paint for metal, a wood fence I suppose you might have to get it special mixed here in HU if they don't sell outdoor wood paint in green , blue, well, cop cod blue is nice but royal blue does seem a bit East LA, purple house too, just scream Ghetto.
I should look into it why some houses in certain neighborhoods are purple or tacky bright blue or even bright pink, must mean something other then there was a sale of paint.
Just like having shoes hanging off the wires, forgot what that means, either someone died there or you can find drugs in the area?

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

....
Just like having shoes hanging off the wires, forgot what that means, either someone died there or you can find drugs in the area?

Really? I thought it was for kids leaving school for the last time!  Hanging up their Boots (so to speak).

Mr. Fluffy, you lead a sheltered life! Just kidding, usually the shoes in the phone lines are found in areas where you wouldn;t wish to walk at night in. At least in the US that is...

Thanks for all the advice... just for the future investors who only have a weekend in Budapest, i've found the follow banks which open on Saturdays Might be useful to share for those who are interested! Pretty much only three choices: 1. Erste 2. OTP and 3. Bank of Granit.

West End

Erste
10am-2pm
http://westend.hu/uzletek/erste-bank?location=223

OTP
10am-6pm
http://westend.hu/uzletek/otp-bank?location=281

Bank of Granit
http://westend.hu/uzletek/granit-bank?location=238
9am-4pm

Arena Plaza

OTP
10am-2pm
http://www.arenaplaza.hu/en/uzlet/otp-bank/

Arkad

OTP
10am-2pm
http://www.arkadbudapest.hu/uzlet/157

Erste
10am-2pm
http://www.arkadbudapest.hu/uzlet/149

Hi everyone,

Me again! I'm heading to budapest next week to sort out the bank account. Any idea as a foreigner what sort of additional docs i need to bring with me? Obviously passport and ID but does any one know if there are any other things I should also bring with me. Just dont want to be caught off guard!

Also, any suggested for good places to exchange some HUF where I can get a good rate?

Thanks!

cckmcc wrote:

....

Also, any suggested for good places to exchange some HUF where I can get a good rate?

Thanks!

I think there isn't a lot of difference on exchange rates at banks but quite a difference at exchange bureaux.  No commission is not always the best deal.

You might want to consider opening accounts in foreign currency as well as HUF.   Then you can hedge your bets a bit.

Hello everyone again.... does any know what is a reasonable bargaining price for going back on property negotiations. Is there a range in percentage that is reasonable and not frowned upon?

Also, I know this has been asked before, but anyone know of a good lawyer they can recommend?

On the side, just for those who are interested in opening a bank account. No luck with OTP on weekends as their weekend service is closed. Erste Bank took in my details but also needed a working day to review it. I heard Granite bank which is an online bank opens accounts for people and does paper work via mail so that might be my choice.

cckmcc wrote:

Hello everyone again.... does any know what is a reasonable bargaining price for going back on property negotiations. Is there a range in percentage that is reasonable and not frowned upon?

Offer whatever you wish and what you think the property is worth. Just make it an honest offer.

Don't worry about offending anyone because an honest seller will not be offended by an honest offer. If you do offend the seller and the deal falls through, you probably did yourself a favor and dodged a bullet.

If you are really interested in the property, have the property appraised indirectly or directly. A direct professional appraisal will cost you, but will give you far more leverage. Typically, the "offer price" I have experienced is 40% or more above the appraised value. But, beware, have had sellers quote one price first to my wife on the phone, then when learned I (non-Hungarian) was in on the deal, they increased the price another 40%. I have walked away from more than one such shenanigans like that here. But it left me with the impression that property being offered directly to the foreign market may be priced at over 100% of its real local market value. But that is just my impression.

And do note: if the seller is stubborn, do not expect to get much of a reduction. And do not hesitate to walk away from a deal you think is over priced.

  - One property the owner wanted 6 Million Forint, I offered 5 Million, they refused. I walked away.

  - Another property the owner wanted 12 Million, I offered 10 Million and was also refused and again I walked away.

  - One property I knew sold for 500,000 Forint a year earlier. I asked if the owner wanted to sell. I offered 1 Million. He wanted 3 Million (ridiculous). I walked away. The property is still for sale (8 years later).

  - One property, the owner wanted 8 Million on the phone with my wife, I go to look at it (one entire wall on the house had a huge crack and the entire wall was actually falling over), and suddenly the owner wanted 12 Million. I could not hold back, I literally laughed out loud because the property was not even worth close to 8 Million, much less 12 Million (my wife was not pleased by laugh.... oh, well -- cultural differences). I did not even bother with a counter offer on that one.

cckmcc wrote:

No luck with OTP

FWIIW: I recently learned that OTP (at least my local branch) no longer cashes US Dollar checks/cheques, which was the only reason I opened US Dollar account there. To consider if anyone here needs such a service. So I will be closing that US Dollar account at OTP.

Anyone know of a good handyman /specialist that can look at water stain /moulding issues in an apartment? Main concern is we dont know what the cause is...and need it checked.

cckmcc wrote:

Anyone know of a good handyman /specialist that can look at water stain /moulding issues in an apartment? Main concern is we dont know what the cause is...and need it checked.

Don't bother with a handyman. Call a proper professional.

If the water stain is on an interior wall or celling call a plumber. Either you or your neighbors may have/had a broken pipe now or in the past.

If the stain is on an exterior wall, call a building contractor, as that is probably water coming in from the outside for some reason.

If the mold is on the stain, then the problem is probably current and ongoing. If the mold is more over the entire apartment or in a room or two, that is a more generic problem. Consider a dehumidifier.

Unfortunately, leaks and mold are not uncommon. Many buildings are old and were not maintained for decades. That is one of the reason the prices are what they are. You always get what you pay for..... 

Thanks, I agree with your analysis, would you have any ideas where I can find these services?

I have no experience with flats but I have rising damp in internal walls because there is no damp course. There is a damp course in the external walls but not the internal ones. I suppose in a block of flats that would only affect the ground floor. One solution to that kind of damp is dry lining but obviously it does make the room smaller. I used to live in northern Scotland where a lot of the older houses are built of granite rubble and nearly all such houses are dry lined. One treatment for rising damp is to remove the plaster from the affected brickwork, apply several coats of bitumen paint then re-plaster.

cckmcc wrote:

Anyone know of a good handyman /specialist that can look at water stain /moulding issues in an apartment? Main concern is we dont know what the cause is...and need it checked.

Been through this sort of thing multiple times.  You can do some things now yourself to experiment before getting the professionals in.

The cause of damp and mould inside is usually pretty obvious with some basic analysis.  Outside walls, water splashing on the outside or running down the walls (bad guttering) or bridging of the damp course or the ground level being too high, leaking pipes or bad insulation (leads to a temperature gradient and condensation).

In the case of damp in walls on the ground, capillary action will suck up water a maximum of 1m.  If you look at old buildings in HU, you can usually see a line of damp, maximum 1m from the ground.  The 1m is because the weight of the water inside the wall will not let it rise further.

If there's nothing outside, it's probably caused by poor ventilation.   Typically it occurs in the winter when people are inside (perspire 1-2L water per person/day), there are drying clothes and the windows are closed to keep the heat in (it's been very cold recently).   If you have resources, buy a tumble dryer with a water collecting feature, drain or vent it outside (not inside).  Or put the laundry in a room, close the door and open the window. 

Dehumidifier is not really a long term solution because it will use a large amount of electricity and not really solve the problem.  If determined, consider getting an air conditioner as this will also dehumidify as well.  If you get a heat pump version, you can use it for heating AND get a discount on electricity through a kind of "off peak" meter.  You need papers and a professional installer will do the paperwork for you.   We recently installed airco units throughout our house build with air heat pump feature and we get cheaper electricity for it.  It's pretty effective for heating, even down to about -15 C.

If you have to plaster walls and they are "mud" or "rubble" you should use lime plaster  (HU: gipszmáz).  This is breathable and will let damp evaporate. If you use off the shelf concrete based plaster, it'll trap the damp in the walls and make it worse.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Dehumidifier is not really a long term solution because it will use a large amount of electricity and not really solve the problem.

If the humidity is significant, then this a valid point.

Then a heat recovery ventilator setup, as you suggested, is indeed to consider instead. They are reasonably cheap to run and not only retain heat in modern sealed spaces but also cycle the air through the building, so you are less prone to things like sick building syndrome (after all, one respires out not just water, adding internal humidity issues, but also CO2 which may actually be raised to significantly detrimental levels in a well sealed modern building). So  win-win.

cckmcc wrote:

Thanks, I agree with your analysis, would you have any ideas where I can find these services?

I know both a plumber and a contractor, but neither speak English and neither is in Budapest.

I hope someone else here can give you some leads. Else, there is always Google.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Dehumidifier is not really a long term solution because it will use a large amount of electricity and not really solve the problem.

If the humidity is significant, then this a valid point.

Then a heat recovery ventilator setup, as you suggested, is indeed to consider instead. They are reasonably cheap to run and not only retain heat in modern sealed spaces but also cycle the air through the building, so you are less prone to things like sick building syndrome (after all, one respires out not just water, adding internal humidity issues, but also CO2 which may actually be raised to significantly detrimental levels in a well sealed modern building). So  win-win.

Yup, there's a problem with modern buildings these days with damp because there's no ventilation. Eco passive houses usually have heat exchangers which suck out the heat before dumping the air outside and bringing new air in so they do two functions - ventilate and energy saving. 

An airco unit will just blow the air around inside and drain the condensate outside. It will not actually ventilate.  For that you need the heat exchanger/vent system.

In my own house, we have to have a vent for our wood burner.  If we didn't have the vent then we could also get damp because the entire place is heavily insulated, multiple seals on doors and triple glazing.  No significant air gets in other than through the air vent for the heating.  Obviously operating a open flame heater in a room without ventilation is just asking for a trip to the morgue.  In fact, it'd be wise to open the windows a bit even burning wood.   Needs to have enough draught to get the fire to suck the nasties up the chimney.

As I said, in this case, best thing is to experiment with opening the windows regularly and get some air through and try a month of putting the laundry outside when the weather improves. It worked for us in our rented apartment to an extent (our damp there was caused by poor insulation and high temperature gradient - cold walls/warm air = condensation = mould).

Thanks for all the info.

Ive been reading online about deposit amounts and generally it's 10% to lock the property down. I've been told by my agent that if I put a higher deposit i can probably get a lower overall price. Is it common for people to offer higher deposits in Budapest? Also, do people pay for this in cash or via bank transfers.

cckmcc wrote:

Thanks for all the info.

Ive been reading online about deposit amounts and generally it's 10% to lock the property down. I've been told by my agent that if I put a higher deposit i can probably get a lower overall price. Is it common for people to offer higher deposits in Budapest? Also, do people pay for this in cash or via bank transfers.

I don't think it's wise to put more on the deposit other than the usual amount.   I do not see why a higher deposit makes any difference to the end price.   You can actually decide not to have any deposit at all.

And certainly no payments in cash as you need traceability to a specific person. 

In any case, deposits are held by the lawyer in their client account and not paid to the other side.

cckmcc wrote:

I've been told by my agent that if I put a higher deposit i can probably get a lower overall price.

Be cautious dealing with agents that suggest you do something like that "for a better price".

cckmcc wrote:

Also, do people pay for this in cash or via bank transfers.

I bought four properties. I have done both bank transfer and paid in cash.

Cash is not really a problem, except carrying all that cash around.... which can be a problem. It is "better" to do a bank transfer, but it really adds little in ways or means of traceability to the owner if you are legally buying a property.

In other words, sure, some people have "bought" places that were not actually owned by the "seller". Yes, the buyer was scammed. But the buyer probably did not follow required legal procedures or apply some common precautions.

Here are a few things to consider when buying:

1) All legal property sales have to be done by a lawyer/solicitor. And so all paperwork for the property must be presented and verified by that lawyer. So you know exactly who the seller is and if the seller is legit and the real owner. Only deal with the real owner, not a relative of the owner.

2) The buyer should pick their own lawyer, not a lawyer suggested by the seller or agent (this is to remove any possible scam between the seller/agent and the lawyer).

3) Payment in cash should be done in the presence of your lawyer and only to the person listed as owning the property you are buying in person. That is, no "proxies" for the property seller should be allowed to take the money. That is, do not believe that the "son" says their 98 year of mother can not come today so he can receive the money -- in that case do refuse to pay either cash or by bank transfer until the owner can be contacted directly. And maybe walk out of the deal. Something may be wrong.

4) If buying in cash, get a written signed receipt from the seller you paid in full and in cash. Your, competent, lawyer should already have prepared such a document on your behalf. If not, you may not have a competent lawyer.

Oddly, when I sell, I insist on bank transfer from the buyer. There are also ways someone can try to "scam" a large cash payment, and I want to avoid that possibility.

FWIIW, I suspect some sellers want cash to try to hide income from the tax man. But that is just my suspicion.

klsallee wrote:

FWIIW, I suspect some sellers want cash to try to hide income from the tax man. But that is just my suspicion.

The price is written in the purchase contract and impossible to not pay the tax otherwise than lying on the contract.  Any respectable lawyer would not engage in such dodgy practices. 

It's possible to split the payment into the house plus fittings.  With cash for the fittings.  But the amount for tax or saved is minimal.  It's hardly worth it and why should anyone do anyone else a favour like that?

The name entry in the land registry is definitive.  No-one else can act for the owner listed there.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

FWIIW, I suspect some sellers want cash to try to hide income from the tax man. But that is just my suspicion.

The price is written in the purchase contract and impossible to not pay the tax otherwise than lying on the contract.

"Impossible" is a bit idealistic in an imperfect world.

Sure.... All the paperwork has the details. But one then assumes transparent and efficient communication between one government office and another. Not sure things always work that way. And some people are willing to take the risk.

fluffy2560 wrote:

The name entry in the land registry is definitive.  No-one else can act for the owner listed there.

Sure.... in a perfect world, where one assumes everyone in the deal is legit. But this is an imperfect world. There are all sorts of con games and scams. And I was giving warning signals how not to become a victim.

klsallee wrote:

"Impossible" is a bit idealistic in an imperfect world.

It's impossible if one wants the correct result.  It'd need a conspiracy otherwise.

klsallee wrote:

Sure.... All the paperwork has the details. But one then assumes transparent and efficient communication between one government office and another. Not sure things always work that way. And some people are willing to take the risk.

In this instance, it's nicely stitched up.  I know for sure.    The land registry entry is changed when the contract is done.  The contracts are lodged with the land registry and the tax office is always informed and sends out the tax bills sometime after .  All purchasers of property get a tax number as well because they paid tax - they get tax registered whether they like it or not. They are remarkably - even bizarrely - efficient in land transactions.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

The name entry in the land registry is definitive.  No-one else can act for the owner listed there.

Sure.... in a perfect world, where one assumes everyone in the deal is legit. But this is an imperfect world. There are all sorts of con games and scams. And I was giving warning signals how not to become a victim.

Like I said, do not pay in cash, use banks for transactions, proper lawyers and their client accounts and always have proper contracts. 

The land registry system in Hungary is based on the German "Grundbuch" system.  If it's in the book with your name against it, you're the official owner.   Same in Austria and probably Switzerland (German bits anyway maybe).

It's possible (even online in HU) to get the land registry entry for any piece of land which shows the owners, liens/encumbrances and so on - public records.  We've always got the records on our property purchases to see who or what we are dealing with.   Any lawyer will look that stuff up and take copies of the sellers ID cards to verify who they are.

Thanks for all the replies.

Just one quick check. Once we sign the contracts I pay the deposit correct?

The changing of the name in the land registry, does that happen after I sign the contract as well? I.e. I've already signed and paid my deposit and THEN I go to land registry to get it changed to my name.

Also, do all agent work in the interest of the seller only? I presume yes since they get paid the fees from the seller.

Sorry.. and a follow up. Is there an issue if ive signed the contract, paid the deposit but go to land registry the following day (or week) to get the place moved to my name.

I'm just not sure of the steps and if anything is time critical. Obviously paying money should only happen after I've got a contract in hand.

And do people have any specific general terms they set on the seller normally? I.e. none of the existing installed pieces in the apartment can be moved out (e.g. heating systems or shelves etc that isnt furniture).

cckmcc wrote:

Sorry.. and a follow up. Is there an issue if ive signed the contract, paid the deposit but go to land registry the following day (or week) to get the place moved to my name.

I'm just not sure of the steps and if anything is time critical. Obviously paying money should only happen after I've got a contract in hand.

And do people have any specific general terms they set on the seller normally? I.e. none of the existing installed pieces in the apartment can be moved out (e.g. heating systems or shelves etc that isnt furniture).

You do not go to the land registry, the lawyer does it for you.     If you use a lawyer you do not have to worry about all these things.

Once you've signed the contract, you pay the deposit but you usually pay the entire amount within say 15 days.  It's by arrangement.  If you do not pay the entire amount you forfeit your deposit.    The deposit is held by the lawyer.  You do not pay it to the owner.

You DO want specific terms in your contract.  Things like the built in stuff are considered part of the house. 

However, if the owner is selling an older property where say their relatives were living, the almost inevitably leave huge piles of rubbish you have to clear out.   We wanted it "cleaned out". Our sellers eventually said they didn't have a way to clear it out in time so I just said, OK, I'll do it because I wanted to move on faster.  In the end we had 3 skips (containers) to take all that stuff away and it took us three days over a period of weeks to remove it all.   But we wanted it stripped bare - kitchen, heaters, flooring - all out.   That's because the builders were coming.

cckmcc wrote:

Thanks for all the replies.

Just one quick check. Once we sign the contracts I pay the deposit correct? .

cckmcc wrote:

The changing of the name in the land registry, does that happen after I sign the contract as well? I.e. I've already signed and paid my deposit and THEN I go to land registry to get it changed to my name.

No, it gets changed when you've paid for it.  Takes about 3 weeks but the actual ownership is yours from the time of payment.  There and then.

It is of course dependent on the sellers fulfilling their obligations.   They can give you the keys when you've paid but in theory you shouldn't make any changes until the land registry mods are confirmed. 

If you are an EU/EEA citizen, you do not need permission to buy (it says you are exempt in the contract).  Any other nationalities need permission but it's rarely withheld.

cckmcc wrote:

Also, do all agent work in the interest of the seller only? I presume yes since they get paid the fees from the seller.

Payment to the agent is by the sellers.  You are not involved at all with the agent other than first contact.   Beware the agents. They will totally lie through their teeth to get you to buy. 

Anecdote(s):

1) One area of land we looked at, we were told the water was easy to bring to the site.  By luck, some of our former neighbours had moved to an area nearby and as was discovered by asking them, there was no access to water on that land.  Getting utilities on to land is majorly expensive and can take odd twists. 

2) We got told by Telekom there's no cable to our property but I can actually see it sticking out the ground!  Someone changed the name of the street 10 years ago but no-one told Telekom. They found it by the old street name.

Thanks.  Is it common for sellers to not have an agent?

I have a buyer agent but I'm wondering if my agent is acting on both sides as I've never seen the sellers agent. I'm also using the lawyer of my agent. Any issues people seen on this? I think  they've been helping foreigner invest for a while and I don't think they're out there to scam. But I'm just a little concerns and trying to be a bit cautious.

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's impossible if one wants the correct result.  It'd need a conspiracy otherwise.

So you never had someone here say, basically, "Oh, don't worry about that issue, my (some relation) works in the (name of office)."?  I have. So.... not a perfect world here.

Also little things, like, "Can you make that two payments by bank transfer, one for X amount and one for Y amount?", and then they turn to the lawyer, and speak in the local language, to put down the price as just X amount to be registered in the land office (a conversation the buyer does not "hear" not speaking the language). Plenty of way to try (all illegal) tax avoidance scams.

In other words, buying property.... anywhere.... has risks.

fluffy2560 wrote:

You do not go to the land registry, the lawyer does it for you.     If you use a lawyer you do not have to worry about all these things.

Except worrying that the "lawyer" is not a con man. And does not take the money and run.

And a well organized con even can get signature rights to the property owner's bank account (not difficult if the owner is elderly and is "talked into" signing something ... yes is can happen), never do any real property transfer, and just drain off the payments from the account, and then disappear. So, bank transfers may be "safer" they are not 100% safe. Sure, this is all very unusual and unlikely*. But.... can happen in an imperfect world. 

*But I know of at least one case where "someone else's name" was listed on a person's financially related paperwork though the owner insists they never put that name there.